Why isn't every Sarrukh Pun-Pun?

[booitsjwu]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why do you guys think the Sarrukhs aren't the rulers of reality? They're clearly not stupid (even just with their base mental stats) so it seems like they'd figure out pretty quickly that the power they're born with can literally do anything...

Edit: I've added a "just for fun" tag to this thread because it seems people are missing the subtext...

[AmberVael]

Because no one wants Pun-Pun in a game. It is both mechanically and narratively unappealing for Pun-Pun to actually exist. Anyone who uses the Sarrukh will nip something like that in the bud.

[enderlord99]

Because they're also born with immunity to their own ability.

EDIT: Also because of what AmberVael said.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

How many games actually have the Sarrukh?

Aaand.. y'know, how do you know they aren't? Part of the thing with Pun-Pun is that he's n at everything. Maybe they're all Pun-Pun and off doing their things at a much higher plane of existence. All characters are just a bunch of mosquito larvae swimming around wondering why other larvae aren't mosquitoes; meanwhile, there are mutha-fuggin' eagles out there.

[Telonius]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why do you guys think the Sarrukhs aren't the rulers of reality? They're clearly not stupid (even just with their base mental stats) so it seems like they'd figure out pretty quickly that the power they're born with can literally do anything...

Because the first one to ascend used the "LOLNOPE" ability. Any Sarrukh (or other scalykind) attempting to summon Pazuzu is instead connected to the original Pun-Pun.

[booitsjwu]

Because no one wants Pun-Pun in a game. It is both mechanically and narratively unappealing for Pun-Pun to actually exist. Anyone who uses the Sarrukh will nip something like that in the bud before it gets started one way or another.

Well, I meant an in-universe reason. Of course it wouldn't be reasonable in any actual campaign.


Because they're also born with immunity to their own ability.

EDIT: Also because of what AmberVael said.

They can just use Pun-Pun's tactics of using another creature to avoid that immunity. They're very intelligent creatures.

[Brova]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why do you guys think the Sarrukhs aren't the rulers of reality? They're clearly not stupid (even just with their base mental stats) so it seems like they'd figure out pretty quickly that the power they're born with can literally do anything...

Because manipulate form doesn't actually work the way people say it does. It's an ability with unspecified parameters. Also, using wish to get a belt of magnificence +infinity that also grants all spells with unlimited charges is faster. So someone does that and snipes any Sarrukh trying to abuse his ability.

[noob]

"Because the first one to ascend used the "LOLNOPE" ability. Any Sarrukh (or other scalykind) attempting to summon Pazuzu is instead connected to the original Pun-Pun. "
You know Sarrukhs for creating infinite power loops does not needs to summon pazuzu and also pun pun needed to summon a Sarrukh for making its infinite loop and so infinite power Sarrukh are anterior to pun pun.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Or maybe it's that the Omniscifier is out there killing all of them first.

[OldTrees1]

Because they're also born with immunity to their own ability.

Continuing:

So while a Sarrukh could become Pun Pun(by being granted an ability they are not immune to by an ability they are not immune to), they first need to hand over ultimate power to a non Sarrukh. Most Pun Puns kill all potential rivals rather than share the power.

[AmberVael]

Well, I meant an in-universe reason. Of course it wouldn't be reasonable in any actual campaign.

You expect there to be an in universe answer to theoretical optimization rules abuse? :smallconfused:

[booitsjwu]

Continuing:

So while a Sarrukh could become Pun Pun(by being granted an ability they are not immune to by an ability they are not immune to), they first need to hand over ultimate power to a non Sarrukh. Most Pun Puns kill all potential rivals rather than share the power.

True, any Pun-Pun will face the same issue during ascension.


You expect there to be an in universe answer to theoretical optimization rules abuse? :smallconfused:

I think you might be missing the tone of this thread; I just thought it'd be fun to see what theories people come up with.

[BWR]

How is this even a question?
In universe it's because the setting doesn't run on game mechanics. Maybe that's what some people like to do with their games - build settings based on mechanics rather than adapting mechanics to the setting, but it's the other way around with most settings. In the case of the sarrukh, they don't do it because that's not something they can do in universe, no matter what ridiculous (and rather questionable) things some people try to wring out of game mechanics meant to emulate the setting.
Out of universe, not everyone wants that sort of non-sense in their game (I would bet that only a very few people actually want that) so it doesn't exist.

[booitsjwu]

How is this even a question?
In universe it's because the setting doesn't run on game mechanics. Maybe that's what some people like to do with their games - build settings based on mechanics rather than adapting mechanics to the setting, but it's the other way around with most settings. In the case of the sarrukh, they don't do it because that's not something they can do in universe, no matter what ridiculous (and rather questionable) things some people try to wring out of game mechanics meant to emulate the setting.
Out of universe, not everyone wants that sort of non-sense in their game (I would bet that only a very few people actually want that) so it doesn't exist.

I've added a "just for fun" tag because it seems people are missing the subtext...

[ComaVision]

Pun Pun, as the Deity of Infinite Loops, is aware of all exploits n days before they happen and kills the to-be guilty character.

[booitsjwu]

Pun Pun, as the Deity of Infinite Loops, is aware of all exploits n days before they happen and kills the to-be guilty character.

I agree. However, was Pun Pun originally a Sarrukh before he/she/it ascended?

[noob]

No: pun pun never existed because there was a Sarrukh who took the obtain familiar feat(he does not even needs to gain a level for that) and created an infinite loop making him all powerful and he killed everyone susceptible to become pun pun.

[ComaVision]

I agree. However, was Pun Pun originally a Sarrukh before he/she/it ascended?

Pun Pun is everything and Pun Pun is nothing.

Pun Pun is love.

Pun Pun is life.

(But semi-seriously, I think the Pun Pun would have started as a non-Sarrukh. Assuming they're all smart, nobody would've wanted to grant power to another Sarrukh because they all know what's up. The first would have been some other scaley-inclined ancient race that the Sarrukh wrongfully thought could be controlled.)


No: pun pun never existed because there was a Sarrukh who took the obtain familiar feat(he does not even needs to gain a level for that) and created an infinite loop making him all powerful and he killed everyone susceptible to become pun pun.

Clever but since Sarrukh are such an old race, Pun Pun probably occurred before the races that familiars are composed of came to be.

[Hawkstar]

I thought only a kobold could pull off Pun Pun because Sarruhks don't have access to several traits Kobolds have that allows them to actually initiate the power-gain loo (Starting with NOT being immune to the ability, and also not being Small. Are they even scalykind?).

[OldTrees1]

No: pun pun never existed because there was a Sarrukh who took the obtain familiar feat(he does not even needs to gain a level for that) and created an infinite loop making him all powerful and he killed everyone susceptible to become pun pun.

Wouldn't the familiar betray the Sarrukh long before that point(since the first step is to give the familiar unlimited power)?

[noob]

"Wouldn't the familiar betray the Sarrukh long before that point(since the first step is to give the familiar unlimited power)? "
well the familiar does not get unlimited power as the first step.
The power of both increase in parallel also pun pun also needed a familiar exactly like this Sarrukh for making the infinite power loop since it involve increasing a little the familiar power who increase yours and restart all of that while stopping time.
(In fact you can also use a psy crystal and I believe pun pun used one but a psi crystal also can diverge from you like a familiar and there is maybe a feat for it)

[ComaVision]

"Wouldn't the familiar betray the Sarrukh long before that point(since the first step is to give the familiar unlimited power)? "
well the familiar does not get unlimited power as the first step.
The power of both increase in parallel also pun pun also needed a familiar exactly like this Sarrukh for making the infinite power loop since it involve increasing a little the familiar power who increase yours and restart all of that while stopping time.
(In fact you can also use a psy crystal and I believe pun pun used one but a psi crystal also can diverge from you like a familiar and there is maybe a feat for it)

Does it have to be a familiar or psycrystal? Why?

Seems to me it would be safer to use multiple creatures for different stats, so you don't don't have a familiar/creature that is nearly as powerful as yourself. You could presumably have one of their stats drained down so they're unable to act while you buff up your stats.

[noob]

Well it is only because pun pun did it this way but it is true there is safer ways but I was only trying to prove Sarrukh could do the same trick as pun pun but a lot sooner and with less steps.

[booitsjwu]

Well it is only because pun pun did it this way but it is true there is safer ways but I was only trying to prove Sarrukh could do the same trick as pun pun but a lot sooner and with less steps.

I see what you're getting at. I think all you have to do is give your familiar the original Manipulate Form and have him give you one without the immunity or other limits built in. (Make sure and take his power away now.) Then you can make the other changes on your own.

Perhaps a dominated creature or something similar might be safer. (Give them the oh-so-wonderful Ex. ability of being 100% under your control.)

[ComaVision]

Are Sarrukh still immune to the effects of Manipulate Form, not just their own Manipulate Form?

[ExLibrisMortis]

But you could just grant your familiar Manipulate Form by another name, and bypass your immunity that way. Since your familiar has a unique MF that works only on you, it won't be able to make anyone else go Pun-Pun. You can even make it unable to reduce your stats.


[...] Maybe they're all Pun-Pun and off doing their things at a much higher plane of existence. All characters are just a bunch of mosquito larvae swimming around wondering why other larvae aren't mosquitoes; meanwhile, there are mutha-fuggin' eagles out there.
This is my preferred explanation for 'why doesn't X infinite loop exist in Y setting', at least for those loops that are allowed to work in Y. In the same vein, deities are just super-powered versions of regular characters, with HD orders of magnitude beyond mortals, and action economy beyond nested time stops. The portfolios are more a matter of divine politics than any natural association between deity A and porfolio A'. Of course, deities do care deeply about their portfolios, else they wouldn't have the will to keep pushing their strength in that area.

[OldTrees1]

Does it have to be a familiar or psycrystal? Why?

Seems to me it would be safer to use multiple creatures for different stats, so you don't don't have a familiar/creature that is nearly as powerful as yourself. You could presumably have one of their stats drained down so they're unable to act while you buff up your stats.

It doesn't matter. However to start off, a Sarrukh(unlike other applicants) needs to give their assistant the Sarrukh-Compatible Manipulate Form ability. So the Sarrukh is now at the mercy of the Pun Pun they needed to create.


I don't think that works because the Sarrukh is still immune to the effects of Manipulate Form? It's not just their own Manipulate Form.

It can work but it needs a crucial additional step.
1) Manipulate Form(targeting a non Sarrukh) -> Give a Sarrukh-Compatible Manipulate Form
2) Sarrukh-Compatible Manipulate Form(targeting the Sarrukh) -> Give a Sarrukh-Compatible Manipulate Form
However step 2 never happens because the initial target becomes Pun Pun and never does step 2.

[booitsjwu]

It doesn't matter. However to start off, a Sarrukh(unlike other applicants) needs to give their assistant the Sarrukh-Compatible Manipulate Form ability. So the Sarrukh is now at the mercy of the Pun Pun they needed to create.



It can work but it needs a crucial additional step.
1) Manipulate Form(targeting a non Sarrukh) -> Give a Sarrukh-Compatible Manipulate Form
2) Sarrukh-Compatible Manipulate Form(targeting the Sarrukh) -> Give a Sarrukh-Compatible Manipulate Form
However step 2 never happens because the initial target becomes Pun Pun and never does step 2.

Ah but you forgot the all-important Step 0: Give your assistant "My Slave (Ex.) - This creature is [Enter your name here]'s mind-slave/meat puppet."

[Jack_Simth]

Magical stacking rules. Manipulate Form is a Permanent Supernatural ability. Only one such named ability can affect any target at any one time (the second suppresses the first, and so on). DM fiat means they can't actually invent new abilities, that was just something that was left out of the book.

[noob]

The discussion in this thread is not about the possibility of the existence of pun pun it is obvious he can not exist with any dm except as a pnj god of an universe of a fan of pun pun.
The discussion is why Sarrukh in a universe where the pun pun trick exists are or are not omnipotent.

[Chronos]

Personally, this is why I've never been all that impressed with the Pun-Pun trick. It's long been well-known to optimizers that you could nab powerful monster abilities in various ways, and the first optimizer to read Serpent Kingdoms would inevitably notice that the Sarrukh have a really powerful ability. It's a no-brainer to combine the two, and whoever designed the Sarrukh really should have realized that.

[Darrin]

Tleilaxu Ghola tackled this problem with his Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1033641) and Temporal Workshop: Finding Time Tricks to Kill Pun-Pun (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717224217/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=673975) threads. In a nutshell: assuming a world where the Pun-Pun event can happen, someone will determine when it happens, and then use temporal time-travel tricks to appear exactly one round before the Pun-Pun event happens and prevent it from happening. However, you get stuck into something of a do-loop, because someone else can determine Pun-Pun will happen, that therefore someone will try to prevent it, and they will travel two rounds before the Pun-Pun event to either prevent the original prevention or ascend to Pun-Pun before the prevention. You then get an infinite regression of would-be Pun-Puns and Terminators trying to timejump in front of each other.

I'm not sure if TG ever found a solution to that problem. Or perhaps that is the solution: there is an infinite number of possible would-be Pun-Puns and an equally infinite number of Terminators stretching back through the entire history of existence, cancelling each other out in six-second increments. Anyone who manages to pull off either Pun-Pun or the Terminator trick finds themselves as part of that infinite conga-line. From a gameplay standpoint, they are removed from the world, which continues along as if Pun-Pun hadn't happened in the first place.

[Brova]

Tleilaxu Ghola tackled this problem with his Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1033641) and Temporal Workshop: Finding Time Tricks to Kill Pun-Pun (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717224217/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=673975) threads. In a nutshell: assuming a world where the Pun-Pun event can happen, someone will determine when it happens, and then use temporal time-travel tricks to appear exactly one round before the Pun-Pun event happens and prevent it from happening. However, you get stuck into something of a do-loop, because someone else can determine Pun-Pun will happen, that therefore someone will try to prevent it, and they will travel two rounds before the Pun-Pun event to either prevent the original prevention or ascend to Pun-Pun before the prevention. You then get an infinite regression of would-be Pun-Puns and Terminators trying to timejump in front of each other.

I'm not sure if TG ever found a solution to that problem. Or perhaps that is the solution: there is an infinite number of possible would-be Pun-Puns and an equally infinite number of Terminators stretching back through the entire history of existence, cancelling each other out in six-second increments. Anyone who manages to pull off either Pun-Pun or the Terminator trick finds themselves as part of that infinite conga-line. From a gameplay standpoint, they are removed from the world, which continues along as if Pun-Pun hadn't happened in the first place.

Actually, there's a simpler form of this argument. Becoming Pun-Pun involves getting an unrestricted wish, and then taking a bunch of actions to abuse manipulate form. You could instead wish for a magic item with all the abilities (including at-will gate and Quickened plane shift, and permanent death ward). Then you just plane shift to the negative energy plane and gate in whoever is trying to go all Pun-Pun. At that point they've had the chance to grant themselves one ability, which is not generally sufficient to deal with the Free Vacation: No Save trick.

By the time you are actually Pun-Pun, you are already dead because the Wish's trick is better than yours.

[booitsjwu]

Becoming Pun-Pun involves getting an unrestricted wish

I'm not sure if you actually read the OP but we're talking about Sarrukhs. They don't need wish. This is how they ascend.

Step 1: Find any "Scaled One native to Toril". (A lizard of some kind would probably be easiest.)
Step 2: Give it the Ex ability "Slave (Ex): [Enter name of creature here] has no free will and is simply the mind-slave/meat puppet of [Enter your name here]." (You'll probably want to word it differently.)
Step 3: Raise its intelligence to 10 if needed.
Step 4: Give it Manipulate Form without the limitations.
Step 5: Have it give you the limitless Manipulate Form.
Step 6: Restore your meat puppet to its original state.
Step 7: Ascend.

[Brova]

I'm not sure if you actually read the OP but we're talking about Sarrukhs. They don't need wish. This is how they ascend.

Step 1: Find any "Scaled One native to Toril". (A lizard of some kind would probably be easiest.)
Step 2: Give it the Ex ability "Slave (Ex): [Enter name of creature here] has no free will and is simply the mind-slave/meat puppet of [Enter your name here]." (You'll probably want to word it differently.)
Step 3: Raise its intelligence to 10 if needed.
Step 4: Give it Manipulate Form without the limitations.
Step 5: Have it give you the limitless Manipulate Form.
Step 6: Restore your meat puppet to its original state.
Step 7: Ascend.

Sure, but that doesn't really solve anything. That still takes more actions than using a Candle (or whatever) to get a wish, wishing for an item that does everything, then winning the game.

[booitsjwu]

Sure, but that doesn't really solve anything. That still takes more actions than using a Candle (or whatever) to get a wish, wishing for an item that does everything, then winning the game.

The number of steps is irrelevant since the entire process takes very little time. In order for Pun-Pun to exist, Sarrukhs must exist. All a Sarrukh needs to ascend is a non-Sarrukh Scaly One (there are many kinds: dinosaurs, lizards, snake constructs, serpents, etc.) Considering Sarrukhs have a base int of 30 (that's very high), I estimate the very first Sarrukh ascended approximately 10-15 minutes after its birth. Based on what little we know about the history of these ancient creatures, Sarrukhs quickly took over the world, accomplished amazing things the likes of which have never been seen since and eventually died off. That sounds like a race trying out their powers for awhile and then, quickly growing bored of easy mode, ascend to a higher state of being to find something more their speed. (See: Serpent Kingdoms pg. 5)

[Brova]

Considering Sarrukhs have a base int of 30 (that's very high), I estimate the very first Sarrukh ascended approximately 10-15 minutes after its birth.

Omnipotence via wish abuse takes two standard actions. One to acquire your wish (perhaps by use of a candle of invocation) and one to wish for a magic item with every possible property. Then you can use your swift action to plane shift to the negative energy plane and start using gate to kill people.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Tleilaxu Ghola tackled this problem with his Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1033641) and Temporal Workshop: Finding Time Tricks to Kill Pun-Pun (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717224217/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=673975) threads. In a nutshell: assuming a world where the Pun-Pun event can happen, someone will determine when it happens, and then use temporal time-travel tricks to appear exactly one round before the Pun-Pun event happens and prevent it from happening. However, you get stuck into something of a do-loop, because someone else can determine Pun-Pun will happen, that therefore someone will try to prevent it, and they will travel two rounds before the Pun-Pun event to either prevent the original prevention or ascend to Pun-Pun before the prevention. You then get an infinite regression of would-be Pun-Puns and Terminators trying to timejump in front of each other.

I'm not sure if TG ever found a solution to that problem. Or perhaps that is the solution: there is an infinite number of possible would-be Pun-Puns and an equally infinite number of Terminators stretching back through the entire history of existence, cancelling each other out in six-second increments. Anyone who manages to pull off either Pun-Pun or the Terminator trick finds themselves as part of that infinite conga-line. From a gameplay standpoint, they are removed from the world, which continues along as if Pun-Pun hadn't happened in the first place.

Back when the Pun-Pun build relied on the Divine Minion template and was accessible at ECL 5, Lord_of_Procrastination proposed the ECL 4 Omniscifier (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596), designed specifically to forsee and eliminate any possible Pun-Puns before they could kick off.

[booitsjwu]

Omnipotence via wish abuse takes two standard actions. One to acquire your wish (perhaps by use of a candle of invocation) and one to wish for a magic item with every possible property. Then you can use your swift action to plane shift to the negative energy plane and start using gate to kill people.

Alright, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The Ascension of Pun-Pun can't happen before the birth of the first Sarrukh since it requires the Sarrukh's manipulate form and it can't happen after the first Sarrukh ascends (10-15 minutes after it's born). In other words, there is a 10-15 minute window in all of history where, if another creature wishes to ascend, it must:

1.) Discover the existence of this brand new species.
2.) Devise a means of summoning it. (Wish, Gate, etc.)
3.) Gather the materials necessary.
4.) Summon it.

Clearly, that did not happen. (I use the past tense since that window of time was over 36,000 years ago.) (See Serpent Kingdoms pg.5)


Back when the Pun-Pun build relied on the Divine Minion template and was accessible at ECL 5, Lord_of_Procrastination proposed the ECL 4 Omniscifier (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596), designed specifically to forsee and eliminate any possible Pun-Puns before they could kick off.

Very good point. However, was the Omniscificer's method available before the time of the Sarrukh? They're a progenitor race so many things that we take for granted in the present (items, classes, races, etc.) simply didn't exist back then. Pun-pun could have ascended literally tens of thousands of years before that method was even possible.

[Extra Anchovies]

You all are taking enderlord's statement ("Because they're also born with immunity to their own ability.") too literally. To quote the first paragraph of the ability:

At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconscious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude save negates both the change and the unconsciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect.

"Immune to this effect" doesn't just mean each Sarrukh is immune to their own Manipulate Form. It means every Sarrukh is immune to every Sarrukh's Manipulate Form.

So to be an eligible target for Manipulate Form, you have to meet five conditions:
1. Be a Scaled One.
2. Be native to Toril.
3. Not be aquatic.
4. Not be undead.
5. Not be a Sarrukh.

The Sarruk fails to meet condition 5. Unless there is a way to remove the Sarrukh's racial immunity to Manipulate Form (without, of course, using Manipulate Form to do so, because you can't), which I'm pretty sure there isn't, then Sarrukh themselves cannot ascend.

[Brova]

Alright, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The Ascension of Pun-Pun can't happen before the birth of the first Sarrukh since it requires the Sarrukh's manipulate form and it can't happen after the first Sarrukh ascends (10-15 minutes after it's born). In other words, there is a 10-15 minute window in all of history where, if another creature wishes to ascend, it must:
1.) Discover the existence of this brand new species.
2.) Devise a means of summoning it. (Wish, Gate, etc.)
3.) Gather the materials necessary.
4.) Summon it.

Clearly, that did not happen. (I use the past tense since that window of time was over 36,000 years ago.)

I mean, if you posit that Sarrukhs are going to ascend, so are Pit Fiends (Int 26, wish 1/year), Zodars (Int - but apparently capable of thought, wish 1/year), anything with shapechange, and Efreet (Int 12, wish 3/day - has to get a mortal some how, probably by intimidating a peasant into wishing for dominate person on another peasant). Any or all of those could plausibly predate the Sarrukh, and all of them win faster than the Sarrukh does. Manipulate form is simply worse than wish. By a lot.

Of course, it is also true that manipulate form as written basically doesn't work because there are unfilled variables in the ability description. Pun-Pun is in essentially the same ground, rules-wise, as using the "greater effects" clause of wish.

[booitsjwu]

You all are taking enderlord's statement ("Because they're also born with immunity to their own ability.") too literally. To quote the first paragraph of the ability: "Immune to this effect" doesn't just mean each Sarrukh is immune to their own Manipulate Form. It means every Sarrukh is immune to every Sarrukh's Manipulate Form.

You should read every post in a thread before replying. I refer you to my post 4th from the top of this page. See Step 4.


I mean, if you posit that Sarrukhs are going to ascend, so are Pit Fiends (Int 26, wish 1/year), Zodars (Int - but apparently capable of thought, wish 1/year), anything with shapechange, and Efreet (Int 12, wish 3/day - has to get a mortal some how, probably by intimidating a peasant into wishing for dominate person on another peasant). Any or all of those could plausibly predate the Sarrukh, and all of them win faster than the Sarrukh does. Manipulate form is simply worse than wish. By a lot.

Of course, it is also true that manipulate form as written basically doesn't work because there are unfilled variables in the ability description. Pun-Pun is in essentially the same ground, rules-wise, as using the "greater effects" clause of wish.

Yes, but as is explicitly stated in the spell description, greater wish might not even do what you want it to.

[Extra Anchovies]

You should read every post in a thread before replying. See Step 4 below.

I don't interpret Manipulate Form as allowing custom-written abilities.

[atemu1234]

Back when the Pun-Pun build relied on the Divine Minion template and was accessible at ECL 5, Lord_of_Procrastination proposed the ECL 4 Omniscifier (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596), designed specifically to forsee and eliminate any possible Pun-Puns before they could kick off.

Ah, history.

[booitsjwu]

I don't interpret Manipulate Form as allowing custom-written abilities.

That's fine. Put the following in place of Step 4:

Step 4a: Have him give me the Alternate Form Ability.
Step 4b: Change into something other than a Sarrukh.

[Brova]

I think you need to reread my post more carefully. Nothing can ascend to Pun-Pun before the first Sarrukh is born because Manipulate Form is a necessary part of the Pun-Pun Ascension Process and only Sarrukhs provide that ability. It doesn't matter if creatures have Gate and Shapechange at will if Sarrukhs don't exist yet. What are you calling? What are you changing into? They don't exist yet.

You aren't ascending with manipulate form, because manipulate form is slow and crappy. You are ascending by using the "create a magic item" clause of wish to create a magic item that has all beneficial passive spells active continuously, all spells with all permutations of metamagic, and offers an arbitrarily large bonus in an arbitrary number of types to ability scores, AC, skills, and saves. That takes two actions, one if you natively have wish (perhaps by the simple expedient of being a Pit Fiend). Then, while the Sarrukh is finding someone to enslave, you use a swift action to Quickened plane shift to the negative energy plane (you are immune to negative energy because of death ward). Then you use gate to call, with no save, anyone anywhere to you to perform a service for a number of rounds equal to your item's (arbitrarily large) caster level. You call the Sarrukh, tell it to perform the service of "doing pushups" and cast save or dies on it until it blows a save.

[booitsjwu]

You aren't ascending with manipulate form, because manipulate form is slow and crappy. You are ascending by using the "create a magic item" clause of wish to create a magic item that has all beneficial passive spells active continuously, all spells with all permutations of metamagic, and offers an arbitrarily large bonus in an arbitrary number of types to ability scores, AC, skills, and saves. That takes two actions, one if you natively have wish (perhaps by the simple expedient of being a Pit Fiend). Then, while the Sarrukh is finding someone to enslave, you use a swift action to Quickened plane shift to the negative energy plane (you are immune to negative energy because of death ward). Then you use gate to call, with no save, anyone anywhere to you to perform a service for a number of rounds equal to your item's (arbitrarily large) caster level. You call the Sarrukh, tell it to perform the service of "doing pushups" and cast save or dies on it until it blows a save.

If Pit Fiends do predate Sarrukhs then that is a very good point.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Very good point. However, was the Omniscificer's method available before the time of the Sarrukh? They're a progenitor race so many things that we take for granted in the present (items, classes, races, etc.) simply didn't exist back then. Pun-pun could have ascended literally tens of thousands of years before that method was even possible.

That's a good point. The Omniscifier is an Elf Artificer; it was designed not to counter Pun-Pun the concept but Pun-Pun, the Kobold Divine Minion/Wizard/MoMF. One of assumptions inherent in the Terminator by TG's own admission is that the Terminator is older than Pun-Pun, and that the Terminator achieved its level and inventory before Pun-Pun's ascension. It also relies on the infinite knowledge trick used by the Omniscifier to discover Pun-Pun's ancestors. So if we assume that the first Sarrukh ascends to overdietyhood, and that it aggressively protects itself, as soon as it is able, then neither LoP's or TG's methods work. That's not to take anything away from them; they are greater than anything I will ever accomplish.

[Alent]

You all are taking enderlord's statement ("Because they're also born with immunity to their own ability.") too literally. To quote the first paragraph of the ability:


"Immune to this effect" doesn't just mean each Sarrukh is immune to their own Manipulate Form. It means every Sarrukh is immune to every Sarrukh's Manipulate Form.

It's been a while since I've been in the 3.x headspace because my group lost interest in the system, and I don't have Serpent Kingdoms available to check, so at the risk of a silly question...

Is that one of those immunities you can voluntarily lower?

[SinsI]

D&D rules for players and NPC are different (i.e. cost of one-time use items increases 5x if you are making a single dungeon run), so NPC Sarrukhs don't have access to the abilities and information that turn them into Pun-Pun.

[noob]

"D&D rules for players and NPC are different (i.e. cost of one-time use items increases 5x if you are making a single dungeon run), so NPC Sarrukhs don't have access to the abilities and information that turn them into Pun-Pun. "
It is written nowhere in raw so it makes no sense in the pun pun universe where game-masters are automaton applying raw.(else pun pun trick is stopped 23154275473457234572574278563725734685683468638346 8248626848358945795698569368569679 times per sub step by the game master)

[SinsI]

It just means that NPC abilities and rules are 100% dictated by the DM, as opposed to players that have actual limitations.

[Pippin]

Pun Pun, as the Deity of Infinite Loops, is aware of all exploits n days before they happen and kills the to-be guilty character.
I would agree, besides, however powerful someone can be, they used to be harmless in the past, at least when they were born. You just have to travel through time and problem solved.

It's a funny thing to think about, because that implies that no one too powerful can exist in D&D :smallsigh:

Edit: OR such a person exists, but will be unknown for ever :smallbiggrin:

[TheGeckoKing]

D&D rules for players and NPC are different (i.e. cost of one-time use items increases 5x if you are making a single dungeon run), so NPC Sarrukhs don't have access to the abilities and information that turn them into Pun-Pun.

Sarrukhs are a playable character race (although, at ECL 22, not the most accessable) that could be chosen by a player with the knowledge that Manipulate Form can be abused in various ways.

Saying that, one realises that Sarrukhs were actually allocated an LA that wasn't "Nope". What the hell, WotC?

[Spore]

This thread is actually about infinities and how quickly they increase. Their infinities increase by the same amount with each step so the Sarrukh who began the rituals first is the one to destroy and rule.

a) If there is an universe where an odd number of Sarrukh ascends towards Ao-like god status at the same exact time they will annihilate each other until only one ultimate god reigns supreme.

b) If there is an universe where an even number of Sarrukh ascend towards power at the exact same moment they are either bound to annihilate each other completely OR rule side by side.

So there is either a single Sarrukh sitting above (Monotheism) or several Sarrukh battling against each other for portfolios, supremacy and power (Polytheism).

[Renen]

That's fine. Put the following in place of Step 4:

Step 4a: Have him give me the Alternate Form Ability.
Step 4b: Change into something other than a Sarrukh.

How is it giving you Alternate Fort?

[Gemini476]

One thing to remember is that if Pun-Pun exists in any time, he exists in all times. That's because Teleport Through Time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)is a spell, and making it so that you retroactively have always existed. And without causing any paradoxes, either, since Teleport Through Time has some bendy-timeline anti-paradox clauses.

This also means that Teleport Through Time is insufficient to stop Pun-Pun from ascending, since using it to travel back to Pun-Pun's birth and killing the baby Kobold or Sarrukh only means that the timeline is going to change so that a different Kobold or Sarrukh ascends anyway.


The only way I know of that is a sure-fire way to fix that is to have a creature with some kind of permanent Forced Dream effect on it traveling back as far as possible and then soft-locking time by having its turn never end and keeping the universe repeating the same six seconds of its birth for all of non-eternity. That still has a hard time stopping Pun-Pun if he's gotten that far back, though, on account of immediate actions being a thing. Then it just ends up as a fight for who has the most Celerities.

That's kind of a world-ending scenario, though, and only stops Pun-Pun by virtue of stopping everything.

[noob]

Teleport through time make the actions of time travel chosen by the gm so if the gm is a mindless automaton(which is absolutely needed for the pun pun ascension) then no actions are chosen and so it just have no effect.
Also If I remember well it is written than most of the reptilian species have been made by Sarrukh so kobolds only existed a long time after Sarrukh and so if a Sarrukh decide to do the unlimited power trick then he becomes omniscient and he simply never create kobolds and so pun pun never birth and there is never a timeline where he exists.

[Gemini476]

Teleport through time make the actions of time travel chosen by the gm so if the gm is a mindless automaton(which is absolutely needed for the pun pun ascension) then no actions are chosen and so it just have no effect.
Also If I remember well it is written than most of the reptilian species have been made by Sarrukh so kobolds only existed a long time after Sarrukh and so if a Sarrukh decide to do the unlimited power trick then he becomes omniscient and he simply never create kobolds and so pun pun never birth and there is never a timeline where he exists.

If a Sarrukh decides to do the unlimited power trick then Pun-Pun does exist, because the Sarrukh is Pun-Pun. While the most famous version of Pun-Pun is a Kobold, he could really be almost any Scaled One of Toril.

Although in the strictest "only pre-existing abilities" ruling on Manipulate Form (the one most TO tricks assume since it's more foolproof than "I give myself the ability Omnipotence (Ex)"), Sarrukhs aren't really part of that list.


Also, since the only real suggestion Teleport Through Time gives for paradoxes is a predeterministic one it's probably safest to assume that your mindless GM automaton is following the most restrictive suggestions where possible. It's probably the best option, really, if you want to avoid paradoxes and don't want to involve many-world timeline-jumping. (Maybe that's why Pun-Pun isn't around - he traveled back in time and hence out of this world, and since he's immortal he won't get called back by dying.)

Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart.


Also, of course, killing a time traveler merely causes them to return to their own time - at which point they have all the time in the world to teleport back to the time that they died. Time travel combat is extremely confusing, and Teleport Through Time acting like some kind of psuedo-Astral Projection doesn't help much.


The added benefit of using Teleport Through Time for this is that it's already part of WotC's Forgotten Realms, of course. I just realized that Forced Dream is from Magic of Eberron, though, and is thus somewhat incompatible. Guess you'll just need an at-will psionic device that lets you use Time Regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) instead if you want to lock time at T=0.

[noob]

With your at will time regression you get younger each time you use it and you can not go in a past where you was not yet able to use a staff.(and you get as weak as you were at that time)

[Jack_Simth]

Also, of course, killing a time traveler merely causes them to return to their own time - at which point they have all the time in the world to teleport back to the time that they died. Time travel combat is extremely confusing, and Teleport Through Time acting like some kind of psuedo-Astral Projection doesn't help much.Per The Spell In Question (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030416b):
However, should a traveler die while traveling in the past, the traveler's body immediately vanishes from the point of time it traveled to and returns to the point where the spell was cast at the time that the spell was cast. In other words, if a traveler perishes in a fire, the instant that the traveler died in that fire is the instant in which the traveler is no longer in that time period, and the body is never found within that location since it returns to the moment of time in which the traveler finished the spell and began time traveling.
(Emphasis added)

The time traveler is still dead. The body just goes home.

[Gemini476]

Per The Spell In Question (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030416b):
(Emphasis added)

The time traveler is still dead. The body just goes home.
Oh, whoops. Definitely misread that.

Although that does raise the question of how on earth it interacts with Astral Projection...


With your at will time regression you get younger each time you use it and you can not go in a past where you was not yet able to use a staff.(and you get as weak as you were at that time)

I meant for Time Regression to replace Forced Dream, not Teleport Through Time, since Forced Dream is a power from Eberron rather than something generally available for use in Faerûn. It's the thing that lets you loop time infinitely at the beginning of time rather than the thing that gets you there in the first place, in other words.

It's a really dumb way to stop Pun-Pun, but it's something. I think fails the old Pun-Pun challenge, though, on account of needing more time to get going than Pun-Pun needs to ascend to the level that he can stop you. Also, I'm not entirely sure how you'd go about getting an item of at-will Time Regression. You can't wish for psionic items, after all, and that's a lot of Liquid Pain.

[Jack_Simth]

It's a really dumb way to stop Pun-Pun, but it's something. I think fails the old Pun-Pun challenge, though, on account of needing more time to get going than Pun-Pun needs to ascend to the level that he can stop you. Also, I'm not entirely sure how you'd go about getting an item of at-will Time Regression. You can't wish for psionic items, after all, and that's a lot of Liquid Pain.No. But you can wish for scrolls of ice assasin of psionic creatures, use them, and then get Reality Revision that way - assuming, of course, that you can find a psionic critter somewhere with Reality Revision as a psi-like.

[Gemini476]

No. But you can wish for scrolls of ice assasin of psionic creatures, use them, and then get Reality Revision that way - assuming, of course, that you can find a psionic critter somewhere with Reality Revision as a psi-like.

I'm not too sure if that actually exists, but there's probably something somewhere. The only one I can think of is Pandorym's mind shards, which is a bit... yeah. Although I think those might just have it as a power known? I'd need to check my books. FAKE EDIT: yeah, it's just a power known.

It's not too difficult to get the hundreds of thousands of crafting XP necessary pre-epic if you set up some kind of Ambrosia brothel, but it's still kind of tricky. Also, crafting it will literally take years and something along the lines of half a million GP. Time Regression is a 9th level power, and that eats up cash like no-one's business.


...Actually, couldn't you just make a single-use item of Time Regression instead since the rewinding time should restore the charge? That's relatively easily craftable, and probably even buyable at a relatively low level. Wow. That's only 8,825gp for a Power Stone of Time Regression, although you'll need 17ML if you don't want to risk failing to manifest it. A Dorje is pretty much uncraftable, though, since you'd need to spend 50,000+xp and I'm pretty sure you can't craft them with less than full charge. You could Reality Revision a single-charge one up yourself for around 12k XP, though.

So Wish for a scroll of Ice Assassins of some high-level Psions and Wizards (remember, each scroll can have multiple spells), have them play pattycakes with a Wight so they have some spare XP, have the Psion Reality Revision up a one-charge Dorje of Time Regression for you, have your other Ice Assassin of a high-level Wizard Teleport you Through Time, and then get busy with keeping a timeloop going. Maybe make sure that you're some kind of immortal race, like an Elan Wizard 1/Psion 1. That's still slower than Pun-Pun, though, so I dunno. I guess you should just hope that he hasn't yet reached omniscience or prescience by the time you get to level 2 and can say "Pazazu Pazazu Pazazu"?


I think I'll also try to figure out something with Forced Dream and those snazzy psionic tattoo circuits, just to see if it can be done.

[ShurikVch]

"Pun-Pun ascension" doesn't work like everybody (apparently) think it is
Pun-Pun is not a construction of "stupid RAW", but rather of "overly reliant RAI"

[Jack_Simth]

"Pun-Pun ascension" doesn't work like everybody (apparently) think it is
Pun-Pun is not a construction of "stupid RAW", but rather of "overly reliant RAI"
The relevant passage from Serpent Kingdoms:

Manipulate Form (Su): At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconscious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude saves negates both the change and the unconsciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect.
A sarrukh my use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, sperantural, or spelllike ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanent. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind. (typos mine, emphasis and emphasis added)

It then goes on to talk about "typical" alterations... but the underlined and bolded sections are the ones that make pun-pun possible. Arbitrary Ex, Su, or Sp abilities are available from the underlined section; the bolded section can be readily leveraged to grant arbitrarily high ability scores. Then there's tricks using various published Ex, Su, and Sp abilities with all published spells to get essentially every ability a person could want.

But as I said: Magical stacking rules cause a problem. But then, Manipulate Form gives you the ability to give someone the "I win, you lose (Ex)" ability, because it's not intended to be in player hands, so...

[ShurikVch]

Arbitrary Ex, Su, or Sp abilities are available from the underlined section;They are not arbitrary; RAW lacks wording such as "any", so you can grant only abilities from the list... which is, apparently, don't actually list anything. :smallamused:

the bolded section can be readily leveraged to grant arbitrarily high ability scores.Yes and no.
No, there is no way to get "arbitrarily high ability scores" by this method; yes, you can still get them rather high (such as Str 100). It may be overly powerful to pre-Epic games, but still far from "arbitrarily high"...

[Gemini476]

But as I said: Magical stacking rules cause a problem. But then, Manipulate Form gives you the ability to give someone the "I win, you lose (Ex)" ability, because it's not intended to be in player hands, so...

Also known as the Collosus' (Ex) Antimagic, the Aleax' Singular Enemy, the Protean's Alter Shape, the Ochre Jelly's Split, the Tarrasque's Regeneration, all the various ways to get (sp) Wish X/Day, the Sarrukh's Manipulate Form...

There's a whole lot of those abilities, aren't there.


Of course, Pun-Pun doesn't just use Manipulate Form - he uses other tricks as well, like making several Ice Assassin of a diety, having those Ice Assassins make Pun-Pun a Proxy, giving those divine ranks to a squirrel (a.k.a. Nut-Pun), getting rid of the Ice Assassins and retrieving the arbitrary number of divine ranks from Nut-Pun to instantly become a serious contender on the divine scene. Or that's how I recall it, anyway. I know that there's an exhaustive list of what Pun-Pun has and how he gets it somewhere on the old Wizards boards.

As an aside, if you make an Ice Assassin of a diety that has Alter Reality as a Salient Divine Ability and that Ice Assassin makes you a Proxy, you get to use all of its Salient Divine Abilities. Yes, this means that you get an at-will Wish-esque ability. Deities with that ability include, but are not limited to: Bahamut, Boccob, Corellon, Ehlonna, Erythnul, and Fharlanghn.

[Brova]

"Pun-Pun ascension" doesn't work like everybody (apparently) think it is
Pun-Pun is not a construction of "stupid RAW", but rather of "overly reliant RAI"

Pretty much this. Manipulate form is an unfinished ability. It says you can grant abilities, but doesn't actually define what those abilities are. It's like saying you can "summon creatures" or "cast spells" or whatever. Manipulate form abuse is, essentially, the same as claiming that "win the game" is one of the "greater effects" wish can grant you.

Pun-pun is not something that should be a part of any optimization discussion, practical or theoretical.

[Jack_Simth]

They are not arbitrary; RAW lacks wording such as "any", so you can grant only abilities from the list... which is, apparently, don't actually list anything. :smallamused:

It also doesn't include language of "from the following list," either. It's completely open-ended.


Yes and no.
No, there is no way to get "arbitrarily high ability scores" by this method; yes, you can still get them rather high (such as Str 100). It may be overly powerful to pre-Epic games, but still far from "arbitrarily high"...
Suppose you have 10 wisdom to start.
1) Cast Owl's Wisdom on yourself. Your Wisdom is now four points higher, or 14.
2) Use Manipulate Form on your familiar, to grant it a Wisdom score equal to your own: 14. This is the familiar's new base Wisdom.
3) Cast Owl's Wisdom on your familiar. The familiar now has a Wisdom score of 18.
4) Have your familiar use Manipulate Form on you. It can now set your Wisdom to 18.
5) Go to 1, only this time, your starting wisdom is 18, rather than 14. There's no limit to this loop, so it grants an arbitrarily high score in Wisdom.

Rinse and repeat for the other five ability scores, using the appropriate spell instead of Owl's Wisdom. Manipulate Form sets the base score, and cares about the user's current score. It doesn't care about where they came from.



Also known as the Collosus' (Ex) Antimagic, the Aleax' Singular Enemy, the Protean's Alter Shape, the Ochre Jelly's Split, the Tarrasque's Regeneration, all the various ways to get (sp) Wish X/Day, the Sarrukh's Manipulate Form...

There's a whole lot of those abilities, aren't there.
A lot of abilities not intended to be in player's hands, yes.

There's not much that's as open-ended as Manipulate Form, however.




Of course, Pun-Pun doesn't just use Manipulate Form - he uses other tricks as well, like making several Ice Assassin of a diety, having those Ice Assassins make Pun-Pun a Proxy, giving those divine ranks to a squirrel (a.k.a. Nut-Pun), getting rid of the Ice Assassins and retrieving the arbitrary number of divine ranks from Nut-Pun to instantly become a serious contender on the divine scene. Or that's how I recall it, anyway. I know that there's an exhaustive list of what Pun-Pun has and how he gets it somewhere on the old Wizards boards.In no sense did I say he only uses Manipulate Form. It's just the keystone of the build. In fact, I even said "Then there's tricks using various published Ex, Su, and Sp abilities with all published spells to get essentially every ability a person could want."

[ShurikVch]

It also doesn't include language of "from the following list," either. It's completely open-ended.It's exactly what I called the "overly reliant RAI": "It's work like this, because I want it to work like this!"


Suppose you have 10 wisdom to start.
1) Cast Owl's Wisdom on yourself. Your Wisdom is now four points higher, or 14.
2) Use Manipulate Form on your familiar, to grant it a Wisdom score equal to your own: 14. This is the familiar's new base Wisdom.
3) Cast Owl's Wisdom on your familiar. The familiar now has a Wisdom score of 18.
4) Have your familiar use Manipulate Form on you. It can now set your Wisdom to 18.
5) Go to 1, only this time, your starting wisdom is 18, rather than 14. There's no limit to this loop, so it grants an arbitrarily high score in Wisdom.

Rinse and repeat for the other five ability scores, using the appropriate spell instead of Owl's Wisdom. Manipulate Form sets the base score, and cares about the user's current score. It doesn't care about where they came from.
Manipulate Form (Su): At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconscious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude saves negates both the change and the unconsciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect.
A sarrukh my use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, sperantural, or spelllike ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanent. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.You can't use Manipulate Form, unless you are sarrukh; sarrukhs are immune to Manipulate Form; so, either you unable to use it, or immune to it

[Jack_Simth]

It's exactly what I called the "overly reliant RAI": "It's work like this, because I want it to work like this!"

I suppose it's one interpretation that it doesn't let you do anything because it doesn't have a specific list. But then, the same logic means you can't Call anything with Planar Binding or Gate, because there's no list.


You can't use Manipulate Form, unless you are sarrukh; sarrukhs are immune to Manipulate Form; so, either you unable to use it, or immune to itShapechange. Change forms once a round between steps. Not a big deal.

[Gemini476]

A lot of abilities not intended to be in player's hands, yes.

There's not much that's as open-ended as Manipulate Form, however.
I'd reckon that spell-like Wish and the Protean's Alter Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) come close, at least. The latter is a kind of crazy all of its own, and will save you a bunch of time on the small situational abilities that you might not want to spend 2d4 rounds unconscious to get.

And then, of course, there's stuff like the Illithid Savant's list of entirely (Ex) class features, or the fact that there's a pretty good argument that spellcasting is an extraordinary ability. That includes epic spells, in some cases.

Manipulate Form is probably still be the most open-ended one, though, if only because it's pretty hard to make an epic spell without having lots of communication with a GM. They're a bit too open-ended.



In no sense did I say he only uses Manipulate Form. It's just the keystone of the build. In fact, I even said "Then there's tricks using various published Ex, Su, and Sp abilities with all published spells to get essentially every ability a person could want."

Oh, I didn't mean to dispute anything you said. It was more of an aside directed at the thread in general, I guess.

[Brova]

The most powerful ability in D&D is no XP cost wish. A close second goes to shapechange, because you can stack every single extraordinary ability in the game. Arguably, you should reverse those two because shapechange gives you supernatural wish via Zodar.

[ShurikVch]

But then, the same logic means you can't Call anything with Planar Binding or Gate, because there's no list.About the Planar Binding line it's completely incorrect:
Target: One elemental or outsider with 6 HD or less
Targets: Up to three elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 12 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart when they appear
Targets: Up to three elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 18 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart when they appear.Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) is a little more vague, but still there are certain borders:
Calling Creatures

The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
What's we see there?
1) Creature in question must be extraplanar, and susceptible to spells of Conjuration (Calling) school
2) Call not always equal control; go ahead, call Orcus, and he (if come at all) may devour your soul from the get-go

Shapechange. Change forms once a round between steps. Not a big deal.And all changes will go back with the end of Shapechange :smalltongue:
(Also, Shapechange? 9th level spell? Everybody tell tales it's possible to "ascend" from the 5th, or even very 1st level. If plank will be lifted up to 17th level, it will become much less insane - everybody are powerful at 17 level)

[Gemini476]

The most powerful ability in D&D is no XP cost wish. A close second goes to shapechange, because you can stack every single extraordinary ability in the game. Arguably, you should reverse those two because shapechange gives you supernatural wish via Zodar.

Nah, Wish isn't the most powerful ability in D&D. Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) is a strict upgrade, for one, although it's really tricky to get. You pretty much have to be either a proxy or deity, neither of which is all that easy.

Also, Shapechange misses out on all the extraordinary abilities unique to critters with more than 25HD and limits you to one set of abilities at a time, so it's pretty much strictly inferior to the Protean's Alter Shape.

Also, the Illithid Savant is still a thing y'know. And the Illithid Savant's class features are all possible to steal via the Illithid Savant's class features.

Also, epic spellcasting.


(And, of course, once you go out of 3.5 there's a lot of wonderfully overpowered abilities in other editions of D&D. BECMI's Immortals are pretty crazy, for instance, and that's not just because of the lack of an XP cost on Wish.)

[Brova]

Nah, Wish isn't the most powerful ability in D&D. Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) is a strict upgrade, for one, although it's really tricky to get. You pretty much have to be either a proxy or deity, neither of which is all that easy.

The real power of no XP cost wish is that it creates magic items of arbitrary power, which wish technically wins on because it creates a permanent item.


Also, Shapechange misses out on all the extraordinary abilities unique to critters with more than 25HD and limits you to one set of abilities at a time, so it's pretty much strictly inferior to the Protean's Alter Shape.

Actually, no. First, Reserves of Strength. Second, the relevant text of shapechange is:


You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

Or, you gain extraordinary + supernatural when assuming a new form, but lose supernatural when leaving an old form. So yes, you can stack as many extraordinary abilities as you want. That seems better than the four Protean gives you.


Also, the Illithid Savant is still a thing y'know. And the Illithid Savant's class features are all possible to steal via the Illithid Savant's class features.

Alright, I'll give you that. Probably slots in at better than shapechange but worse than wish.


Also, epic spellcasting.

I don't think that's better than magic items of arbitrary power. I mean, the killer app there is a Solar cascade and you can do that with at-will gate.

[Gemini476]

The real power of no XP cost wish is that it creates magic items of arbitrary power, which wish technically wins on because it creates a permanent item.

I was mostly referring to the first option for Alter Reality:

The deity can duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower as a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions). The duplicated spell has no material or XP component, and the DC of its saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) (if one is allowed) is 20 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier.


Note how that implicitly includes Wish as well as all other 9th-level spells, while Wish is limited to 8th-level spells or lower. They didn't really think things through when writing it, to be honest.


Also, the temporary magic item generation is kind of interesting in how it works:

The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures. This works like the Divine Creation ability (including the required rest period), except that the items or creatures created last 1 hour per rank. This ability cannot create permanent magic items or creatures.

As a full-round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions), the deity can create mortal creatures or magic items whose total weight is up to 100 pounds per divine rank, or with a total volume of 20 cubic feet per rank. If the deity uses this ability on a divinely morphic plane or within its own godly realm, double the volume and weight the deity can create. If the deity’s realm is located on a divinely morphic plane, triple the volume and weight the deity can create there.

[...]

The deity can create any kind of magic item except an artifact.
The rest requirement for creating magic items is the same as for the Create Greater object ability.


The deity must convert a considerable amount of its own energy into the object, which can leave the deity impaired. The deity can create an object with a value of up to 100 gp without impairment. For every additional 100 gp of value (or fraction of 100 gp), the deity must rest for 10 minutes. If the deity is creating an item on a divinely morphic plane or within its own godly realm, it can create a 200 gp item without resting. If the deity’s realm is located on a divinely morphic plane, it can create a 300 gp item there without having to rest.
(Emphasis mine. I'm going to guess they intended that if you're in your divinely morphic realm you need to rest for 10 minutes for every 300gp beyond the first rather than how it currently reads, but whatever.)

The fun thing with this, though? There's multiple ways out there to get a copy of yourself. Body Outside Body is a personal favorite. Who needs Wish to create permanent magic items when you can (as a standard action) create 1/5CL duplicates of yourself that each can create enough Rings of NI Wishes to kill a man by sheer weight? At will? Remember, Wish can only create one magic item, singular. Your duplicates will need to rest for years, of course, but that's not much of an issue when they'll stop existing in roughly 54 seconds.

Also, remember that Simulacra are core. They really didn't think things through when writing this.

Also I guess you could just create a mortal creature with 29 Charisma and make it into a Proxy and have it make all the items for you, but where's the fun in that?

[Brova]

Note how that implicitly includes Wish as well as all other 9th-level spells, while Wish is limited to 8th-level spells or lower. They didn't really think things through when writing it, to be honest.

I don't think you fully grasp exactly how good wish is. I mean, alter reality is close, probably close enough to be even, but wish is basically "you win the game". You can wish for an item of +huge to all stats/checks/skills/whatever that also grants you all spells with positive effects active permanently, all powers unique to magic items, and all spells at will with all combinations of metamagic.

It might actually edge out alter reality in some cases as it allows quickened spells and doesn't require rest. Or require any stats at all.

[Renen]

I don't think you fully grasp exactly how good wish is. I mean, alter reality is close, probably close enough to be even, but wish is basically "you win the game". You can wish for an item of +huge to all stats/checks/skills/whatever that also grants you all spells with positive effects active permanently, all powers unique to magic items, and all spells at will with all combinations of metamagic.

It might actually edge out alter reality in some cases as it allows quickened spells and doesn't require rest. Or require any stats at all.

But what he is saying is that you can use alter reality to get a wish every turn, with no xp cost, or spell slot cost. As well as every other spell ever. Then make them all permanent. How do you think God's walks around dressed in magic clothes where each strand is a separate ice assassin of themselves?

P. S. Last I checked, unless u are using extra shenanigans wish just by itself requires the following:
High enough caster level to cast
High enough mental stat
1 level 9 spell slot

All reality revision needs you to have is 1 divine rank. It both gives you the ability and makes you qualify for it.

[Brova]

But what he is saying is that you can use alter reality to get a wish every turn, with no xp cost, or spell slot cost. As well as every other spell ever.

Let me break this down for you. wish contains, among its other abilities, the following text:


A wish can produce any one of the following effects ... Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item ... When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

In layman's terms, that means that you can wish for any magic item. That doesn't have any restrictions like "less than 15,000 GP" or "no custom items" or "no use activated items" or whatever. It's just "a magic item". So you could create a ring that grants you Quickened wish at will. Or you could create an item that grants you +1,000 to all stats. Or you could create an item that does both of those things. Or, eventually, an item that does everything. That is exactly what alter reality does, except better in two important ways. First, you also get +enough to all stats. Second, you can use Quickened spells.


P. S. Last I checked, unless u are using extra shenanigans wish just by itself requires the following:
High enough caster level to cast
High enough mental stat
1 level 9 spell slot

Casting wish doesn't work for this trick, because it would cost more XP than anyone has to create the item. You need a SLA or supernatural wish, such as might be obtained by the Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell, the Pit Fiend's wish SLA, or simply buying a candle of invocation. Or invoking whatever that demon lord is.

[Renen]

Let ME break this down for YOU:
You can use alter reality to duplicate a xp-less and gold cost-less wish. Get it? Alter reality gives you ANY spell you want whenever you want, for no cost. And wish is a spell. Oh, and you are saying it's better than alter reality because it can be quickened, and then give an example of buying a candle (among other things)? How would you "quicken spell buy candle"?

"That demon lord" is Pazuzu. And I remember hearing that he only really likes Paladins. And by likes I mean gives wishes to. And by gives wishes to I mean corrupts with promises of ultimate power.

[Brova]

Let ME break this down for YOU:
You can use alter reality to duplicate a xp-less and gold cost-less wish. Get it?

So, alter reality is better than wish because you can use alter reality to get a wish? That seems like wish is doing the heavy lifting.


Oh, and you are saying it's better than alter reality because it can be quickened, and then give an example of buying a candle (among other things)? How would you "quicken spell buy candle"?

Uh, what? There are two parts to wish abuse. First is getting your wish. That's what the Candle is for, because it's the cheapest item that gets you a no XP cost wish. Second is abusing wish. That involves getting a magic item that gives all spells at will with all combinations of metamagic. That's functionally identical to alter reality, except that you can Quicken things at all and you don't rest after using metamagic. Also, you get +huge to all stats.

[Renen]

Alter reality is better than wish because it can make wish cost nothing, and have u finite uses. In addition to being able to cast any other spell just in case you might ever want to do that vs using some magic item you wished for.
And yes, things can be better than other things if they can duplicate that things effects, for free, in addition to other stuff.

[Brova]

Alter reality is better than wish because it can make wish cost nothing, and have u finite uses. In addition to being able to cast any other spell just in case you might ever want to do that vs using some magic item you wished for.
And yes, things can be better than other things if they can duplicate that things effects, for free, in addition to other stuff.

If you are using alter reality to get an XP free wish, it has to compete with that. And it loses to the Candle or Pazuzu, because using those is easier than becoming a god. If you're using alter reality as a form of ultimate power, it has to compete with a magic item created by wish. And it loses, because Quicken doesn't work, magic items are temporary, and metamagic requires a cool down time.

You are correct to make a marginal comparison, but your logic falls apart when you fail to recognize how wish abuse works.

[Renen]

My whole point is that if you give me a choice between having alter reality and wish, id chose alter reality. This is because it can replicate wish AND do other things. Plus, I think it's not classed as a su, sla, or ex ability. Which means wish won't work in say... Null magic plane, while alter reality probably will.

Now, why would I care if alter reality can't make permanent magic items in and of itself, when I can use it to perpetually cast time stops, have clothes made out of ice Assassins of myself, and then just use it to replicate wish and wish for all the magic items I ever need. Don't even need to quicken it, every fibre of my clothes has constant Synchronicity, and thus a readied action to use alter reality for aaaaaaaaaaanything that is done against me. And readied actions resolve before things that trigger them.