What level would Sam Vimes be in Pathfinder?

[The Vagabond]

This is just myself wondering- What level would Sam Vimes be in Pathfinder? What about the other Watchmen? What would DEATH'S statblock look like?

To me, at least, I'd put him out as a level 8, maybe level 12 fighter. He's handled a ton of ****, he's tough as nails, and has the Iron Will feat squeezed somewhere in his feat list.

[Extra Anchovies]

DEATH would be a Lady of Pain-type sentient plot device. As much as I hate that sort of thing, it's appropriate for our favorite black-robed figure (and his little ratty companion).

Vimes is probably somewhere between levels 4 and 8. It's just that most other people aren't higher than level 3 at best.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't think Vimes is a fighter at all, and I'd say his appearances are pretty classic examples of an E6 world. I might stat him as, like, Rog 2 / Urban Ranger 3 / Barbarian 1. He's not above dirty tricks and sucker-punching people, he's talented with lockpicks and blackjacks, he's talented at bluffing and intimidation though not diplomacy and he has The Beast, which is probably best described as Barbarian rage.

The only people who'd break E6 in Discworld are Cohen (and perhaps some of his cohorts) and the Sourcerer, I think. Any others?

[Lapsed Pacifist]

Vimes definitely has barbarian levels. His inner rage when released allows him to rip werewolves apart with his bear hands.

[EdrickVonHaslen]

I had him fully statted out at one point because I had an Ankh-Morkpork-esque cityscape for a campaign I was running. I'm on mobile now, but if I can find it i'll detail it for you. Him and Carrot and Angua and Reg Shoe. Even Nobby and Colon. (Though more for comic relief)

I thoroughly agree about the barbarian level. Just the one. It's evinced as applicable throughout his story arc. Especially during the endgame of night watch and thud. Maybe two levels.

3-5 of rogue. And the rest fighter or urban ranger. Favored enemy organization. Do you think a gm would agree to Organization (Ankh-Morkpork)?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Vimes definitely has barbarian levels. His inner rage when released allows him to rip werewolves apart with his bear hands.

grizzly scene kodiak moment polarizing cub reporter in the den unbearable

[shaikujin]

grizzly scene kodiak moment polarizing cub reporter in the den unbearable

In other news, a bare Werebear Bearbarian rips a Werewolf apart with bare bear hands.



Carrot absolutely should have levels in Stoneblessed. Perhaps all 3 levels even.

[Chronos]

I'm pretty sure that the Stoneblessed class was invented specifically for Carrot, and he obviously has all three levels. He is a dwarf, after all.

[A_S]

The only people who'd break E6 in Discworld are Cohen (and perhaps some of his cohorts) and the Sourcerer, I think. Any others?
I think there are a few people who have abilities that break E6, even though they themselves aren't necessarily higher than 6th level. Rincewind knows exactly one Epic Spell, for instance. I think Susan has one of those deals like Jaela Daran, the Keeper of the Flame in Eberron, where she's normally pretty low level, but can assume much, much higher-level abilities under certain circumstances (when she TALKS THAT TALK and STALKS THAT STALK).

And then the five horsemen are definitely not E6, but like Anchovies said, they might not really need to be statted out anyway (or at the very least, lots of Divine Ranks).

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Rincewind is a Wizard 4/Survivor 2, with the addition of a special plot effect from the DM. He's also got <10 Intelligence. Susan is I think the same way. Both of them are in campaigns that, for whatever reason, require them to have special abilities and backgrounds. The horsemen, and the various gods, fall into the Not-Statted-Here category along with the tall, skeletal fellow.

Carrot is... Paladin 2/Stoneblessed 2 with the Saint template. If he can buy off one of the LA from the template (I don't remember how all that works in E6) then add another level of Stoneblessed. He did 4d6 drop lowest for stats, and has at least average stats in everything, with probably 10 Dex, 16+ Str and Con (he's described as having the physique of a god, one of the nicer ones, not one with all the tentacles), 18-20 Charisma and 14+ Int and Wisdom. Angua says of him, roughly, that only someone really smart could be as simple as Carrot.

Ponder Stibbons is an Artificer. Vetinari is a Factotum, I think, with of course high Int, middle-age or old, with Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered.

[Afgncaap5]

What about Moist Von Lipwig? Non-performing Bard? Very low-level rogue? Expert/Aristocrat, maybe?

[IZ42]

What about Moist Von Lipwig? Non-performing Bard? Very low-level rogue? Expert/Aristocrat, maybe?

Rogue/bard, definitely.

And Carrot very much does not have a 14 Int. No way, no how. I'd say at max an 8. Now, he does have ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and Knowledge (History), and occasionally does very clever things.

Rincewind also definitely has a Int >10, but is just cowardly and not very charismatic.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Moist is a Marshal 1/Half-Elf Paragon 2/Human Paragon 3, I think. He's really only got one schtick, and that's optimization of Diplomacy and Bluff. If there was a spell-less Bard variant that I was aware of, I'd consider dropping the last level of Hu Paragon and taking one of Bard with Perform (oratory), or even straight Spell-Less Bard 6 with Bardic Knack/Jack of All Trades. Since that class doesn't exist I think Marshal and the Paragon classes is the best option. If you find the idea of Half-Elf Paragon to be objectionable, then probably Feat Rogue 2.

Edit: Carrot, it needs to be said, is extremely cunning, just really subtle about it. The only time he could be considered dense is dealing with Angua (and other women). He's also got an incredible, practically photographic memory and learns extremely quickly (also, he's essentially immune to the Sense Motive skill). Rincewind's lack of Intelligence is the only way to mechanically represent a Wizard who can't cast spells. I suppose you could represent him as a Sorcerer instead, but that's more counter to the fluff.

[The Glyphstone]

. Rincewind's lack of Intelligence is the only way to mechanically represent a Wizard who can't cast spells. I suppose you could represent him as a Sorcerer instead, but that's more counter to the fluff.

I don't think Rincewind has ever been mentioned as carrying a spellbook, so all you need is for him to not own one and to have never taken Spell Mastery. Granted, no wizards in Discworld carry spellbooks, so they must just all have Spell Mastery except for him.

[IZ42]

Wait: I got this. Moist is a Factotum, minus opportunistic piety and arcane dilettante.


I tend to think of wisdom being more representative of cunning than intelligence, which to me is just raw mental horsepower (though it may be refined from that in a way), and Autohypnosis (WIS) is Photographic Memory the skill.

About Rincewind, mechanically, I suppose you would be correct in that matter, but remember, he does have a 9th or greater level spell, and has the ability to cast it, just refrains from doing so strenuously.

Edit: What The Glyphstone says makes a lot of sense, actually, but doesn't explain the Magic Duel between Weatherwax and the Archchancellor in Equal Rites (though that might just be Spell Mastery: Shapechange)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't think Rincewind has ever been mentioned as carrying a spellbook, so all you need is for him to not own one and to have never taken Spell Mastery. Granted, no wizards in Discworld carry spellbooks, so they must just all have Spell Mastery except for him.

Yeah, but he's never able to cast a spell, even when at the University. The exception to this is when the Sourcerer boosts magic to ridic' levels, represented by an Int (or Cha if you prefer the Sorcerer method) buff.

Edit: and yes, Carrot definitely has Autohypnosis.

The other thing about Rincewind is that the spell is separate from him. He doesn't really control it; he actively has to struggle to keep it from casting itself. It sounds pretty much like a DM plot device to me.

[Flame of Anor]

Carrot is definitely not below average in the Intelligence department. Or any department, really.

[Chronos]

And again: Carrot absolutely must have all three levels of Stoneblessed. He's not a guy who's working his way into the Dwarf community, and who expects to be considered a full Dwarf someday. He is a Dwarf, in every way, and all of the dwarves recognize that. That's exactly what the third level represents.

[Eldan]

I think Rincewind is actually fairly intelligent. He picks things up quickly and even in the first book speaks at least a half-dozen languages fluently. And his knowledge skills is quite high.

I'd say basic wizardry or supernaturalness is an inherited template on the disk. It allows you to see magic (arcane sight) and a few other things. Not necessarily cast spells, though, that's learned on top of it. But it's mentioned several times that wizards are born that way, they just later learn to use it better.
They also have spellbooks, but they keep them in the library. Generally, it seems to me, they prepare their spells long-term, over many days, and then don't cast them. One could also imagine that they use their staves as alternate spellbooks and memorization devices.

Rincewind could be modelled in several ways. If you want to make him plot important, he's a low-level wizard with a DM-fiat curse that takes away all his spells and gives him a single epic spell he has no control over and some levels in a class that makes him a better escape artist. Alternatively, he'd also make a quite convincing expert, for the skills.

[frogglesmash]

If we accept that regardless of how you look at it, Rincewind's one spell is some sort of DM, plot device, then I think the best way to go about making Him is to not give him any casting levels at all. After all, we only have his word telling us that he's a wizard (and his wizzard hat). I think it's more than likely that he's just a rather unlucky commoner who happened to put some cross class ranks into spellcraft, or knowledge arcana, or possibly both. He could also be built using the expert class, but I feel that commoner is the most effective way of making him mechanically useless.
Oh, and for the record, I'm pretty sure he's got a pretty high constitution considering all the running does, and I definitely agree with IZ42's thoughts on his intelligence.

[Spore]

Rincewind could be modelled in several ways. If you want to make him plot important, he's a low-level wizard with a DM-fiat curse that takes away all his spells and gives him a single epic spell he has no control over and some levels in a class that makes him a better escape artist. Alternatively, he'd also make a quite convincing expert, for the skills.

He's a smart rogue with some SLAs given by the DM.

[Grim Reader]

A long time ago on the wotc forums, we stated some fictional characters and thought Rincewind to be the best example in fiction of an Epic level commoner.

He clearly has no spellcasting levels, but he may have an Apprentice feat or something. He did cast a Prestdigitation under his own power once, thats the nearest hes come to actual magic.

His method for dealing with encounters is to run away. He started his career running from thugs and footpads, then nymphs and trolls, then Dragons. After that he ran away from demons and dungeon dimensions -for a while in the Dungeon Dimensions. Then an Epic Sorcerer, and towards the end of his career he ran away from the birth and death of worlds and civilizations.

[illyahr]

Rincewind is actually stated to be a fairly competent wizard. The problem, as stated in the books themselves, is that the Great Spell in his head takes up every spell slot he has. There just isn't any room in his head for more spells.

Remember: in The Colour of Magic, the then-Archchancellor had some of the spells in his head and they immediately started to burn him out.

[Grim Reader]

Rincewind stated that. Its his in-character excuse for not being any good at magic. His tutors though that when he died, the average magical ability of the human species would go up a small, but measurable fraction.

He did not manage to cast any spells before the Great Spell lodged in him, and in all the years since he got it out, he has still not managed more than a single cantrip.

[Vhaidara]

Rincewind is a wizard/fortune's friend who spent all his feats on Luck feats.

Vimes is mostly an urban ranger/rogue from what I've read (through amazing maurice, but missing some of fifth elephant)

[Telonius]

Seconding Fortune's Friend for Rincewind. Possibly levels in Monk as well, given his speed.

Vimes ... definitely Urban Ranger. I almost want to say a level or two of Crusader; and probably Iron Heart Surge obtained through a feat (his fight against the Summoning Darkness suggests that had IHS or something like it).

Sgt. Detritus: The build has to involve Imperious Command somehow. Monkey Grip feat, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Ballista for the Piecemaker.

Nobby: Rogue. Possibly Mongrelfolk.

Fred: Warrior.

[IZ42]

Sgt Detritus: Intimidating Prowess, Imperious Command, Might is Right, all that stuff. How would the mental stats on discworld trolls work? Something like they would start out with a -4 to to INT, and -2 to CHA and WIS, and then get a cumulative bonus to INT, WIS, and CHA, based on how cold it is.

[Eldan]

Vimes could also be argued to have a level in Warlock or similar, from Thud!/Snuff onward.

[shaikujin]

Two Flower - level 1 halfling commoner with the WBL of a level 6 character. Perhaps more.

Either that, or he's some kind of artificer that can get magic items cheap but have no other spell/infusion casting abilities. Level 1 bard might fit too (for the stories of Rincewind that he recounted back in his home country).

The Luggage would be a Pack Mate Homunculus. Has max ranks in Intimidate.

Now the camera with an imp painter inside... Planar Bind a tiny imp with Profession (Painting)? Is there a limit to how quickly a character paint using the rules?

[Eldan]

The camera doesn't seem that expensive. It could just be a creative application of silent image and prestidigitation, with the imp as pure fluff.

[Telonius]

Cheery and the rest are probably plain old low-level Fighters or Warriors. (Dwarves would get racial proficiency in Dwarf Bread, I assume).

[IZ42]

Cheery and the rest are probably plain old low-level Fighters or Warriors. (Dwarves would get racial proficiency in Dwarf Bread, I assume).

Cheery has a level or two in Alchemist.

[Honest Tiefling]

Vimes is definitely not a pure fighter. His fighting style relies entirely on hitting people where it hurts the most or more preferably, when they cannot hit back. Not sure how much more rogue-like he needs to be. Rincewind has to have an above average intelligence, since he did learn a smattering of other languages. While he cannot cast spells, he can adapt and learn quickly.

What I am more curious about is how people would stat up the Piecemaker.

[IZ42]

Vimes is definitely not a pure fighter. His fighting style relies entirely on hitting people where it hurts the most or more preferably, when they cannot hit back. Not sure how much more rogue-like he needs to be. Rincewind has to have an above average intelligence, since he did learn a smattering of other languages. While he cannot cast spells, he can adapt and learn quickly.

What I am more curious about is how people would stat up the Piecemaker.

Ballista using the rules for scatter-shot from the Pathfinder Firearms Page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/firearms). The bolts also have the flaming quality applied or something similar.

[Telonius]

It would probably be a line effect (fire) between the weapon and its target; then damage as per a Fireball upon contact with the target.

EDIT: ... is there some kind of Desert Wind maneuver that would mimic that?

[illyahr]

It would probably be a line effect (fire) between the weapon and its target; then damage as per a Fireball upon contact with the target.

EDIT: ... is there some kind of Desert Wind maneuver that would mimic that?

I don't know about maneuvers, but there is the Explosive quality for weapons. It deals an additional 2d4 damage in a 5' radius burst on a hit.

[IZ42]

I don't know about maneuvers, but there is the Explosive quality for weapons. It deals an additional 2d4 damage in a 5' radius burst on a hit.

That seems terrifying in conjunction with scatter shot.

[Telonius]

That seems terrifying in conjunction with scatter shot.

So, perfect for the Piecemaker. :smallbiggrin:

[Honest Tiefling]

That seems terrifying in conjunction with scatter shot.

But is it terrifying enough?

[MukkTB]

Vimes does feel like a multiclass character. A little barbarian, possibly some rogue and maybe even a touch of expert.

Some of the Wizards are pretty nasty, and the spells they throw at each other, even without the Sourcerer, are pretty serious. They (and several other characters) go beyond E6.

For that matter the Witches are also capable of some high level casting, and are a bit tougher than you would expect old ladies to normally be. Actually I'm not sure what class the Witches are. The Wizards are obviously Wizards. The Witches - might be Pathfinder Oracles. Their casting is a bit more spontaneous, a little more focused on the divine, and they individually have supernatural abilities centered around a theme. They even have 'headology,' which in other words is the manipulation of other people. That would be charisma skills in, particularly intimidate but also diplomacy and bluff. I could believe that the lot of them have high charisma if you define charisma as force of personality rather than good looks. The only problem with this theory (assuming homebrewed DM mysteries appropriate for each character) is that the witches can cast off a spellbook if they choose to. Mostly they don't bother, but when they plan a serious spell you often see them consult some texts. If you wanted to get real technical, you could say they were Spirit Guide Oracles whose DM has allowed them to use Arcane Enlightenment provided they had a spellbook to work off of.

Carrot is not stupid, although I wouldn't rank him among the smartest characters in the series.

The patrician is also very capable and probably breaks E6. He attended the assassins guild, but that doesn't make him one because the guild was seen as a posh school for young noblemen. What does make him an assassin is the fact that he actually carried out at least one assassination that we know of. Furthermore among the assassin students, he was actually interested in being stealthy, rather than looking good. I would not be surprised if he was an rogue/assassin with a few supernatural abilities gained from the rogue class.

[illyahr]

The patrician is also very capable and probably breaks E6. He attended the assassins guild, but that doesn't make him one because the guild was seen as a posh school for young noblemen. What does make him an assassin is the fact that he actually carried out at least one assassination that we know of. Furthermore among the assassin students, he was actually interested in being stealthy, rather than looking good. I would not be surprised if he was an rogue/assassin with a few supernatural abilities gained from the rogue class.

The interesting things is that the Assassin PrC is possible in E6, so it's not unlikely that Vetinari could be one.

[Calemyr]

Going with just the classes I'm familiar with:
Vimes: Rogue/Barbarian/Warlock. Vimes specializes in doing a lot with a little. He doesn't hit hard, usually... he hits where it hurts. His contact with the Summoning Dark puts him into legendary status.

Rincewind: Wizard/Monk with 10 int and 18 wisdom. The man has honed common sense into a superpower. The crazy things he does are only crazy to those who have not lived his life. He has all the features of a wizard without the spell casting (i.e. the spells are on his spell list, even if he can't cast them without outside assistance). The one spell he ever learned may as well be a divine spell, anyway.

Moist: Bard with Glibness in all spell slots. He's freaking Moist von Lipwig! He can convince junkyard mutts to sit on command! All the world's a show! And the name of the game is always "What can we get away with?"!

Carrot: Captain Carrot has a remarkably high intellence, but maxed out Bluff so that nobody can see it. I'd normally say Wisdom rather than Intelligence, but Carrot proves an excellent detective, figuring out the Feet of Clay mystery as fast as Vimes without having to take as large of leaps. He doesn't come close matching Ponder or Ridcully, but I'd certainly put him on par with some of the wizards. Charisma is through the freaking roof, of course.

[IZ42]

Vines is more of a Barbarian (Bloodrager maybe) than a warlock.

Rincewind is very intelligent, as has been said many times before , but also has a modicum of common sense. He also has the run feat. Other than the running quickly deal (which is solved by the run feat) I don't see why he would be a monk.

Moist is a Factotum into Chameleon (picks up new talents when he needs to, etc.), I'm telling you. He can get Glibness through Arcane Dilettante.

Carrot is average (or lower) Int, with VERY high wisdom. Agreed about Charisma though

[Wardog]

The only people who'd break E6 in Discworld are Cohen (and perhaps some of his cohorts) and the Sourcerer, I think. Any others?

The Luggage? Lu-Tze?
Great A'Tuin


As for how to stat Rincewind:
Wizard/Rogue
Decent Int, Wis (for recognising danger), Con (for running and surviving)
Most skill points spent on Knowledge: things that can kill you
Weapon Proficiency: Half Brick in a Sock
Feat: Run
Flaw: Cannot memorize spells.

[Taveena]

I'm going to have to second the suggestion of Rincewind as having as many levels in Survivor as possible.

Also, Vimes COULD be something a little more obscure (as could the others of the original Night Watch). Sneak Attack and Thug Fighters are pretty plausible.

EDIT: The Luggage is a particularly aggressive Packmate Homunculus, I'm fairly certain.

[Afgncaap5]

I wonder if Rincewind's Great Spell might be something like a Weapon of Legacy, just in spell form. It gives certain "benefits" (for lack of a better term), but just eats up caster levels and prevents new spells from being learned.

[Eldan]

Vines is more of a Barbarian (Bloodrager maybe) than a warlock.

He has supernatural darkvision, at least, and potentially other powers.

[IZ42]

He has supernatural darkvision, at least, and potentially other powers.

Bloodrager can grant darkvision, I'm pretty sure. And if not, you can just write a bloodline that does so. And find me an example of vimes using Eldritch Blast or an Invocation.

[MukkTB]

Vimes as a rogue/bloodrager sounds good.

I like Rincewind as a monk with low strength much more than as a wizard with low int.

[shaikujin]

Remembered something else about Rincewind, he's also the chosen of the goddess Lady Luck.