Are you tracking ammunition?

[Raphite1]

Most of my experience has been with Pathfinder, but I'm about to DM my first 5th Edition game.

In my Pathfinder games, we never bothered keeping track of arrows/bolts used, unless it was a special kind of ammunition, expensive ammo for guns, or a rare situation that would cause ammunition to be significantly limited or unavailable. It just seemed like an unnecessary hassle, especially since most of our damage-dealers preferred melee, and ranged weapons were usually used by casters who weren't attacking every turn anyway.

But, I'm thinking about requiring archers to track their ammo for my 5e game. Unlike in Pathfinder, they get +ability to damage rolls, and as a result the limitation of ammo availability seems to be their primary disadvantage over melee characters.

What do you think? Does tracking ammo just add an annoying fiddly detail to 5e, or is it important for game balance (and just as importantly, fun)?

[JNAProductions]

I'd vote for annoying hassle. Archers are good, melee fighters are good, everyone is all around pretty good. No need to really do it.

[zinycor]

If my players want to keep track on the ammunition, fine on them.

[HoarsHalberd]

Most of my experience has been with Pathfinder, but I'm about to DM my first 5th Edition game.

In my Pathfinder games, we never bothered keeping track of arrows/bolts used, unless it was a special kind of ammunition, expensive ammo for guns, or a rare situation that would cause ammunition to be significantly limited or unavailable. It just seemed like an unnecessary hassle, especially since most of our damage-dealers preferred melee, and ranged weapons were usually used by casters who weren't attacking every turn anyway.

But, I'm thinking about requiring archers to track their ammo for my 5e game. Unlike in Pathfinder, they get +ability to damage rolls, and as a result the limitation of ammo availability seems to be their primary disadvantage over melee characters.

What do you think? Does tracking ammo just add an annoying fiddly detail to 5e, or is it important for game balance (and just as importantly, fun)?

The biggest disadvantage over melee characters is disadvantage in melee combat and smaller damage die and vulnerability to cover. Money is so plentiful after a certain point that ammunition tracking is more likely to make it less fun for everyone. Even if ranged had no disadvantages compared to melee, when I'm playing melee I don't care about being outclassed a great deal. But I would care if 10 minutes a session was devoted to pointless book keeping. I think archers should just buy some arrows or get some arrows and then forget about adjudicating arrows unless you're deliberately doing a scene where resources are meant to be running low.

[Kurt Kurageous]

For years I never tracked, just made players rebuy their quiver of 20 mundane every mission. With wealth this is nothing, and it makes things accountable. Unless you had someone who fired 5x/turn...

And unless I want to count them. Long range patrol kinda stuff with no chance to rebuy.

[Shining Wrath]

Right now I am tracking ammo for my DM PC (only ammo user in party). At higher levels it will become a waste of time.

[KorvinStarmast]

Right now I am tracking ammo for my DM PC (only ammo user in party). At higher levels it will become a waste of time. You can presume that after combat, archers recover most arrows and keep the good ones. That is one of those "standard SOP things" a character does like taking a poop in the woods* when the party is adventuring in the woods.

* = No DC check unless character hasn't had enough fiber in their diet.

[MrConsideration]

No, because it's tedious and archery isn't better than melee - there's no need for it to have a boring weakness (buy more arrows now for no reason!). Noone repairs their weapons and armour (and most mundane armour would be scrap by the end of any adventure) because scial encounters without any drama like buying a new pair of socks are really boring and a waste of time.

Taken to a radical level - my group doesn't track XP or non-magical treasure either.

[mr_odd]

Here's the question you need to ask: "Why?" Why would you want them to track it? Why would you not want them to track it? That should be the answer to your thoughts.

[Raphite1]

Here's the question you need to ask: "Why?" Why would you want them to track it? Why would you not want them to track it? That should be the answer to your thoughts.

I'd want them not to track it in order to streamline things and remove a bookkeeping annoyance.

I'd want them to track it if rationing ammo (20 arrows in a quiver?) was important for balance (making sure other characters aren't feeling useless) or could give archers fun tactical choices, like choosing when to unleash a few volleys and when to switch to melee or utility. And if the fun provided thereby would be worth the hassle.

It's sounding to me like others haven't felt that "infinite arrows" has been unbalancing, so I'm thinking I'll just leave it up to the individual players for most situations. If it'll be fun for them to track it and deal with the consequences, then great. If not, seems like no harm no foul.

[Ralanr]

When I use it I do. But it's only from the roll20 campaign I on and off join since they ask for weight in inventory.

I just do it cause I don't like infinite arrows. I don't expect or care about others doing it.

[Ruslan]

the limitation of ammo availability seems to be their primary disadvantage over melee characters.
No, the primary disadvantage is the fact that ranged only have access to 1d8 weapons and melee have access to 2d6 weapons.
Secondary disadvantages are: the fact that ranged characters can't make opportunity attacks, being affected by cover, and taking Disadvantage when there's an enemy in melee.

This is not to say ranged is worse than melee. It has good things going for it, and is about on par. And even if there are minor imbalances, tracking ammo is certainly not the solution that will suddenly make it balanced.


What do you think? Does tracking ammo just add an annoying fiddly detail to 5e, or is it important for game balance (and just as importantly, fun)?Annoying and fiddly, yes. Not important for game balance, and most certainly not important for fun.

[ThermalSlapShot]

No.

And once a PC reaches level 8 they don't even need ammo for bows (this works for string instruments). They just need to pluck the string and the target can take bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.


http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_movies_actors/film_images/kung_fu_hustle_harpists_attack.jpg

[Ramshack]

I don't make my players track ammo either. I make them spend money to refill arrows when in town, unless someone in the party has the mending cantrip, and then we just assume they collected arrows after an encounter and were fixed via mending. Though I have stolen some ones quiver before...

[Sigreid]

It depends. If there's a good chance they would run out before resupply I want them to track it. This really only applies to long adventures away from resupply points or mid to high level fighters who can empty a quiver in just a few rounds.

[D.U.P.A.]

This is unfair because of casters who can fire their cantrips at will without bothering to ammunition. Some like Warlock are even superior to weapon users

[Giant2005]

I used to track ammo until I realized it was costing me 2.5 copper a shot. Then I switched to my Rapier and never looked back.

[Sigreid]

This is unfair because of casters who can fire their cantrips at will without bothering to ammunition. Some like Warlock are even superior to weapon users

Well, the whole point of an adventure away from resupply points is tax player resources.

[Kidbuu51]

Yes I am track

[Slipperychicken]

I track it for my own characters. I keep a tally in parentheses next to a total number of ammunition, then deduct the tally from the total (and erase the tally) when convenient, which is usually at the end of a combat. It is a very easy way to track it, provided that one has space to keep said tally. This is the same way I record spell slots remaining and other limited-use abilities.


Of course, my DM couldn't care less. He sometimes makes noises about tracking rations, encumbrance, and lifestyle expense, but can never be bothered to enforce it. I suppose it can be important to resource-mangement, but it's just not a part of the game that we care about. If we have a cart or wagon along with a mount, we are considered able to carry whatever we care to load onto it, within reason (loading an entire couch along with seven creatures would get us some dirty looks). If getting food and ammunition is reasonably plausible, we are considered to be well-fed and stocked.

[MOLOKH]

I tell my players to keep track of their resources, but most of the time I don't bother checking. I'm pretty sure our Barbarian has thrown about a hundred javelins over the course of the campaign without bothering to buy them or pick them up after use.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I tell my players to keep track of their resources, but most of the time I don't bother checking. I'm pretty sure our Barbarian has thrown about a hundred javelins over the course of the campaign without bothering to buy them or pick them up after use.

Needing to say "I pick up my thrown weapons" after each battle is like needing to say "I use the restroom, number 2" during a short or long rest.

It is one of those things a DM should just assume and not worry about.

[WampDiesel]

We definitely track ammo. I even track things that aren't ammo that I have a lot of and might get left behind. Like pitons. Or daggers. Or rope. Or halflings.

[Zevox]

My group was tracking it at first, but once my Warlock picked up Mending, we basically stopped, and are just running with the assumption that we recover each arrow and he fixes any that are broken. Can't say it's affected anything, really, aside from there being less bookkeeping for our party Rogue and Ranger.

[D.U.P.A.]

Well, the whole point of an adventure away from resupply points is tax player resources.

But the thing is that caster do not need to resupply.

[Balain]

i would have them track magical ammo. Normal everyday arrows, why bother. I do like the buy arrows when next in town.

[Sigreid]

But the thing is that caster do not need to resupply.

And a wizard can't fall back to effective melee physical violence.

[Joe the Rat]

To the original question, I don't see tracking mundane ammunition as important to game balance, ranged vs. melee, and archers vs. casters.

Magic ammo is always tracked. Special ammo is tracked (silver arrows, arrows prepped for fire, etc). Thrown weapons are tracked as it is a small number of shots, unless you do have 10-20 daggers, in which case holy hell man. They are completely recoverable barring specific circumstances (goblin gets hit with dagger, then runs away; hit guard with thrown axe and they fall over parapet, etc.).

Currently, I only ask that the players have a unit (20) of ammo (and a few days rations, and a wine skin - or water skin if you must) purchased before heading out. This is mostly because resources have not been a critical issue to the game: they've been within 1-2 days of a town, in the spring, with fields and forests abound, and plenty of enemy archers. Having them restock after every "adventure" is not a bad idea. I will be having them do "downtime" living expenses.

Now, if resource management were relevant to a portion of an adventure (such as desert travel or long range exploration), I'd introduce RM for the challenge... and make it clear to players they will need to track this stuff and plan accordingly.

[lytokk]

I've always made it a point to track ammunition and other resources, even if the DM doesn't call for it. Heck, I even track my weight carried and what items are in what pouch or spot in my inventory. Its not necessary, but its always helped with my immersion in the game, keeping me in the mindset of an adventurer.

[-Jynx-]

And a wizard can't fall back to effective melee physical violence.

You're creating a double standard though.

There have been countless threads on how much stronger/versatile magic users (full casters mind you) compared to martial classes. Whether that's a large gap or a small gap is left up to the players/DM but tracking ammo for martial classes only produces another possible handicap for them in the future should they run out of ammo.

If you're willing to track ammo for archers, you should be willing to track magic components for spells under the same pretense of resource taxation. Remembering however that you can recover/make arrows fairly easy, but procuring/recovering magic components is likely a bit more difficult.

[Sjappo]

No, the primary disadvantage is the fact that ranged only have access to 1d8 weapons and melee have access to 2d6 weapons.
Secondary disadvantages are: the fact that ranged characters can't make opportunity attacks, being affected by cover, and taking Disadvantage when there's an enemy in melee.

This is not to say ranged is worse than melee. It has good things going for it, and is about on par. And even if there are minor imbalances, tracking ammo is certainly not the solution that will suddenly make it balanced.

Annoying and fiddly, yes. Not important for game balance, and most certainly not important for fun.
Wait, what? I don't recall penalties for firing into melee. Cover yes, but anything else no.

[LordVonDerp]

And a wizard can't fall back to effective melee physical violence.

Unless they punch people with lightning.

[Sigreid]

You're creating a double standard though.

There have been countless threads on how much stronger/versatile magic users (full casters mind you) compared to martial classes. Whether that's a large gap or a small gap is left up to the players/DM but tracking ammo for martial classes only produces another possible handicap for them in the future should they run out of ammo.

If you're willing to track ammo for archers, you should be willing to track magic components for spells under the same pretense of resource taxation. Remembering however that you can recover/make arrows fairly easy, but procuring/recovering magic components is likely a bit more difficult.

No double standard, each class has their strengths and weaknesses. An archer needs arrows, which only needs to be worried about if the players choose a course of action where it matters. Casters have a quiver called spell slots and once they run out they are slightly worse off than an archer who has to resort to sword. In both cases if they know they can't reliably resupply they may choose to mix up their options.

[PhantomRenegade]

Wait, what? I don't recall penalties for firing into melee. Cover yes, but anything else no.I think he's referring to ranged attacks getting dissadvantage if you are firing when you have a enemy within 5ft of you.


Regarding tracking Ammo, i've tried to do it for flavour on my characters, and then totally forgot, its mostly a non factor, archer's recover half their ammo after every combat so unless you plan on running your adventurers through really really long stretches of combat with no contact with civilization then it will just turn into senseless book-keeping.

[Ace Jackson]

I've been tracking my character's ammunition for my own amusement really. In nearly every encounter since the start of the campaign, I've fired my light crossbow exactly once per encounter. Never more, maybe once less, and twice with light on the bolts, once as a guiding bolt bluff, and once as a signal flare to start the fight. I'm going to see how long I can keep that up before I need to pay for more ammo, playing the first part of HotDQ right now, and we barely take the time to loot the cultists as we run around town, let alone recover and mend ammunition. We've been getting better about it, but that's only after something like four sessions into it.

Overall though, I agree with the prevailing notions, typical ammo shouldn't need to be tracked, at least not for long after level one if then. Specialized ammo should be tracked in comparison. But for the most part, just handle it however floats your boat. If you like the rationing, then ration, if not, then don't. This is a table by table issue, and one that really deserves individual player input.

[Mr.Moron]

Ammo is so cheap and so readily available, I just don't see the point. I've never asked players to track ammo on a regular basis. It comes up once in a while, say if they're captured and working from supplies taken off guards or the like but that's very much the exception. I've had a few players that like to track it regardless so more power to them I guess.

If I was doing some kind of survival game or other campaign where scant resources was meant to be a primary form of challenge and you can't just readily buy lots of quality ammo I might do it, otherwise it's just too fiddly.

[D.U.P.A.]

No double standard, each class has their strengths and weaknesses. An archer needs arrows, which only needs to be worried about if the players choose a course of action where it matters. Casters have a quiver called spell slots and once they run out they are slightly worse off than an archer who has to resort to sword. In both cases if they know they can't reliably resupply they may choose to mix up their options.

Cantrips have unlimited use, they do not run out of ammo, so you can carelessly shoot cantrips around all day with no cost, some uses would be checking for hidden gelatinous cubes, destroying an obstacle from afar and so on. They may be a little weaker than weapons, but they scale with character level, usually have a rider and in some cases, like light and knowledge cleric or warlock, you add the modifier, like in weapons, which in the end means more damage that would you do with a weapon.

[-Jynx-]

No double standard, each class has their strengths and weaknesses. An archer needs arrows, which only needs to be worried about if the players choose a course of action where it matters. Casters have a quiver called spell slots and once they run out they are slightly worse off than an archer who has to resort to sword. In both cases if they know they can't reliably resupply they may choose to mix up their options.

As obviously mentioned, Cantrips are unlimited use. So your eldritch blast warlock is belting off comparably strong shots without losing resources. You counting arrows should be the equivalent, like I said, or keeping up with spell components of your mages then. Because technically it's not about just having the spell slots, but also the materials necessary to use said spell. Both of which are silly anyways. Unless you just fancy shunning all ranged martial users in your campaign.

[Person_Man]

Keeping track of ammunition is a good idea if you are playing a gritty roguelike hidden map exploration game where careful resource management is paramount. (1st edition, most of the early boxed editions, and many 2nd edition games).

Such a game is basically impossible in 5E unless no one plays a spellcaster, or the spellcasters purposefully choose to avoid the most common cantrips and healing spells.

[Ralanr]

Unless they punch people with lightning.

But can they take the inevitable punch back?

[Zevox]

If you're willing to track ammo for archers, you should be willing to track magic components for spells under the same pretense of resource taxation. Remembering however that you can recover/make arrows fairly easy, but procuring/recovering magic components is likely a bit more difficult.
Spell components can explicitly be ignored if you simply have an arcane/divine/druidic focus, though - you literally don't even need to pretend to carry around minor components if you don't want to in this edition. The only exception are those with a gold value associated with them, and those should always be tracked anyway.

[Sigreid]

Spell components can explicitly be ignored if you simply have an arcane/divine/druidic focus, though - you literally don't even need to pretend to carry around minor components if you don't want to in this edition. The only exception are those with a gold value associated with them, and those should always be tracked anyway.

Exactly. And to continue with the rest of the questions:

I never force the players into amunition starved situations
They are free to take amunition from opponents, and do. They've not run out of arrows yet.
Amunition is only a potential problem for a mid to high level fighter archer who will empty a quiver in no time flat
A fighter low on amunition, even if built as an archer is a very capable melee combatant


But the big one is I don't Force players to take or not take any given action. When I DM I let them know what they know about the world and they exercise their free agency to do what they desire. If I were inclined to start with "You find yourself in the middle of the wilderness without a town for hundreds of miles" it would be unfair.

[HoarsHalberd]

I think he's referring to ranged attacks getting dissadvantage if you are firing when you have a enemy within 5ft of you.


Yup this, sorry should have made it clear I was talking about melee combat with you.

[PoeticDwarf]

Most of my experience has been with Pathfinder, but I'm about to DM my first 5th Edition game.

In my Pathfinder games, we never bothered keeping track of arrows/bolts used, unless it was a special kind of ammunition, expensive ammo for guns, or a rare situation that would cause ammunition to be significantly limited or unavailable. It just seemed like an unnecessary hassle, especially since most of our damage-dealers preferred melee, and ranged weapons were usually used by casters who weren't attacking every turn anyway.

But, I'm thinking about requiring archers to track their ammo for my 5e game. Unlike in Pathfinder, they get +ability to damage rolls, and as a result the limitation of ammo availability seems to be their primary disadvantage over melee characters.

What do you think? Does tracking ammo just add an annoying fiddly detail to 5e, or is it important for game balance (and just as importantly, fun)?

We don't do that, because you just don't want to shoot much. If you do, you have the whole story off, write down you have 39 arrows instead of 40, again.

[fishyfishyfishy]

My group just assumes it's part of the living expenses and we don't bother tracking quantity. Same goes for little mundane things like repairs on armor and clothing.

[GungHo]

No.

I also didn't in previous editions. Nor did I entertain tedious things like tracking spell components or rations.

I did sometimes introduce complications where people ran out of ammunition, spell components, or food due to the harshness of an environment, being imprisoned, or an extreme state of SOL. But generally, I just assume you have it. I also made the magic of bows/crossbows/slings a little more transitive to get over DR problems if the archer would be the only one penalized, but only for the "normal stuff". "Trick arrows" or something like that are more limited, and you don't have an unlimited supply of those, but again, if it makes dramatic sense and you want a grapple arrow to shoot across the canyon, I'm probably not going to crap on your idea, but I will also happily let you fall to your death when you fail your check.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd like to add that once a Bag of Holding is found the idea of resource consumption for a mid level party becomes pretty silly. Especially because it must be assumed that bandits and goblins and what have you don't eat dirt. Any encounter with roughly humanoid creatures produces some food and drink (be careful with the meat, as Merry and Pippin can tell you), and a stash of javelins and/ or arrows and / or bolts and the like.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd like to add that once a Bag of Holding is found the idea of resource consumption for a mid level party becomes pretty silly. Especially because it must be assumed that bandits and goblins and what have you don't eat dirt. Any encounter with roughly humanoid creatures produces some food and drink (be careful with the meat, as Merry and Pippin can tell you), and a stash of javelins and/ or arrows and / or bolts and the like.

When we're packing thousands of gold, do we really want to risk disease from eating whatever rotted garbage that passes for nutriment among goblins?