The Portable Hole/Bag of holding warhead, as an siege weapon

[Lassan]

http://i.imgur.com/Gfq4q.jpg

Had a friend on FB post this today. I had some very entertaining thoughts on said arrow after seeing it.

First, the components are EXPENSIVE. At typical srd prices, a portable hole is 20k GP, and the smallest bag of holding, is 2.5k GP No smart or sane GM should compromise on those prices "because the items are smaller" That thing can one-shot too many scary things for it to cost less.

Second, having a non-conventional arrowhead would give it a to-hit penalty. Not relevant if you hit 'close enough' very relevant, if you are say 15-20 feet off.
(Any sane/evil GM will make this a possibility with such a round)

Third, if one uses the 'official' Wizards of the coast exchange rate of 1Gp = $20 USD, that round costs about $450K in real world value. That puts it into 'military grade' as far as explosive weaponry goes, compare the tomahawk missiles 1.5 million price tag, the hellfire's $115K USD, and the Javelin's $145K USD pricetags.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-do-smart-weapons-cost-the-military/

(for reference and comparison, please keep any discussions on said weapons comparative effectiveness and value in D&D terms, rather than the real-world politics/warfare.)

Fourth, said warhead, is likely to be LESS effective in overall effectiveness than any of the above missiles, as well as having inferior range, accuracy, and "bang per buck" value. It also has the nasty 'side effect' of ripping apart space time.

Fifth, It's only real edge, is that there isn't much of ANYTHING that can deal with the fabric of space-time being ripped up around it. Damage from the other missiles could be mitigated by fire protection effects, damage reduction effects, and if you can convince your DM that shrapnel counts as "projectiles" a Protection from Arrows spell

Which leads me to my final point.

I think that the Portable hole/Bag of holding warhead, is just dumb to use on ordinary arrows.

Sure you can kill one guy, but that's a really cost-inefficient way to kill JUST ONE GUY.

On the other end, it's the EXACT kind of weapon that would be great in siege warfare.

Imagine "ye olde D&D evil empire"loading such rounds unto Ballistas.

The range would be better. They are "ye olde D&D evil empire", so they should be able to afford LOTS of them.

They could then fire dimension-tearing ballista rounds at immobile fortified structures like castles, fortresses and keeps, in order to create breaches in their walls.

That negates the "accuracy" issue.

The gains from looting entire nations that are helpless against their siege technology would certainly justify their expense.

In a pinch, they could also be volley fired at big scary things, like dragons.


So, all that being said,

What are everyone's thoughts on the viability, and potential uses of the Portable Hole/Bag of Holding as an balista-based siege weapon in a "generic fantasy land" near you?

[Elandris Kajar]

If it opens a space-time rift in the breach, what good will that do you?

Unless you used it to destroy the tops of the walls so they cannot fire back.

The breach would be an effective barrier for the defenders. What if you hit your own walls on purpose?
Just try rushing our "wall-less" castle. Mwahaha

[ellindsey]

Repeated usages of this weapon will weaken the fabric of reality, permanently crack the walls between the planes, especially if you keep using it in the same place. This attracts attention. Extraplanar monsters may start coming through the cracks, causing worse problems than what you used the weapon to get rid of in the first place. Hounds of Tindalos and worse things. The site of a battle fought with these weapons may eventually become permanently uninhabitable, or the site of horrible rites by cults trying to widen the cracks to bring ancient gods through.

There are also powerful extraplanar creatures of Law whose sole reason for existing is to enforce the boundaries between planes. (Lhaksharut Inevitables in pathfinder for example) Repeated use of this tactic is going to draw them to come by and politely request that you knock it off.

[Telonius]

You could enchant a ballista into a +1 Metalline ballista for 18,000gp and turn all of its ammunition into Adamantine bolts. It would take a little longer to break through, but would probably be cheaper in the long run.

[Renen]

Just get the cheaper artifact version of the portable hole

[Dusk Eclipse]

Relic, not artefact. [nitpicking for the sake of it]

[Lassan]

Thanks for the responses! @Elandris Kajar. I have two objections to your argument.
First, by the wording I read on the Portable hole/Bag of Holding interaction, it sounds like it creates TEMPORARY rifts in space time, as it makes no mention of forming permanent "gates" to the astral plane on it's rules write up.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Portable_Hole

However, even if a particular GM ruled that they did form "permanent" rifts, I'm pretty sure it does not take a lot of ranks in "architecture and engineering, to realize, that replacing the "support" pillars and load bearing walls of a building, with dimensional rifts, often enough, will make them eventually fall down.

If a Gm took that interpretation of this effect, your other uses of the device do however sound pretty fun :)

@ellindsey That sounds like a pretty good reason to not temper with the forces of reality lightly! Considering the expense involved, and the nature of the weapon, that would be a great way to either have a nasty 'surprise' for PC's who are up to no good in your campaign, or alternately have "unexpected allies" show up in a fight against "ye olde D&D evil empire" Thanks!

@Telonius That's a also great reason for why this form of attack, is not standard operating procedure for "ye olde D&D evil empire", in that a cost effective alternative exists. That means if you felt the need to have this tactic be used, it would likely be in a high-powered campaign where a precious few rounds more to break things mean the difference between victory and defeat.

I'm also getting the sense, that this tactic would really only be feasable for a evil empire that had a lot of high-level casters, a magitek flare, a habit of slaying gods, and a really, really overpowered, epic level insane emporer god/king at the helm. Who else would have the resources, the moxie, and the power to take so many needless, and stupid risks?

@Renen The alternatives I found in the Magic Item Compendium for the Portable hole, are the "relic" item the enveloping pit (3600GP CL 20 to create). and the portable foxhole (5K GP, CL 11 to create)

Of the two, the portable foxhole requires DM fiat to use (as it does not specifically state it operates as a portable hole). A DM would be free to rule that it does, and this would greatly reduce the cost of producing these weapons.

The other, the "enveloping pit" has a great price point, but requires a CL of 20, which is 8 higher than the portable hole's and 9 more than the portable foxhole. It however has the edge, that evil creatures attuned to the patron god of Kobolds, Kurtulmak would have some extra utility out of the items. That being said, it would also indicate that a high level kobold cleric was the one producing the items.

So, how about this?

We stick the ideas together, and wind up with.....

A 30th level Kobold cleric, has assumed the title of "god-king". With his cabal of high level (18-22) kobold clerics producing enveloping pits and other materials of war, and an host of enslaved wizards (cl 8-14) producing portable foxholes and other destructive artifacts, he constructs an array of siege weaponry capable of challenging the gods themselves. While his standard siege armaments are +1 Metalline ballista, to conserve ammo, on particularly "pesky" settlements he opens up barrages of reality destroying rounds. He also indulges in the Kobold tradition of making traps and nasty surprises, as he has no need to regard the lives of his own minions, his keep is littered with traps that say "reflex save, or be sucked to the astral plane". He also uses a "demolition charge" variant of the weapon in order to create interior structural breaches in vaults, dungeons and mines, which allows him to pilfer even the best defended artifacts of the realms. This pisses off the gods of law and order, not to mention scares many of the 'evil' gods who are terrified of the changes to the 'balance of power' but he and his cult have prepared means and stratagems to slay even the gods using the artifacts that they have gathered during their military campaigns.

The part of epic level PC's must find a way, to defeat the mad, insane ambitions of the god-king of the kobolds. While doing so they have two major threats.

1. The magic artifacts, sheer suicidal cunning, and raw weight of numbers of the Kobold armies, and enslaved humanoid servants that the level 30 Kobold god-king commands.
2. The one party member who insists up and down that "kobolds are harmless" and "We fight kobolds at level 1, there is no way they can be a threat at level 25"

:)

Additional thoughts/comments/criticisms?

[Extra Anchovies]

Huh. That image in the OP gets it very wrong. Putting a hole into a bag doesn't destroy a 10-foot radius sphere. It just takes all creatures within 10 feet and deposits them on the Astral Plane. So this "trick" (calling it a trick feels wrong, because of how useless it is) is kind of the worst demolition tool ever.

Question: what happens to the gate to the astral plane that's opened by putting the hole into the bag? Does it stay open? Does it immediately close? The DMG isn't clear.


Just get the cheaper artifact version of the portable hole


Relic, not artefact. [nitpicking for the sake of it]

Destroying an enveloping pit is a really good way to get a deity mad at you. Kurtulmak is intermediate, but if you're at the point that you can't rip holes in reality without items, you're gonna get curbstomped.

[Bronk]

Hmm, this wouldn't work in 3.5 as an arrow, because:

"Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost."

It might work as a really, really long spear though.

[Elandris Kajar]

I can see how this would work better if the rift was temporary, but I am not sure that is the case (the text is ambiguous on this part), but you could always say they had a ritual/spell/process to close it. If you were sieging a castle I think that it would be not all that effective. It simply takes too big a gap to tumble down a stone wall.
Also, since it is plane shifting, not destruction, this is ineffective against many creatures.
Campaign sounds interesting, though!


@Bronk: how do you figure? I don't see the correlation here.

[Extra Anchovies]

Again, this arrow doesn't kill anyone. It just moves them to the Astral plane. If you're at the point where you can use these rift-making arrows, your enemies are at the point where sending them to the Astral plane is just giving them an easy way to escape the fight. They'll be back later, and they'll bring their friends.

[Elandris Kajar]

...your enemies are at the point where sending them to the Astral plane is just giving them an easy way to escape the fight. They'll be back later, and they'll bring their friends.
He is talking about it for sieging, which would reduce the frequency of this occurrence, but yes I think this is a design flaw.

[Extra Anchovies]

He is talking about it for sieging, which would reduce the frequency of this occurrence, but yes I think this is a design flaw.

It's almost entirely useless for sieging.


If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

Only the bag, the hole, and creatures within 10 feet are drawn through the gate. Objects are unaffected.

[Elandris Kajar]

Only the bag, the hole, and creatures within 10 feet are drawn through the gate. Objects are unaffected.

Good point. I missed that.

[Lassan]

@Extra anchovies.

You bring up a very good point, by the "strict wording" objects would not get sucked into the vortex. From a RAW written perspective, not only is that 100% right, but it also eliminates the need for further speculation.

however, for a GM who's up for some "house-ruling" that's a trivial concern. You just use your narrative powers and say "and behold, while the DMG did not say this, it sucks in material objects too" and be done with it.

I don't see much room for further argument on that point. Either you are the kind of GM who would say that, or you aren't. Decide for yourself, and act accordingly.

As for their use in demolition, if the point, is to collapse the wall, you have someone invest ranks in architecture and engineering, and send a few shots to the 'right spot'

If the point is to BREACH the wall, so that your armies can enter their defenses unimpeded, all you need to do, is open a hole at a spot where their wall is only a few feet thick.

Like say an arrow slit?

Or, since apparently, castle walls used to range between 7 and 30 feet in thickness.

http://medievalcastles.stormthecastle.com/essays/all-about-castle-walls.htm

sending a few rounds in most walls would cause a "breach" nearly 100% of all keeps/fortresses. Even if they didn't collapse the wall, like i said, the job is to get your troops inside the wall building a new door, with 2-5 shots of a ballista seems like a speedy alternative to lots of catapult fire.

As for pissing off Kurtulmak by destroying his artifacts....

it's a relic, but if we want to compare it to a artifact, we have to consider that artifacts are very, very hard to destroy. It's quite possible that this would not destroy them, but rather "moves" things to the astral plane.

The real limiter, is actually that relics are typically limited to 6 or so in number . I doubt that even a kobold god-king would be stupid enough to SHOOT those at his enemies because retrieving them mid battle from the astral plane doesn't seem like the best use for them.

I'll officially grant you that point. No need to piss off your patron god!

So the kobolds would likely use the fox hole spell instead, with the GM house-ruling that it works the same way as a portable hole, or they could use normal portable holes, and the GM saying "these guys are LOADED with GP."

In case anyone still is assuming this is an "adventure's tactic," no, this is a tool of mass warfare. This is not "PC" stuff, this is "big bad, evil army stuff"

Big bad's don't deal with high level threats by plane shifting the away. I proposed a level 30 kobold cleric would be using this warhead as a key component to his engine of war, but not as his entire arsenal. In such a campaign, he would likely be using smaller hand carried "demolition charges" of this type to bypass vault protections (assuming that the hole from the astral rift removes objects, and that it is temporary) allowing him to steal a lot of swank magic items, from a lot of swank hordes, while bypassing a lot of scary traps and defenses.

By arming his high level troops with the best gear imaginable, and giving his hordes of suicidal kobold soldiers lots of way of exploding, I tend to think that the only high-level threats he would need to deal with personally would be epic monsters, epic level adventurers and gods. And while in vanilla D&D his god Kurtulmak, is an intermediate diety, as a GM if I were running a campaign with this kind of thing going on, he would probably get an upgrade to "greater" as his followers increased in population and worship to him, and as his rival gods lost territory, and power. That would allow crazy kobold king guy plenty of chances to off small gods, and weaken others so that his god, could slay/terrify/threaten the other gods.

Since kobolds aren't known to be "nice" when they are winning,

picture ravaged nations, destroyed space-time, all free peoples of the world enslaved, gods dying left and right.

This would definitely be more of a "if you lose, it's the end of the multiverse as we know it" kind of campaign.

[Krobar]

Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to buy a few scrolls of Wish and wish for 20 foot diameter holes to appear in the walls, or something like that?

[Bronk]

@Bronk: how do you figure? I don't see the correlation here.

I just mean that there aren't any rules for damaging ammunition. The ammunition if it hits, may damage the target, then it's either destroyed outright or rendered useless... The contraption would either fly into pieces ineffectually or just stop working. There's just going to have to be a few extra DM houserules to cover a missile that hits, collapses in stages, and so on, is all.

I mentioned spears for two reasons. First, as a thrown weapon they aren't destroyed on impact, so there's one less houserule to worry about. Second, if you were to use this hand held, you'd have to make one at least 15 feet long so that the wielder wouldn't be affected by their own 10 foot radius astral rift.

[atemu1234]

Repeated usages of this weapon will weaken the fabric of reality, permanently crack the walls between the planes, especially if you keep using it in the same place. This attracts attention. Extraplanar monsters may start coming through the cracks, causing worse problems than what you used the weapon to get rid of in the first place. Hounds of Tindalos and worse things. The site of a battle fought with these weapons may eventually become permanently uninhabitable, or the site of horrible rites by cults trying to widen the cracks to bring ancient gods through.

There are also powerful extraplanar creatures of Law whose sole reason for existing is to enforce the boundaries between planes. (Lhaksharut Inevitables in pathfinder for example) Repeated use of this tactic is going to draw them to come by and politely request that you knock it off.

Wow. This is sounding like a nuke metaphor.

[jiriku]

Terrible engineering. The faceted surfaces will damage the arrow's flight characteristics.

But seriously, while this is funny, a reasonable DM could certainly permit it to work. It's highly awesome and it's expensive enough that no one is getting away with anything. In fact, a high-level character has many, many more efficient ways of demolishing fortifications -- the only real advantage of this arrow is that you can pass it off to a low-level archer so that you as the high-level caster don't personally need to be at the battle taking the standard action to create the effect.

One of the problems with D&D is that castles themselves are low-level challenges, and not very difficult ones at that. To really function as defensive fortifications, they need support by high-level abilities, but there are VERY few spells and magical items that improve stationary defenses. And most of those simply buff the hardness and hit points of a defense; they don't make it more difficult to bypass it or attack across it. In fact, it is relatively trivial for a single tier 1 caster leveled to the mid-teens to simply demolish an entire fortification. I think a cleric, druid, or wizard of 12th - 15th level could probably reduce a medieval castle to rubble in half an hour or less.