Extra Attack and Multiattack

[Millface]

If you have the extra attack feature from, say, ranger and then wildshape with druid into a giant badger how does multiattack work? I can't find anything solid on that in RAW, but I might just not be looking in the right place.

Thanks in advance!

[ThermalSlapShot]

Multiattack is its own action and wouldn't stack with Extra Attack.

You would have two ways of doing the same thing, attack twice.

Which is another thing I don't understand about the 5e ideology. Why the hell is multiattack and extra attack two separate features?

They do the same thing and should be called the same thing.

[Easy_Lee]

Multiattack is its own action and wouldn't stack with Extra Attack.

You would have two ways of doing the same thing, attack twice.

Which is another thing I don't understand about the 5e ideology. Why the hell is multiattack and extra attack two separate features?

They do the same thing and should be called the same thing.

Based on what I've seen, this is exactly the intent. I too wonder why these things are different.

On a related note, the BM subclass is ****ed six ways from Sunday, so I'd encourage you to implement some of the various house rules and home brews people have suggested on these forums. Person_man had a few rulings that many liked.

[coredump]

Because they are not the same thing.

Multiattack requires a definition of what is allowed. Usually there are restrictions of what attacks can be made via MultiAttack.
Extra Attack simply allows you one additional attack.


A bear gets one claw and one bite via Multi attack.
If the bear had Extra Attack, he could also do two bites or two claw attacks.

[Person_Man]

It's also noteworthy that natural weapons are not Finesse weapons (even if they are modified by Dexterity) and thus can't be used with Sneak Attack, and are not unarmed strikes or simple weapons (and thus can't be used with Martial Arts or most other Monk abilities).

In addition, its worth mentioning that multiclassing 5 levels into another class to get Extra Attack is probably a terrible idea for any Druid. More Druid levels gives you access to better Wildshape forms with better ability scores and abilities, and (more importantly) access to high level spells and (to a lesser extent) other high level class abilities and Feats.

[Millface]

It's also noteworthy that natural weapons are not Finesse weapons (even if they are modified by Dexterity) and thus can't be used with Sneak Attack, and are not unarmed strikes or simple weapons (and thus can't be used with Martial Arts or most other Monk abilities).

In addition, its worth mentioning that multiclassing 5 levels into another class to get Extra Attack is probably a terrible idea for any Druid. More Druid levels gives you access to better Wildshape forms with better ability scores and abilities, and (more importantly) access to high level spells and (to a lesser extent) other high level class abilities and Feats.

This is exactly why I was asking, to see if it was worth it or not to pick up some Ranger. Straight druid it is! Thanks, guys.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Because they are not the same thing.

Multiattack requires a definition of what is allowed. Usually there are restrictions of what attacks can be made via MultiAttack.
Extra Attack simply allows you one additional attack.


A bear gets one claw and one bite via Multi attack.
If the bear had Extra Attack, he could also do two bites or two claw attacks.

They are not different.

Multiattack and Extra Attack both allow for the user to make a second attack. The restrictions on what can be used to make the attacks is not based on Multiattack or Extra Attack but on the creature/class using them.

Multiattack specifically calls out certain types of attacks, yes, but you could have easily put in the creature "Extra Attack (Claw)" and not need an entire new name for the same ability.

[Xetheral]

In addition, its worth mentioning that multiclassing 5 levels into another class to get Extra Attack is probably a terrible idea for any Druid. More Druid levels gives you access to better Wildshape forms with better ability scores and abilities, and (more importantly) access to high level spells and (to a lesser extent) other high level class abilities and Feats.

If all you got was Extra Attack for those 5 levels, sure. But Barbarian gives Rage and Reckless Attacks, both of which synergize amazingly well with Wildshape, and Paladin gives Divine Smite and (at level 6) a massive boost to saving throws, both of which also synergize well with wildshape, and gives half casting to boot.

A higher-CR shape gives you (slightly) better hit chance, more damage, and lots more HP. Barbarian gives you all three too. Paladin gives (massive) extra damage and extra defense against debuffs, while having a lower opportunity cost.

Finally, don't underestimate the value of getting two Ram attacks (with charge bonus) or two Trample attacks in one turn... the damage adds up very quickly with a low-cr shape like an elk.

[GiantOctopodes]

If all you got was Extra Attack for those 5 levels, sure. But Barbarian gives Rage and Reckless Attacks, both of which synergize amazingly well with Wildshape, and Paladin gives Divine Smite and (at level 6) a massive boost to saving throws, both of which also synergize well with wildshape, and gives half casting to boot.

A higher-CR shape gives you (slightly) better hit chance, more damage, and lots more HP. Barbarian gives you all three too. Paladin gives (massive) extra damage and extra defense against debuffs, while having a lower opportunity cost.

Finally, don't underestimate the value of getting two Ram attacks (with charge bonus) or two Trample attacks in one turn... the damage adds up very quickly with a low-cr shape like an elk.

^This. Note that Barbarian also gives you Unarmored Defense (which may improve the AC of your form), fast movement, advantage on dex saves, and either resistance to *all* damage other than psychic damage (amazing), or a potential 3rd attack per turn as a bonus action (very nice).

Ranger provides a lot of things that are useless, but in addition to extra attack, can also give you Horde Breaker (again, a potential 3 attacks per round, but it doesn't cause exhaustion nor does it use your bonus action) and is a half caster. Barbarian is almost certainly your best option, especially since going Barbarian means you won't be casting spells while wild shaped anyway, so there's virtually no downside to raging as a bear or whatever, and conceptually it's terrifying.

[CNagy]

They are not different.

Multiattack and Extra Attack both allow for the user to make a second attack. The restrictions on what can be used to make the attacks is not based on Multiattack or Extra Attack but on the creature/class using them.

Multiattack specifically calls out certain types of attacks, yes, but you could have easily put in the creature "Extra Attack (Claw)" and not need an entire new name for the same ability.

Extra Attack and Multiattack are not the same thing. Extra Attack is not an action, it is a class feature that modifies a character's Attack action. At its most permissive, Multiattack is an action that mimics the Attack action of a character who has the Extra Attack class feature.

Most of the time, it's not that permissive and trying to describe it as Extra Attack with parentheses would just get out of hand. You've got creatures who attack twice with one weapon (Storm Giants with greatswords), creatures that attack 3 times with one weapon (Death Knights with longswords), creatures with 3 attacks spread between two attack options (Dragons with Claw/Claw/Bite), creatures with a variable Multiattack (Hydra starts with Bite x5, it shrinks as heads are lost), etc. There are so many different forms that Multiattack may take and Extra Attack (which just gives extra attacks without example restrictions above) is just not up to the task of covering it even if it were its own action.

Edit: Okay, Extra Attack could handle it if it were its own action. PCs would have the option of Attack action or Extra Attack action, and monsters would have Extra Attack with specific restrictions on how they could use the attacks... but turning it into an action doesn't change anything. Currently there is Attack and Multiattack, where Attack might have multiple allowed attacks. Turning Extra Attack into an action could get rid of Multiattack, but then it is still Attack and Extra Attack. PCs and Monsters would be using the same ability, but you'd also have to mention that feats/features/abilities that require an Attack action would also work as an Extra Attack action--but you'd need to be careful of monsters with abilities that could have an unintended synergy with those same feats/features/abilities. It sounds like more of a headache than just segregating the PC and Monster means of making multiple attacks.

[Joe the Rat]

AFMM right now: Can you switch out attacks in a multiattack for other "attack" options, as with Extra attack? For example, a Fighter with Extra attack can use one (or more) attack options to shove or grapple, and still make an attack. Could a troll "claw/grapple/bite" instead of "claw/claw/bite"? Or would it have to choose between grabbing or rending for the turn? That would make for a clean distinction between the two forms.

[HoarsHalberd]

AFMM right now: Can you switch out attacks in a multiattack for other "attack" options, as with Extra attack? For example, a Fighter with Extra attack can use one (or more) attack options to shove or grapple, and still make an attack. Could a troll "claw/grapple/bite" instead of "claw/claw/bite"? Or would it have to choose between grabbing or rending for the turn? That would make for a clean distinction between the two forms.

No you can't. Page 195 of the PHB says that you can only switch out attacks which you make as part of the attack action. Whereas multiattack is a separate action.

[PoeticDwarf]

Because they are not the same thing.

Multiattack requires a definition of what is allowed. Usually there are restrictions of what attacks can be made via MultiAttack.
Extra Attack simply allows you one additional attack.


A bear gets one claw and one bite via Multi attack.
If the bear had Extra Attack, he could also do two bites or two claw attacks.

Yes, you're exactly right. With extra attack you make an extra attack. You don't just make an extra attack with multiattack.

[coredump]

Yes, you're exactly right. With extra attack you make an extra attack. You don't just make an extra attack with multiattack.

Plus many things in the game trigger off of an Attack Action....so would not trigger off of a MultiAttack Action.

Grapples replace an attack, not part of a multi-attack

Attacks let you pick whichever weapon you want to use, Multiattack defines which one(s) you can use.

etc.

[Millface]

^This. Note that Barbarian also gives you Unarmored Defense (which may improve the AC of your form), fast movement, advantage on dex saves, and either resistance to *all* damage other than psychic damage (amazing), or a potential 3rd attack per turn as a bonus action (very nice).

Ranger provides a lot of things that are useless, but in addition to extra attack, can also give you Horde Breaker (again, a potential 3 attacks per round, but it doesn't cause exhaustion nor does it use your bonus action) and is a half caster. Barbarian is almost certainly your best option, especially since going Barbarian means you won't be casting spells while wild shaped anyway, so there's virtually no downside to raging as a bear or whatever, and conceptually it's terrifying.

I really like this. A Bear Totem Barbarian who actually IS a bear? Ha!

Consider me sold.

[Person_Man]

I would argue that Barbarian/Druid is a poor combination.

When you Wildshape, you gain the hit points of your new form. When you run out of those hit points, you revert to your normal form and your previous hit points. You can then just Wildshape again, and gain more hit points. This is why people refer to "the onion Druid" and its generally referred to as a balance problem, because a well played Druid is basically impossible to kill. So they don't gain much from having Resistance from Rage a limited number of times per day.

Higher level Druids gain access to Wildshape forms with more hit points (and better natural attack, special abilities, ability score modifiers, etc), and thus multiclassing gives you fewer hit points while in your Wild Shape form.

Druid also access to healing magic, Enhance Ability, Absorb Elements, Investiture of Stone, and other many other buff spells. In particular, there's basically no comparison between any Barbarian ability and the range of amazing options Druids start getting at 11th+ level.

Go read through the Monster Manual and try to find the Beast forms with high Dex and Con. I haven't been able to find one. They typically have high Dex, or high Con, but never both. The benefits of Unarmored Defense over Barkskin or natural armor usually doesn't exist, and where it does exist it is only 1 or 2 points of AC. And again, slightly better AC or other defenses are basically redundant with just having a pool of easily renewable hit points.

A low level Barbarian doesn't get many Rage uses, and they are restored on a Long Rest. So even in the corner cases when Rage would truly count and make a big difference, you can only do so a few times per day. So you're choosing to be mediocre 90%ish of the time in order to be somewhat more awesome 10%ish of the time.

So in summary, Barbarian is awesome, and Druid is awesome, but Barbarian/Druid is a redundant combination that doesn't stack well in the long term. Though I do want to concede that 1-2 levels of Barbarian may be a good idea in low-mid level games that won't be running for a long period of time. Though the same could be argued for a dips into pretty much any class for their signature low level abilities.

[Yagyujubei]

druid has possibly the best capstone of any class (and if not THE best, than top three easily)...it's one of the few classes that I wouldn't even consider MCing out of and I and a huge proponent of MCing. Archdruid=nigh unkillable