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View Full Version : Optimization Optimising a Disciple of the Word (Abandon all hope, ye who enter here)



Jormengand
2015-07-08, 06:16 PM
What am I doing to myself? What I'm doing is making a disciple of the word. Full ten levels of disciple of the word. And optimising it. Yeah. This is a thing. Please, someone, help me.

Okay, let's run down the Disciple of the Word. It's a class which tries to theurge Monk and Truenamer and doesn't advance truespeak, or half the monk's stuff, either. Also, all its class features are terrible except two of them, and they're the last two. Its sole saving grace is that it's badly written and therefore gives you Stunning Fist uses as though it were a monk, and then more as though it weren't (Unless you're not a monk, in which case it only gives them as though it were a monk). So 8 levels of it gives you 10 SF uses, not 8. I'm not complaining. Oh, and actually the prerequisites all being things you wanted anyway is pretty neat. It can be entered at fifth level for no good reason, but we're not actually going to do that.

Let's have a closer look before we work out what we're doing with this thing.

Entry requirements: Like I said, this is easy enough. Base Attack bonus of 4 is the rate determining step of this reaction, with Any Lawful being something we were gonna do anyway, and Truespeak 4, IUAS (Which is free) and Stunning Fist (Which is free and we need it to use all our class features anyway).

Class skills are decent. We can skip the Truename Training feat and simply not put any ranks in truespeak for our monk levels, and then put them in on our first DotW level. This means we'll have an extra skill on our monk levels and lose out on all our skills on our DotW level, but whatever, that's okay. The real kicker is that it shares barely any class skills with either truenamer or monk, which - as you will see, makes for an utter mess of skills later.

Known Personal Truename you already have, and Monk Abilities advances some of your monk stuff. It both does and doesn't alter your FoB penalty, but I'm gonna assume it does.

Word of Movement Sublime is a Stunning Fist and a swift action to use Truespeak instead of Jump, Balance or Tumble. Honestly, that's just something you keep in your back pocket in case you want to jump stupidly high. But thanks, I guess, DotW?

Word of Stance Unyielding is the same deal to prevent trips, bull rushes, and disarms. Disarm me of what, my fists?

Health Restored is like a bad Lay on Hands that can only be used on you. That said, even if you only ever use your Stunning Fists on that, you do restore level^2 * 2 hit points - and it's character level, not DotW level. The trouble is, it's a full action. But oh well.

Movement Perfected is literally Speed of the Zephyr, only somehow worse. Good job.

Reflexes Exalted is Movement Sublime/Stance Unyielding for reflex. For fortitude or will might have been nice (It's basically an auto-pass) but for reflex? Ehh, sometimes useful.

Strike Unstoppable is Ki strike only it requires a Stunning Fist and a truespeak check, but will affect anything up to epic. No word on how this works on things not on the list.

Word of the Fist Unraveling is like Reversed Spell Rebirth, only you get it way, way later, and it costs SFs. Wow.

Word of Harm Avoided can only be used 1/day and needs a SF use, but allows you to dodge one melee attack as an immediate action (with reminder text just in case you didn't know what one of them was) but can't prevent unusually large weapons (2+ sizes bigger than you) or spell effects. I can see possibly wanting to use this on an ubercharger to ruin his day, but really?

Word of Mystic Deflection. My saviour. Counters a spell that only targets you, and no-one else, as an immediate action. That's quite handy. Needs an SF use and a truespeak check, but what doesn't? Also, you're going Truespeak vs CL, you're gonna win.

Word of Speed Unfettered. My other saviour. Why? Okay, it allows you to take a move action right away. The example of what this might let you do is move and full attack in the same turn - pretty neat, given your high movement speed. But, this ability is far, far meaner than it gives itself credit for. Why? Because it's not a swift action, it's an immediate action. You wanna fireball me? Nope, I'm outta here. You're going to charge my friend? You, my good sir, just wasted your full action. This is a pretty sweet capstone, it just doesn't know it yet.

Multiclass note. I can keep monking afterwards. Cool.



Now that we know better than we really ought to about what we're getting into, let's get building. We'll go 32 point buy. Illumian (RoD) is my choice of race most of the time, but Lesser Tiefling doesn't seem so bad here. Funny as anthrobat would be, I'm not sure it'd be that useful with the strength penalty. Let's go 14/14/12/16/14/8 which will immediately bump to 14/16/12/18/14/6. So, everyone hates our character already. Sweet.

So I guess our first port of call is to take two Truenamer levels, then four monk levels? Four truenamer and two monk? Ugh, normally I'd take Truenamer over Monk, but DotW doesn't actually advance truenamer levels at all. So let's start with Truenamer 2/Monk 4/Disciple of the Word 10/Monk 4 as our plan. Aww yiss.

Now, feats. Feats get interesting. We get IUAS, Stunning Fist, Deflect arrows, and, oh, let's say Improved Disarm as bonus feats. Although we don't get the Improved Disarm for ages. Oh well. Monks, by the way, might not be proficient in their own unarmed strikes but Truenamers are, so let's have none of that.

Now, Word Given Form is an ability that anyone, anywhere, who has Truespeak 12, Tumble 12, Combat Expertise, Dodge, IUAS, Mobility and Spring Attack just simply gets. They don't need to spend another feat or skill points, they just get it. But what could be worth such a horrific feat tax? Total Concealment. That's what. You can select a new dodge target on any action, and word given form also gives you total concealment against them. Given that you can talk as a free action even when it's not your turn, you can just mumble under your breath to declare a new dodge, and then bam, instant tower shield, I mean, word given form. That means that the target of your dodge cannot attack you. This is hilariously powerful. And worse, "Attack" includes any spell that could possibly harm you, although that doesn't stop them fireballing you - Word of Speed Unfettered does. You know what's even more horrid? The icing on the cake is the fact that there is only one ability, to my knowledge, in the entire game that can actually get past your ability, and it's Archer's Eye. You're welcome. And one last thing? You can use that total concealment you have to hide. HiPS can suck it. Seriously, I think that they just accidentally put one of the most powerful abilities that no-one realised existed into the game, and the fact that it costs most of your feats is a price I'm willing to pay for something that overpowered.

So, now that we realise that your most powerful ability isn't a class feature, an utterance, or even a feat, we get to see just what a dire situation this is. But at least it is a powerful ability.

Anyway, feats. We just sank 4 on that, and that leaves us with 3 left. You're taking Item Familiar. It's just a thing that's happening. You need those Truespeak bonuses. Taking a feat to give you a third utterance is... tempting. That said, there's not a lot you want. Archer's Eye is powerful against you, but not actually useful for you (You already have Deflect arrows, so there's less point having Protection From them by reversing it), Hidden Truth is fun for truenamers but you're not really a truenamer, Perceive the Unseen is like a bad version of Word Given Form, Silent Caster doesn't last long enough to be useful, Speed of the Zephyr you might want but can kinda do anyway, Strike of Might just deals 10 damage or prevents 5, unless you use it to CdG, Temporal Twist is only useful if you can quicken it which you can't, and we're not desperate enough to take Lesser Word of Nurturing; Fortify Armour and Keen Weapon are both useless because we don't have armour or weapons; Fog from the Void is a pretty useful escape but might not be worth the feat, Shield of the Landscape and Shockwave are bad). But, it's a bit difficult to find anything better to do with our time so, what the hell, Utterance of the Perfected Map (Fog from the Void) it is. I guess we take Improved Initiative at some point so that we can get to declare our dodge faster.

So our feat line-up is Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm as bonus and Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Item Familiar, Improved Initiative, Utterance of the Perfected Map (Fog from the Void). That doesn't even look good. Yeuch. Okay, fine, we can handle this. Ayup.

Right, we brought this upon ourselves. Let's get it over with.

Desiplava Ward, LE Female Tiefling Truenamer 2/Monk 8/Disciple of the Word 10


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
TrN 1
+0
+1
+3
+4
Concentration 4, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 4, Profession (Rudisplorker) 4, Truespeak 4
Dodge
Known Personal Truename, Lesser Word of Nurturing


2nd
TrN 2
+1
+1
+3
+5
Concentration 5, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Profession (Rudisplorker) 5, Truespeak 5
-
Knowledge Focus (Arcana), Universal Aptitude


3rd
TrN 2/Mnk 1
+1
+3
+5
+7
Concentration 6, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Profession (Rudisplorker) 6, Truespeak 5, Tumble 6
Mobility, IUAS, Stunning Fist
FoB, UAS


4th
TrN 2/Mnk 2
+2
+4
+6
+8
Concentration 7, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Profession (Rudisplorker) 7, Spot 5, Truespeak 5, Tumble 7
Deflect Arrows
Evasion


5th
TrN 2/Mnk 3
+3
+4
+6
+8
Concentration 8, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 2 Profession (Rudisplorker) 8, Spot 8, Truespeak 5, Tumble 8
-
Fast Movement, Still Mind


6th
TrN 2/Mnk 4
+4
+5
+7
+9
Concentration 9, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6 Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 5, Tumble 9
Spring Attack
Ki Strike (Magic), Slow fall 20ft


7th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 1
+4
+7
+9
+11
Concentration 10, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 1, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 10, Tumble 10
-
Word of Movement Sublime


8th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 2
+5
+8
+10
+12
Concentration 11, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 6, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 11, Tumble 11
-
Word of the Stance Unyielding


9th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 3
+6
+8
+10
+12
Concentration 12, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 11, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 12, Tumble 12
Combat Expertise
Word of Health Restored


10th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 4
+7
+9
+11
+13
Climb 3, Concentration 13, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 13, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 13, Tumble 13
-
Word of Movement Perfected


11th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 5
+7
+9
+11
+13
Climb 7, Concentration 14, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 14, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 14, Tumble 14
-
Word of Reflexes Exalted.


12th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 6
+8
+10
+12
+14
Climb 11, Concentration 15, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 15, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 15, Tumble 15
Item Familiar
Word of the Strike Unstoppable


13th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 7
+9
+10
+12
+14
Climb 15, Concentration 16, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 16, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 16, Tumble 16
-
Word of the Fist Unraveling


14th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 8
+10
+11
+13
+15
Climb 17, Concentration 17, Escape Artist 2, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 17, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 17, Tumble 17
-
Word of Harm Avoided


15th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 9
+10
+11
+13
+15
Climb 18, Concentration 18, Escape Artist 5, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 18, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 18, Tumble 18
Improved Initiative
Word of Mystic Deflection


16th
TrN 2/Mnk 4/DoW 10
+11
+12
+14
+16
Climb 19, Concentration 19, Escape Artist 8, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 19, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 9, Truespeak 19, Tumble 19
-
Word of Speed Unfettered



17th
TrN 2/Mnk 5/DoW 10
+11
+12
+14
+16
Climb 19, Concentration 19, Escape Artist 8, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 19, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 15, Truespeak 20, Tumble 20
-
Purity of Body



18th
TrN 2/Mnk 6/DoW 10
+12
+13
+15
+17
Climb 19, Concentration 19, Escape Artist 8, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 19, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 21, Truespeak 21, Tumble 21
Utterance of the Perfected Map (Fog from the void), Improved Disarm
Slow Fall 30 ft



19th
TrN 2/Mnk 7/DoW 10
+13
+13
+15
+17
Climb 19, Concentration 19, Escape Artist 8, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 11, Move Silently 19, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 22, Truespeak 22, Tumble 22
-
Wholeness of Body



20th
TrN 2/Mnk 8/DoW 10
+14
+14
+16
+18
Climb 19, Concentration 19, Escape Artist 8, K (Arc/Eng/Nat/Pla/Rel) 5, Listen 16, Move Silently 19, Profession (Rudisplorker) 9, Spot 23, Truespeak 23, Tumble 23
-
Slow Fall 40 feet.




Desiplava Ward, Aspiring Champion
Size/Type: Humanoid (Planetouched)
Hit Dice: 2d6+3d8+4 (27 HP)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armour Class: 14 (2 Dex, 2 Wis) Touch: 14 Flat Footed: 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Unarmed Strike +5 1d6+2
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +5 1d6+2 or Flurry of Blows +3/+3 1d6+2
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Universal Aptitude, Word of Nurturing
Special Qualities: Known Personal Truename, Still Mind
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +8
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 19, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Concentration +9, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) +9, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Listen +4 Profession (Rudisplorker) +10, Spot +10, Truespeak +9, Tumble +11
Feats: Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Stunning Fist,
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: By Character Class
Level Adjustment: 0

At this point, Desiplava is a bit awful. She can utter easily enough with an amulet of the silver tongue and a masterwork tool, and 2d6+4 damage will hurt - it's just a pity that the average fighter will do more in a single swing. Oh well. We're just getting warmed up, and anyway, it's not as though that obscenely long list of skills and 3/day Stunning Fist is going to hurt us too much. She might want to wear bracers of armour, too.

Desiplava Ward, Disciple of the Win
Size/Type: Humanoid (Planetouched)
Hit Dice: 2d6+8d8+10 (55 HP)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
Armour Class: 14 (2 Dex, 2 Wis 1 Monk) Touch: 15 Flat Footed: 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+9
Attack: Unarmed Strike +9 1d10+2
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +9/+4 1d10+2 or Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3 1d10+2
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Ki Strike (Magic), Unarmed Strike, Universal Aptitude, Word of Nurturing
Special Qualities: Known Personal Truename, Slow Fall (20 ft), Still Mind, Word of Health Restored, Word of Movement Perfected, Word of Movement Sublime, Word of Reflexes Exalted, Word of the Stance Unyielding, Word of the Strike Unstoppable
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +11, Will +13
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +5, Concentration +14, Knowledge (Arcana) +13, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) +10, Knowledge (Nature) +10, Knowledge (Religion) +10, Knowledge (The Planes) +10, Listen +8, Move Silently +16, Profession (Rudisplorker) +11, Spot +11, Truespeak +18, Tumble +16
Feats: Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Stunning Fist,
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: By Character Class
Level Adjustment: 0

Right, so this is how the average combat with Desiplava will pan out.

Fighter McFighterton: Aha! I see you, vile monk! Your fists are no match for my blade!
Desiplava Ward: I DECLARE MY DODGE ON YOU! (http://www.goblinscomic.org/02042006/)
Fighter McFighterson: Oh my god, where did she go? How did she do that? She was there, and now she's gone! I suppose she could be exactly where she was a moment ago... but oh, that's just too crazy, she's gotta be somewhere else! (https://youtu.be/mQHCEUvc4Q0?t=15m19s)
Desiplava: *Punch punch kick whack pow*
Fighter: Hmm, where could these mysterious kicks and punches be coming from? I just don't know; I just don't know at all. *Dies*.

Stick a monk's belt on her to up her to 2d6 per whack, knock her AC up by one, and give her another Stunning Fist, and you're golden.

I might do the level 15 and 20 statblocks later, but the pertinent details are that by level 16, she can ignore single-target spells and just walk out of area spells before they can hit her. You're welcome.

EDIT:


Okay, this is what I've come up with:

Equipment: Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 GP), Boots of Teleportation (49,000 GP), Bracers of Armour +8 (64,000 GP), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 GP) Headband of Intellect +6 (36,000 GP), Monk's Tattoo (80,000 GP), Necklace of Natural Weapons (Throwing Returning Wounding Speed Ghost Touch Shock +1) (200,600 GP), Ring of Permanent Greater Mighty Wallop CL 16 (96,000 GP), Ring of Truespeak Competence (10,000 GP), Vestments of the Silver Tongue (15,000 GP), Wings of Flying (54,000 GP).

That's not even all my money.

Desiplava Ward, Disciple of the Win
Size/Type: Humanoid (Planetouched)
Hit Dice: 2d6+18d8+20 (110 HP)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 100 ft (20 squares) Fly 60 ft (Good) (12 squares)
Armour Class: 29 (5 Dex, 2 Wis 4 Monk 8 Bracers of Armour) Touch: 21 Flat Footed: 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+19
Attack: Unarmed Strike Melee +20 12d6+6 +1d6 electricity +1 constitution or Unarmed Strike Ranged +21 12d6+6 +1d6 electricity +1 constitution
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike Melee +20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10 12d6+6 +1d6 electricity +1 constitution or Unarmed Strike Ranged +21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+11 12d6+6 +1d6 electricity +1 constitution
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Fog from the Void, Ki Strike (Magic), Stunning Fist (21/day) Unarmed Strike, Universal Aptitude, Word of Nurturing, Word of the Fist Unraveling, Word of the Strike Unstoppable
Special Qualities: Known Personal Truename, Purity of Body, Slow Fall (40 ft), Still Mind, Word Given Form mastery, Wholeness of Body Word of Harm Avoided, Word of Health Restored, Word of Movement Perfected, Word of Movement Sublime, Word of Mystic Deflection, Word of Reflexes Exalted, Word of Speed Unfettered, Word of the Stance Unyielding
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +19, Will +18
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 29, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +24, Concentration +20, Escape Artist +14, Knowledge (Arcana) +17, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) +14, Knowledge (Nature) +14, Knowledge (Religion) +14, Knowledge (The Planes) +14, Listen +18, Move Silently +25, Profession (Rudisplorker) +11, Spot +25, Truespeak +68, Tumble +29
Feats: Combat Expertise, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Item Familiar, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist, Utterance of the Perfected Map (Fog from the void)
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: By Character Class
Level Adjustment: 0

This isn't just a monk. This is an untargetable flying monk of doom and lightning and infinite fists and punching. Fear her, for she is Desiplava Ward!

Please feel free to add comments, suggestions, etc.

noob
2015-07-08, 06:26 PM
Looks pretty cool but it needs now more offensive power and utterances and fists from a few monk levels does not gives that sadly.

Jormengand
2015-07-08, 06:34 PM
Looks pretty cool but it needs now more offensive power and utterances and fists from a few monk levels does not gives that sadly.

Well.

The monk's belt allows the tenth-level Desiplava to deal 6d6+6 damage to something on a full attack. Given that Desi can't actually be targeted by the creature whose butt she's handing to it, she only needs to be able to do so much to it. Amulets of Mighty Fists will cost you, but they also increase your damage output.

noob
2015-07-08, 06:40 PM
I was thinking of offensive power for when you are teaming with other players(in dnd stuff gets funnier when you can play as a team and in this case being immortal is cool for scouting and so on but dealing more damage is also useful for helping your allies to not loose and die hit by the monsters also when you are in front of two casters you can only avoid the fireball of the first one each turn and so dealing more damage helps you at defeating them)
But I guess having all is hard.
(After level 16 I guess using the prestige class you want for increasing your damage is the player choice(for example beholder mage))

Blackhawk748
2015-07-08, 06:45 PM
Did...did you just make a Monk/Truenamer useful??? I am impressed, now you just need a custom magic item of Greater Mighty Wallop and some Wings of Flying, and probably an Amulet of Natural attacks, and you are golden.

Troacctid
2015-07-08, 06:49 PM
Explain why you have a Truenamer dip in this build? It seems highly unnecessary.

Jormengand
2015-07-08, 07:01 PM
Explain why you have a Truenamer dip in this build? It seems highly unnecessary.

Well, given that I require an outrageously high truespeak check anyway, I may as well use it to get NI healing and the insanely useful Universal Aptitude. Also, it saves me a feat on Truename Training - I know I could have used Factotum, but the first two levels of that aren't insanely appealing, either.

I mean, really, the way to do this is probably actually to get the prereqs as fast as possible, grab a level of it, then go Ur Priest 5, and then begrudgingly take the remaining DotW levels, as noob pointed out, but I'd rather keep in the spirit of it, y'know?


Did...did you just make a Monk/Truenamer useful??? I am impressed, now you just need a custom magic item of Greater Mighty Wallop and some Wings of Flying, and probably an Amulet of Natural attacks, and you are golden.

I can't find the Amulet of Natural Attacks, where is it?

But yeah, Word Given Form mastery is so powerful I think it's probably a mistake. It's like Wizards forgot what (Ex) - in fact, not even (Ex), untyped - total concealment, no ifs no buts, actually did.

Sagetim
2015-07-08, 07:08 PM
Did...did you just make a Monk/Truenamer useful??? I am impressed, now you just need a custom magic item of Greater Mighty Wallop and some Wings of Flying, and probably an Amulet of Natural attacks, and you are golden.

Redeemed (Book of Exalted Deeds) Fiendish Wing Grafts (Fiend Folio), and I'm pretty sure there's another monk item that boosts effective monk levels out there in addition to the monk's belt. Bracers of something? No, not bracers, Monk's Tattoo's from Magic of Faerun. Granted, converting that from 3.0 to 3.5 would probably bring the cost down from 80k to 26k, the cost of a monk's belt that doesn't take up magic item space.

ExLibrisMortis
2015-07-08, 07:10 PM
Word of Harm Avoided is just so... so hair-tearingly terrible to read. You get one use per day, and it requires a SF use, and it requires an immediate action, and it requires a Truespeak check opposed by the attack roll, and you must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed, and you must have a hand free, and it doesn't work on unusually large weapons or spells. It's like they piled on every restriction possible, without an eye for balance - or sense. As you get bigger than your target, you get a relative penalty to hit, for crying out loud.


I like how you squeezed that much power from such a collection of absolutely crappy feats and skills. I had no idea it was possible. It's quite beautiful.

Red Fel
2015-07-08, 07:14 PM
I can't find the Amulet of Natural Attacks, where is it?

That's either a reference to the Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists) or the Necklace of Natural Weapons (Savage Species). The former gives you a flat +X to all natural weapons, which is great for a natural attacks monster, but for a Monk, I'd go with the latter. The nice thing about the Necklace is that you can enhance it as you would a weapon, numbers or powers, and then apply those enhancements to one natural weapon of your choice - such as unarmed strikes. (Hence how some people get Thrown Returning Wounding fists.) It's considered a must-have for any Monk build.

So, looking at this, I have to say... It's not overwhelmingly powerful, relatively speaking, but for what it is it's shockingly good. Kudos are indeed in order.

http://voicetalentproductions.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/kudos-bar.jpg

Have some chocolate chip.

Jormengand
2015-07-08, 07:17 PM
Redeemed (Book of Exalted Deeds) Fiendish Wing Grafts (Fiend Folio), and I'm pretty sure there's another monk item that boosts effective monk levels out there in addition to the monk's belt. Bracers of something? No, not bracers, Monk's Tattoo's from Magic of Faerun. Granted, converting that from 3.0 to 3.5 would probably bring the cost down from 80k to 26k, the cost of a monk's belt that doesn't take up magic item space.

It does also up your speed, apparently.

Also, found the necklace of natural attacks. It seems to endorse allowing you to throw your natural attacks, which is awesome and I want to do it.

Red Fel
2015-07-08, 07:27 PM
Also, found the necklace of natural attacks. It seems to endorse allowing you to throw your natural attacks, which is awesome and I want to do it.

Mazinger Z approves.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Mazinger_punch_8493.jpg

Troacctid
2015-07-08, 07:53 PM
Well, given that I require an outrageously high truespeak check anyway, I may as well use it to get NI healing and the insanely useful Universal Aptitude. Also, it saves me a feat on Truename Training - I know I could have used Factotum, but the first two levels of that aren't insanely appealing, either.

I mean, really, the way to do this is probably actually to get the prereqs as fast as possible, grab a level of it, then go Ur Priest 5, and then begrudgingly take the remaining DotW levels, as noob pointed out, but I'd rather keep in the spirit of it, y'know?

You only need 4 ranks of Truespeak, so you can just take it cross-class. Then it becomes a class skill once you get into Disciple. You don't even need to spend double skill points if you take Able Learner, which, honestly, is probably a good feat to take anyway, considering Disciple of the Word's horrible class skill list.

Also, I think you are overselling Word Given Form a bit. I mean, it's admittedly really good, but:
You can only change your Dodge target during your own action, so you can't switch it on someone else's turn.
You can't be attacked or targeted directly, true, but they can still guess your square and make weapon attacks with a 50% miss chance if they guess right.
Total concealment is not a tower shield. That's total cover. Different thing.
The ability is significantly less exciting on a build with 7 levels of Monk. Dark Moon Disciple substitution levels give you shadow blend at Monk 7, which provides constant always-on total concealment (as long as you're not in direct sunlight) against all your opponents, with no feat tax, even if you're flat-footed or surprised. It's basically the same thing except better, unless the enemy has Daylight prepared for some weird reason.
While you can technically use total concealment to hide, there's no real reason to do so, since you're already invisible with respect to them, which makes hiding redundant. (I guess that's actually a place where you undersold it.)

Jormengand
2015-07-08, 08:00 PM
Okay, this is what I've come up with:

Equipment: Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 GP), Boots of Teleportation (49,000 GP), Bracers of Armour +8 (64,000 GP), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 GP) Headband of Intellect +6 (36,000 GP), Monk's Tattoo (80,000 GP), Necklace of Natural Weapons (Throwing Returning Wounding Speed Ghost Touch Shock +1) (200,600 GP), Ring of Permanent Greater Mighty Wallop CL 16 (96,000 GP), Ring of Truespeak Competence (10,000 GP), Vestments of the Silver Tongue (15,000 GP), Wings of Flying (54,000 GP).

That's not even all my money.

Desiplava Ward, Disciple of the Win
Size/Type: Humanoid (Planetouched)
Hit Dice: 2d6+18d8+20 (110 HP)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 100 ft (20 squares) Fly 60 ft (Good) (12 squares)
Armour Class: 29 (5 Dex, 2 Wis 4 Monk 8 Bracers of Armour) Touch: 21 Flat Footed: 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+19
Attack: Unarmed Strike Melee +20 12d6+6 +1d6 electricity +1 constitution or Unarmed Strike Ranged +21 12d6+6 +1d6 electricity +1 constitution
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike Melee +20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10 12d6+6 +1d6 electricity +1 constitution or Unarmed Strike Ranged +21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+11 12d6+6 +1d6 electricity +1 constitution
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Fog from the Void, Ki Strike (Magic), Stunning Fist (21/day) Unarmed Strike, Universal Aptitude, Word of Nurturing, Word of the Fist Unraveling, Word of the Strike Unstoppable
Special Qualities: Known Personal Truename, Purity of Body, Slow Fall (40 ft), Still Mind, Word Given Form mastery, Wholeness of Body Word of Harm Avoided, Word of Health Restored, Word of Movement Perfected, Word of Movement Sublime, Word of Mystic Deflection, Word of Reflexes Exalted, Word of Speed Unfettered, Word of the Stance Unyielding
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +19, Will +18
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 29, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +24, Concentration +20, Escape Artist +14, Knowledge (Arcana) +17, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) +14, Knowledge (Nature) +14, Knowledge (Religion) +14, Knowledge (The Planes) +14, Listen +18, Move Silently +25, Profession (Rudisplorker) +11, Spot +25, Truespeak +68, Tumble +29
Feats: Combat Expertise, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Item Familiar, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist, Utterance of the Perfected Map (Fog from the void)
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: By Character Class
Level Adjustment: 0

This isn't just a monk. This is an untargetable flying monk of doom and lightning and infinite fists and punching. Fear her, for she is Desiplava Ward!


You only need 4 ranks of Truespeak, so you can just take it cross-class. Then it becomes a class skill once you get into Disciple. You don't even need to spend double skill points if you take Able Learner, which, honestly, is probably a good feat to take anyway, considering Disciple of the Word's horrible class skill list.

Ehh. I quite like having the utterances in my back pocket anyway, though.


Also, I think you are overselling Word Given Form a bit. I mean, it's admittedly really good, but:
You can only change your Dodge target during your own action, so you can't switch it on someone else's turn.

Yes, I can. Immediate actions.

You can't be attacked or targeted directly, true, but they can still guess your square and make weapon attacks with a 50% miss chance if they guess right.
True, but you have spring attack and you later obtain ranged punching. Good luck guessing my square.


Total concealment is not a tower shield. That's total cover. Different thing.
I know, it was a joke.


The ability is significantly less exciting on a build with 7 levels of Monk. Dark Moon Disciple substitution levels give you shadow blend at Monk 7, which provides constant always-on total concealment (as long as you're not in direct sunlight) against all your opponents, with no feat tax, even if you're flat-footed or surprised. It's basically the same thing except better, unless the enemy has Daylight prepared for some weird reason.
Is it Total Concealment, though?


While you can technically use total concealment to hide, there's no real reason to do so, since you're already invisible with respect to them, which makes hiding redundant. (I guess that's actually a place where you undersold it.)

Yeah, I know, I just thought it was funny. It might also let you stay hidden while redeclaring your dodge, but that's very, very iffy.

Troacctid
2015-07-08, 08:12 PM
Yes, shadow blend is total concealment. You can also get it from the Shadow template (+2 LA) at an even lower ECL, along with some other perks like evasion and fast healing and stuff, if you don't want to take 7 levels of Monk; it's one of the few +2 LA templates that are actually worth it. Shadow Blend is kind of a stupidly strong ability.

You can't switch the target of Dodge during someone else's turn because the feat specifically says you have to designate the target during your own action (AKA your own turn). You need an additional feat to be able to switch it as an immediate action.

Jormengand
2015-07-08, 08:14 PM
You can't switch the target of Dodge during someone else's turn because the feat specifically says you have to designate the target during your own action (AKA your own turn). You need an additional feat to be able to switch it as an immediate action.

It says no such thing.


During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action.

Sagetim
2015-07-08, 08:17 PM
I think I forgot to mention that the fiendish wings give nonmagical flying speed, didn't I? Which means they can't be dispelled. Though, they can't be removed either, they're a graft. Which is why you get them redeemed (at a rather reasonable cost too, since their base price is 10k). You can still wear a cloak if you have wings, right?

Oh, and more savage species fun: get a druid to cast greater magic fang on you at +5, then get permanency cast on it. And if the necklace counts as a weapon, you might be able to get away with having weapon of energy and permanency cast on it as well (multiple times, even, for more elements).

Alternatively, get bracers of striking (which can be enchanted as a bludgeoning weapon, Magic of Faerun again), and get that enchanted with the weapon abilities you want while you wear a dyrr's impervious vestment instead of bracers of armor (vestment is +9 armor to ac, from complete arcane). This frees up your amulet slot for natural armor, truespeaking, and maybe wis bonus too. The advantage of the bracers of striking is that due to their wording they Can have the weapon of energy permanency abuse thrown on them. That said, like any permanency it's just a dispel away from not being.

Jormengand
2015-07-08, 08:20 PM
I think I forgot to mention that the fiendish wings give nonmagical flying speed, didn't I? Which means they can't be dispelled. Though, they can't be removed either, they're a graft. Which is why you get them redeemed (at a rather reasonable cost too, since their base price is 10k). You can still wear a cloak if you have wings, right?

Oh, and more savage species fun: get a druid to cast greater magic fang on you at +5, then get permanency cast on it. And if the necklace counts as a weapon, you might be able to get away with having weapon of energy and permanency cast on it as well (multiple times, even, for more elements).

Alternatively, get bracers of striking (which can be enchanted as a bludgeoning weapon, Magic of Faerun again), and get that enchanted with the weapon abilities you want while you wear a dyrr's impervious vestment instead of bracers of armor (vestment is +9 armor to ac, from complete arcane). This frees up your amulet slot for natural armor, truespeaking, and maybe wis bonus too. The advantage of the bracers of striking is that due to their wording they Can have the weapon of energy permanency abuse thrown on them. That said, like any permanency it's just a dispel away from not being.

:smalleek:

Okay, this tiefling is gonna end up positively terrifying. I'll do more updating tomorrow, and see just how much I can get out of her.

IZ42
2015-07-08, 09:06 PM
I like this build. Gratz, Jorm, though I personally think it needs a little bit of Gouda on top. Sadly, I'm a PF expert, not 3.5.

Also, Jorm, your inbox is full. I tried to send you a PM. Fix it, please.

Waddacku
2015-07-08, 10:07 PM
Midnight Dodge could net another dodge target. The only other thing I know that gives more dodge targets is the Rokugan Ninja.
You also qualify for Elusive Target.

Demidos
2015-07-08, 10:22 PM
You mentioned you had a spare-ish feat, and seem to have fairly many skills, and not much to spend them on. You should consider some optimization there -- ditch the rather useless ranks in climb, architecture, escape artist, and (sadly) rudisplorker, and you can max out quite a few of the knowledges. What for, you ask? Knowledge Devotion. Get that +4 to 5 to almost every attack, both to hit and damage, and also be able to identify the powers of many of the creatures and enemies you fight.

Also, with some extra skill points you can get skill tricks (such as the one that allows you to stand instantly from prone, and Sleight of Hand on someone who is completely invisible seems pretty handy.

Blackhawk748
2015-07-09, 05:44 AM
Midnight Dodge could net another dodge target. The only other thing I know that gives more dodge targets is the Rokugan Ninja.
You also qualify for Elusive Target.

Wait a minute, whats that alternate Dodge where you have to move to get the bonus? Could that work here?

dysprosium
2015-07-09, 07:22 AM
You also qualify for Elusive Target.

Yes, Elusive Target goes great with the build you are going with.

I would pick Elusive Target over Combat Expertise for your build personally.

Jormengand
2015-07-09, 10:51 AM
Also, Jorm, your inbox is full. I tried to send you a PM. Fix it, please.

My inbox isn't at all full. Yours probably is.


Midnight Dodge could net another dodge target. The only other thing I know that gives more dodge targets is the Rokugan Ninja.
You also qualify for Elusive Target.
Midnight Dodge doesn't actually affect the functionality of Word Given Form, only counts as a prerequisite for it. You only get concealment against your Dodge target, not your Midnight Dodge target.

Elusive Target only works when your Dodge target, who can't attack you, attacks you. Or, it requires that you provoke an AoO which you probably won't be provoking anyway.


You mentioned you had a spare-ish feat, and seem to have fairly many skills, and not much to spend them on. You should consider some optimization there -- ditch the rather useless ranks in climb, architecture, escape artist, and (sadly) rudisplorker, and you can max out quite a few of the knowledges. What for, you ask? Knowledge Devotion. Get that +4 to 5 to almost every attack, both to hit and damage, and also be able to identify the powers of many of the creatures and enemies you fight.
They're not class skills except for the Truenamer.


Also, with some extra skill points you can get skill tricks (such as the one that allows you to stand instantly from prone, and Sleight of Hand on someone who is completely invisible seems pretty handy.
I dunno which skill trick that is or how to get it, and I don't get SoH as a class skill.


Yes, Elusive Target goes great with the build you are going with.

I would pick Elusive Target over Combat Expertise for your build personally.

Uhm, you don't want to be getting rid of Combat Expertise any more than you do Dodge, Mobility, IUAS, Spring Attack or your tumble or truespeak ranks. Because you kinda need it.

dysprosium
2015-07-09, 11:25 AM
Uhm, you don't want to be getting rid of Combat Expertise any more than you do Dodge, Mobility, IUAS, Spring Attack or your tumble or truespeak ranks. Because you kinda need it.

You're right. My fault for failing how to read the prerequisites for Word Given Form.

Elusive Target is still a great feat though.

Telonius
2015-07-09, 11:41 AM
About five years ago, I posted an April Fool's joke (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-147518.html) that combined Monk and Truenamer into something cool. The first comment was:

If this is as good as it sounds, I just don't know what to think. It's like mixing crap with pee and getting orange soda.

And (sure enough) somebody in the comments mentioned Disciple of the Word. You've actually managed to pull it off.

I'll be off drinking my orange soda now.

http://www.recapo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/shutterstock_102894812.jpg

Zubrowka74
2015-07-09, 11:42 AM
Word of Movement Sublime has me thinking... Could you squeeze in some jumplomancy in there?

Flickerdart
2015-07-09, 12:03 PM
Word of Movement Sublime has me thinking... Could you squeeze in some jumplomancy in there?
Redundant - an Exemplar could just choose Truespeech for Skill Artistry and now have to waste SF uses or take Disciple of the Word.


Wait a minute, whats that alternate Dodge where you have to move to get the bonus? Could that work here?
Expeditious Dodge doesn't have a target, so it does nothing.

Sagetim
2015-07-09, 09:08 PM
Just wanted to say:
Don't forget that Monk's Belt and Monk's Tattoo's stack. The tattoo's specify that they do not stack with themselves (so you can't get 5 monk's tatttoo's to count as a monk 20 levels higher) but the monk's belt makes no such mention, and neither mention what kind of bonus they are typed as, so they can stack to allow you to act as a monk 9 levels higher than normal (4 for tats, 5 for belt).

Jormengand
2015-07-10, 10:13 AM
Just wanted to say:
Don't forget that Monk's Belt and Monk's Tattoo's stack. The tattoo's specify that they do not stack with themselves (so you can't get 5 monk's tatttoo's to count as a monk 20 levels higher) but the monk's belt makes no such mention, and neither mention what kind of bonus they are typed as, so they can stack to allow you to act as a monk 9 levels higher than normal (4 for tats, 5 for belt).

Yes, but epic monks don't get any more damage.

Segev
2015-07-10, 10:52 AM
It's mentioned that Word Given Form is not a class feature or feat, but something somebody with certain prerequisites "just gets."

I do not have access to my Tome of Magic. Could somebody please outline what it is and how it is gotten, please? (Or did I just miss something obvious somewhere?)

Flickerdart
2015-07-10, 10:59 AM
It's mentioned that Word Given Form is not a class feature or feat, but something somebody with certain prerequisites "just gets."

I do not have access to my Tome of Magic. Could somebody please outline what it is and how it is gotten, please? (Or did I just miss something obvious somewhere?)
It's a Martial Art. They were introduced in OA and AFAIK don't exist in first party material other than that. You get it as soon as you meet the prerequisites, without having to pay anything else.

Segev
2015-07-10, 11:02 AM
It's a Martial Art. They were introduced in OA and AFAIK don't exist in first party material other than that. You get it as soon as you meet the prerequisites, without having to pay anything else.

Interesting. And probably a good mechanical design tool on some level. I may have to pick up a copy of OA somewhere to take a look.

daremetoidareyo
2015-07-10, 11:24 PM
Did someone say that you needed more dodges?

Planar touchstone: The Monastery of Zerth’Ad’lun grants the following ability: You gain a +1 dodge bonus against melee attacks. If a melee opponent makes a full attack (two or more melee attacks) against you, your dodge bonus increases to +2.

The higher order ability is awesome also.

Jormengand
2015-07-11, 08:05 AM
Did someone say that you needed more dodges?

Planar touchstone: The Monastery of Zerth’Ad’lun grants the following ability: You gain a +1 dodge bonus against melee attacks. If a melee opponent makes a full attack (two or more melee attacks) against you, your dodge bonus increases to +2.

The higher order ability is awesome also.

I don't need more dodge bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus), I need to be able to declare my dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#dodge) on multiple targets.

daremetoidareyo
2015-07-16, 12:30 AM
Found it. The bad news is that it requires two feats to pull off.

Combat focus + Combat defense from PHB2

Combat defense: "While you maintain your combat focus, you can change the target of your Dodge feat to a new opponent as an immediate action".

Jormengand
2015-07-16, 10:35 AM
Found it. The bad news is that it requires two feats to pull off.

Combat focus + Combat defense from PHB2

Combat defense: "While you maintain your combat focus, you can change the target of your Dodge feat to a new opponent as an immediate action".

The bad news is that it doesn't actually do what I want it to. Plus, you can change your dodge target as a free action when it's not your turn anyway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#speak) because you can do it on any action.

Segev
2015-07-16, 11:33 AM
Psionic Dodge gives you a second dodge target to assign (which can stack with the first if you assign to the same one). Does it count for this purpose?

Jormengand
2015-07-16, 12:18 PM
Psionic Dodge gives you a second dodge target to assign (which can stack with the first if you assign to the same one). Does it count for this purpose?

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work the way you think it does: it only increases your dodge bonus by +1 on the same assigned target.

EDIT: The talking thing has given me a thought, though: can't I just mutter under my breath on any creature's action to prevent that creature targeting me?

Which is hilarious?

Right?

Cerefel
2015-08-05, 01:18 AM
I dunno which skill trick that is or how to get it, and I don't get SoH as a class skill.


I'm pretty sure you can just stand as a free action if you make a high enough tumble check. DC 35 I think