Why is there no Constructor Handbook?

[Pippin]

(I mean the 3.5 update (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b).)

Hey,

I've been looking for more tricks about the Constructor PrC but sadly I haven't found many things online, not even a handbook. Does this mean Constructors aren't very played? I would say it's a pity because there are a lot of nice things with them.

Just to name the main ones:

A 5th-level Constructor manifests Astral Construct with a duration of 1 minute/level rather than 1 round/level.
A 7th-level Constructor can manifest Astral Construct with a duration of 1 hour/level and make the constructs work for him.
A 8th-level Constructor could create 9th-level Astral Constructs with five abilities from Menu C, which is worth 10 abilities from Menu B, which is worth 20 abilities from Menu A.
The capstone lets you manifest Astral Construct as a swift action, provided that you expend your Psionic Focus.
Theoretically, an ECL 20 Psion with 10 levels in this PrC, and in possession of the Overchannel and Practiced Manifester feats, could use the Enhancement Construction class feature and create four 9th-level Astral Constructs at once, for only 23 PP.


And this is only what an average, inexperienced optimizer like me could figure out by reading the description.

So, do you guys play or know someone that plays this PrC at your table?
Is it as good as it seems on paper?
Is it fun? (I fear that it quickly becomes boring, because the entire PrC is based on one single power.)
When you manifest Astral Construct, what menu abilities do you choose?
What fun things do you make your utility constructs do?

[Fouredged Sword]

(I mean the 3.5 update (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b).)

Hey,

I've been looking for more tricks about the Constructor PrC but sadly I haven't found many things online, not even a handbook. Does this mean Constructors aren't very played? I would say it's a pity because there are a lot of nice things with them.

Just to name the main ones:

A 5th-level Constructor manifests Astral Construct with a duration of 1 minute/level rather than 1 round/level.
A 7th-level Constructor can manifest Astral Construct with a duration of 1 hour/level and make the constructs work for him.
A 8th-level Constructor could create 9th-level Astral Constructs with five abilities from Menu C, which is worth 10 abilities from Menu B, which is worth 20 abilities from Menu A.
The capstone lets you manifest Astral Construct as a swift action, provided that you expend your Psionic Focus.
Theoretically, an ECL 20 Psion with 10 levels in this PrC, and in possession of the Overchannel and Practiced Manifester feats, could use the Enhancement Construction class feature and create four 9th-level Astral Constructs at once, for only 23 PP.


And this is only what an average, inexperienced optimizer like me could figure out by reading the description.

So, do you guys play or know someone that plays this PrC at your table?
Is it as good as it seems on paper?
Is it fun? (I fear that it quickly becomes boring, because the entire PrC is based on one single power.)
When you manifest Astral Construct, what menu abilities do you choose?
What fun things do you make your utility constructs do?

I think the issue is that Psion 20 is almost as powerful. Psion is a tier 2 class that pushes the edges of tier 1.

[Amphetryon]

Why is there no Constructor Handbook? Because you haven't written it yet.

[Psyren]

Why is there no Constructor Handbook? Because you haven't written it yet.

This is actually the answer, blue text aside. When I saw how awesome the Meditant was, and the techniques one could do with it (e.g. doubling a Psychic Warrior's PP), and that nobody seemed to be talking about it, I got the conversation going with my own handbook instead.

[Segev]

I know a portion of my resistance to the class - which I do not deny is a good one, mostly - is that it is tacitly acknowledging the active nerf given to Astral Construct in C.Psi. This isn't even an air-breathing mermaid issue; C.Psi. actually has an entry for Astral Construct that directly nerfs it, making it so you can only have one at a time. Then they turn around and make a PrC that, over 10 levels, partially returns the ability to have multiples.

[Pippin]

Why is there no Constructor Handbook? Because you haven't written it yet.
Oh, I'm not knowledgeable enough for these things. I wish I were.


I know a portion of my resistance to the class - which I do not deny is a good one, mostly - is that it is tacitly acknowledging the active nerf given to Astral Construct in C.Psi. This isn't even an air-breathing mermaid issue; C.Psi. actually has an entry for Astral Construct that directly nerfs it, making it so you can only have one at a time. Then they turn around and make a PrC that, over 10 levels, partially returns the ability to have multiples.
Well, if you're referring to the "You can have only one astral construct shaped at any one time" nerf, I think it's okay. It sounds reasonable to me, besides Constructors have a class feature that bypasses and even improves this, as you said. And it's not like you were going to manifest Astral Construct once per round anyway. You're a Psion, you have tons of other things to manifest! If you're referring to the other nerfs, then yea, I suppose it's best to tacitly ignore them.

[Psyren]

I know a portion of my resistance to the class - which I do not deny is a good one, mostly - is that it is tacitly acknowledging the active nerf given to Astral Construct in C.Psi. This isn't even an air-breathing mermaid issue; C.Psi. actually has an entry for Astral Construct that directly nerfs it, making it so you can only have one at a time. Then they turn around and make a PrC that, over 10 levels, partially returns the ability to have multiples.

I think you're thinking of Ectopic Adept, a different PrC. The Constructor does not in any way legitimize or acknowledge the CPsi nerf.

[Rebel7284]

I keep seeing people say that Astral Construct is one of the best powers in the game, but I really just don't see why.

What i see when I look at the menu choices:
- You get a tank with the movement modes you need and a couple of minor buffs to basic stats/damage and/or some fighter feats.
- Powers it can manifest, again, just either add a bit of damage or add a movement mode (teleport short distance while bringing only 20 lbs.)
- There is only a single debuff in the form of Con damage.
- Natural Invisibility is amazing, but it comes very late (menu C) and the short duration makes it useless for scouting (admittedly, Constructor helps here)
- Blindsight is useful, but again, menu C is too late.

So you get a beatstick with almost no utility beyond "hit that enemy". I mean, a beatstick can be nice to have, so I am not saying the power is _bad_.
I just don't see why it's exciting.

Perhaps I need to play a psion one of these days and test it out for myself.

[Psyren]

So you get a beatstick with almost no utility beyond "hit that enemy". I mean, a beatstick can be nice to have, so I am not saying the power is _bad_.
I just don't see why it's exciting.

Beatsticks are good because they are versatile. The vast majority of monsters in the game are susceptible to melee attack rolls and HP damage - after all, if they weren't, the designers would basically be giving the middle finger to martial classes. (Well, more than they do already, anyway.) In addition, summoned beatsticks are disposable (every time a monster hits a summon, or even wastes movement trying to go around one, you've won, because you don't have to expend additional resources on healing the party member that monster would have struck. This goes double for debuffs and conditions that monster would have inflicted.)

Astral Constructs are even more useful than that - a lot of the weaknesses of regular summons don't apply to them. For starters is their creature type - Construct, which by itself gives them a metric ton of immunities to many of the nastier monster attacks. Send your AC without fear in against that Giant Scorpion, Wererat, those Ghouls/Wights, that Vampire, that Medusa, or that Mummy etc. Any of these could be a nasty matchup for a psion, particularly the undead ones, but for a Shaper they are a breeze. They are also not actually "summoned," so they bypass other anti-summoning defenses like Protection from Evil and Dismissal while still being just as disposable and almost as versatile as regular summons. They also have darkvision, and with the menu abilities can even get 60ft. blindsight, making it extremely difficult to get the drop on their shaper.

There's also the huge damage/PP ratio they get. An Astral Construct is only paid for once, yet for as long as it lasts it can attack every round. A blasting power with the same PP expenditure will do its damage once, and then must be manifested again and again to keep doing that damage, causing you to run out.

Finally, there is the sheer utility of having something big and strong around. It can carry your items, carry your allies, carry you, and fly or swim. You create and command it mentally, allowing you to be sneaky when you use it (provided you suppress your displays.) It can block a chokepoint and cover your escape. It can flank with the fighter or rogue. It can grapple a ranged rogue's target, enabling their sneak attack against anyone (in 3.5 anyway.) The uses are as varied as your imagination, except unlike illusions they don't require a whole lot of "DM may I."

[danzibr]

Oh, I'm not knowledgeable enough for these things. I wish I were.
I wrote a handbook once. Truth be told, I knew I wasn't knowledgeable enough to make a handbook on my own, and I even said as such.

And indeed you may not be, but you know who is? The playground! As a community, that is. It only takes one motivated person to organize the Constructor knowledge of the playground into the form of a handbook, and that could be you.

Not only will it be a great resource for others, but you'll learn so much in the process.

By the way I love the PrC and could contribute, at the very least a build.

[Rebel7284]

Beatsticks are good because they are versatile. The vast majority of monsters in the game are susceptible to melee attack rolls and HP damage - after all, if they weren't, the designers would basically be giving the middle finger to martial classes. (Well, more than they do already, anyway.) In addition, summoned beatsticks are disposable (every time a monster hits a summon, or even wastes movement trying to go around one, you've won, because you don't have to expend additional resources on healing the party member that monster would have struck. This goes double for debuffs and conditions that monster would have inflicted.)

Astral Constructs are even more useful than that - a lot of the weaknesses of regular summons don't apply to them. For starters is their creature type - Construct, which by itself gives them a metric ton of immunities to many of the nastier monster attacks. Send your AC without fear in against that Giant Scorpion, Wererat, those Ghouls/Wights, that Vampire, that Medusa, or that Mummy etc. Any of these could be a nasty matchup for a psion, particularly the undead ones, but for a Shaper they are a breeze. They are also not actually "summoned," so they bypass other anti-summoning defenses like Protection from Evil and Dismissal while still being just as disposable and almost as versatile as regular summons. They also have darkvision, and with the menu abilities can even get 60ft. blindsight, making it extremely difficult to get the drop on their shaper.

There's also the huge damage/PP ratio they get. An Astral Construct is only paid for once, yet for as long as it lasts it can attack every round. A blasting power with the same PP expenditure will do its damage once, and then must be manifested again and again to keep doing that damage, causing you to run out.

Finally, there is the sheer utility of having something big and strong around. It can carry your items, carry your allies, carry you, and fly or swim. You create and command it mentally, allowing you to be sneaky when you use it (provided you suppress your displays.) It can block a chokepoint and cover your escape. It can flank with the fighter or rogue. It can grapple a ranged rogue's target, enabling their sneak attack against anyone (in 3.5 anyway.) The uses are as varied as your imagination, except unlike illusions they don't require a whole lot of "DM may I."

Thank you for your detailed response and good point about the construct type occasionally trivializing certain encounters.
Minor nitpicks about preemptive Blindsight and carrying items. I feel like short duration makes those uses pretty limited.

Overall, however, the vast majority of those points apply to summoning in general, and yet I don't see very many people saying that the Summon Monster line (which is typically more flexible...) is one of the best options a wizard has. With arcane casters, summoning is usually an afterthought when mentioning battlefield control in general. Perhaps this is a side effect of arcane summon spells being broken up into 9 separate spells, so it's more difficult to say "this spell is great"? *shrugs*

[Psyren]

Minor nitpicks about preemptive Blindsight and carrying items. I feel like short duration makes those uses pretty limited.

That's part of the benefit of the Constructor - they can shape a utility construct that lasts hours/level. It can't attack, but it can still be very strong, and some of the examples given include carrying barrels, pulling carts and having numerous bags strapped to it. In addition, normal constructs last minutes/lvl instead of rounds/lvl.

But even with a short duration, these abilities are handy. Blindsight for instance is great when a monster goes invisible during combat (or sneaks into a combat in progress) and tries to get the drop on the psion. Carrying is great when the fighter drops and you need to move him and all his gear away from a hazard, or if you're trying to grapple a big monster and move it to a more advantageous position for the party.



Overall, however, the vast majority of those points apply to summoning in general, and yet I don't see very many people saying that the Summon Monster line (which is typically more flexible...) is one of the best options a wizard has. With arcane casters, summoning is usually an afterthought when mentioning battlefield control in general. Perhaps this is a side effect of arcane summon spells being broken up into 9 separate spells, so it's more difficult to say "this spell is great"? *shrugs*

Really? Because I see it everywhere. Treantmonk says it, Dictum Mortuum says it, LogicNinja says it (though he advises you only focus on summoning if there's no cleric or druid around) etc. And that's without dedicating yourself to it e.g. Malconvoker.

It's an even better strategy for Psions, who can summon something just big enough for the challenge at hand rather than preparing multiple spell levels of summons and hoping that the one they need comes up, plus they of course have limited powers known but only need one summon power.

[Pippin]

I think the issue is that Psion 20 is almost as powerful. Psion is a tier 2 class that pushes the edges of tier 1.
I forgot to reply to this, but Tippy would probably tell you that Psion is one of those classes whose tier the player decides. You can stay away from all tricks and be Tier 2, or you can use a few, or you can use them all and be Tier -1, it's entirely up to you I suppose.


I wrote a handbook once. Truth be told, I knew I wasn't knowledgeable enough to make a handbook on my own, and I even said as such.

And indeed you may not be, but you know who is? The playground! As a community, that is. It only takes one motivated person to organize the Constructor knowledge of the playground into the form of a handbook, and that could be you.

Not only will it be a great resource for others, but you'll learn so much in the process.

By the way I love the PrC and could contribute, at the very least a build.
Well I don't know, like everybody else I have other things to do >_< Other people like Psyren look much more into this / into Psionics than me. *whistle* :smallbiggrin:

I've never played any class that doesn't rely solely on casting spells, so I don't even master the basics of (real, physical) combat. I couldn't tell you how Slam attacks work. I think that rules me out for rating menu abilities :smallsigh:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Maybe because it's a very simple class? No weird trade-offs or quirky abilities, nothing that requires unexpected combinations, just "lose one level of manifesting, make better astral constructs."

But if you do decide to write something up, Utility Construct combos wonderfully with Skin of the Construct. (1 pp for hours/level flight? Yes please!)

[Pippin]

Maybe because it's a very simple class? No weird trade-offs or quirky abilities, nothing that requires unexpected combinations, just "lose one level of manifesting, make better astral constructs."
It's two levels actually :smallsigh:


But if you do decide to write something up, Utility Construct combos wonderfully with Skin of the Construct. (1 pp for hours/level flight? Yes please!)
Not quite, Utility Constructs can't have menu abilities. But it sure is an awesome way to get whatever ability you need whenever you need it, I agree.

[Rubik]

It's two levels actually :smallsigh:You mean there are people who actually take more than nine levels rather than just taking the Linked Power feat?


Not quite, Utility Constructs can't have menu abilities. But it sure is an awesome way to get whatever ability you need whenever you need it, I agree.Well, it can be read as: "At 7th level, the constructor gains the ability to alter an astral construct as it is being manifested. The astral construct loses all attack [capabilities and menu selections]."

[Pippin]

You mean there are people who actually take more than nine levels rather than just taking the Linked Power feat?
That's nowhere near equivalent though. The capstone lets you use your swift action of the turn to have your astral constructs right here, right now. And you can pay ML power points for it.

Also, what's the point in having more than 17 manifester levels anyway?


Well, it can be read as: "At 7th level, the constructor gains the ability to alter an astral construct as it is being manifested. The astral construct loses all attack [capabilities and menu selections]."
Oh, this is smart. I don't know many ways to have 60 ft. Blindsight all day long.

[Rubik]

That's nowhere near equivalent though. The capstone lets you use your swift action of the turn to have your astral constructs right here, right now. And you can pay ML power points for it.Chronocharm of the uncaring archmage, from the MIC, and if you really want a cheap version of Quicken Power, combine that with Linked immediate action power/Synchronicity right before your turn to get that extra standard action to manifest Astral Construct.


Also, what's the point in having more than 17 manifester levels anyway?Metapsionics? Augmentation? Multiple astral constructs simultaneously via Enhanced Construction?


Oh, this is smart. I don't know many ways to have 60 ft. Blindsight all day long.Not exactly the same (and better in some ways because it's harder to get around), but a fistful of +1 manifester arrows and Touchsight? Add Widen and Burrowing Power as you like for more punch (through walls!).

[Red Fel]

Oh, I'm not knowledgeable enough for these things. I wish I were.

Don't let that stop you. Become knowledgeable.

If you look into my extended sig, you'll see a handbook on the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC. Do you think I wrote it because I knew everything there was to know about incarnum, item crafting, and combat classes? Heck no. I wrote it because I felt it needed to be written, because people expressed interest, and because it was something that interested me. I became knowledgeable. I had no idea there were so freaking many kinds of dwarves, for example.

So look into it. Read about psionics. Find some astral construct guides. Look into neat power tricks you can use. Pick out some base classes and figure out why they do or don't work. Then start putting things together. Make the thread, reserve the posts, start placing your ideas.

If it has merit to you, do it. Do the research, do the writing. If people see your passion, they'll chip in. You'll find, once you get started, that it tends to build itself.

[Rubik]

Download the astral construct spreadsheet from this (https://sites.google.com/site/dotditto/excel) and use it often.

[Pippin]

Chronocharm of the uncaring archmage, from the MIC, and if you really want a cheap version of Quicken Power, combine that with Linked immediate action power/Synchronicity right before your turn to get that extra standard action to manifest Astral Construct.
Okay that works I suppose. I've never been fond of magic items though, I'd rather take another path. Being extremely greedy for cheese, I like to think that my disliking using magic items could make my DM more lenient (or not).


Metapsionics? Augmentation? Multiple astral constructs simultaneously via Enhanced Construction?
Well there's always Practiced Manifester.


Not exactly the same (and better in some ways because it's harder to get around), but a fistful of +1 manifester arrows and Touchsight? Add Widen and Burrowing Power as you like for more punch (through walls!).
You got me there, I've no idea what you're talking about.


Don't let that stop you. Become knowledgeable.

If you look into my extended sig, you'll see a handbook on the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC. Do you think I wrote it because I knew everything there was to know about incarnum, item crafting, and combat classes? Heck no. I wrote it because I felt it needed to be written, because people expressed interest, and because it was something that interested me. I became knowledgeable. I had no idea there were so freaking many kinds of dwarves, for example.

So look into it. Read about psionics. Find some astral construct guides. Look into neat power tricks you can use. Pick out some base classes and figure out why they do or don't work. Then start putting things together. Make the thread, reserve the posts, start placing your ideas.

If it has merit to you, do it. Do the research, do the writing. If people see your passion, they'll chip in. You'll find, once you get started, that it tends to build itself.
Well, you guys are tempting me, that's for sure. I suppose I shall ponder over this. I'm not really open-minded though, I could only make one from the perspective of a Psion.


Download the astral construct spreadsheet from this (https://sites.google.com/site/dotditto/excel) and use it often.
It says file not found, apparently.

[Renen]

Well, it can be read as: "At 7th level, the constructor gains the ability to alter an astral construct as it is being manifested. The astral construct loses all attack [capabilities and menu selections]."

I really really want to read it as such, but I cant, as it seems just too clear that menu abilities are lost :-(

[Rubik]

Okay that works I suppose. I've never been fond of magic items though, I'd rather take another path. Being extremely greedy for cheese, I like to think that my disliking using magic items could make my DM more lenient (or not).Well, chroncharms are quite inexpensive, and it's not terribly difficult to add more uses per day via adding another item's effect onto an existing chronocharm. It only costs 50% more than the original did, which is still cheap.


Well there's always Practiced Manifester.True, though that still knocks down your powers known and number of power points, so it's nowhere near perfect.

Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) is much better, though.


You got me there, I've no idea what you're talking about.Manifester arrows are arrows with the manifester property, which grants power points like a 5 pp cognizance crystal; since arrows are ammo, each one costs 1/50 of a normal weapon's price, so for less than the cost of a +1 manifester dagger, you get 50 times as many power points. Just spend that on Touchsight when you need it, for relatively cheap.

Or you could spend your own power points instead to add Burrowing Power, which lets you bypass solid obstacles with Touchsight, allowing you to "see" through walls, if your Psicraft is high enough. Alternatively, Widening Touchsight means you have a wonderful 120' kinetic field around you that is, in some ways, much better than 60' blindsense.


It says file not found, apparently.It sent me to that page, too, which had another link which seemed to work just fine.

Or you could download it from here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7XkmnK-DY9YRkU5SVhCNWZqS0U/view?usp=sharing

[Segev]

I'm not really open-minded though, I could only make one from the perspective of a Psion.

Then start there. It is possible you'll find ideas that occur to you as you research. If you do not, post the handbook as a work in progress, and see what others suggest. Investigate and incorporate those as other approaches. A lot of the handbooks around here were the author really serving as collector-of-others'-knowledge.

[Pippin]

True, though that still knocks down your powers known and number of power points, so it's nowhere near perfect.
We both know that there are a dozen different ways to regain PP, and that you'll know all powers in the game eventually :smallbiggrin:

[Renen]

We both know that there are a dozen different ways to regain PP, and that you'll know all powers in the game eventually :smallbiggrin:

Not unless you are Erudite. Yes, psions can use the psionic version of scrolls and such, but they still have a limit of powers known.

[Rubik]

Not unless you are Erudite. Yes, psions can use the psionic version of scrolls and such, but they still have a limit of powers known.There are ways around that, including Psychic Chirurgery, abusing the DCFS to nab lots of Expanded Knowledge feats, and three levels in illithid savant to eat a StP erudite.

[Psyren]

There are ways around that, including Psychic Chirurgery, abusing the DCFS to nab lots of Expanded Knowledge feats, and three levels in illithid savant to eat a StP erudite.

Also Fusion-Seed combo shenanigans

[Rubik]

Also Fusion-Seed combo shenanigansIt's not exactly the same, but you could also take a level in thrallherd to grab an egoist thrall, tell your thrall to Metamorphosis into a piece of equipment, wear and/or hold that equipment at all times, and manifest from its powers known.

Also, Metaconcert.

[Renen]

There are ways around that, including Psychic Chirurgery, abusing the DCFS to nab lots of Expanded Knowledge feats, and three levels in illithid savant to eat a StP erudite.

I thought I read that Psy Chi doesn't allow one to bypass the limit

[Rubik]

I thought I read that Psy Chi doesn't allow one to bypass the limitTransfer Knowledge
If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list. Knowledge of powers gained through psychic chirurgery does not count toward the maximum number of powers a character can know per level.

[Renen]

Well mother fu....
Psion powah!

[Pluto!]

I looked back at the PrC to make sure I wasn't forgetting anything, and there's nothing there to write a handbook about.

The class doesn't have any unique abilities that require decisions beside the 10 AC menu items. Most are bad, reach and tail slap are okay, stunning fist is going to have a very low DC. That's pretty much all anyone needs to know.

Don't get me wrong, the class as a whole is very strong. But building and playing a Constructor isn't different than building and playing a regular psion, except that you have the PrC name written on your character sheet and your AC-related numbers are higher.

EDIT:
If you're looking for an Astral Construct-using Psion guide, Saeomon's No-Nonsense guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) is great and breaks down Astral Construct use in post #10 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.msg345818#msg345818), and I just looked at AC menu options as an entry in my Summoning guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13865630&postcount=6).

[Sliver]

That's nowhere near equivalent though. The capstone lets you use your swift action of the turn to have your astral constructs right here, right now. And you can pay ML power points for it.

I'm surprised that Personal Construct (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) hasn't been mentioned yet. Comes active at level 5, before even taking your first Constructor level. Sure, it has to be preselected, but you are likely to choose some form that is rather universally useful in battle, and you can change it every level. Same effect as the capstone, plus you don't lose a ML.

I actually started playing a Shaper now that I plan to take into Constructor, though I'm level 2 right now... But I have Overchannel, so I can create level 2 constructs already, next level I'll get Talented to offset the damage, along with Durable Construct from Hyperconscious (I'll retrain one of the level 1 feats into Talented). Durable Construct sets the Astral Construct duration to 10 minutes, and I'll retrain it for something else once I hit level 11 and get the 1 minute/level duration from the constructor.

And since I'm playing a Kalashtar, once I get the gold, I'll be buying a Power Link, an Implant Quori Shard that grants +2 pp 3/day that can put a power above the usual max. If I get it at level 3, it means I'll be able to manifest level 3 constructs. Level 4 constructs at 4!

[Rubik]

I'm surprised that Personal Construct (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) hasn't been mentioned yet.That may be because it's not very good. The strength in astral constructs comes from their flexibility, and the personal construct ACF trades a potentially very powerful feat to reduce that flexibility.

A chronocharm of the uncaring archmage is just as good AND is considerably cheaper.

[Endarire]

I already sort of did this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15897.0).

[Pippin]

I see Midnight Augmentation mentioned every now and then.

Is it really that good though? In order to make (very) good use of essentia points, don't you have to multi-class at some point? Can you really do nice things without dipping into soulmeld classes?

[Pluto!]

I see Midnight Augmentation mentioned every now and then.

Is it really that good though? In order to make (very) good use of essentia points, don't you have to multi-class at some point? Can you really do nice things without dipping into soulmeld classes?
Even without essentia, you could still use Psycarnum Infusion to effectively push your PP cap by 4.

[Rubik]

Midnight Augmentation is great, but mostly just for higher level powers -- unless you interpret the feat to reduce the cost for every time you use the same augmentation, which is at the very least cheesy as anything.

For instance, if you count MA as reducing the overall cost for augmentation, Astral Construct's cost is only reduced by 1, since the power is level 1 no matter how much you augment for. Okay, but not great.

If you count MA as reducing augmentation for every time you use it for one manifestation, you get a higher level construct for every power point you spend, which is hax.

[Pippin]

But at ECL 20 you can use Overchannel to spend 23 PP on Astral Construct, is that not enough? Until now, it has been my understanding that Incarnum was only an option for Psionic characters that wanted to increase their DC for charm/compulsion effects, thanks to the all-mighty Charming Veil.

[Rubik]

But at ECL 20 you can use Overchannel to spend 23 PP on Astral Construct, is that not enough? Until now, it has been my understanding that Incarnum was only an option for Psionic characters that wanted to increase their DC for charm/compulsion effects, thanks to the all-mighty Charming Veil.Nah. Incarnum has all sorts of great uses for any character, psionic or not. It just so happens that incarnum and psionics combine really well together, and there are quite a few combos that segue nicely. Bind a psionically-made meta-rod (according to the rules in the MIC that allow psionic versions of magic items) to your hands, and suddenly you gain +1 ML whenever you channel a power through the rod. Or use Psycarnum Infusion to fuel your incarnum feats. Or use ML-boosts to manifest Psionic Open Chakra to bind soulmelds several levels before anyone else in the game. Or use Midnight Augmentation to gain access to higher level augmentations early for A LOT cheaper than you would otherwise.

The combination of psionics and incarnum is pretty spectacular.

[Pippin]

Nah. Incarnum has all sorts of great uses for any character, psionic or not. It just so happens that incarnum and psionics combine really well together, and there are quite a few combos that segue nicely. Bind a psionically-made meta-rod (according to the rules in the MIC that allow psionic versions of magic items) to your hands, and suddenly you gain +1 ML whenever you channel a power through the rod. Or use Psycarnum Infusion to fuel your incarnum feats. Or use ML-boosts to manifest Psionic Open Chakra to bind soulmelds several levels before anyone else in the game. Or use Midnight Augmentation to gain access to higher level augmentations early for A LOT cheaper than you would otherwise.

The combination of psionics and incarnum is pretty spectacular.
This is going a bit off-topic so I'm going to spoiler the first part.

Yeah well, the way I read your post, I understood that using Incarnum Magic can be very cheesy in early levels, but progressively decreases to "good" in higher levels?

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, I've just realized that one would only need Psionic Open Chakra, the Shape Soulmeld feat and the converted-to-power Soul Boon to abuse Charming Veil without multi-classing... Is that right? Also, anyone know if Soul Boon stacks with itself (so long as you cast/manifest the second before the first expires) ?

Now, I agree that Midnight Augmentation might not be the best feat for Constructors. And even if you could lower the Augmentation cost by your maximum essentia capacity, I'm still not sure how useful that'd be in higher levels. I mean, if an ECL 20 Psion can already spend 23 PP on Astral Construct, what would you do with an extra 4/5/6 PP to spend?

[Rubik]

This is going a bit off-topic so I'm going to spoiler the first part.

Yeah well, the way I read your post, I understood that using Incarnum Magic can be very cheesy in early levels, but progressively decreases to "good" in higher levels?

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, I've just realized that one would only need Psionic Open Chakra, the Shape Soulmeld feat and the converted-to-power Soul Boon to abuse Charming Veil without multi-classing... Is that right? Also, anyone know if Soul Boon stacks with itself (so long as you cast/manifest the second before the first expires) ?Depending on what you do, incarnum is excellent at all levels, as it helps give you leverage with your manifesting, and since manifesting becomes even more potent at higher levels, that leverage increases proportionally.

Consider the phase cloak soulmeld. Using Psionic Open Chakra, you can bind the soulmeld to your shoulders as soon as the power becomes available, assuming cost-reduction and ML-boosting. It's quite powerful when you first get it, and hardly becomes less so as you advance in levels. You go ethereal whenever you move, meaning you can basically avoid detection by anything without (Psionic) True Seeing or Transdimensional Touchsight. You can fly at half your land speed, pass through walls and obstacles, avoid AoOs based on your movement, float right over difficult terrain (and traps and lava and pools of acid or water), and so on.

As far as the charming veil goes, yes, that is a good way of optimizing it. Multiple instances of Soul Boon do not stack; instead, it ascribes to "same sources overlap" that similar spells do.


Now, I agree that Midnight Augmentation might not be the best feat for Constructors. And even if you could lower the Augmentation cost by your maximum essentia capacity, I'm still not sure how useful that'd be in higher levels. I mean, if an ECL 20 Psion can already spend 23 PP on Astral Construct, what would you do with an extra 4/5/6 PP to spend?Don't focus on level 20; most games don't get that high, and those that do tend to stop there, so most of the game takes place well below that point. Consider what happens at level 5, 7, 10, or 12, instead. Boosting your MLs at that point is a definite benefit, at least as much so (if not more than) it is at level 20. After all, by level 20, you can already access nearly every augment to every power you've got, all simultaneously, whereas with lower levels, you can effectively access higher level powers and higher level spell-equivalents before you ordinarily would be able to (see: Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, Astral Construct, and Psionic Open Chakra).

[Pippin]

Midnight Augmentation is great, but mostly just for higher level powers -- unless you interpret the feat to reduce the cost for every time you use the same augmentation, which is at the very least cheesy as anything.

For instance, if you count MA as reducing the overall cost for augmentation, Astral Construct's cost is only reduced by 1, since the power is level 1 no matter how much you augment for. Okay, but not great.

If you count MA as reducing augmentation for every time you use it for one manifestation, you get a higher level construct for every power point you spend, which is hax.
Well, now that I've read the description again and again, I'm under the impression that the uber-cheesy interpretation was actually the intended one o_O


If you expend your psionic focus when manifesting that power, the power point cost to augment that power is reduced by a value equal to the invested essentia.

They never refer to the power point cost as the augmented cost, but always as the augmentation cost. What a pity, this feat is either too good to be allowed by most DMs, or okay but not good enough for Constructors and most other characters Q_Q

[Segev]

Well, now that I've read the description again and again, I'm under the impression that the uber-cheesy interpretation was actually the intended one o_O



They never refer to the power point cost as the augmented cost, but always as the augmentation cost. What a pity, this feat is either too good to be allowed by most DMs, or okay but not good enough for Constructors and most other characters Q_Q

I'm not following. The text you quoted said, specifically, that the power point cost to augment the power is reduced. There are power points you spent to augment the power. Reduce them by the given amount. Astral Construct has only one power point spent on it that is not a power point spent to augment it; all the others can be reduced. So if you augment it for 6, you're spending 7, but if you have Midnight Augmentation invested with 3 Essentia and spend your psionic focus, your 6 points of augmentation are reduced by 3, leaving you with a total of 4 power points spent on your level-7 astral construct.

If you only augmented it for 2, for a total of 3 pp, you reduce those 2 by 3 (minimum 0, because that's a general rule in D&D) so you only spend the 1 pp that is not being spent to augment it.

[Rubik]

I'm not following. The text you quoted said, specifically, that the power point cost to augment the power is reduced. There are power points you spent to augment the power. Reduce them by the given amount. Astral Construct has only one power point spent on it that is not a power point spent to augment it; all the others can be reduced. So if you augment it for 6, you're spending 7, but if you have Midnight Augmentation invested with 3 Essentia and spend your psionic focus, your 6 points of augmentation are reduced by 3, leaving you with a total of 4 power points spent on your level-7 astral construct.

If you only augmented it for 2, for a total of 3 pp, you reduce those 2 by 3 (minimum 0, because that's a general rule in D&D) so you only spend the 1 pp that is not being spent to augment it.This, except Midnight Augmentation is capped at a number of power points equal to the level of the power it's used on, so it can only ever reduce Astral Construct by 1 pp unless you somehow find a way to Heighten it.

[Segev]

This, except Midnight Augmentation is capped at a number of power points equal to the level of the power it's used on, so it can only ever reduce Astral Construct by 1 pp unless you somehow find a way to Heighten it.

Ah, is it? I am away from books at the moment, and am not really all that familiar with that particular feat.

[Pippin]

I'm not following. The text you quoted said, specifically, that the power point cost to augment the power is reduced. There are power points you spent to augment the power. Reduce them by the given amount. Astral Construct has only one power point spent on it that is not a power point spent to augment it; all the others can be reduced. So if you augment it for 6, you're spending 7, but if you have Midnight Augmentation invested with 3 Essentia and spend your psionic focus, your 6 points of augmentation are reduced by 3, leaving you with a total of 4 power points spent on your level-7 astral construct.

If you only augmented it for 2, for a total of 3 pp, you reduce those 2 by 3 (minimum 0, because that's a general rule in D&D) so you only spend the 1 pp that is not being spent to augment it.
The description reads "the power point cost to augment that power" and I was just saying that, to me, what they're talking about isn't ambiguous. They're talking about the amount of power points required to augment the power. I'm not a native speaker though, so I could be mistaken, but to me that sounds quite different from "the power point cost used to augment that power" or "the power point cost of the augmented power".

So this is why I was saying that RAW leans toward cheese.

[Segev]

The description reads "the power point cost to augment that power" and I was just saying that, to me, what they're talking about isn't ambiguous. They're talking about the amount of power points required to augment the power. I'm not a native speaker though, so I could be mistaken, but to me that sounds quite different from "the power point cost used to augment that power" or "the power point cost of the augmented power".

So this is why I was saying that RAW leans toward cheese.

I do not know your native language, but I will say that to me, as a native American English speaker, the three quoted phrases:

"the power point cost to augment that power"
"the power point cost used to augment that power"
"the power point cost of the augmented power"

are ALMOST exactly the same in meaning. The second one is actually a little awkwardly worded; you do not "use" a "cost" to augment the power: it would be better phrased as, "the power points used to augment that power." In which case, it means the exact same thing as the first phrase. One is the cost, the other is the power points used to pay that cost.

The third does mean something a little different: it includes all power points in the augmented power, including the points spent on its base effect. The first two exclude the power points spent on the base effect, only talking about those used to augment it.

I'm not sure what cheese you think is being encouraged; could you please describe what you think is cheesy? An example would probably help.

[Pippin]

Alright it's probably just me then :smallsigh:


Astral Construct
Metacreativity (Creation)
Level: Shaper 1
Display: Visual; see text
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One created astral construct
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 1
This power creates one 1st-level astral construct of solidified ectoplasm that attacks your enemies. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. As a free action, you can mentally direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The astral construct acts normally on the last round of the power’s duration and dissipates at the end of its turn.

Astral constructs are not summoned; they are created on the plane you inhabit (using ectoplasm drawn from the Astral Plane). Thus, they are not subject to effects that hedge out or otherwise affect outsiders; they are constructs, not outsiders.

Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, the level of the astral construct increases by one.
To me, 2 is the power point cost to augment this power. But I can't say that 2 is the power point cost of this augmented power, as I might pay more than just 2 power points. So, in other words, I would interpret "the power point cost to augment that power is reduced by a value equal to the invested essentia" as reducing 2 to 1, for this particular power. Which is the second interpretation that Rubik mentioned yesterday:


If you count MA as reducing augmentation for every time you use it for one manifestation, you get a higher level construct for every power point you spend, which is hax.

[Segev]

Ah, you're drawing a distinction between the unit cost for a unit of augmentation and the total number of pp spent to augment. Gotcha; I see what you mean now.