Witch Hex Selection help

[Susano-wo]

So, I've got a Gravewalker witch (archetype that grants improved undead generation and control ability), and a DM who is usually cool about changing builds if they are lacking.

I also took among my hexes (and I've used a couple of extra hex feats as well) cackle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-cackle-su) and misfortune (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-misfortune-su), and I am wondering if I should ditch one or both.

For offensive hexes, I have Slumber, Misfortune, and, now that she's 10th, Agony (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/major-hexes/hex-major-agony-su). Cackle technically be used with agony, but it seems like a waste to extend an already 10rnd duration by one per move action I want to give up. :smallfrown: Misfortune's duration, however, is only 2 rounds, so it would be useful to keep it up for longer, so it might last the combat...but that's only if the enemy lasts more than 2 rounds. And its a feat/Hex slot.

As for the other cackleable hexes: its utility with charm seems limited in social situations if I have to cackle madly to maintain charm. And it lasts for 8 rounds at present, so in combat the cackle is again not needed. Fortune seems thematically less appropriate, since she focuses on destruction, and evil eye (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-evil-eye-su), well, actually, its a pretty nasty debuff at this point, though cackle is only useful if they save, since that reduces duration to 1 round.

So I'm thinking of ditching cackle, and maybe misfortune as well. Our fights don't usually last more than a few rounds, and I have several hexes I can use in that time, as well as spells, and with the Accursed Hex (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/accursed-hex) feat I can recast any of these hexes the next round if they make their DC 23 save.

Cackles seems like a fun hex in concept, but I don't know if its going to be worth it in practice. Any advice would be appreciated (Oh and due to... circumstances:smalltongue:...I haven't gotten to use any of these significantly in combat, so I don't have a lot of field data, so to speak)

[Sagetim]

Can't you pick up 'go die in some ice' as a hex by level 10? I'll have to look over hexes, but if nothing else, I know there's a hex that lets you breathe under water and you can even maintain it while resting. Healing and Major Healing are always nice. Especially if you want to try and convince a small town that you're totally not evil by going around and healing all their injured.

Hoarfrost and Ice Tomb are both once per day per target, but very capable of save or die. And if you want to capture someone for later, you can evil eye them and try to Ice Tomb them for long term storage. This includes stuffing them in a bag of holding, because while frozen they don't need to eat or breathe. Hoarfrost is admittedly more of a villanous gloating power, since it deals 1 con damage, then 1 per Minute until the target dies (initial fort save negates).

Witch's Bounty is funny, but I take it you don't care about getting twice your level in goodberries each day and using that to earn brownie points among the homeless and destitute. You know, for leverage against accusations of necromancy.

If you want wide ranging power, Weather Control will get you that. Being able to ruin people's crops or end a drought by dancing around (nudity optional) for an hour is a very potent, if noncombat, hex.

Water Lung is what I was trying to think of earlier, Flight could also be good though. Even though Flight only gives 1 minute per level (in one minute increments) per day, it should be more than enough flight for your combat needs each day (given that combat doesn't last that long for your group).

[ylvathrall]

Hoarfrost's frequency is so low that it isn't useful 90% of the time, but I will second Ice Tomb as being incredibly powerful, and you really ought to take it as soon as you can. For lower level hexes I find Flight, Water Lung, and Feral Speech to be useful utility abilities on a regular basis. Healing is also good, although not a great fit thematically, probably. The Spell Hex and Spirit Talker feats also open up some very good options.

I know Cackle is highly regarded by a lot of people, but I agree with you that it isn't all that awesome. Cackling Hag's Blouse is fairly cheap at level 10 if you want it, so swapping this hex out is not a terrible idea. Misfortune is a nice debuff for boss fights, especially if combined with evil eye. If nothing else, you can use it to set the target up for your Slumber hex.

[Geddy2112]

I am also playing a gravewalker at the moment, so I know your hex starved nature, but you are playing a gravewalker for a reason, and being able to spam a command undead hex at increasing range is gold. My DM ruled that my spell poppet can touch within my aura as a full round including the spell casting, which some disagree with but either way, I think the class is worth it.

You have plenty of nasty save or die hexes available now at higher level, plus your spells. I don't think you need to focus too heavily on long term debuff. Evil eye and misfortune are best against solo big bad's which normally will shrug misfortune(but not evil eye) even though misfortune is good(and better with accursed hex). Your best save or **** you is still slumber, which should be your first throw against a big baddie(and second if you have accursed hex) that it will affect(and you should have knowledge to know if that will work).

I never, ever, ever take a witch without flight hex. Flight is so much better than just casting fly. A +4 to swim checks, feather fall at will, levitate 1/day and flight minutes=level. At this level, you should always be in the air with fly(when it matters) with levitate as a backup. It also cannot be dispelled, and you have feather fall just in case you hit an antimagic field in the air. A swim bonus is gravy for a class that dumps strength-its basically your required level 5(extra hex)/6 hex.

I also second ice tomb, although agony is decent. Hoarfrost works too slowly to matter in combat, where a hard save or die spell/hex would do.


Cackling Hag's Blouse is fairly cheap at level 10 if you want it, so swapping this hex out is not a terrible idea.

6k for a great hex is amazing, and you should buy this. Particularly if your going for a build that can use cackle. It is probably good enough and cackle is not needed enough where you should always just buy/craft this instead of taking cackle.

[Susano-wo]

Thanks for all the advice so far. I'm glad I'm not the only person looking at cackle with dubious eyes. I do have flight, btw, because yeah, its that good :smallamused: ( I just left it off because it wasn't combat related and it wasn't in my considerations for removal :smallwink:)

I was thinking agony, I think because A: I thought it had a higher range than ice tomb, though I see that they are both 60ft., and B: the idea of wracking someone with such pain that they can't act if they piss me off is appealing, but so is imprisoning my enemies in a tomb of ice. And hey, her patron is a vampire/demon thing, and the witch is being brought back from being a corpse, so ice themed death seems pretty appropriate. :smallbiggrin:

As far as lower hexes go, yeah, healing is not really her style, though I might grab evil eye instead of misfortune and see if I want to grab another 2 feats instead of the two extra hexes, or else take utility hexes like tongues/feral tongue/charm.
This gives me a save debuff for at least a round, followed up with Save or Die, as well as more utility. Seems like a good spread, and that's before my minions come into play :smallcool:

O and I can definitely handle buying cackle as a magic item the next time we find someone who can set us up with them (no magic marts, though we find people from time to time who can arrange for us to get items, and we do select specific items that way), so that is yet another reason to not bother wasting a hex slot( well, it does turn it to a swift action, which makes it much better, but still, I'm not going to bother)

RE: spell poppet, hmm, I can see that the strictest reading of the poppet's ability is that you cast the spell, then deliver the spell as a full round action, but it looks like just bad wording to me. Were I the DM, I would allow a full round total.

[ylvathrall]

I would recommend Ice Tomb over Agony, especially since it sounds like you have a reasonable GM who won't give you too many problems with them melting the ice. Ice Tomb is the only hex I know of that does damage (3d8 cold isn't much at level 10, but now you can kill as many annoying peasants as you want :smallbiggrin: ), and being unable to take any actions is considerably worse than nauseated. Ice Tomb is for most purposes a save-or-die effect, whereas Agony is merely save-or-suck. And Agony allows multiple saves instead of just one, which...really just makes it a less appealing option to me. Maybe pick it up later if you feel the need, but it wouldn't be my highest priority of major hexes.

I would also recommend some utility hexes, although it depends upon your party. Feral Speech was priceless for my most recent witch, because there was no druid or comparable character in the party and we ran into animals on a regular basis. Similarly, if no one has Linguistics or appropriate magic, the Tongues hex becomes considerably more powerful. Water Lung is nice if you find yourself in the water very often, or if characters are routinely in danger of drowning, but it's very campaign-specific.

Finally, did you take a look at the feats I mentioned? Spell Hex is of dubious value and you can't take it until level 11 anyway, but I highly recommend Spirit Talker for almost any witch build. Being able to pick up a different hex every day is incredibly useful, and some of the shaman spirits get very nice hexes to choose from. If you can trade out feats, I would definitely recommend taking this over Extra Hex.

[Susano-wo]

somehow I missed your line about feats. OK looked at Spirit Talker. Looks like a new class feature for witch characters that replaces their 7th level feat.:smallwink: Yep, taking that one in a heartbeart. And spirit talker makes so much thematic sense :smallbiggrin:

As for spell hex, I'd have to look at my first levels again, but yeah, seems like it has pretty limited utility :smallannoyed: