Paladin/Rogue Multi-class.

[Nibbens]

While perfectly RAW legal, how would you (as a DM) approach a fairly good role-player who wanted to do this?

[Keltest]

Its perfectly possible for rogues to be Lawful Good. Most rogue skills are quite useful in the hunting down of evil, as well as the protection of oneself and others. The only think I would find questionable is the sneak attack, and that would mostly depend on the specific code the paladin follows. And in a worst case scenario, they could just not be sneak attacking someone.

[Rhyltran]

While perfectly RAW legal, how would you (as a DM) approach a fairly good role-player who wanted to do this?

It would depend on the deity the Paladin follows. Usually a Paladin loses their class abilities when deviating from their alignment and a Rogue can be Lawful Good. The sneak attack may be a tricky thing to deal with but once again it depends on the deity the Paladin follows. The deity may not have any compulsion in what some might consider to be a bit "Underhanded" in how they deal with their targets. It really depends on the Paladin's code.

[Psyren]

BoED has a passage on rogues. Bolded bits:


THE EXALTED ROGUE

Exalted rogues, while they share the same class skills and abilities as their nongood kin, are as a rule not roguish in the descriptive sense. A lawful good rogue is as dependable as a paladin, and a chaotic good rogue might sing with the eladrin Court of Stars. Even lawful good rogues are not bound to an abstract and impractical code of honor that would limit their use of sneak attacks beyond the general limitations on violence discussed earlier in this chapter. The use of sneak attacks is no more evil than the use of a bull rush or trampling maneuver: when engaged in a life-or-death struggle against the forces of evil, use tactics that help ensure your victory. That said, a rogue’s ability to deal sneak attack damage with a subdual weapon (a sap, or a normal weapon if the rogue has the Subduing Strike feat) makes her very well suited to capturing foes alive, showing the mercy that good demands.

[Venico]

From a DM's standpoint? Make sure they were sticking within the confines of A) Their Deity's ethics and approval, and B) Within the confines of their own code of conduct. I'd make sure they actually had some RP reasons for it. Have the reasons fleshed out a little for when someone inevitably asks.

From a roleplayer/player's standpoint I think there are two paths you can go. You can start your character off as a kid on the streets who had to do what he could to survive. Either he finally turned his life around and made his way to the church, or the church took pity on him. One way or another he ends up at the church with enough understanding of the streets.

The other way is for him to be a paladin who realizes in order to do his job, he needs to understand and work like the people he is hunting sometimes. Like a cop who learns how to pick locks and circumvent the system sometimes in order to pursue a greater good/justice. Maybe he was tailing a guy one time and he just got away because of a trap he didn't see, or a locked door. Maybe he started out not really knowing how to street talk but after doing his best to immerse himself he's able to bluff and diplomacy with the best of them.

Sounds like an interesting concept though, if you have any more details it might make this thread easier. Like what deity the paladin follows, what his personal code is, what he wants to do with his rogue side. Like is he aiming for the skill monkey aspect, is he looking for sneak attack?

[BWR]

I don't see a problem with this. Nothing in the rogue description says it has to be a shifty honorless dog. So long as the paladin sticks to his code and god and is LG, no worries.

[TheIronGolem]

While perfectly RAW legal, how would you (as a DM) approach a fairly good role-player who wanted to do this?

I reject the implied premise that there is a conflict to resolve here.

[Nibbens]

if you have any more details it might make this thread easier. Like what deity the paladin follows,

This is pretty well defined in the Pally code of conduct info: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Many people keep mentioning "what deity the pally worships". I'm not seeing a place where worshiping a god or following an individual god's command is paramount to a Pally's class. A cleric does need to worship a deity, as becoming an ex-cleric involves violating his/her gods commands, but not a pally it seems. Am I wrong here?


what his personal code is

This information I don't have, unfortunately. If you mean personality, he's been rolling around in the CN end of the alignment pool for a long time (backstory wise) and is recently coming back to the "light of pally hood." He's actually started play with 2 levels in Ex-Paladin, and is now roleplaying his atonement moment in the game.


what he wants to do with his rogue side. Like is he aiming for the skill monkey aspect, is he looking for sneak attack?

We'll say he's looking for a sneak attack for bonus damage specifically for smiting the crud out of bad things better - also to be tumbling around the battlefield to get into better position to better facilitate this. etc etc. He's a moderate optimizer.

[Nibbens]

deleted...................

[Psyren]

As I pointed out above, LG rogues are perfectly fine in the game, and even exalted LG ones, so a paladin/rogue is explicitly permitted.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Using streetfighting tricks and skills isn't against any Paladin code I know of. "Honor" is a nebulous concept that doesn't always mean "fights Evil according to Marquis of Queensbury Rules", and I imagine the Paladins that do believe it means that don't last to very high levels.

I might side-eye him if he repeatedly and deliberately lies or robs someone for personal gain or deliberately murders someone who can't possibly defend himself, but all of these rogue traits (bluff skill, search/hide/move silently/disable device/sleight of hand skills, Sneak Attack) have perfectly valid uses for a knight of honor dedicated to fighting evil, even if they're not 100% orthodox methods.

[Venico]

This is pretty well defined in the Pally code of conduct info: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Many people keep mentioning "what deity the pally worships". I'm not seeing a place where worshiping a god or following an individual god's command is paramount to a Pally's class. A cleric does need to worship a deity, as becoming an ex-cleric involves violating his/her gods commands, but not a pally it seems. Am I wrong here?

Well here's the thing, Paladins are literally their god's champions. They are their mortal hands that shape the world and deliver justice. A paladin's code SHOULD be shaped with their deity and their ethics in mind. I personally houserule more of a Paladin having to stick more to his God's code and alignment rather than "Paladin must be lawful good and must never smudge the rules." but that's just me. I also often use their deity as a source of motivation/voice of reason as to what is right and wrong. Don't forget this dude is getting up every morning and asking for spellpower from their god. To me it makes sense that if you start doing things that the big honcho in the sky isn't cool with, he's going to have a talk with you and maybe stop giving you your powers/spells.

As a DM you should sit down and flesh out what his paladin's code is though. Is he forced to be celibate? Is he allowed marriage? What of alcohol? How is he supposed to act in combat? Does he have to read off a person's rights and announce his presence before apprehending them? Must he offer them surrender every time? What of interrogation? How rough can he get?

Maybe I just DM weird but whenever I am a paladin or am DMing a paladin, I make sure there is an understanding before the game starts between DM and player of the Paladin's code. I prefer to get it written down too. Because the last thing you want is a disagreement about what makes someone fall. Just my two cents though.

[Keltest]

Well here's the thing, Paladins are literally their god's champions. They are their mortal hands that shape the world and deliver justice. A paladin's code SHOULD be shaped with their deity and their ethics in mind. I personally houserule more of a Paladin having to stick more to his God's code and alignment rather than "Paladin must be lawful good and must never smudge the rules." but that's just me. I also often use their deity as a source of motivation/voice of reason as to what is right and wrong. Don't forget this dude is getting up every morning and asking for spellpower from their god. To me it makes sense that if you start doing things that the big honcho in the sky isn't cool with, he's going to have a talk with you and maybe stop giving you your powers/spells.

As a DM you should sit down and flesh out what his paladin's code is though. Is he forced to be celibate? Is he allowed marriage? What of alcohol? How is he supposed to act in combat? Does he have to read off a person's rights and announce his presence before apprehending them? Must he offer them surrender every time? What of interrogation? How rough can he get?

Maybe I just DM weird but whenever I am a paladin or am DMing a paladin, I make sure there is an understanding before the game starts between DM and player of the Paladin's code. I prefer to get it written down too. Because the last thing you want is a disagreement about what makes someone fall. Just my two cents though.

In 3.5th edition, Paladins do not need to have a deity that they pray to in order to receive their powers. They often do worship a god or pantheon, but the connection is mostly carry over from editions where they did need a god.

[Spore]

The only think I would find questionable is the sneak attack, and that would mostly depend on the specific code the paladin follows.

That is true but maybe then the code isn't suitable for Paladin/Rogues to begin with. If you want upright chivalry then having Bluff and Sleight of Hand as class skills isn't that good to begin with.


While perfectly RAW legal, how would you (as a DM) approach a fairly good role-player who wanted to do this?

Do you need help designing said character? A friend of mine made a very decent CRB Paladin/Scout Rogue with Dodge, Mobility and Weapon Finesse. Her sneak attack wasn't as much a cheap stab in the back but a lightning fast strike while running by.

As she's never in direct melee range and her primary attributes are Dex and Cha, her AC, roguish and social skills went through the roof. She had Diplomacy, Bluff, Stealth, Knowledge Religion and Knowledge Local very high. Her god was the paragon of LG (with a side of freedom of humanity from the slavery of the elves).

[Nibbens]

Do you need help designing said character?

Nah, my Pally/Rogue player has that end covered. lol. I don't care what he does. I just wanted to see how other DMs found the situation and how they felt about it.


As I pointed out above, LG rogues are perfectly fine in the game, and even exalted LG ones, so a paladin/rogue is explicitly permitted.

The Psyren has spoken! Close the thread! lol.

[Venico]

In 3.5th edition, Paladins do not need to have a deity that they pray to in order to receive their powers. They often do worship a god or pantheon, but the connection is mostly carry over from editions where they did need a god.

Since this is a Pathfinder thread I'll quote the Pathfinder description of a Paladin.

"Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."

Emphasis mine, but you are right that mechanically nothing is drawn from a god directly but rather the "powers of good". I interpret this as them receiving power from their deity but I suppose if a player came to me with a concept of a Paladin just doing what was best and the powers of good supplying him with firepower, I wouldn't have an issue with it.

You still need to sit down and flesh out his code though either way.

[Keltest]

Since this is a Pathfinder thread I'll quote the Pathfinder description of a Paladin.

"Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."

Emphasis mine, but you are right that mechanically nothing is drawn from a god directly but rather the "powers of good". I interpret this as them receiving power from their deity but I suppose if a player came to me with a concept of a Paladin just doing what was best and the powers of good supplying him with firepower, I wouldn't have an issue with it.

You still need to sit down and flesh out his code though either way.

Huh, so it is. I should pay attention to that.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Alignment is stupid!

Sorry, I got carried away with my normal alignment shpiel.

So, in the Star Wars EU novel Wraith Squadron, there's a line about the New Republic (which is still basically LG at that time) having lots of lightsabers, but no vibroblades. And in not-stupid-Star-Wars-speak, what that means is there there are a lot of Paladins, but very few of anything else. And the whole novel and resultant series is about the creation of this group of sneaky dudes who have the combat skills and stuff, but also assassinate, sabotage, steal and pillage. And it's still fine and Lawful Good, and the reason is Because It's Me Doing It.

Sam Vimes from Discworld might something close to what you're looking for. He's the chief of police. He's dedicated beyond dedication to the idea of The Law and defending it. He also knows when to pick a lock (and how), when to take a dude into a dark room and deliver some blows with a bag of fruit (and how) and, most importantly, when not to. There's never a doubt that Vimes is anything other than both Good and Lawful.

If it were me DMing for this character, I'd put temptation within reach a lot. Once a person accepts breaking the law in service to The Law, maybe it becomes easier to accept breaking the law, period. If you haven't I'd have a look at the book The Night Watch.

[Psyren]

The Psyren has spoken! Close the thread!

*bows*

Actually I was a bit hasty and missed the PF tag. But considering that LG Bards are fine in PF too, I don't see why LG Rogues would be any different.

Other than a bunch of responses saying "LG rogues are fine, and therefore rogue/paladins are fine, both by RAW and RAI" I'm not certain what you're expecting to get out of this though.

[Lapsed Pacifist]

This would work quite well as a 'hero of the people' type urban paladin. You can still be Lawful Good when you're smiting evil in the back of the head with a half brick in a sock.

[Nibbens]

Other than a bunch of responses saying "LG rogues are fine, and therefore rogue/paladins are fine, both by RAW and RAI" I'm not certain what you're expecting to get out of this though.

I'm seeking ideas and opinions. I have the things I'm planning to do, and I have the way I normally handle paladins, but I will never improve as a DM if I don't challenge my own ideas and see how others think. eventually I will see better ideas than mine, and I will eventually change mine or incorporate the better ones.

[atemu1234]

This would work quite well as a 'hero of the people' type urban paladin. You can still be Lawful Good when you're smiting evil in the back of the head with a half brick in a sock.

...Best. Imagery. Ever.

[IZ42]

There are certain comments I wish I had an upvote button for.

[Spore]

Other than a bunch of responses saying "LG rogues are fine, and therefore rogue/paladins are fine, both by RAW and RAI" I'm not certain what you're expecting to get out of this though.

I don't even get the problem with lawful good rogues. Last time I thought thieves are inherently selfish (and thus after D&D basic definitions evil) was when I started playing with 14. And then I just had to be reminded of Robin Hood. It is no insult but the though that rogues cannot be selfless is very old. You can define Han Solo as good after some time with the Rebels (he most likely slid from neutral to good after some selfless risky actions).

[GoodmanDL]

Faiths of Purity has codes of conduct that are customized according to followers of some of the deities.

A paladin/rogue who follows Sarenrae will operate differently than one who worships Erastil

[Killer Angel]

I'm seeking ideas and opinions. I have the things I'm planning to do, and I have the way I normally handle paladins, but I will never improve as a DM if I don't challenge my own ideas and see how others think.

Not the first time I post in a thread like this... :smallsmile:
If you're searching for possible motivations behind the concept, here's a background (of a PC of mine, spoilered for lenght).



I've always been proud of my Father: Thorvald the Just, Judge of the Salty Sea and protector of the city of Memnon, Armed Servant of the Law in the name of St. Cuthbert.
"Our Country is Home to Heroes" ... so tells the first verse of an old ballad, and my father said that I had what it takes to do great things. In racing, I was always among the best: running, weight lifting, wrestling ... I was strong, agile and intelligent.
Then came the outbreak of Purple Whisper, so named because the breath is a gasp, and when your lips start to release purple bubbles of blood, then you know that nothing can save you.
My father laid his hands, and he used all his arts to combat the disease, and the day I got sick, he did not bother because I was strong and others had a more immediate need.
In the morning, after having visited, He said with a sympathetic smile (but firm) "Today, you can still wait," and so, as I became weaker and weaker, my father was curing our fellow countrymen.
In the end it was all over, but the disease had marked me: no more games, I would have difficulty beating a child in an arm wrestle, and I will always have a pale visage.
But this year, thanks to my father, no one died of Whisper in our city, and the day on which stood the most evil, he saved the miller's daughter (with whom I later lost my virginity), and then I defy anyone to say that was not accomplished the will of the Saint.
If my strength and my appearance, had left battered by the test, my talent and my skills remained intact (the Whisper does not affect the joints), so I could put them at the service of the Saint.
My father had a lot of knowledge, and when I was ready, he sent me to the school in the capital, where, after having passed the exam on my moral rectitude, by the Paladin Hagar (the former mentor of my Father), I perfected my techniques of infiltration.
Not always the objectives of the Gods can be attained merely by force or clerical power: sometimes you have to hit the enemy with its own weapons, using subterfuge, cunning and deception, where the light of the Saint fails to arrive, then justice must follow other paths.
The day that Hagar gave to me the Holy Mantle that identifies me as a True Follower of the Saint, also told me, "If you would face openly a Blackguard, you would not be brave, but stupid. Cuthbert has given you many gifts that you have to use: move in the shadows, strike without being seen, kill by stealth. Do not care about the evil or the fool who will accuse you of cowardice. The important thing is the reason why you do it."
And I said, "So, the end justifies the means?" And he, with the patience that only showed to his students, said: "That phrase is the excuse of those who, in fact, pursue their own interests and perform abhorrent actions for questionable purposes. Remember that we are acting in the name of The Saint, and that, in a land without law, we have to be judge, jury and executioner at the same time; your verdict, must be the same of the Saint... Help the needy, punish the guilty, be merciful, but never let pity obscure your judgment. "
So did I, so do I, and so I always do.


I don't think this rogue would have problems, multiclassing in a paladin, and evolving its personality in something less rigid.

[noob]

There is even a feat for multi-classing paladin and rogue.

[Arc_knight25]

I thought Sneak attack was a form of precision damage?

You could fluff it as martially knowing where the weakest spots in their opponents armour is. As for flanking fluff it as working as a team to get those exposed area's shown. I don't see that as being unhonourable.

[Nifft]

I reject the implied premise that there is a conflict to resolve here. Agree.


I thought Sneak attack was a form of precision damage?

You could fluff it as martially knowing where the weakest spots in their opponents armour is. As for flanking fluff it as working as a team to get those exposed area's shown. I don't see that as being unhonourable. Heck, you could fluff it as Divine Insight Against Evildoers precision damage.

My priority would be in helping to figure out how to ensure he can get Sneak Attack damage vs. undead, since they're usually pretty high on the Evildoer list.

[Psyren]

My priority would be in helping to figure out how to ensure he can get Sneak Attack damage vs. undead, since they're usually pretty high on the Evildoer list.

It's a Pathfinder thread so he's all set - they are vulnerable to SA in this edition by default (at least, the corporeal undead are.)

[danzibr]

I see more of a conflict with Rogue/Knight (does PF have something like this?) than Rogue/Paladin. A Paladin's code doesn't have anything about not fighting dirty. I mean, if you're annihilating undead or demons, bring all the righteous fury you can manage.

[TheIronGolem]

I see more of a conflict with Rogue/Knight (does PF have something like this?) than Rogue/Paladin. A Paladin's code doesn't have anything about not fighting dirty. I mean, if you're annihilating undead or demons, bring all the righteous fury you can manage.

Yes, but nothing about the Rogue's abilities particularly need to be "fighting dirty". The game might call it "Sneak Attack", but it's perfectly usable in the context of open combat where it can easily be seen as outmaneuvering your opponent through tactical advantage. So it's compatible with knightly concepts.

[Vhaidara]

He meant the 3.5 knight class, which had a code explicitly banning attacking flat footed enemies and accepting the benefits of a flank (you could break it, but it cost you uses of Knight's Challenge and then stacking 24 hour penalties)

[Psyren]

I see more of a conflict with Rogue/Knight (does PF have something like this?) than Rogue/Paladin.

PF's version of the Knight is the Cavalier, which also has shades of Marshal as well as a scaling mount. Rather than a one-size-fits-all code, each Cavalier follows one of various Orders with varying edicts. None are explicitly incompatible with sneak attack, though certain actions can put you in hot water if you're not careful.

[TheIronGolem]

He meant the 3.5 knight class, which had a code explicitly banning attacking flat footed enemies and accepting the benefits of a flank (you could break it, but it cost you uses of Knight's Challenge and then stacking 24 hour penalties)

Seriously? Okay, I guess I stand corrected in the context of that particular class, although I'd point out that 1)there are ways to deny an enemy their DEX bonus without flat-footing them (Feint being the most obvious), and 2) you don't need to be a Knight to be a knight.

[Nifft]

Heh.

Or perhaps he uses Sneak Attack with subdual/nonlethal damage to spare the lives of his beloved foes.

Improved Unarmed Strike + Improved Feint => "Good will towards all men KICK!"
+ Improved Grapple => "Pacifist CRUSH!"

[Shadowscale]

This got me thinking,
Would a knight be able to multiclass into rogue?

[atemu1234]

This got me thinking,
Would a knight be able to multiclass into rogue?

Able to? Yes. Want to/Is it advisable? Absolutely Gygaxing not.