So over the last 48 hours we play tested the Mystic hard, this is what we have found

[CyberThread]

Level 1-3 are sorta boring level 5 was a damn snooze fest. This is a playtest of 4 different players trying out the mystic class.


Not enough variety in choices you get to really have "fun", so here is the abilties and our complaints.


Spellpoint Mana system : No big deal, nice to have everything as one giant pot of points rather then each having singular abilties to run off of.


"Power/Disciples variety" this is really tight and rather kind of boring. Immortal gets some interesting abilties for combat but for something meant to feel spell like or ki enhanced combat, they feel boring. The abilties are powerful but the lack of real "selection " makes them feel very predetermined and bland. The power is a thing but the fun is straight jacketed.

Mind Thrust: Not as big a deal as you would think. Getting around blocks and the like is really nice as is removing the hide, but you are doing very low "plinking" damage. You can expended extra points to do some nice damage, but the consistent higher level damage other casters cantrips do, plus the ability to pick blaster spells that do different styles of damage "Fire Wall, Fireball" makes this ability really limited as the sole damage spell this discipline gets.






Immortals various abilties: Nice burst damage, having your sword turn into various damage styles is nice in D&D's low magic item world. The self heal until your half your life points can help at times, the abilties are very much " I get to do something first!" the problem is with only one sword swing, subpar health , and the lack of magical tricks to make you a decent second line fighter. These abilties feel like your trying to get to the party first, and once you arrive you have nothing to do. Again feels like a straight jacket.



Awakened Minds Various abilties: Psychic mind is nice, useful scout and secretive ability. Object reading seems like a really cool ability, but you quickly find it out it is a class ability hidden away as just another way for the DM to push the story or plot forward.


The disciplines are meh... Intellectual fortress is nice for a highly defensive ability but it seriously needs some stuff you can do when not being attacked. Third eye is neat, but feels like it should have been given to the immortal for being upclose and personal. Awakened Mind, seems VERY geared towards someone who wants to play Sherlock Holmes which can be bad when you have things like bards rogues, and other CHA heavy classes with an actual skill set to match them.




Overall Abilities: Strength of Mind not as big a deal as you would think. It is nice for when you think you will face something very nasty that day, but it is a rather big passive for preventing ones fun from being ruined rather then creating fun.

Overshadowing other classes: Awakened mind will not overshadow anyone, and players will get very bored with it quick, if they are playing in a group that is very combat focused. If you are doing poltical fun, this class choice really shines for the rolenotroll crowd.

Immortal, not as badass as it really seemed. You get a very narrow set of abilties, you get to shine once in a blue moon with all that lovely nova damage, but you sort of shrink away swinging your sword the rest of the day while the other combaters are doing the same with a skill set that grants things to the side.



Mystic overall, seems like something great on paper, but seem so far very niche roles that if the player doesn't know what they are expecting they may be very soon asking for the DM to let them make a new character. This class is saved greatly by the background system, as you will need to lean heavily on it to flesh out the base character.

[Ralanr]

Note to self: stop getting worked up over theories and paper.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'll try and test it out with a few friends in the future.

Gotta help along the new class one way or another.

[obeseboywonder]

Interesting write up. I'll need to try it out to see if I agree, but yeah, whiteroom theorycrafting does tend to overestimate/underestimate a lot of abilities.

[numerek]

Do you have threads for the other classes similar to this one? If so could you link to them?

[CyberThread]

Do you have threads for the other classes similar to this one? If so could you link to them?

When things first gone done they were done in the hayday with the previews and break down. I have not done any of the other classes yet, but the guides sort of already covered the published classes. Any requests?

[Once a Fool]

Did you try this with multiclass characters? Because that's where the truly broken stuff seems to be.

Especially with the Fighter 11+/Immortal 5. Up to 11 attacks in a turn (hasted by a friendly caster + bonus action attack) twice a short rest + regeneration when needed as early as level 3 is just...better than a straight fighter of equivalent level. I think, as written, that regeneration would even stack with the champion's, since they're different...

But, hey, maybe playtesting would show that it's not as bad as it looks.

[numerek]

When things first gone done they were done in the hayday with the previews and break down. I have not done any of the other classes yet, but the guides sort of already covered the published classes. Any requests?

Well you said that class is "rather kind of boring", I'm wondering if it is more boring than other classes, where does it fall on the boring-o-meter. fighter champion I'm thinking would be considered a pretty boring class, even battle master you only get a few maneuvers and 4 dice per short rest which would run out fast, eldritch knight you have options but as a 1/3 caster you can't use those options very often. Barbarian also doesn't give a lot of choices. Monk gets to attack a lot, occasionally the monk I've seen bonus action dodges and has caught and thrown back ranged attacks he went way of the shadow and has never cast a spell and hasn't really used the teleport feature yet. Paladin and ranger level 1 are pretty meh after that paladin gets a number of tricks but I think the ranger is little better than eldritch knight as far as options go maybe worse. Of the full casters sorcerer is probably the most limited(unless you use unearthed arcana). I would say the rest of the classes have quite a few options, rogues mainly because they have so many skills + expertise and cunning action.

[Dontdestroyme]

Did you try this with multiclass characters? Because that's where the truly broken stuff seems to be.

Especially with the Fighter 11+/Immortal 5. Up to 11 attacks in a turn (hasted by a friendly caster + bonus action attack) twice a short rest + regeneration when needed as early as level 3 is just...better than a straight fighter of equivalent level. I think, as written, that regeneration would even stack with the champion's, since they're different...

But, hey, maybe playtesting would show that it's not as bad as it looks.

Technically I think it caps at 9: attack action is 3, action surge 6, bonus action to use whaever that ability is for 5 points is 9. Then you're out of actions and bonus actions.

[Once a Fool]

Technically I think it caps at 9: attack action is 3, action surge 6, bonus action to use whaever that ability is for 5 points is 9. Then you're out of actions and bonus actions.

Yup. Trying to beat the storms while typing on my phone. Completely forgot the Immortal's extra action uses a bonus action. Still seems crazy-powerful, though. Especially with GWM or Sharpshooter.

[numerek]

Technically I think it caps at 9: attack action is 3, action surge 6, bonus action to use whaever that ability is for 5 points is 9. Then you're out of actions and bonus actions.

you could still haste action for another attack so 10 of course as said the haste would be concentrated on by someone else. you could also throw in 3 levels of ranger for that one that gives you an extra attack on someone within 5 feet, 11 fighter / 5 mystic / 3 ranger. you could do 10 at level 11 with 2 warlock / 5 mystic / 2 fighter / 2 anything, but you can do the same thing with 2 warlock / 2 fighter / 3 sorcerer / 4 anything. and I would think 2 sorcerer points is less than 5 psi points. and 13 at 17th level same with 10 anything(sorcerer) or 8 anything(mystic).

[eleazzaar]

Ok, you think it is boring-- message received.

Can you describe it a little less subjectively-- in comparison to existing classes? Give details about what level you were at? What you fought, who else was in the party?

Most importantly how did it stack up in usefulness against official classes?

[CyberThread]

Most importantly how did it stack up in usefulness against official classes?

Everything from the damage, to the class skill set was covered in the post.

[HoarsHalberd]

Yup. Trying to beat the storms while typing on my phone. Completely forgot the Immortal's extra action uses a bonus action. Still seems crazy-powerful, though. Especially with GWM or Sharpshooter.

Thing is you have enough points to do it 5 times in one day at most. After which you're essentially running a weak fighter with better saves.

At level 20 a pure fighter can do up to 8 attacks + bonus action attack if available twice per short rest. Which averages out to 6-8 times a day on average. So they gain 6(4) bonus attacks from their abilities and hence get 24.

At 15+5 the fighter can do 9 attacks once per short rest which averages out to 3-4 times, with 1-2 chances to do 6 attacks. So essentially they gain 8(3) bonus attacks from the ability or 24.

Rounds where you're not using action surge or the mystic ability, the fighter will be doing 25-20% more DPR depending if they have access to bonus action attacks.

Mystic is incompatible with other concentration abilities such as haste.

Essentially you trade delayed progression and being weaker at level 20 for a peak in power at level 16.

Other combinations suggested were warlock for EB spam.

Warlock at 20 = 4(d10+d6+5) = 56 damage against a target you're auto hitting against (it's not useful for comparing multiple abilities but for DPR in a vacuum it's fine)

Warlock+sorcerer at 20 = 112 damage against a target you're auto hitting and also has the advantage of SAD and more uses per day.

Warlock+mystic = 8(d10+5) = 84 damage as you can't get hex due to concentration.

It's really not as big a deal as you'd expect from what we've seen. However if the points per level are multiplicative after level 5 then a 50/50 multiclass may turn into a bit of a problem.

[GiantOctopodes]

At level 20 a pure fighter can do up to 8 attacks + bonus action attack if available twice per short rest. Which averages out to 6-8 times a day on average. So they gain 6(4) bonus attacks from their abilities and hence get 24.


The thing that's funny to me is everyone always compares the capabilities of a lvl 20 fighter, seemingly ignoring that level 20 is only 5% (at most) of the game, if it's seen at all.

IMHO it's much more reasonable to compare a Fighter 16 vs a Fighter 11/Mystic 5. Level 16 might actually be seen in a game, and those comparisons would stand true for 16, 17, 18, and 19 (20% of the game) vs just 5%. Just my 2cp.

[Ralanr]

The thing that's funny to me is everyone always compares the capabilities of a lvl 20 fighter, seemingly ignoring that level 20 is only 5% (at most) of the game, if it's seen at all.

IMHO it's much more reasonable to compare a Fighter 16 vs a Fighter 11/Mystic 5. Level 16 might actually be seen in a game, and those comparisons would stand true for 16, 17, 18, and 19 (20% of the game) vs just 5%. Just my 2cp.

It's probably because everyone is supposed to be relatively equal at cap.

It is silly though. It's not as though 20 is easy to reach. It's not supposed to be anyway.

[Hawkstar]

Note to self: stop getting worked up over theories and paper.

Leave this forum, blasphemer. :smallmad:


:smalltongue:

[HoarsHalberd]

The thing that's funny to me is everyone always compares the capabilities of a lvl 20 fighter, seemingly ignoring that level 20 is only 5% (at most) of the game, if it's seen at all.

IMHO it's much more reasonable to compare a Fighter 16 vs a Fighter 11/Mystic 5. Level 16 might actually be seen in a game, and those comparisons would stand true for 16, 17, 18, and 19 (20% of the game) vs just 5%. Just my 2cp.

No they wouldn't stand true for 17 18 or 19. 16 is the peak of the combos power, before action surge gets it second use per short rest at 17 which makes up most of the difference. At level 17 with two short rests a day the combo only gains 6 attacks more than the fighter. Even less if the fighter has means of gaining a bonus action attack. If both use polearm mastery the mystic/fighter gains 1 attack a day and larger hit die on 5 (d10 vs d4) meaning d10+5 and another 10 from hit die difference. 21.5 damage difference. At level 18 the change in superiority die to d12's and the ability of the champion to heal both make a considerable difference. (Eldritch knights shouldn't even consider this combo as it clashes with the desired haste concentration.) Level 19 there isn't a huge change and level 20 the pure fighter completely outstrips it.

[cobaltstarfire]

Do you think they might become more interesting when more kinds of disciplines and such are added?

[Strill]

My first impressions of the Mystic were:


Mind Thrust sucks in open combat, but is overpowered for assassination and in cheesy combos
Object Reading fits, but steps on the toes of the Knowledge Cleric. It also ruins murder mystery stories.
Occluded Mind is overpowered because it's a save-or-die spell for 3 points. e.g. "All your limbs are crippled" or "You can't breathe"
Psionic Regeneration is dumb and cheesy because it means it's impossible for you to die.


So my questions are: Did you try to get creative with Mind Thrust? For example, by assassinating someone from a different room? There's no way to connect the murder to you, after all, and neither is there any indication for the target where the attack is coming from, or how to make it stop.

Did you try to get creative with Object Reading in order to derail the plot?

Did you try to get creative with Conquering Mind to instantly defeat an opponent?

Did you ever have any fights with environmental hazards where Broken Will can be used to instantly defeat an opponent?

Did you realize that Psionic Regeneration still works even when unconscious?

[GiantOctopodes]

No they wouldn't stand true for 17 18 or 19. 16 is the peak of the combos power, before action surge gets it second use per short rest at 17 which makes up most of the difference. At level 17 with two short rests a day the combo only gains 6 attacks more than the fighter. Even less if the fighter has means of gaining a bonus action attack. If both use polearm mastery the mystic/fighter gains 1 attack a day and larger hit die on 5 (d10 vs d4) meaning d10+5 and another 10 from hit die difference. 21.5 damage difference. At level 18 the change in superiority die to d12's and the ability of the champion to heal both make a considerable difference. (Eldritch knights shouldn't even consider this combo as it clashes with the desired haste concentration.) Level 19 there isn't a huge change and level 20 the pure fighter completely outstrips it.

Certainly! All of the points you raise are valid, though I disagree with action surge 1/ short rest making up "most" of the difference, unless you short rest more than 2x/day, which would be unusual. It's not like Celerity alone is the cause of you taking the Mystic. And it's not like 16 is the only level at which they have advantages, either- they get at 14 (with 6 levels left in the game) what the champion gets at 18 (with 2 levels left in the game). They gain the equivalent of Magic weapon (a 2nd level spell) at will, with the ability to turn it into a +3 weapon (something the EK can never do since he lacks 6th level slots), which is likely *far* more impactful than their Surge of Action (especially if they have a bonus action attack). If they're using GWM, and attacking against an AC of 18, they go from a 40% hit rate (1d10+15*.4=8.2 expected damage per attack) to a 55% hit rate (1d10+18*.55=12.92 damage per attack), a 50% increase in damage every round. Assuming a bonus action attack, that provides the equivalent damage boost of another action surge every 2 rounds of combat, so unless you have less than 2 rounds of combat per short rest, the second Action Surge just doesn't keep up. I didn't cherry pick that AC value either, that's just the DMG recommended AC of a monster of the appropriate CR. Raising the AC to 19 just makes it worse for the non-mystic fighter.

My point isn't, though, anything regarding the specific numbers themselves. I was more commenting on how people always do "balance assessments" based on capabilities the fighter gains during the last level of the game, treating it with a straight face as though it is any more likely or meaningful to an actual game in terms of its balance impact than a moon druid's capstone. Your assessment here was much more thorough, and much more likely to actually apply to an actual game people are playing. Regardless of whether or not I disagree with any specific conclusions of your analysis, its depth and thoroughness is appreciated.

I get that it's longer to do than just tossing the capabilities of fighter 20 out there. I was more commenting on the general practices of folks to treat the fighter like the 4th attack is somehow guaranteed or inevitable and discussing his capabilities with it, rather than treating it as the capstone it is, than I was commenting on your specific argument.

[HoarsHalberd]

Certainly! All of the points you raise are valid, though I disagree with action surge 1/ short rest making up "most" of the difference, unless you short rest more than 2x/day, which would be unusual. It's not like Celerity alone is the cause of you taking the Mystic. And it's not like 16 is the only level at which they have advantages, either- they get at 14 (with 6 levels left in the game) what the champion gets at 18 (with 2 levels left in the game). They gain the equivalent of Magic weapon (a 2nd level spell) at will, with the ability to turn it into a +3 weapon (something the EK can never do since he lacks 6th level slots), which is likely *far* more impactful than their Surge of Action (especially if they have a bonus action attack). If they're using GWM, and attacking against an AC of 18, they go from a 40% hit rate (1d10+15*.4=8.2 expected damage per attack) to a 55% hit rate (1d10+18*.55=12.92 damage per attack), a 50% increase in damage every round. Assuming a bonus action attack, that provides the equivalent damage boost of another action surge every 2 rounds of combat, so unless you have less than 2 rounds of combat per short rest, the second Action Surge just doesn't keep up. I didn't cherry pick that AC value either, that's just the DMG recommended AC of a monster of the appropriate CR. Raising the AC to 19 just makes it worse for the non-mystic fighter.


If you short rest twice a day you gain three uses of action surge, leaving an advantage of two uses of celerity. Most of the advantage (3/5) in bonus actions is made up.

If you haven't got some kind of magic weapon by level 12 then your DM is just being cruel.

They don't gain access to the champion capstone, they gain a much, much weaker version that gives them 2 hitpoints per round as it is based on mystic level.

However the +3 weapon at level 16 may be too powerful. The person specifically called out celerity as being imbalanced in a cross class combo so I was highlighting the fault in reasoning there. +3 weapons are supposed to be rare. (Though a fighter who did HOTDQ will have a +2 sword with +2d6 necrotic damage at level 8! God that modules loot was OP) Again the difference is loot dependent but focussing on the 5 minutes of a +3 weapon per day would be the better plan. In high magic campaigns it's not going to be a big difference, but in the low magic setting that 5e is set in as standard it will be hilariously OP.

[Steampunkette]

Give the level 11 fighter 5 levels of Rogue and you'll see a similar quantity of "OP"

[MaxWilson]

Object Reading fits, but steps on the toes of the Knowledge Cleric. It also ruins murder mystery stories.
Psionic Regeneration is dumb and cheesy because it means it's impossible for you to die.


1.) Speak with Dead already ruins murder mysteries. A good thing IMO because usually it's the monsters (e.g. drow) trying to figure out who murdered their henchmen.

2.) Psionic Regeneration doesn't make you immune to death any more than Word of Healing does, or the regular Regeneration spell. Massive damage will still kill you, as will any two melee hits once you're down (because they're auto-crits). Psionic Regen will not make you immune to a single big monster like a Tyrannosaur (because it could roll high on damage) nor to a swarm of weak monsters like zombies (because each hit is two failed death saves).

[CyberThread]

1.) Speak with Dead already ruins murder mysteries. A good thing IMO because usually it's the monsters (e.g. drow) trying to figure out who murdered their henchmen.

2.) Psionic Regeneration doesn't make you immune to death any more than Word of Healing does, or the regular Regeneration spell. Massive damage will still kill you, as will any two melee hits once you're down (because they're auto-crits). Psionic Regen will not make you immune to a single big monster like a Tyrannosaur (because it could roll high on damage) nor to a swarm of weak monsters like zombies (because each hit is two failed death saves).



Not like it isn't new to just say the boss man uses some spell that makes it undetectable or erases whatever that spirit got.