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Tyger
2007-04-30, 08:21 AM
OK, my DM has implemented two new houserules. The first (which I like) is that the cleric's spontaneous healing spells continue up beyond the Cure Critical Wounds spell. In essence, that spell scales up in d8's per spell level, which gives a bit more versatility to the high level healer casting. I like this, and it makes sense to me.

The second one though, is making me scratch my head and wonder if its worth it. In essence, you can memorize (or cast if your a spontaneous caster) a spell at a higher level than normal. For each level above that you cast the spell, you add one die to the damage. For example, at 10th level, you cast a Fireball for 10d6. If you memorize it as a fourth level spell instead, it does 11d6, 5th does 12d6 etc.

Leaving aside the obvious complications and loops here, would this ever be worth it? I can't imagine this outperforming Empowering the spell, unless you go to extremes. Sure, at 20th level you could memorize a 9th level Fireball for 19d6 damage, or in that same slot, you could memorize an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball and do (effectively) 30d6.

Am I missing something obvious here? I can think of a few possible interesting uses for this... a 5th level Black Tentacles would do 2d6+4 damage... etc., but overall, this seems an odd choice. He's a smart guy, so I have the feeling that I am missing something here. Any thoughts?

Indon
2007-04-30, 08:23 AM
Well, aside from adding a little something to a never-used spellcaster option, meh.

Though, those would be some pretty damned impressive Magic Missiles.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 08:27 AM
Anything that does ability damage will be hellaciously good.

Tyger
2007-04-30, 08:40 AM
Actually, Magic Missile gets confusing... he's changed that one to add additional missiles per every two caster levels, if you also increase it by the corresponding level. So at level 11 you can cast it as a 2nd level spell to get another missile, at level 13 two extra missiles if you cast it as a third, etc.

Ability damage spells... never thought of those! And even the draining spells... wonder if they would apply. A level 3 Ray of Enfeeblement would be hellaciously good! Back to the drawing board!

Dausuul
2007-04-30, 08:52 AM
Actually, Magic Missile gets confusing... he's changed that one to add additional missiles per every two caster levels, if you also increase it by the corresponding level. So at level 11 you can cast it as a 2nd level spell to get another missile, at level 13 two extra missiles if you cast it as a third, etc.

Ability damage spells... never thought of those! And even the draining spells... wonder if they would apply. A level 3 Ray of Enfeeblement would be hellaciously good! Back to the drawing board!

Since this was a house rule to start with, I'm guessing the DM will nix the bonus damage applying to ability damage. I sure would. It's not like you can quote RAW at him. :)

In general, it would be an extremely sub-optimal choice, but not entirely useless. Mostly it would be handy for a spontaneous caster who had (for example) burned up all her 3rd-level slots and wanted to use a 4th-level slot to cast fireball.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 08:54 AM
Ability damage spells... never thought of those! And even the draining spells... wonder if they would apply. A level 3 Ray of Enfeeblement would be hellaciously good! Back to the drawing board!

If I'm not mistaken, Ray of Enfeeblement is a penalty, technically not damage. Shivering Touch, however....

Tyger
2007-04-30, 09:31 AM
Well, what he's said is that "any spell who's effects are determined by dice"... which is really vague and leaves a lot to interpretation. As the sole caster (at the moment anyway) in the party, I think he and I will have to sit down and discuss this at length. I agree that in most cases (especially when it comes to direct damage spells) this will be a sub-optimal choice, with simply empowering the spell being much more effective. But there are instances where it can and does work... now I just need to work that out with him.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 09:32 AM
Well, what he's said is that "any spell who's effects are determined by dice"... which is really vague and leaves a lot to interpretation. As the sole caster (at the moment anyway) in the party, I think he and I will have to sit down and discuss this at length. I agree that in most cases (especially when it comes to direct damage spells) this will be a sub-optimal choice, with simply empowering the spell being much more effective. But there are instances where it can and does work... now I just need to work that out with him.

Oh, wow. Hellllo enervation+rod of maximize.

[edit]Or empower, which I think would be a little cheaper for essentially the same returns.

Armads
2007-04-30, 09:40 AM
now you can deal 20 negative levels with a successful ranged touch attack! With 9th level enervation + greater rod of maximize

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 09:55 AM
And that's how you shut a Balor down....

Acid splash, cast at level 20 as a ninth level spell, would do 20d3 damage, no sr, no save. Which is 90 pure damage with maximize. But ehhh, you've got better things to be doing. Like Enervating.

daggaz
2007-04-30, 09:57 AM
Yeah, the second rule is completely imbalanced if you use it for anything besides direct damage.

With direct damage only, its basically just like a weak metamagic feat that you get for free. Personally, I wouldn't hardly ever use it. But that's just me.

NullAshton
2007-04-30, 10:01 AM
Perhaps limit it to ONLY extra damage? Having higher level ability damage would convert the extra damage to negative energy damage, a la sneak attack.

Tyger
2007-04-30, 10:05 AM
Yeah, that's my thinking as well. It should be limited to direct damage, or it makes some spells just too darned powerful. And on direct damage spells, it doesn't really do enough to make it worthwile. We'll talk it over soon, and try and figure it out a bit.

Armads
2007-05-01, 05:42 AM
Hmm... if you limit it purely to direct damage, a 9th level scorching ray would deal 33d6. That's very weak, since meteor swarm does better than that (and meteor swarm is weak for a 9th level spell)

Soepvork
2007-05-01, 07:51 AM
OK, my DM has implemented two new houserules. The first (which I like) is that the cleric's spontaneous healing spells continue up beyond the Cure Critical Wounds spell. In essence, that spell scales up in d8's per spell level, which gives a bit more versatility to the high level healer casting. I like this, and it makes sense to me.


Why not just allow the spontaneous casting of "Hea"l on a 6th level slot? It seems the logical progression of spontaneous casting of "cure ...wounds" spells.

Tyger
2007-05-01, 08:20 AM
Why not just allow the spontaneous casting of "Hea"l on a 6th level slot? It seems the logical progression of spontaneous casting of "cure ...wounds" spells.

I think its mostly because Heal is out of step with the other traditional Cure XXX Wounds spells but he wants high level healers to have alternate ideas. But it hasn't come up because our cleric is gone for the summer... so we'll see what happens when he comes back. :)

EvilDave
2007-05-01, 01:30 PM
Does this involve increasing the save DC of the spell (as per the [complete crap of a] metamagic feat Heighten Spell)? If so, it's certainly an improvement over an extremely subpar Metamagic feat and you'd get it free. I wouldn't complain : )

Jasdoif
2007-05-01, 08:13 PM
Leaving aside the obvious complications and loops here, would this ever be worth it? I can't imagine this outperforming Empowering the spell, unless you go to extremes. Sure, at 20th level you could memorize a 9th level Fireball for 19d6 damage, or in that same slot, you could memorize an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball and do (effectively) 30d6.I think the potential of using this ability outside of hit point damage has been well-covered, so let me expound upon the application of it to "typical" hit point damage.

(insert nearly-mandatory remark about the general inferiority of direct damage spells for wizards here, and move on)

This house rule provides a benefit until you hit the regular cap for damage, then loses effectiveness.

For example, fireball is a 3rd level spell that deals 1d6 per CL, normally to a max of 10d6. At CL 10, you could also have cone of cold, a 5th level spell that deals 1d6 per CL (to a max of 15d6, but that doesn't matter right now in this example).

With this house rule, at CL10 you could prepare cone of cold in a 5th level slot to do 10d6 damage, or prepare a fireball in a 5th level slot to do 12d6 damage. That's an average of 7 extra damage for a spell you already had. If you have issues with getting all the new spells you want (ie you can't get extra spells to copy, or you're a sorceror), this lets you get some extra worth out of your lower level spells.

This advantage starts to fade once you're past the cap, though. At CL11, you could use a 6th level slot to do 13d6 with fireball, or 12d6 with cone of cold. At CL12, fireball and cone of cold are both 13d6. At CL13, using a 7th level slot would get you 14d6 with fireball, but 15d6 with cone of cold. Incidentally, at this level you could have delayed blast fireball, but it will only do its standard 13d6.


You could certainly metamagic the base spells for better results, but is it worth the feats to you?

Douglas
2007-05-01, 08:52 PM
OK, my DM has implemented two new houserules. The first (which I like) is that the cleric's spontaneous healing spells continue up beyond the Cure Critical Wounds spell. In essence, that spell scales up in d8's per spell level, which gives a bit more versatility to the high level healer casting. I like this, and it makes sense to me.
Note that higher level spontaneous healing spells already exist for clerics in the RAW. Heal doesn't qualify without a house rule, but the Mass versions of each Cure spell do, so a high level cleric can already spontaneously cast Mass Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical Wounds with his level 5 and higher spell slots. This might not seem like much at first glance, but note that the mass versions of these spells are ranged and have a much higher cap on the caster level bonus than the single target Cures in addition to affecting the entire party (plus nearby hostile undead) all at once. Also, I'm pretty sure clerics can spontaneously convert spells to metamagiced Cures if they use a sufficiently high level slot.

Jasdoif
2007-05-01, 08:55 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure clerics can spontaneously convert spells to metamagiced Cures if they use a sufficiently high level slot.Indeed they can.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats

A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.