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Sacrieur
2015-07-07, 01:53 PM
Feat Study

You have mastered the theory, but have never put the principles into practice.

You may select two feats. You do not receive the benefits from these feats, but they count as prerequisites for other feats. You must still meet the feat prerequisites.

This feat may be taken multiple times. If a feat is selected twice, you gain the benefits of that feat.

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Came up with this as a way to fix the feat tax. It's a brand new home-brewed feat. Sorta like a meta-feat. I was told it was pretty awesome by my players, so I thought I should share it.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-07-07, 02:34 PM
While this might be nice in certain situations (Spring Attack jumps to mind), I can think of a lot more where the issue isn't "the feat I want is hidden behind two I don't" but "I need the benefits from three or four feats for my character to even function." (Archery needs Point-Blank, Precise, Rapid, and Dead Eye, usually. Dex melee needs Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Slashing/Piercing Grace.) That and "I need to keep taking identical feats for my numbers to stay relevant" (TWF, combat maneuver users, etc)

Deepbluediver
2015-07-07, 07:18 PM
Honestly I think homebrewing new/better feats is the way to go for a true fix, but it's also helped by giving all the melee classes more feats in general. I compromised on something that's a mix of the Fighter Bonus Feats and the Ranger's Fighting Styles and called them "Weapon Style Feats", with each class have access to thematically appropriate groups.

If you don't want to homebrew a lot, just give the Melee classes extra fighting feats based on their BAB.

AzraelX
2015-07-07, 07:40 PM
If a feat is selected twice, you gain the benefits of that feat.
I especially like this part. This would allow you to use feats as prerequisites, while still later being able to come back and gain the benefits of them.

I enjoy that it's general purpose, so you could add it to any game and have it reduce a large number of feat taxes. It'd give the players a tool for reducing their own feat taxes, without you needing to make any arbitrary determinations regarding every specific feat.

If someone really wants a feat for its benefit, then that suggests it's worth the feat, even if they resent that it was "so good" that they "needed" to get it. I don't personally have that much of an issue with those.

The purely-for-prerequisite feat selections are truly the worst.


Dex melee needs Weapon Finesse
Rogues as of Pathfinder Unchained get it for free, so there's an extremely viable option.


Weapon Focus
You don't need this for non-prerequisite purposes. Its benefit is neither worth a feat nor necessary for anyone.

Sacrieur
2015-07-08, 10:19 AM
Thanks for the valuable input guys!

I created an additional feat that may help solve some of the problems (I hope):

Feat Specialization

Prereq: Feat Study

Choose one studied feat. You gain the benefits of this feat. In addition, you gain one bonus feat for which the studied feat is a prerequisite.

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It gives you 2.5 feats for the price of 2. This would be a simple way to remove some of the burden of the feat tax of things like Combat Expertise, which provide no real benefit but is required for everything. I considered adding "even if you don't meet the prerequisites", but felt that would be too overpowered, but I want to hear your thoughts!





Honestly I think homebrewing new/better feats is the way to go for a true fix, but it's also helped by giving all the melee classes more feats in general. I compromised on something that's a mix of the Fighter Bonus Feats and the Ranger's Fighting Styles and called them "Weapon Style Feats", with each class have access to thematically appropriate groups.

If you don't want to homebrew a lot, just give the Melee classes extra fighting feats based on their BAB.

I already did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418881-Initiator-Alternate-Rule-Balance-Fix) (:

Network
2015-07-10, 12:56 PM
It gives you 2.5 feats for the price of 2. This would be a simple way to remove some of the burden of the feat tax of things like Combat Expertise, which provide no real benefit but is required for everything. I considered adding "even if you don't meet the prerequisites", but felt that would be too overpowered, but I want to hear your thoughts!
Why do people consider Combat Expertise worthless when they consider Power Attack so good? +5 to AC is strictly better than +5 to damage at lower levels, and Improved Combat Expertise (from Complete Warrior) removes the cap entirely, which I think is the greatest issue with the feat. Feat Study makes Combat Expertise irrelevant only because it allows players to ignore it and take Improved Combat Expertise directly.

Don't forget that the dodge bonus from Combat Expertise applies even to touch AC. Take a -10 penalty, and you have a reasonable chance of avoiding even the orb of X spells.

Sacrieur
2015-07-10, 04:53 PM
Why do people consider Combat Expertise worthless when they consider Power Attack so good? +5 to AC is strictly better than +5 to damage at lower levels, and Improved Combat Expertise (from Complete Warrior) removes the cap entirely, which I think is the greatest issue with the feat. Feat Study makes Combat Expertise irrelevant only because it allows players to ignore it and take Improved Combat Expertise directly.

Given that this is pathfinder, the Power Attack and Combat Expertise feats work differently :p



Don't forget that the dodge bonus from Combat Expertise applies even to touch AC. Take a -10 penalty, and you have a reasonable chance of avoiding even the orb of X spells.

But you lose it if you lose your Dex bonus.

Network
2015-07-10, 08:46 PM
Given that this is pathfinder, the Power Attack and Combat Expertise feats work differently :p
You are right. I did not know they nerfed Combat Expertise so much from 3.5 to Pathfinder, considering Pathfinder things are usually at an higher power level than 3.5 ones. But now that I read the PF's description of the feat, even I find it useless as it is.