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JackMage666
2007-04-29, 11:59 PM
Alright - So I have a request to you forum goers - List all base classes in order of effectiveness, and I do mean all (that is, all base classes released by Wizards, but not campaign settings, liek Eberron). In case you need references, here's a list of all the classes (in alphabetical order)

Archivist
Ardent
Artificer
Barbarian
Bard
Beguiler
Binder
Cleric
Crusader
Divine Mind
Dragon Shaman
Dragonfire Adept
Dread Necromancer
Druid
Duskblade
Erudite
Favored Soul
Fighter
Healer
Hexblade
Incarnate
Knight
Lurk
Marshal
Monk
Ninja
Paladin
Psion
Psychic Warrior
Ranger
Rogue
Samuari
Scout
Shadowcaster
Shugenja
Sorcerer
Soulborn
Soulknife
Spellthief
Spirit Shaman
Swashbuckler
Swordsage
Totemist
Truenamer
Warblade
Warlock
Warmage
Wilder
Wizard
Wu Jen

Wow... So, didn't expect there to be THAT many... Anywho, these classes are standard set-up, no alternative class features, just what the base class is. So, rearrange them from what you consider mechanically best to worst (leave flavor out of it, since a good writer can fix flavor easily).

Or are you not good enough? Huh, is that it? Chicken....

EDIT - Forgot Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, and Artificer

Innis Cabal
2007-04-30, 12:02 AM
All class's are good for a particular purpose so it is immpossible to really put them in an order.

Demented
2007-04-30, 12:03 AM
Mechanically best?
Depending on?
Who kicks the most ___?
Who is most effective to have in a party of four?
Who functions the most easily?
Who is the least irritating to play?
Who has the least bugs/exploits/undefined variables?
Any of the above, or otherwise?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-30, 12:05 AM
Wow... you're going to have issues even getting people to agree on what the "best" class is. Also, classes change over levels, so the order of effectiveness at level 5 will be different from level 15, etc.

JackMage666
2007-04-30, 12:16 AM
My thought, for what it's worth....

1. Archivist
2. Wizard
3. Druid
4. Cleric
5. Psion
6. Erudite
7. Swordsage
8. Incarnate
9. Favored Soul
10. Sorcerer
11. Shugenja
12. Wu Jen
13. Ardent
14. Totemist
15. Beguiler
16. Crusader
17. Duskblade
18. Dread Necromancer
19. Wilder
20. Ranger
21. Rogue
22. Lurk
23. Scout
24. Ninja
25. Warmage
26. Psychic Warrior
27. Soulborn
28. Warblade
29. Barbarian
30. Dragonfire Adapt
31. Bard
32. Divine Mind
33. Binder
34. Warlock
35. Dragon Shaman
36. Knight
37. Hexblade
38. Soulknife
39. Shadowcaster
40. Fighter
41. Swashbuckler
42. Paladin
43. Monk
44. Healer
45. Marshal
46. Truenamer
47. Samuari

JackMage666
2007-04-30, 12:18 AM
Just do what it in the order you consider best... Meaning, in a generic campaign, what would you like to play the most without pulling every little exploit you can to make it effective.

Or, as Demented put it, All of the Above.

It doesn't matter if anyone agrees or not, I'm just fishing for opinions... And I've not seen one done with the mass list as of yet, so I figure, why not?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-30, 12:29 AM
Wu Jen needs to be higher... It's basically a wizard with a slightly different spell list. Several of the spells are quite strong.

Dhavaer
2007-04-30, 12:53 AM
The Samurai needs to be lower.

JackMage666
2007-04-30, 01:05 AM
Well... I didn't add NPC classes to the list... We could do that... He'd still be a step above Commoner and Warrior. and, debatably, Expert and Aristocrat. I'd say lower than Adept, though, so that's another step.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-04-30, 01:45 AM
In the list above, Psychic Warrior should be higher. I've seen some pretty mean builds with Psy Warrior.

Also, any full divine or arcane caster would be more powerful than an Incarnate.

JaronK
2007-04-30, 02:10 AM
Okay, first I'm putting the classes into 5 tiers, then putting them in order within the tier. Note that classes do move around as they level up, but things usually stay pretty close. The tiers mean the following:

Tier 1: Can do absolutely everything. A group can be made up entirely of random Tier 1 members and still get everything done. Is extreamly effective at what they specialize in and is additionally powerful in many other areas. Will often completely outshine all other characters if it's the only Tier 1 in play. Can often solve group level problems by themselves with extream ease (such as a Wizard using Spectral Hand and Maximized Shivering Touch to one-shot a dragon).

Tier 2: Either very good at what they do, and what they do is flexible enough to almost always be useful, or capable of doing a wide variety of things. Lacks the raw power of Tier 1. Is still very effective and will almost always feel useful.

Tier 3: Does one thing well, but that thing is not very flexible, and as such will sometimes feel useless. Either that, or does a number of things respectably, but not incredibly well.

Tier 4: Either is very specific, doing only one thing effectively at all, but is not the best at that thing, or lacks the ability to do many useful things. Will often feel useless in groups. Either lacks the flexibility needed to be helpful in most situations or lacks the raw power to be effective in such situations.

Tier 5: Is inflexible, can only do one thing, and is not very good at that one thing. Will usually just be a drag on the party. Is not even capable of doing what the fluff says they should be able to do.

With that said, here we go:

Tier 1
Archivst
Artificer
Wizard
Druid
Cleric
Sorcerer <-- Note: The sorcerer is at the border between 1 and 2. With access to the best arcane spells, they have lots of raw power, but lack the versitility of the others in this teir.

Tier 2
Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Favored Soul
Crusader
Warblade
Duskblade
Swordsage
Bard <--Note: Borderline with Tier 3. The Bard can be quite useful in more social campaigns, but is clearly Tier 3 in hack and slash campaigns.
Knight <--Note: As Bard but reversed... in hack and slash campaigns they're okay, but outside of that they fall to Tier 3

Tier 3
Binder
Warlock
Spellthief
Warmage
Paladin
Ranger
Healer
Shadowcaster
Marshal
Rogue
Scout
Barbarian
Hexblade

Tier 4
Dragon Shaman
Truenamer
Monk
Fighter
Swashbuckler
Ninja

Tier 5
Samuari

Unranked
I don't have enough knowledge about these classes to place them.

Ardent
Divine Mind
Dragonfire Adept
Erudite
Incarnate
Lurk
Psion
Psychic Warrior
ShugenjaSoulborn
Soulknife
Totemist
WilderWu Jen

As is obvious, I'm not very familiar with Psionics. Some classes are very close in power (Crusader and Warblade), where as others are farther apart but it's hard to show that (Sorcerer is way below the other Teir 1s, and Bards and Knights are way below Swordsages). Note that this is placement for taking 20 levels in the class. Some classes make very good dip classes, but are less effective in the long haul (such as the Marshal, the Swashbuckler, and the Scout).

Generally, if everyone is within one Teir of everyone else, the group goes fine... but putting a Fighter with a Cleric is just asking for trouble. Note that core only fighters drop to Teir 5, as do core only Monks, for the most part.

JaronK

Khantalas
2007-04-30, 05:16 AM
The Samurai needs to be lower.

You're my idol, Mr. Keen. Can I have your autograph, saying "Samurai suck!"?

Dhavaer
2007-04-30, 05:38 AM
You're my idol, Mr. Keen. Can I have your autograph, saying "Samurai suck!"?

Enjoy (http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e100/Dhavaer/Autograph.jpg).

Sorry about the shoddy handwriting; normal size pens don't show up well on my scanner, and my felt-tip is huge.

Khantalas
2007-04-30, 05:41 AM
Wow. I never actually expected that, but...

Bookmarked to be used in random places.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-30, 06:04 AM
Here is my list, over course the middle is quite hodge-podge and most tied.

1. Archivist
2. Wizard
3. Druid
4. Cleric
5. Psion
6. Erudite
7. Psychic Warrior
8. Swordsage
9. Warblade
10. Crusader
11. Wu Jen
12. Wilder
13. Incartante
14. Totemist
15. Sorcerer
16. Monk
17. Duskblade
18. Dread Necromancer
19. Warlock
20. Dragonfire Adept
21. Dragon Shaman
22. Rogue
23. Scout
24. Warmage
25. Shugenja
26. Soulknife
27. Ardent
28. Soulborn
29. Favored Soul
30. Binder
31. Shadowcaster
32. Barbarian
33. Knight
34. Beguiler
35. Swashbuckler
36. Lurk
37. Hexblade
38. Ranger
39. Divine Mind
40. Bard
41. Ninja
42. Paladin
43. Marshal
44. Healer
45. Truenamer
46. Fighter
47. Samurai

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 06:18 AM
Why does archivist top out wizard? More spells to know?

InaVegt
2007-04-30, 06:26 AM
Why does archivist top out wizard? More spells to know?

The archivist can learn any divine spell in existence, if there are versions with multiple spell levels they can learn the lowest level version. Almost all useful arcane spells have been published in one domain or another.

AllisterH
2007-04-30, 06:45 AM
I'm going to piggyback on JaronK's post since he did half the work :smallbiggrin:


Okay, first I'm putting the classes into 5 tiers, then putting them in order within the tier. Note that classes do move around as they level up, but things usually stay pretty close. The tiers mean the following:

Tier 1: Can do absolutely everything.
Tier 2: Either very good at what they do, and what they do is flexible enough to almost always be useful, or capable of doing a wide variety of things.
Tier 3: Does one thing well, but that thing is not very flexible, and as such will sometimes feel useless.
Tier 4: Either is very specific, doing only one thing effectively at all, but is not the best at that thing, or lacks the ability to do many useful things.
Tier 5: Is inflexible, can only do one thing, and is not very good at that one thing.

With that said, here we go:



Tier 1
Archivst
Artificer
Wizard
Druid
Cleric
Sorcerer <-- Note: The sorcerer is at the border between 1 and 2. With access to the best arcane spells, they have lots of raw power, but lack the versitility of the others in this teir.


I would change the list slightly. At low to mid-levels, it is possible to have a 4 person druid only party handle pretty much everything whereas the arcane classes are still a little too brittle.

While above mid-level (level 11/12 and higher) the arcane classes get enough spells to handle defense as well as offense, the druid only starts to fall back when 9th level magic hits. My list?

Tier 1
Druid
Cleric
Archivist - This class is dependant on DM-leniency. If your DM's world doesn't have adepts/oriental priests or disallows the domain spells, this class is right above the sorceror in power
Spirit Shaman/ OA Shaman
Favoured Soul/OA Shugenja
Artificer
Wizard
Psion
Sorceror
OA Wu-jen

Basically, any FULL 9 levels of spell, spellcasting class that gets to choose their spells from a wide list are Tier 1. Spells are just that good at mid to high levels and more importantly, healing is just THAT important at low levels which is why the divine classes are at the top.


Tier 2
Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Favored Soul
Crusader
Warblade
Duskblade
Swordsage
Bard <--Note: Borderline with Tier 3. The Bard can be quite useful in more social campaigns, but is clearly Tier 3 in hack and slash campaigns.
Knight <--Note: As Bard but reversed... in hack and slash campaigns they're okay, but outside of that they fall to Tier 3


Tier 2 additions - the Miniatures HB warmage. When it got transfered to Complete Mage, for some reason they actually took some spells off the warmage's list. For example, the 3.0 MiniHB Warmage has access to Sleep, but it's gone off the 3.5 version.

The Psionic Warrior. Basically an in-built 20 level gish class. Slightly above the duskblade in effectiveness but you pretty much can substitute either one in a party and not notice the difference IMHO.

The rogue - I find that the classic core rogue can do a lot of things pretty well. Combat, social situations and dungeon-delving.

The rest is fine other than a few changes. The Healer is Tier 4 (core only cleric with access to Healing and the good domains does everything the Healer can.) while the soulknife is Tier 5 (so I can create my own weapon? Nice but that's it plus a few feats?)


Generally, if everyone is within one Teir of everyone else, the group goes fine... but putting a Fighter with a Cleric is just asking for trouble. Note that core only fighters drop to Teir 5, as do core only Monks, for the most part.

JaronK

Pretty much all of the classes are splatbook dependent. Give a cleric access to Libris Mortis and Complete Divine (nightsticks and divine metamagic respectively) and even a druid will feel small in the pants.

The sorceror-only spells from Dragon Magic and just spells in general from access to the Spell Compendium increase a sorceror's power to overtake the OA classes.

Dausuul
2007-04-30, 09:22 AM
The rogue - I find that the classic core rogue can do a lot of things pretty well. Combat, social situations and dungeon-delving.

Can't say I agree with moving them up to Tier 2, though. Rogues are pretty much textbook Tier 3 as I see it--they do a lot of things respectably, but nothing incredibly well.


Wu Jen needs to be higher... It's basically a wizard with a slightly different spell list. Several of the spells are quite strong.

Wu jen are nowhere near wizard power, mainly because they don't get nearly the spell list lovin' that wizards get. Wizards get new spells in just about every supplement, but wu jen hardly ever get any. Nor do they have access to a lot of the utility spells wizards do. If the wizard is Batman from the comic books, the wu jen is Batman from the 1960s TV show.

I'd put wu jen in Tier 3. Maybe--maybe--Tier 2. Certainly not Tier 1.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-30, 09:28 AM
Why does everyone hate samurai so much? I think they are pretty cool.

Artemician
2007-04-30, 09:34 AM
Why does everyone hate samurai so much? I think they are pretty cool.

Because you can create a Fighter who takes TWF, Kiai Shout and puts ranks in intimidate and you'll STILL have more feats than the Samurai?

Because "Samurai" is such a horribly tight definition of a class and it's not even good at doing what its supposed to do?

Because real Samurai are so much cooler? (Yari= made of win)

The list goes on and on...

Khantalas
2007-04-30, 09:40 AM
Why does everyone hate samurai so much? I think they are pretty cool.

Samurai are fighters with a poor selection of feats. That may be why.

AllisterH
2007-04-30, 10:06 AM
Can't say I agree with moving them up to Tier 2, though. Rogues are pretty much textbook Tier 3 as I see it--they do a lot of things respectably, but nothing incredibly well.

Which is why I think they should be Tier 2. There are all situations where these classes are somewhat useless whereas a rogue SHOULD never be useless. Won't be the optimal choice (unless you're focused on trap-disarming) but they are a decent choice in so many other situations that I think it should be acknowledged.



Wu jen are nowhere near wizard power, mainly because they don't get nearly the spell list lovin' that wizards get. Wizards get new spells in just about every supplement, but wu jen hardly ever get any. Nor do they have access to a lot of the utility spells wizards do. If the wizard is Batman from the comic books, the wu jen is Batman from the 1960s TV show.

I'd put wu jen in Tier 3. Maybe--maybe--Tier 2. Certainly not Tier 1.

Seriously have to agree AND disagree. While each new supplement incrases the power of the big 3 when compared to their respective OA counterparts, the OA classes weren't exactly paupers before.

Here's what's on their 8th and 9th level list for a wu-jen.
8th level - Earthquake, Incendiary Cloud, Repel Metal or Stone, Cloud Chariot, Horrid Wilting, Command Plants, Antipathy, Etherealness, Finding the Center, Greater Spirit Binding, Mind Blank, Minute Form, Polymorph Any Object, Power Word (Blind), Summon Monster VIII, Surelife, Symbol, Sympathy, Whirlwind

9th level - Internal Fire, Astral Projection, Dominate Monster, Freedom, Gate, Imprisonment, PW (Kill), Shapechange, Summon Monster IX, Teleportation Circle, Time Stop, Wish.

Now, a wu jen gets to choose his spells from this list and while it admittedly doesn't even compare to the PHB to say nothing if a sorceror has access to the Spell Compendium, it still blows any of the themed spellcaster (warmage, beguiler and dread necromancer) out of the water.

A wu jen can substitute for a wizard in a party unlike the themed spellcasters who need other party members to pick up the slack.

JaronK
2007-04-30, 11:18 AM
I'm going to piggyback on JaronK's post since he did half the work :smallbiggrin:

Feel free. I find dividing the classes up into Tiers really helps define where they go, and helps define their abilities as well.


I would change the list slightly. At low to mid-levels, it is possible to have a 4 person druid only party handle pretty much everything whereas the arcane classes are still a little too brittle.

True about druids... they're more flexible than the others in that they can function effectively without spells if they need to. With that said, Wizards can spam sleep at level 1, or colorspray, so while they lack durability, they can take out most foes before those foes can hurt them. Druids can't pick locks, as they lack knock. Also, the Archivist, Artificer, and Wizard tend to have more raw power available through most levels than the Druid, which the Druid makes up for in flexibility and tanking (yay Wildshape). That said, it's close. The big 5 are called that for a reason... they're quite close and all very powerful.


While above mid-level (level 11/12 and higher) the arcane classes get enough spells to handle defense as well as offense, the druid only starts to fall back when 9th level magic hits.

Wizards still have access to spells that are very powerful earlier (Celerity, Rope Trick, Shrink Item, Explosive Runes, the Teleport line, the Polymorph line, etc). That's why they're on top. Since Archivists can, with work, cast everything a Wizard can cast and more, they of course go to the very top... and Artificers can launch a barrage of firepower like no other when they need to, plus they, like Archivists, have access to every spell in existance (don't make me persist giant size and divine vigor!).


Archivist - This class is dependant on DM-leniency. If your DM's world doesn't have adepts/oriental priests or disallows the domain spells, this class is right above the sorceror in power


This list assumes the class is played by RAW. By RAW, adepts are the most common sort of spellcaster, and all of their spells can be taken for the Archivist (and remember, the Archivist can use their own Scribe Scroll with someone else's spell to create a spell... re-read the beginning of the magic item section for proof). Likewise, Paladins and Rangers are almost gaurenteed to be common, which gives another source of super powered low level spells. Clerics can give domain spells. But more importantly, a single Warlock cohort can give you every spell in existance. As clarified in an FAQ, scrolls made by a Warlock can be made of any spell, and can be made as Arcane or Divine, as decided by the player of the Warlock. Bang, this opens to door to every spell in existance... and that's why for raw power and flexibility, nothing beats an Archivist. Add in one level of Sacred Exorcist for DMM:Persist, and you're really going crazy now.



Basically, any FULL 9 levels of spell, spellcasting class that gets to choose their spells from a wide list are Tier 1. Spells are just that good at mid to high levels and more importantly, healing is just THAT important at low levels which is why the divine classes are at the top.

But a Wizard can summon the right thingy to heal, if they need. Or to tank, in the case of undead and the like. Still, as I said, the big 5 are very close to each other.

I suspected that the other full casters that I don't know might be Teir 1 (Shuggena, Wu Jen, full Psions) but I can't speak for them.



Tier 2 additions - the Miniatures HB warmage. When it got transfered to Complete Mage, for some reason they actually took some spells off the warmage's list. For example, the 3.0 MiniHB Warmage has access to Sleep, but it's gone off the 3.5 version.

It's still all attack spells though. I admit a few save or dies helps, but they get Eclectic Learning, so that's not a big change. Without any of the power spells (Timestop, Celerity, Polymorph Line, Teleport Line, Resting Defense Line) I don't see how they're any better than a good archer, which drops them solidly to Tier 3.


The Psionic Warrior. Basically an in-built 20 level gish class. Slightly above the duskblade in effectiveness but you pretty much can substitute either one in a party and not notice the difference IMHO.

I'll take your word for it... I still haven't played Psionics.


The rogue - I find that the classic core rogue can do a lot of things pretty well. Combat, social situations and dungeon-delving.

Can't do combat well... d6 HD, no special AC increasing abilities, light armour only, minor MAD... they just can't stick in there safely. They're too squishy... and let's face it, a lot of things are immune to sneak attack, especially if you're in core and don't have access to the various tricks that let you sneak attack more targets. I've never found rogues able to really handle combat. They can do social situations, but so can everyone else with diplomacy on their skill list (hi cleric!). And sure, they can find traps, but that's their one role that others don't do better (Knock>Open Lock). They just don't have anything that's gaurenteeing they are always useful, and having played a lot of rogues, I just don't see them as being that great. At least they're not ninjas though, right?


The rest is fine other than a few changes. The Healer is Tier 4 (core only cleric with access to Healing and the good domains does everything the Healer can.) while the soulknife is Tier 5 (so I can create my own weapon? Nice but that's it plus a few feats?)

Yes a cleric does the healer shtick better than a healer, but at Tier 1, that's a given. Healing is still quite handy. Healers are just inflexible and lame by comparison to a Cleric, but hey, the same is said of fighters, and Healers are clearly more helpful than fighters. At least Healers never feel worthless... you always can use some nice healing. Hence Tier 3. As to the Soulknife... I'm not familiar with them enough to put them in anywhere, but I suspect they're closer to monks, from what I've heard. Nifty abilities that don't really go anywhere, which isn't as bad as the Samurai's "my abilities are all completely useless except my first level one which is just a feat out of BoED" reutine.


Pretty much all of the classes are splatbook dependent. Give a cleric access to Libris Mortis and Complete Divine (nightsticks and divine metamagic respectively) and even a druid will feel small in the pants.

I'm just assuming equal level of access for this list. The list should mostly hold up in a Core only game (except the Fighter drops in power and maybe the Monk too). Should still be fine if you go Core + Completes. I figure if the cleric gets Libris Mortis, the Druid gets MMII, so it's fine, since the Cleric can rock out with DMM all over the place, but the Druid can take off his gear, Wild Shape into a Legendary Ape, put the gear back on, grab a stick, call it a quarterstaff (yay instant craft time), cast Spikes and Shillelegh, and show the melees how it's done.


The sorceror-only spells from Dragon Magic and just spells in general from access to the Spell Compendium increase a sorceror's power to overtake the OA classes.

Yeah, well, I did put him in Tier 1 for his raw power. His flexibility lack keeps him out of the big 5.

JaronK

JaronK
2007-04-30, 11:30 AM
Why does everyone hate samurai so much? I think they are pretty cool.

Many reasons.

1: Using intimidate to waste your actions in combat means not doing full attacks. When your class is based around two weapon fighting, this is a huge problem. That particular class feature, which is a major part of the class, actually hurts you if you use it, making it worthless.

2: Two Weapon Fighting is already sub-optimal, and Samurai are for some reason forced into it. However, they get the feats later than a Fighter or Ranger would, so they're not even very good at it. Plus, they have to do it with two specific weapons, which can be trouble if you find magic items that aren't those weapons, making them highly inflexible. The only way to make TWF viable is generally to gain some other type of damage that adds on to every hit, such as Sneak Attack or Insightful Strike. Samurai have no such ability. Thus, their main style of fighting, which you are nearly forced into, is worthless.

3: Their smite ability only works on one weapon at a time, which is silly when we're talking about a TWF class.

4: Their level 1 ability, which is the only cool thing about the class, is just a feat from BoED, so a Fighter could completely do that (as could anyone else) without needing to take any levels of Samurai.

As a result, a Samurai fails to do well at what it's supposed to do (intimidate foes and fight with two weapons), and those things are already weak choices. The class just fails. And that's not even getting into the rediculous fluff... Samurai fought with many weapons, and while the traditional weapons were often a Katana and Wakashi, these were not used at the same time. The Wakashi was much like a Soldier's combat knife today... a backup weapon to use when the Katana was unavailable. So yeah, this class stinks horrifically. It fails to do what it's designed to do... Tier 5

As to rogues: while they're supposed to never be useless, they often are. A Wand of Knock completely overwrites any need for Open Lock. Disabling traps can often be avoided by either summom monster 1 (triggering it safely and thus rendering it useless) or teleporting/flying/burrowing around it, all of which are pretty easy (especially the latter, as a Wizard can just cast Alter Self to become an Earth Mephling and burrow around the thing, letting others follow in the tunnel). Diplomacy is good, but tons of people get it, and undead or golems or an inability to flank leaves the rogue unable to hurt things in hand to hand... plus at high levels a d6HD light armoured class should not be in melee, as they're be crushed with one hit. Really, all they've got is trapfinding.

And let's face it, there's no way a rogue is anywhere near a beguiler in raw power. Even a spellthief can pull off more tricks than a rogue.

JaronK

Fax Celestis
2007-04-30, 11:45 AM
Let's see. In order of "Gamebreakingness:"
Artificier
Archivist
Wizard
Cleric
Druid
Wu Jen
Beguiler
Sorceror
Everyone Else

In order of "I Enjoy The Most:"
Totemist
Shadowcaster
Spellthief
Swordsage
Battle Sorceror
Barbarian
Binder
Warblade
Crusader
Everyone Else

Hey, look: no conjunction.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-30, 12:18 PM
Can't say I agree with moving them up to Tier 2, though. Rogues are pretty much textbook Tier 3 as I see it--they do a lot of things respectably, but nothing incredibly well.



Wu jen are nowhere near wizard power, mainly because they don't get nearly the spell list lovin' that wizards get. Wizards get new spells in just about every supplement, but wu jen hardly ever get any. Nor do they have access to a lot of the utility spells wizards do. If the wizard is Batman from the comic books, the wu jen is Batman from the 1960s TV show.

I'd put wu jen in Tier 3. Maybe--maybe--Tier 2. Certainly not Tier 1.


I have to ask... have you ever actually seen a Wu Jen played? Do you have any idea what they can do?

On their own... they suffer compared to wizards. Once you add in PrC's I have to say that the Wu Jen is better able to make use of them.

If that doesn't sway you, maybe this will:

Colossal-Sized Intelligent Flaming Tornado. That can cast spells - in that form. And do all the usual "OMG broken cheese!" wizard combos." And can rip purple worms out of the ground and throw them for damage. It can also set fire to your soul.

Felius
2007-04-30, 01:20 PM
Question: And the samurai from Oriental Adventures? Ok, that it's basically a fighter with cheap magical weapons, and less feats, but seems better then nothing.

Jack Mann
2007-04-30, 01:25 PM
No, this is the samurai from Complete Warrior, who's not much better than a warrior.

CoolMatthew
2007-04-30, 01:39 PM
If the wizard is Batman from the comic books, the wu jen is Batman from the 1960s TV show.

Get in my SIG!

Felius
2007-04-30, 01:43 PM
No, this is the samurai from Complete Warrior, who's not much better than a warrior.

I know. My question is where the Oriental Adventures' Samurai would fit in this list.

JaronK
2007-04-30, 01:45 PM
Let's see. In order of "Gamebreakingness:"
Artificier
Archivist
Wizard
Cleric
Druid
Wu Jen
Beguiler
Sorceror
Everyone Else

In order of "I Enjoy The Most:"
Totemist
Shadowcaster
Spellthief
Swordsage
Battle Sorceror
Barbarian
Binder
Warblade
Crusader
Everyone Else

Hey, look: no conjunction.

Actually, your favorites look to be mostly Tier 2, so actually they're up there on power. And Battle Sorcerer is just a varient of a Tier 1 class, and is right in there with the game breakers.

JaronK

JaronK
2007-04-30, 01:47 PM
I know. My question is where the Oriental Adventures' Samurai would fit in this list.

I'd say Tier 4, below the fighter. As I recall he's basically just a fighter with fewer feats, and his first level feat has to be the Ancestral Relic feat from BoED.

So still pretty crappy, but not as bad as the CW Samurai.

JaronK

Fax Celestis
2007-04-30, 02:00 PM
Actually, your favorites look to be mostly Tier 2, so actually they're up there on power. And Battle Sorcerer is just a varient of a Tier 1 class, and is right in there with the game breakers.

JaronK

Battle Sorceror--particulary in conjunction with the Stalwart Sorceror variant in CMage and the Metamagic Specialist variant in PHB-II--is pretty solidly Tier 2, in my opinion. He's got some tricks he can do, but when it comes down to the wire, he's a fighter-type.

And yes, most of my preferences are indeed Tier 2, since I much prefer being moderately effective to being either a game-hog (a la Tier 1) or the party's whipping boy (a la Tier 3-4).

JaronK
2007-04-30, 02:07 PM
Battle Sorceror--particulary in conjunction with the Stalwart Sorceror variant in CMage and the Metamagic Specialist variant in PHB-II--is pretty solidly Tier 2, in my opinion. He's got some tricks he can do, but when it comes down to the wire, he's a fighter-type.

Just because you build him oddly doesn't change the fact that he has access to the best of the 9th level spells. If you can cast Shapechange, Timestop, and Gate, you're Tier 1. With Runestaffs, you can pretty much cast anything. Just because you've decided he's a tank doesn't change the fact that he's got a heck of a lot of raw power.


And yes, most of my preferences are indeed Tier 2, since I much prefer being moderately effective to being either a game-hog (a la Tier 1) or the party's whipping boy (a la Tier 3-4).

Still, claiming there's no overlap with the top tier power classes when one of your choices does overlap and the others are right behind is a bit... sketchy. It sounds like one of those "see, I'm not a powergamer, I just pick the things that are almost the best, not the complete best!" sorts of arguements.

JaronK

Fax Celestis
2007-04-30, 02:27 PM
True enough when it comes to the BSorc. I'd still put him towards the bottom of Tier 1, though, since he has a fairly limited selection of spellls (and a limited number of uses on them per day, also).

Also, I'm not arguing that I'm not a powergamer; I am. However, I don't find enjoyment in "winning the game". I find enjoyment in looking awesome and making my party succeed--part of the reason the Tier 3 Shadowcaster and Spellthief are so high on my list.

"But you're a powergamer! How could you not like the classes that Win D&D?" My answer is as follows: I find it fulfilling to take a class that isn't glorious by default and make it shine. Anyone can be excellent with a wizard; not everyone can be excellent with a spellthief.