Casting spells right before finishing a long rest

[durrin]

So I've read this exchange:

The Seven-Sided Die @sevensideddie 9:30 AM - 9 July 2014
.@mikemearls How are Long Rest interruptions meant to work? The land is in confusion & dismay!

Mike Mearls @mikemearls 10:01 AM - 10 July 2014
@sevensideddie interruption needs to be a full hour. Testers: "We rest 7 hours, a kobold knocks on the door, and now we have to start over?

The Seven-Sided Die @sevensideddie 10:04 AM - 10 July 2014
.@mikemearls Oh. But that means combat will never interrupt rest, since a 600-round combat is unheard of. Why list it at all then?

Mike Mearls @mikemearls 10:05 AM - 10 July 2014
@sevensideddie there could be cases where it's valid - fight starts, now you need to leave the dungeon

The Seven-Sided Die @sevensideddie 10:07 AM - 10 July 2014
@mikemearls Ah, so it’s meant to be fairly rare, more “we’ve given up resting for now,” not just attacks on the camp.

Mike Mearls @mikemearls 10:08 AM - 10 July 2014
@sevensideddie exactly

My question is, IF you accept that (if not everything that follows will be moot) how would you as a DM deal with someone who wanted to cast spells right before the end of a long rest? I know the above deals with combat specifically but one would presume that means it also applies to spellcasting during a long rest per this from PHB pg. 186
If the rest is interrupted by a
period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking,
fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—
the characters must begin the rest again to gain any
benefit from it.

In my party I am a Cleric and I have been using the above to cast Aid on the party, which has an 8hr duration and boosts everyone's hit points. I always take the last watch and, assuming I have a spell slot remaining from the day's adventuring, then I cast Aid right before my watch ends and then wake the party up. Then our long rest is done and I get back all my spell slots.

Would you let your PC's do this? Why or why not?

[Kryx]

Would you let your PC's do this? Why or why not?
Nope. It's blatantly trying to gain more spells slots.

[durrin]

Nope. It's blatantly trying to gain more spells slots.

So would you say that them casting any spell during a long rest, at the beginning middle or end, would prevent them from getting back 1. any spell slots or 2. just the one they used to cast? If it's 1. I'd say you fall into the camp that rejects the ruling in the discussion from the OP and the question wasn't really aimed at you (see OP). If it's 2., I find that interesting (and not at all unfair). I need to give some thought to the possible implications of that...

And so I have. Imagine this common scenario. Attacked during the first watch of the night. Wake up and cast an offensive spell. Do I get it back at the end of the rest? What is the determining factor? DM's discretion on the PC trying to game the system?

[Raphite1]

Hmm, seems like a legit strategy.

However, if you're preparing new spells for the day after your long rest, that'll eat into the spell duration a bit. On p. 58 it says, "Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list." For a low level cleric that'll only be a few minutes, but above level 10 or so that can easily take over an hour, during which time the duration on Aid will be ticking away.

It seems like this time spent is all-or-nothing, from what I can find. If you don't change your prepared spells at all, you don't have to spend any time in prayer/meditation. If you change even just one, you have to spend the full time for all your spells.

[durrin]

Hmm, seems like a legit strategy.

However, if you're preparing new spells for the day after your long rest, that'll eat into the spell duration a bit. On p. 58 it says, "Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list." For a low level cleric that'll only be a few minutes, but above level 10 or so that can easily take over an hour, during which time the duration on Aid will be ticking away.

It seems like this time spent is all-or-nothing, from what I can find. If you don't change your prepared spells at all, you don't have to spend any time in prayer/meditation. If you change even just one, you have to spend the full time for all your spells.

I was thinking about that earlier. What do you make of this from pg. 58 of the PHB (Cleric class description).
You can change your list of prepared spells when you
finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells
requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1
minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

So I never thought about the implications of changing just one spell, that's interesting, but what I was thinking is do you spend time in prayer or meditation BEFORE you finish the rest and then change the spells AFTER you finish? Or do you pray and meditate and change the spells ALL after you finish a long rest? If during the rest, does that count towards your hour of strenuous activity (assuming you buy into that) or is it chillaxin? If you pray and meditate BEFORE the rest ends but the list changes AFTER the rest ends, does that open the window to pray and meditate, then cast from the list that hasn't changed yet, then the rest ends and the new list takes place? So you max out your Aid time.

Also, I'd say it's probably totally fair for the DM to mess with you about the accuracy of your timekeeping in a medieval fantasy world (no stopwatches or atomic clocks) if you start to try and cast all kinds of spells and rituals, pushing the envelope towards the one hour limit.

[obeseboywonder]

...
So I never thought about the implications of changing just one spell, that's interesting, but what I was thinking is do you spend time in prayer or meditation BEFORE you finish the rest and then change the spells AFTER you finish? Or do you pray and meditate and change the spells ALL after you finish a long rest? If during the rest, does that count towards your hour of strenuous activity (assuming you buy into that) or is it chillaxin?
...

I read it as being after the long rest, but could be convinced of allowing it during the rest if the total time was less than an hour. Seems strenuous, like very focused praying.

[durrin]

I read it as being after the long rest, but could be convinced of allowing it during the rest if the total time was less than an hour. Seems strenuous, like very focused praying.

So we meet again! Heh, thanks for the reply. I'm thinking this up as I go along so I edited a couple of my posts with some new implications. Please consider if you will.

Also, if it was praying and meditation during the rest, and it was strenuous, wouldn't you run into a point at a high enough level where it would be impossible to change your spells without interrupting the long rest? I'm not the best at math.

[obeseboywonder]

If you pray and meditate BEFORE the rest ends but the list changes AFTER the rest ends, does that open the window to pray and meditate, then cast from the list that hasn't changed yet, then the rest ends and the new list takes place? So you max out your Aid time.


I'd rule that after you pray and meditate you automatically have the new list. I still think RAW is that you have to pray after the rest to change spells, so this would a houserule, but one that I'd be willing to use if it didn't cause headaches.



Also, if it was praying and meditation during the rest, and it was strenuous, wouldn't you run into a point at a high enough level where it would be impossible to change your spells without interrupting the long rest? I'm not the best at math.

Yes, that's why I said as long as the praying took less than an hour. A cleric doesn't need to metagame as much by the time they're high level, they're a full caster after all.

[burninatortrog]

Sure, if you have spell slots left over from the day you can use them while resting. Trogdor comes in the night anyway. :belkar:

[durrin]

Sure, if you have spell slots left over from the day you can use them while resting. Trogdor comes in the night anyway. :belkar:

That's why you never camp in THATCHED ROOF COTTAGES!!!

[GiantOctopodes]

The way I view it is this: "A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long", combined with "You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest" means that if you use a spell slot in the middle of a long rest, you have not had the 8 hours of extended downtime since expending the spell slot, as such, it does not return. Now, since it's "at least" 8 hours long, if you cast it 2 hours into the long rest, and wanted to rest an additional 2 hours so that it's been at least 8 hours since expending the spell slot, I'd certainly allow that, but if after 8 hours from the start (6 hours from expending the spell) you call it quits, that's that, the spell slot is still expended. At least, that's how I read and interpret it, and how I would run it should it come up.

[Kryx]

The way I view it is this: "A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long", combined with "You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest" means that if you use a spell slot in the middle of a long rest, you have not had the 8 hours of extended downtime since expending the spell slot, as such, it does not return. Now, since it's "at least" 8 hours long, if you cast it 2 hours into the long rest, and wanted to rest an additional 2 hours so that it's been at least 8 hours since expending the spell slot, I'd certainly allow that, but if after 8 hours from the start (6 hours from expending the spell) you call it quits, that's that, the spell slot is still expended. At least, that's how I read and interpret it, and how I would run it should it come up.
My thoughts as well.

The other interpretation seems very metagamey and against the spirit of the rules if not directly against the rules.


And so I have. Imagine this common scenario. Attacked during the first watch of the night. Wake up and cast an offensive spell. Do I get it back at the end of the rest? What is the determining factor? DM's discretion on the PC trying to game the system?
To answer your earlier question: just that spell slot. Indeed to prevent the metagamey approach.

Now this attacked during the night situation is interesting. I was initially going to say all spells don't recover until 8 hours of rest after the spell is cast, but that's indeed questionable... I guess as long as they aren't metagaming it to try to get more slots they should get any cast in combat back.

[durrin]

My thoughts as well.

The other interpretation seems very metagamey and against the spirit of the rules if not directly against the rules.


To answer your earlier question: just that spell slot. Indeed to prevent the metagamey approach.

Now this attacked during the night situation is interesting. I was initially going to say all spells don't recover until 8 hours of rest after the spell is cast, but that's indeed questionable... I guess as long as they aren't metagaming it to try to get more slots they should get any cast in combat back.

Fair enough. Makes sense to me and is consistent.

[xroads]

Would you let your PC's do this? Why or why not?

Sure. But I like to give players leeway. It helps to soften the blow for when I inevitably crush them. :smallamused:

No, but seriously, I'm more of a rules lite DM. So if a player wants to munchkin the system a bit, go right ahead. As long everyone has fun.

[charlesk]

The only spell I usually do this with as a player is Goodberry. It's an obvious choice for making use of unused spell slots left over from the day's adventures.

[Kryx]

The only spell I usually do this with as a player is Goodberry. It's an obvious choice for making use of unused spell slots left over from the day's adventures.
Which is totally different than trying to get a spell's duration to last to last until the next day. :)

[charlesk]

Agreed. Even there, though, there are potential abuses. I voluntarily limit myself to the equivalent of 4 castings per day. (We do have a houserule that does away with the (IMO) stupid rule that eating one berry takes a full round, so I don't want to be walking around with 100+ of these after a day where few spells are cast.)

[durrin]

Cleric casts Aid each morning before his party wakes (and gets his spell back). They feel invigorated throughout the morning. DM has random encounter hit in the afternoon. Easy to work around. Although as a PC I'd rather be told no than the DM punish you for trying to be organized and tactical.

[durrin]

The way I view it is this: "A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long", combined with "You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest" means that if you use a spell slot in the middle of a long rest, you have not had the 8 hours of extended downtime since expending the spell slot, as such, it does not return. Now, since it's "at least" 8 hours long, if you cast it 2 hours into the long rest, and wanted to rest an additional 2 hours so that it's been at least 8 hours since expending the spell slot, I'd certainly allow that, but if after 8 hours from the start (6 hours from expending the spell) you call it quits, that's that, the spell slot is still expended. At least, that's how I read and interpret it, and how I would run it should it come up.

So then I presume any HP lost during a long rest wouldn't come back until 8 hours of resting after they were lost?

[GiantOctopodes]

So then I presume any HP lost during a long rest wouldn't come back until 8 hours of resting after they were lost?

Yep, that is indeed the way I would read, rule, and run it. Not saying that the opposite (everything comes back at the end of a long rest) is not supportable, but I find that to be the only 100% consistent way to read and interpret the rules such that you can't cast spells 10 minutes before the long rest ends and get the slot back.

[Raphite1]

The way I view it is this: "A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long", combined with "You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest" means that if you use a spell slot in the middle of a long rest, you have not had the 8 hours of extended downtime since expending the spell slot, as such, it does not return. Now, since it's "at least" 8 hours long, if you cast it 2 hours into the long rest, and wanted to rest an additional 2 hours so that it's been at least 8 hours since expending the spell slot, I'd certainly allow that, but if after 8 hours from the start (6 hours from expending the spell) you call it quits, that's that, the spell slot is still expended. At least, that's how I read and interpret it, and how I would run it should it come up.

On p. 186 of the PHB, it says that it takes 1 hour of strenuous activity to cause the players to lose the effect of the long rest, and to have to start the 8-hour period over again. It specifies that this 1 hour of strenuous activity could consist of casting spells, implying that there IS an amount of casting (less than an hour's worth) that doesn't cause the characters to have to start the rest over from the beginning. By RAW you could cast constantly for almost an hour and still get the benefits of the long rest. I realize that it's very hard to actually cast for a full hour, and so RAI may be that some lesser amount of casting is actually enough to reset the long rest, but it seems clear that RAI is also that casting one or two simple spells is probably fine. That's how I'd rule it. If someone wants to keep a spell slot unused all day and night in order to get a bonus that may or may not influence an encounter the following day.... why not? They made the sacrifice, and the benefit seems relatively minor, so go for it imo.

[GiantOctopodes]

On p. 186 of the PHB, it says that it takes 1 hour of strenuous activity to cause the players to lose the effect of the long rest, and to have to start the 8-hour period over again. It specifies that this 1 hour of strenuous activity could consist of casting spells, implying that there IS an amount of casting (less than an hour's worth) that doesn't cause the characters to have to start the rest over from the beginning. By RAW you could cast constantly for almost an hour and still get the benefits of the long rest. I realize that it's very hard to actually cast for a full hour, and so RAI may be that some lesser amount of casting is actually enough to reset the long rest, but it seems clear that RAI is also that casting one or two simple spells is probably fine. That's how I'd rule it. If someone wants to keep a spell slot unused all day and night in order to get a bonus that may or may not influence an encounter the following day.... why not? They made the sacrifice, and the benefit seems relatively minor, so go for it imo.

Indeed, but what I'm saying is that the rules say an interruption of an hour denies *all* benefits of a long rest. Losing HP or spell slots in the middle of a long rest, after they reach the 8 hour mark, per RAW they get back the HP that was lost and the spells that were expended when the long rest began, assuming it was not interrupted for an hour or more. But even if it was not interrupted, and thus they gain that benefit, they have not completed a minimum of 8 hours of downtime (and thus have not met the definition of a long rest) since they lost those HP / expended those spell slots. So if someone walked into a long rest with 2 3rd level spell slots left and down 24 HP, and then 4 hours into a long rest used the spell slots and lost 10 HP, after 8 hours from when the long rest began, since the interruption was not an hour or more, they would regain all spell slots but the 2 3rd level slots, and regain 24 HP. Should they choose to rest an additional 4 hours, they would regain the remaining 10 HP and the 2 3rd level spell slots. Were the interruption to be an hour or more, they would instead have regained nothing at the end of the 8 hour mark, and everything at the end of the 12 hour mark.

They're not starting the rest over from the beginning, it's just that they have not had a long rest (minimum 8 hours) since expending those particular resources. I personally find that doing it that way is consistent with the RAW and RAI, while still preventing balance and exploit issues.

[durrin]

I would never have read or interpreted it that way Octopodes, but it certainly is consistent and probably fair and would cut down on the exploits.

I thought I had you with the hp argument...

[Ralanr]

What level is aid? I'm AFB.

If I was dming (and I don't often do, thankfully) I'd base what was allowed from the current level. Low level spells during low level long rests? Either you lose the long rest or you don't regain that spell slot of you had one to cast with (which I assume they do. They can't cast a spell without the slots). Probably the latter because that seems reasonable to me.

High level would work the same, though I'd make it that any spell above 4th slot interrupts resting. Would that be too unreasonable? Maybe since you can't benefit from more than one long rest a day.

Cantrips (and signature spells for a high level wizard I guess) wouldn't interrupte a rest. Their supposed to just be things people can cast on reflex. Spells are supposed to be more difficult or complicated to cast.

[Sagetim]

So I've read this exchange:

The Seven-Sided Die @sevensideddie 9:30 AM - 9 July 2014
.@mikemearls How are Long Rest interruptions meant to work? The land is in confusion & dismay!

Mike Mearls @mikemearls 10:01 AM - 10 July 2014
@sevensideddie interruption needs to be a full hour. Testers: "We rest 7 hours, a kobold knocks on the door, and now we have to start over?

The Seven-Sided Die @sevensideddie 10:04 AM - 10 July 2014
.@mikemearls Oh. But that means combat will never interrupt rest, since a 600-round combat is unheard of. Why list it at all then?

Mike Mearls @mikemearls 10:05 AM - 10 July 2014
@sevensideddie there could be cases where it's valid - fight starts, now you need to leave the dungeon

The Seven-Sided Die @sevensideddie 10:07 AM - 10 July 2014
@mikemearls Ah, so it’s meant to be fairly rare, more “we’ve given up resting for now,” not just attacks on the camp.

Mike Mearls @mikemearls 10:08 AM - 10 July 2014
@sevensideddie exactly

My question is, IF you accept that (if not everything that follows will be moot) how would you as a DM deal with someone who wanted to cast spells right before the end of a long rest? I know the above deals with combat specifically but one would presume that means it also applies to spellcasting during a long rest per this from PHB pg. 186
If the rest is interrupted by a
period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking,
fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—
the characters must begin the rest again to gain any
benefit from it.

In my party I am a Cleric and I have been using the above to cast Aid on the party, which has an 8hr duration and boosts everyone's hit points. I always take the last watch and, assuming I have a spell slot remaining from the day's adventuring, then I cast Aid right before my watch ends and then wake the party up. Then our long rest is done and I get back all my spell slots.

Would you let your PC's do this? Why or why not?

I would rule as a DM that casting any spells that require slots to expend counts as strenous activity, no matter how much or how little you do it, and interrupts resting for you in particular. If you want your spell slots back, you need 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. Cantrips don't count towards this, because they're simple enough that you can use them infinity times per day. However, I would also rule that combat of any kind produces an adrenaline rush and interrupts rest, even if it's just 1 round of combat. If you sleep through it, then you're fine, but if you are woken up by it or participate, you need to start resting over to get the benefits of a long rest.

The main reason I would rule against allowing such a thing is because it's violating the spirit of the rules to try and lawyer the letter of the law. I don't need my players playing lawyer with me on crap like this. If I get the rules wrong, call me out on it. But if the rules are written in such a way that you can cheese out spells then claim you had a full 8 hours of rest after a short 1 hour nap, then I'm going to have to disagree with the rules as written and impose house rulings for the sake of sense making.

To extend the example however: If you had a spell that lasts more than 8 hours, and cast it on yourself or others before engaging in your 8 hours of rest, then it's duration would stick around for it's normal duration. Such that if you had a spell that lasted 20 hours, you could cast it, rest, and still have 12 hours left on it. I'm not aware of any 5th edition spells with that kind of duration though.

Edit: Also, aren't goodberries still awesome? don't they still count as a meal per berry? If nothing else, you could pass the excess around instead of eating rations.

[MarkTriumphant]

To extend the example however: If you had a spell that lasts more than 8 hours, and cast it on yourself or others before engaging in your 8 hours of rest, then it's duration would stick around for it's normal duration. Such that if you had a spell that lasted 20 hours, you could cast it, rest, and still have 12 hours left on it. I'm not aware of any 5th edition spells with that kind of duration though.


Hex cast from a 5th level slot lasts for 24 hours.

[rollingForInit]

I would rule as a DM that casting any spells that require slots to expend counts as strenous activity, no matter how much or how little you do it, and interrupts resting for you in particular.

That's not making a ruling interpreting what's written. That's inventing a completely new houserule.


Personally, I'd allow a spellcaster to regain any slots cast during an interruption as long as they rest afterwards. If a player decided to start abusing this by casting spells like Aid right before the long rest finishes and want to start the day with full spell slots, I'd throw consistency out the window and just say "No" to that. If D&D happened in real life, I think the amount of magic you could cast would depend on how much you rested. E.g. rest 4 hours, you can cast half what's normal because you're still tired. And if you cast more at the end of the rest it should cut into your daily budget. For simplicity, D&D hasn't done anything like that (thankfully). Makes it so much simpler to just have all spells slots return at the end of the long rest.

If a player started insisting that I'm being inconsisten, I'd tell to player to accept my ruling or leave, because really, I wouldn't be all that hyped on playing with someone who always tried abusing the rules.

[Hawkstar]

... actually, you're not really gaining any spell slots, since you're using one you already had saved. (You don't have the spell slot back to cast from until you finish the rest). It all kinda works out.

However, I'd say that you need at least an hour to prepare the spells. Yeah, you can get an extra spell slot worth of a buff for a day, but you won't be able to repeat the 'trick' unless you save the spell slot to cast the next morning, leading to 'What's the point?"

[Slipperychicken]

This makes nightime ambushes less problematic. Casters can keep a reserve during rests, then blow their remaining slots on healing and other utility (identify, aid, phantom steed) right before preparing new spells.

[Person_Man]

I basically ignore RAW and require 8 hours of uninterrupted rest (which may include any restful activity, such as meditation, eating, sitting in a carriage being driven by someone else, not Concentrating on a spell, etc). I think Mike and the play testers are wrong.

If a Kobold interrupts you 7 hours into your rest, then you shouldn't have tried to rest in a dungeon. That's basically the entire point of careful dungeon exploration (not alerting everyone who might live there), random encounters, and resource management in general.

Playtesters who complained about it basically had a video game mentality that monsters shouldn't leave the unhidden portion of the dungeon unless player's go and find them, and random encounters are an annoyance that shouldn't "ruin" their rest. That's a perfectly valid play style, but if that's what you prefer, then there is no reason to require a Long Rest at all. Spells and similar abilities should just be "once per day" and resting requirements (because most humanoids need sleep of some kind) should be at the DM's discretion.