No magic items

[sabremeister]

Okay, so I was reading BRitF recently, and a few panels somehow connected in my head and got me thinking.

(Before I start - most of what I know about D&D mechanics comes from this comic and D&D Online)

In #738 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0738.html) Gannji says that Roy would not stand a chance again Enor without his magic items. Could he, though?

Now, I don't know much about how profitable bounty-hunting would be in the OotSverse, for either gold or XP, but I'd be willing to bet that Gannji (Rogue, with maybe a couple of levels of Fighter) and Enor (pure Fighter) are somewhere between levels 8 and 10. Any higher and they'd have to start adventuring to find enemies that are tough enough to give them XP, any lower and I doubt they'd have been able to capture Elan, V and Haley in only four-and-a-half strips.

So on the one hand we've got a Half-Ogre/Half-Blue-Dragon Fighter at level 8, 9 or 10. On the other hand we've got Roy.

Roy is a Human Fighter, level 14-ish. He's got Power Attack, Great Cleave, Two Handed Fighting (probably Improved 2H Fighting), and probably at least three increments of the Weapon Specialisation line. He's also really strong - for example, in #408 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) we see him lift Miko on the point of his sword, and in the next strip knocks her clean across the throne room with enough force to knock her out when she eventually lands. Some of that damage could be attributed to the magical greatsword in his hands, but even with only a basic greatsword the max damage is 12, plus twice the STR bonus, so Roy might be able to deal 24 damage with a basic greatsword. He's got a lot of HP too - in #442 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) he's already fairly damaged when he takes a Meteor Swarm to the face at close range and doesn't die. So, Roy is higher level than Enor, very strong, very tough, and with lots of feats that increase damage.

We don't know much about Enor's combat capabilities. He's got an abysmal Will save, low INT and WIS (nothing unexpected there), probably spent a feat or two on flying-related combat things (are there any? There probably should be, given the ease with which a human and a dragon can breed), prefers a big one-handed weapon, and is apparently useful enough with his claws to (in the eyes of the EoB gladiator trainer, and Gannji) pose a serious threat to a similar/higher-level character. And we mustn't forget that his species templates would add a significant boost to his STR and probably CON as well. So he is almost certainly as strong and tough as Roy, but do his feats boost to-hit and damage as much as Roy's feats do? No idea.

In #722 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) we see (the results of) Haley, a range-optimised Rogue of level 15-ish, fighting with an unfamiliar melee weapon, and killing five guards. The average Azure City soldier was level 3 or 4, so I'm guessing that's standard for the EoB's mooks as well. Five level 3 Fighters vs one level 15-ish Rogue not fighting under ideal circumstances seems close to even to me, maybe weighted a little in favour of the Rogue. But by the end of #722, Haley is alive, if injured, and all the guards are dead. Plot armour probably, but just as likely to be the influence of Haley's own magic items (the quality of which would be higher than any the guards might own, if they had any).

So, is a range-optimised level 15 Rogue with some magic items and a melee weapon, equivalent in combat ability to a level 14 Fighter with no magic items or armour and a weapon he gets lots of bonuses for using? And is an unspecialised Half-Ogre/Half-Blue-Dragon level 10 Fighter with no magic items or armour equivalent in combat ability to five level 3 guards in heavy armour?

Personally, I think even without plot armour, Roy would be able to beat Enor in an even contest. Enor's lightning breath doesn't seem to have much effect on Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0729.html), and despite his claws, Enor doesn't seem to be all that dangerous in unarmed combat, whereas Roy wielding a basic greatsword still has lots of feats working for him.

Anyone agree? Disagree? Have the stats to demolish or support my theory?

[martianmister]

Well, he can't beat Thog with his strenght...

[dtilque]

Gannji was bluffing. Or talking through his hat, since he probably had only the vaguest idea of Roy's stats.

As far as capturing V, Haley and Elan, they buffed a lot with potions and so forth. Those are only temporary and would have long since worn off by the time he made the statement. I don't know what level Gannji and Enor are at, but it could be fairly low.

[littlebum2002]

You're forgetting the +3CR from his Ogre race and the +2 CR from the half dragon template. So as far as CR goes he's probably on the same level as Roy. which makes it a MUCH closer fight then you are predicting.

[Onyavar]

In #722 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) we see (the results of) Haley, a range-optimised Rogue of level 15-ish, fighting with an unfamiliar melee weapon, and killing five guards. The average Azure City soldier was level 3 or 4, so I'm guessing that's standard for the EoB's mooks as well. Five level 3 Fighters vs one level 15-ish Rogue not fighting under ideal circumstances seems close to even to me, maybe weighted a little in favour of the Rogue. But by the end of #722, Haley is alive, if injured, and all the guards are dead. Plot armour probably, but just as likely to be the influence of Haley's own magic items (the quality of which would be higher than any the guards might own, if they had any).

So, is a range-optimised level 15 Rogue with some magic items and a melee weapon, equivalent in combat ability to a level 14 Fighter with no magic items or armour and a weapon he gets lots of bonuses for using? And is an unspecialised Half-Ogre/Half-Blue-Dragon level 10 Fighter with no magic items or armour equivalent in combat ability to five level 3 guards in heavy armour?


Having only marginal knowledge of P&P myself; a rogue of Haleys level can wipe the floor with mooks. She was probably still a little injured from hitting the Blade Barrier.

Her fighting skills with Ganjis polearm were probably atrocious, but Haley has a decent armor, she has high dexterity, dodge, evasion and who knows which other bonuses applied to her. What the mooks probably lacked most was hit points. Even being a rogue with only 6hd instead of 10hd per level, Haley had around 80-90 hd. The mooks had 20-40 at best, and I'm still pretty sure they barely hit her.

[Yuki Akuma]

Having only marginal knowledge of P&P myself; a rogue of Haleys level can wipe the floor with mooks. She was probably still a little injured from hitting the Blade Barrier.

Her fighting skills with Ganjis polearm were probably atrocious

Specifically she's at a -4 nonproficiency penalty, but her Base Attack Bonus of around +12-ish more than makes up for that. Those mooks likely had average ACs of around 16-ish, so a +8 to hit (assuming Haley has no Strength bonus, which is... a fairly safe assumption) means she has a fairly good chance of hitting them.

Edit: Also, it is highly unlikely she took any damage from the Blade Barrier. It's a Reflex save, and she's a Rogue. Notice how Elan and V have damage decals on them - which they did not have in the prior strip - but Haley does not.

[Darth Paul]

I would expect a fairly even contest. Enor's lightning breath did knock Roy on his butt, and even if we grant Enor the benefit of surprise, Roy has magic armor which grants save bonuses- so that's a push.

Roy's higher level gives him more hit points, but Enor's templates boost his CON into the 20s and also make that pretty close to a tie. Enor's STR bonus would also eat through Roy's hit points faster than Roy could wear down Enor. Enor most likely has Multi-Attack (it's a half-dragon half-ogre thing), so he can claw/claw/bite if he gets Roy in a clinch. He also has a bonus to grapple, so he could just bear-hug Roy and start squeezing.

Then again, Roy's IQ gives him plenty of feats, and he does have a great sword, his favorite weapon- and as we see in his battle with Thog, he does know how to use his IQ to win a fight. Slight advantage to Roy overall- but too close to call.

Yes, I'm waffling. But I think Enor has more going for him than you give him credit for.

[Kish]

Why would Roy's magic armor give him save bonuses?

[Darth Paul]

Why would Roy's magic armor give him save bonuses?
Unless I'm getting my editions confused again, there is, or was, a bonus for magic armor equal to the AC bonus applied to saving throws in D&D.

Am I getting my editions confused again?

[Douglas]

Unless I'm getting my editions confused again, there is, or was, a bonus for magic armor equal to the AC bonus applied to saving throws in D&D.

Am I getting my editions confused again?
Maybe? I don't know enough about 2e and earlier to say if there was such a rule for those editions, but in 3e and later armor is for AC only except for a few specific special abilities. Bonuses to saving throws usually come from cloaks, with vests introduced as an alternative in a later splatbook.

[Tvtyrant]

Enor has flying and would be physically stronger, which suggests victory to me as long as he is willing to go pick up and drop rocks for a while. He can fly as fast or faster than Roy can walk, so if he is careful he will win.

[Knaight]

Then again, Roy's IQ gives him plenty of feats, and he does have a great sword, his favorite weapon- and as we see in his battle with Thog, he does know how to use his IQ to win a fight. Slight advantage to Roy overall- but too close to call.

Having a high intelligence (or wisdom, or charisma, all scores that Roy is pretty solid in) doesn't give you any feats at all. He's likely to have more feats than Enor due to being higher level, but that's about it.

[Bulldog Psion]

Enor has flying and would be physically stronger, which suggests victory to me as long as he is willing to go pick up and drop rocks for a while. He can fly as fast or faster than Roy can walk, so if he is careful he will win.

Yes, that's true, he does have a built-in high ground advantage.

[Kish]

Unless I'm getting my editions confused again, there is, or was, a bonus for magic armor equal to the AC bonus applied to saving throws in D&D.

Am I getting my editions confused again?
There is no such bonus in 3.5ed. You're getting your editions confused again or something.

Feats are, as noted, unrelated to Intelligence (and Intelligence is unrelated to IQ).

[Vrock_Summoner]

Enor has flying and would be physically stronger, which suggests victory to me as long as he is willing to go pick up and drop rocks for a while. He can fly as fast or faster than Roy can walk, so if he is careful he will win.

Actually, Tarquin had his wings bound, likely specifically to avoid this (and escape, but even if he had alternatives to prevent him from running, can you imagine how boring the fly strafing would be for the audience?); Enor was only able to fly away with Gannji because of the T-Rex busting in dramatically and cracking the wing bindings in the process. So if we're specifically talking about what would have happened if they fought in the arena, his flight advantage wouldn't have applied.

[ti'esar]

Enor has flying and would be physically stronger, which suggests victory to me as long as he is willing to go pick up and drop rocks for a while. He can fly as fast or faster than Roy can walk, so if he is careful he will win.

But where would Enor be getting the rocks from? The ones Thog used in his fight were pieces of the arena sides that he ripped out himself while raging. They aren't just lying around, though.

[Bulldog Psion]

But where would Enor be getting the rocks from? The ones Thog used in his fight were pieces of the arena sides that he ripped out himself while raging. They aren't just lying around, though.

True. No flying and no rocks negates that advantage.

[Darth Paul]

There is no such bonus in 3.5ed. You're getting your editions confused again or something.

Feats are, as noted, unrelated to Intelligence (and Intelligence is unrelated to IQ).

As I've noted elsewhere, this is what I get for posting while sleepy.

[Onyavar]

The thread says "no magic items", yet I read several posts about Roys advantage thanks to his armor.

So, what about this hypothetical Arena matchup, the one that Ganji was looking forward to until he realized that Tarquin was screwing him over.
- Enor, wings bound, unbuffed and in nonmagical arena armor and wielding a nonmagical morning star (assuming he was at least proficient with the weapon he used), also able to breathe his electricity
- vs. Roy, unbuffed and in nonmagical arena armor and wiedling a nonmagical greatsword

My guess is like the OP, Roy would win even without plot armor. He has several levels of advantage over Enor. Enor might still be stronger, but a level 14 fighter with STR/CON 16 (?) would still beat a level 8 fighter with STR/CON 20, simply due to higher levels (equaling more feats and more HP). Add that Enor is hampered by his poor willpower; Roy has the intelligence advantage here and would know how to play that.

[Sir_Leorik]

No magic items? What about the Lizardfolk Victory String? Does that count? :smalltongue:

[Onyavar]

The vuctory string isn't magical. Would it even work? I say it depends. In a will save against intimidation or taunt, the string could actually have a placebo effect and really increase the resistance of Enors mind, as long as he believes in it.

I'm not sure how the bonus applies, I'd classify it as a circumstance bonus, as it's clearly not magic, but superstition.

If I were GM and players were trying to pull that off, the victory string would add a little willpower bonus only in very specific situations, definitely not for every kind of will save. Most importantly the victory string shouldn't work against any magic/spells - as it is itself a non-magical morale boost. And to ward the system against munchkins, I'd count the string as a bracelet, it wouldn't stack with any other morale boost, etc...

[Snails]

Re: Haley: If those guards are level 1 Warriors, Haley can average one kill per round even with a stupid non-prof polearm for a very long time because they will not hit her.

Gannji is making a guess to boost his Intimidate attempt. He does not really know. Gannji is surely correct that less equipment helps Enor overall, but that does not answer the big question. Our best guess is that Roy has more HD than Enor, and with that comes BAB. Very roughly speaking, +1 BAB is worth +2 Str. So if Roy is 4 levels higher, he is not necessarily going to be vexed by someone +8 stronger than him.

[Darth Paul]

The thread says "no magic items", yet I read several posts about Roys advantage thanks to his armor.

So, what about this hypothetical Arena matchup, the one that Ganji was looking forward to until he realized that Tarquin was screwing him over.
- Enor, wings bound, unbuffed and in nonmagical arena armor and wielding a nonmagical morning star (assuming he was at least proficient with the weapon he used), also able to breathe his electricity
- vs. Roy, unbuffed and in nonmagical arena armor and wiedling a nonmagical greatsword

My guess is like the OP, Roy would win even without plot armor. He has several levels of advantage over Enor. Enor might still be stronger, but a level 14 fighter with STR/CON 16 (?) would still beat a level 8 fighter with STR/CON 20, simply due to higher levels (equaling more feats and more HP). Add that Enor is hampered by his poor willpower; Roy has the intelligence advantage here and would know how to play that.

Roy's armor entered the discussion because he was wearing it during the initial fight between Roy, Enor, Gannji, and Belkar at the inn. Obviously he would not have it on at the arena. But we don't know what magic items Enor may or may not have been using when he fought various parts of the Order at different times. The Wealth By Level guidelines would indicate he should have some magic armor and a magic weapon, plus minor magic items of other types, even though less powerful than Roy's. I mentioned the armor only because... well, it turned out the original reason I mentioned it was mistaken, but there you go, it got into the conversation. I'm sorry.

Are we certain of Enor's level? I had estimated him somewhat higher than that, maybe 10. If he were only 8th level it becomes really embarrassing for Elan to have been taken down with 2 hits and 1 breath weapon. His templates would both add to his challenge rating as well. I still believe it would be a pretty even fight, maybe with Roy having a slight edge.

[AceOfFools]

My guess is like the OP, Roy would win even without plot armor. He has several levels of advantage over Enor. Enor might still be stronger, but a level 14 fighter with STR/CON 16 (?) would still beat a level 8 fighter with STR/CON 20, simply due to higher levels (equaling more feats and more HP). Add that Enor is hampered by his poor willpower; Roy has the intelligence advantage here and would know how to play that.

Half-dragon ogres have +18 go strength in the edition OotS uses, making a conservative estimate of his Str 34.

3.5 also doesn't grant level or (significant) feat bonus to AC, meaning Roy's AC is likely less than 13 (full plate 2H fighters have severely diminishinges returns on dex).

Enor can probably power attack his entire base attack bonus to damage and still hit Roy on a 2 or 3 (90 to 95% of the time).

Enor can easily do 30+ damage a round with two claws or 2 handed weapon wielding. If he's high enough level to get multiple attacks with a morning star, this can virtually double.

Enor also has an AC over 20 due his natural armor alone, which means Roy can't use much power attack (or if he does he'll often miss), meaning Roy is going to deal significantly less damage than he takes.

Assuming Enor's CR is less or equal to Roy's level, Roy will have substantially more hp, and he does have a significantly higher chance of critting for massive damage.

My assessment is that Enor has a significant advantage if he is built and played intellegently (which is by no means garenteed in OotS, particularly given his int), but not one that Roy can't overcome with a little bit of luck.