Mystic Theurge Prestige Class

[JNAProductions]

This has been moved to the Dungeon Master's Guild, as part of Magical and Other Prestige Classes.

[Takewo]

So, wait, how does that exactly work? Let's assume that I am a Wizard 5/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 5. According to your description, it seems that I'd have:

- The ability to cast spells as a 11th level caster.
- Access to Wizard spells up until level 6.
- Access to Cleric spells up until level 2.
- A few extra spell slots.

How is that preferable to a Wizard 6/ Cleric 5? I seems to me that you are sacrificing your already limited versatility in each class for a bunch of spell slots.

[JNAProductions]

How is that preferable to a Wizard 6/ Cleric 5? I seems to me that you are sacrificing your already limited versatility in each class for a bunch of spell slots.

That is precisely what you're doing. It's addnig raw power at the cost of versatility. I don't want any of the prestige classes I make to be overpowered, so that's the trade-off.

[Gr7mm Bobb]

I'm still a tad iffy on the idea of prestige classes in 5e, but I can humor. I do have to ask why the prestige class that combines a d6 and a d8 HD class features only gets a d4. And are there any other features that will be a part of the carryover for this? Things like mystic theurge levels counting for determining number of channel divinity, or CR limit on destroy undead, or even the abilities that scale with wizard levels?

[JNAProductions]

Modified so you get a lot more spells known. I realized it was pretty weak as it was, so now it should be better.

And no, just pure casting. It's the price you pay for extra casting power. Though maybe d4 hit die is a bit low. Thoughts?

[Gr7mm Bobb]

Ok spells known is its own type of versatility, so that makes sense. I would make the HD either a d6 for the full arcane spell caster feel, or make a d8 to follow up on the missed class features.

[JNAProductions]

Upgraded to a d8. You really are losing a lot, so it feels more fair.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I know I'm stumbling on this late, but I'd just like to say: I like it! And I'm not normally a fan of PrCs in 5e.

Mystic Theurge has been my favourite class for years - if real-life me was a PC, I'd be a theurge. This here homebrew seems like a fine way to approach it. :smallsmile:

[JNAProductions]

Do you see any balance issues? That's always my main concern with these classes.

Especially since you can take Mystic Theurge multiple times.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Do you see any balance issues? That's always my main concern with these classes.

Especially since you can take Mystic Theurge multiple times.

Well, you have to be at least level 5 before you can meet the prerequisites. Thus, you can max out Mystic Theurge three times. In so doing, you lost a whole raft of class abilities and you'd still be struggling for higher level spells. Let's see...

Assuming 16 Int & 16 Wis.

Spell slots:
1st: 4
2nd: 3
3rd: 2

Spells known:
3 Cleric cantrips
All level 1 Cleric spells
4 Wizard cantrips
8 level 1 Wizard spells (approx)
4 level 2 Wizard spells (approx)

Spells prepared:
6 Cleric spells
7 Wizard spells

Class abilities:
Level 1 Divine Domain Feature
Arcane Recovery (2)
Level 2 Arcane Tradition Feature
1x ASI



Assuming 16 Int & 16 Wis, proceeding with Cleric and Wizard

Spell slots:
1st: 5
2nd: 4
3rd: 4
4th: 4
5th: 3

Spells known:
4 Cleric cantrips
All level 1 Cleric spells
All level 2 Cleric spells
4 Wizard cantrips
8 level 1 Wizard spells (approx)
4 level 2 Wizard spells (approx)
4 level 3 Wizard spells (approx)
2 level 4 Wizard spells (approx)

Spells prepared:
9 Cleric spells
10 Wizard spells

Class abilities:
Level 1 Divine Domain Feature
Arcane Recovery (2)
Level 2 Arcane Tradition Feature
2x ASI

Question: Do I get domain spells with my Theurge levels? I have assumed not.


Assuming 16 Int & 16 Wis & 16 Cha, selecting Druid and Sorcerer.

Spell slots:
1st: 5
2nd: 4
3rd: 4
4th: 4
5th: 3

Spells known:
3 Cleric cantrips
All level 1 Cleric spells
4 Wizard cantrips
8 level 1 Wizard spells (approx)
4 level 2 Wizard spells (approx)
2 Druid cantrips
All level 1 Druid spells
All level 2 Druid spells
4 Sorcerer cantrips
3 level 1 Sorcerer spells
1 level 2 Sorcerer spell

Spells prepared:
6 Cleric spells
7 Wizard spells
6 Druid spells
4 Sorcerer spells

Class abilities:
Level 1 Divine Domain Feature
Arcane Recovery (2)
Level 2 Arcane Tradition Feature
2x ASI


Assuming 16 Int & 16 Wis.

Spell slots:
1st: 4
2nd: 3
3rd: 3
4th: 3
5th: 2

Spells known:
4 Cleric cantrips
All level 1 Cleric spells
All level 2 Cleric spells
All level 3 Cleric spells
4 Wizard cantrips
8 level 1 Wizard spells (approx)
4 level 2 Wizard spells (approx)
2 level 3 Wizard spells (approx)

Spells prepared:
14 Cleric spells
8 Wizard spells

Class abilities:
Level 1 and 2 Divine Domain Features
Destroy Undead (1/2)
Arcane Recovery (3)
Level 2 Arcane Tradition Feature
2x ASI


Assuming 16 Int & 16 Wis.

Spell slots:
1st: 4
2nd: 3
3rd: 3
4th: 3
5th: 2

Spells known:
3 Cleric cantrips
All level 1 Cleric spells
4 Wizard cantrips
8 level 1 Wizard spells (approx)
4 level 2 Wizard spells (approx)
4 level 3 Wizard spells (approx)
4 level 4 Wizard spells (approx)
2 level 5 Wizard spells (approx)

Spells prepared:
6 Cleric spells
12 Wizard spells

Class abilities:
Level 1 Divine Domain Feature
Arcane Recovery (5)
Level 2 and 6 Arcane Tradition Features
2x ASI


So, are they balanced? Hard to tell, but I call it a wash. The fact that the Mystic Theurge can't get level 5 spells into their spellbook until ECL 12 is a big drawback, but the added flexibility and slot count probably makes up for it. Someone should probably do a comparison of Cleric 10 / Wizard 10 vs. Cleric 1 / Wizard 4 / Mystic Theurge 15 as well, but I'm out of energy for now.

I think variant B is strictly suboptimal unless you take another 5 levels of Theurge, at which point it might edge ahead of a (beastly) 4-way multiclass. I dread to think how this interfaces with Warlocks. My feeble brain can't process that right now.

[JNAProductions]

You can get in at 6. It does not require 3rd level spells-only third level slots.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You can get in at 6. It does not require 3rd level spells-only third level slots.

Ah, did you change that while I was working, or did I read it wrong? I could have sworn it said "the ability to cast 3rd-level spells"...

I've re-done my working.

Wait, your re-wording makes my variant B illegal too, doesn't it? Eh, it's probably for the best.

[JNAProductions]

I changed the wording.

You only get domain spells for levels you have Cleric in.

[weaseldust]

EDIT: I had a long worry about sorcerers taking this class again and again for loads of sorcery points, but I overestimated how many they'd get and I don't think it's such a big problem now, so I deleted that.


I'd suggest making the requirement something like 'levels in an arcane spellcasting class and a divine spellcasting class' because otherwise the Magic Initiate feat could allow you to qualify without ever multiclassing.

Just to get it clear for myself, 'arcane' means bards, sorcerers, warlocks and wizards (and arcane tricksters and eldritch knights) and 'divine' means clerics, druids, paladins and rangers - is that right? Do totem barbarians and those monks who can cast spells count one way or the other for these purposes?

[JNAProductions]

Barbarians and Monks are not allowed.

Will make edits now,.

[Ninja_Prawn]

EDIT: I had a long worry about sorcerers taking this class again and again for loads of sorcery points, but I overestimated how many they'd get and I don't think it's such a big problem now, so I deleted that.


Yeah, a sorcerer loses out big time on SP.

I think the 'most optimal' use of this class might actually be Bard/Paladin, assuming you've not rolled awesome stats.

[JNAProductions]

Get all the smites!

[Silvercrys]

Here, lemme get that comparison for you.

Format is
<class (effective level)>
<Spell Level>: <Spells Known>
Spell Level 0 is Cantrips.

Wizard 10/Cleric 10
Wizard (10)
0: 5
1: 4
2: 3
3: 3
4: 3
5: 2

Cleric (10)
0: 5
1: 4
2: 3
3: 3
4: 3
5: 2

Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Mystic Theurge 15
Wizard (13)
0: 5
1: 4
2: 3
3: 3
4: 3
5: 2
6: 1
7: 1

Cleric (10)
0: 5
1: 4
2: 3
3: 3
4: 3
5: 2

So you trade most of your class features for a 6th level spell and a 7th level spell in one class.

[JNAProductions]

Sounds like a fair trade to me. You also get extra spell slots of a lower level

[Silvercrys]

Aren't they both 20th level casters so they have the same daily slots? Pretty sure the only difference is the lack of class features and 6th and 7th level spell prepared.

[JNAProductions]

You gain bonus spell slots for every level you take in Mystic Theurge. It's the Theurge's class feature.

[Silvercrys]

Oh! Yeah, I totally missed that. Whoops.

Yeah, seems fine.

I think you can get a 9th level spell in one class if you go, say, Cleric 1 / Wizard 14 / Mystic Theurge 5. Gives you one 9 prepared at level 20 and 2nd level Cleric spells with the last Arcane Tradition feature and 1 extra slot for each spell level up to 5th. That might be the strictly most "powerful" use.

Any thoughts on how it should interact with Warlock? It might not be too bad to have a Warlock 5/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 5 count as a Warlock 8/Cleric 4 for spells. They're giving up all of their Invocations and still 4 levels behind normal Warlock casting (which won't improve after nine effective levels anyway without Mystic Arcanum). Probably needs playtested though. Definitely wouldn't allow the extra slots to apply to Pact Magic though.

Or are Warlocks excluded perhaps because they lack the Spellcasting feature? Hadn't thought of that.

[JNAProductions]

Warlocks are excluded because they have Pact Magic, rather than spellcasting.

I didn't actually think about it, but there really doesn't seem to be any way to properly integrate them.