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View Full Version : "Overpowered" spells-a problem?.



Belial_the_Leveler
2007-04-30, 08:53 AM
All right, people see Time Stop as overpowered-as well as many other high-level spells. Let's compare them first with the effectiveness of other spells in lower level encounters:


Near-Epic:
In the 17-20 level range, we have Timestop and its combos, mainly with Celerity or Greater Celerity, Forcecages, and Dimensional Locks as the supposedly overpowered options. All, right, a wizard uses celerity+timestop+forcecage+ dim. lock to react to an enemy and trap them. The enemy is still alive and can react (disintegrate and get out of the trap), his SR may overcome the Dim. Lock, the forcecage doesn't fit any enemy larger than huge. And the enemy is still unharmed by the "attack" while the wizard just spent several spell slots.

High level:
In the 13-16 level range, we have Mass Charm Monster, Mass Suggestion, Fingeor of Death and PAO as the more used single-target offencive spells. Most enemies at that CR have saves at the +12 to +16 region and less SR than higher CR ones comparatively speaking. The save DCs of those spells are at the 23-26 region, not counting spell focus feats. So, any spell at that level has a 60% chance to KO an enemy of equal CR.

Mid level:
In the 8-12 level range, we have Suggestion, Charm Monster, Dominate, Disintegrate and Flesh to Stone. Very few enemies have SR at this level. Most enemies at this CR have saves at the +5 to +12 region. Save DCs are at the 19-22 region. So, any spell at that level has 60% chance to KO an enemy of equal CR with a higher chance if you aim at an enemy's low save.

Low level:
In the 5-7 region we have mainly area spells such as fireball and lightning and suggestion, scorching ray as KO spells. The vast majority of enemies don't have SR here and saves are usually at the +7 and less region. DCs are at the 16-19 region. KOs are not very frequent but area attacks such as fireball do decent damage-most enemies at that CR have less than 50 HP so a single fireball can eat away 50% of their HP.

Beginner level:
In the 1-4 region, sleep, charm person and web rule. Saves usually are at less than +3 while DCs can be as high as +15 without spell focus feats. Sleep usually has a 75% chance to get non-immune enemies at that level and so does charm person. Damage spells are still not very effective here.


As you can see, at ANY level lower than 15 a single spell of the highest level available has 50% chance to KO an enemy of that CR. So, effectively, a spellcaster should be able to end a matching CR encounter in 2 rounds or 2 spellcasters in 1 round. As we go up in levels, individual spells become less effective due to immunities, spell resistance and item availability for creatures. On the other hand, spellcasters gain more powerful spell combos and the possibility of expending more spells in a single round.

The "brokenness" of spell combos should not be countered by nerfing or setting up PCs to be killed. Against an encounter of their CR, PCs should not lose-they should win 5 times a day then go to rest. Spellcasters should be able to destroy a single threat of that CR in 2-3 rounds but should not be able to destroy more than 2-3 such threats in a day. The DM's job should be to retain that pattern of 2-3 rounds for a kill/2-3 kills per day for all levels. I have not seen a combo so far that makes the wizard autowin in all encounters in a day.

ZeroNumerous
2007-04-30, 09:07 AM
The problem isn't that PCs are winning. It's that Cleric makes everyone else useless.

Catch
2007-04-30, 09:16 AM
The problem isn't that PCs are winning. It's that Cleric makes everyone else useless.

Wizards too.

Casters win D&D. That's just the way it works. Melee attacking just doesn't cut it at high levels because it's neither versatile nor efficient. The ToB classes bring martial characters up to acceptable levels, so that's a start, but casters are still the winners.

Arguing over which spells are overpowdered doesn't eliminate the raw advantage that spellcasting provides. Even if you take away a Wizard's Time Stop, Forcecage, etc, there's still a multitude of save or die, save or suck, and "You Lose" spells.

He's the goddamn Batman, batarangs or no.

ZeroNumerous
2007-04-30, 09:19 AM
I, personally, blame clerics more than anyone else. Domain choices can literally make a Cleric a one-person party.

Armads
2007-04-30, 09:21 AM
In the 17-20 level range, we have Timestop and its combos, mainly with Celerity or Greater Celerity, Forcecages, and Dimensional Locks as the supposedly overpowered options. All, right, a wizard uses celerity+timestop+forcecage+ dim. lock to react to an enemy and trap them. The enemy is still alive and can react (disintegrate and get out of the trap), his SR may overcome the Dim. Lock, the forcecage doesn't fit any enemy larger than huge. And the enemy is still unharmed by the "attack" while the wizard just spent several spell slots.

His SR won't matter. Assay spell resistance. Or, the wizard can gate in a few dragons. Or, the wizard can use Shivering Touch (combined with reach spell and other metamagic silliness).

Indon
2007-04-30, 10:23 AM
Honestly, I see little problem with any one of these 'overpowered spells' in and of themselves. It's when they're used in conjunction with a host of other similar spells (Celerity+Timestop+etc...), or used with metamagic ("Yes, I know Shivering Touch. Or as I like to call it, 18 dex-damage laser!") that they pose a potential problem.

A player who doesn't want to be Batman as a mage can pretty easily not take all the power-spells in the book, and take limited metamagic (or, heaven forfend, not even buy a metamagic rod).

Batman
2007-04-30, 10:47 AM
Shivering Touch is PLENTY bad on its own. 3d6 dex damage in an 3rd level slot is just as bad as 18 in a sixth level slot. Time Stop lets you gets all your buffs up, or set up a combo o'doom (Dimension Lock + Forcecage, etc). Why do people find it hard to believe that some spells are problematic?

Indon
2007-04-30, 11:15 AM
3d6 dex damage in an 3rd level slot is just as bad as 18 in a sixth level slot.

3d6 Dex damage, one target, touch range. The biggest thing is the touch range (Sure, you have a _chance_ of debilitating something big with it, but you have to stand next to it to do so!)... unless you use metamagic.

Batman
2007-04-30, 11:20 AM
Arcane Reach is an archmage ability not a metamagic and better than Reach Spell. Average damage for 3d6 is 10.5, which more than enough for dragons. Sure, it's a touch attack, but compare it with Touch of Idiocy or something. Are you seriously telling me that the spell is balanced because it involves a touch attack? Even though it can no-save wipe out some of the toughest things around? Maximizing the spell gets you more damage for a higher level slot. THat doesn't mean that there's something wrong with Maximize--it's the spell itself that's bad.

JaronK
2007-04-30, 11:34 AM
3d6 Dex damage, one target, touch range. The biggest thing is the touch range (Sure, you have a _chance_ of debilitating something big with it, but you have to stand next to it to do so!)... unless you use metamagic.

Or Spectral Hand, a second level spell that lets you deliver it at range. Yehaw. Heck, you can just prepare Shivering Touches in all your third level slots as a Wizard and go dragon hunting at level 5. Who needs maximize? It might take you two rounds to kill the damn thing, surprise round and first round.

Yes, dragons are usually smart enough to avoid a surprise round, but still, two round TKO at level 5 against a Great Wyrm shouldn't even be possible, let alone that easy.

JaronK

Indon
2007-04-30, 11:43 AM
All right, so there are prestige classes with abilities which are essentially Metamagic but better, and other spells which do the same thing, good to know.

Imagine you're using the spell on a dragon, without any metamagic abilities, class abilities or spells which work like metamagic abilities, or the Celerity/Timestop/Yadda Yadda laundry list of other spells considered overpowered; you have a chance of knocking out that dragon... if you don't, it full attacks you (and average damage for a dragon's full attack is more than enough for a wizard). Even getting _to_ the dragon may provoke an attack of opportunity which isn't going to be pleasant.

Now, don't get me wrong; I think some spells are just flat out extremely powerful (Shapechange comes to mind, if your DM has enough Monster Manuals; this is a case of synergy with a list of creatures rather than a list of feats or other spells). Other spells have their power balanced out with a cost or risk; in the case of Shivering Touch, it's a risk, which is bypassable through use of metamagic (or class abilities which do the same).

And unless Touch of Idiocy deals less than 2 int damage (or an int penalty), it could debilitate any animal pretty easy.

The point is, magic's power comes from synergy. Synergy with other magic, synergy with feats or caster PrC abilities, synergy with thick monster manuals. There is indeed a whole lot of synergy there, but without it, it's definitely not overpowered by my book.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-04-30, 11:53 AM
I banned all the Cleric "self-only" buffs... that has been more than enough for my current party

The only arcane caster in my group plays a blaster-caster sorcerer, which has never been a problem so far... He actually has read the "how to be Batman" thing and he decided to not fall into that trap.

So my group is very balanced and happy... Am I in the minority?

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-04-30, 03:48 PM
The moment the PCs have access to non-core offencive capabilities and combos is the moment that NPCs and monsters also do. And if your PC uses that Shivering Touch all the time against dragons, then how about Spell Immunity? Or Greater Spell Immunity? Or Contingency: teleport? Or, since the PC goes outside Core, Fortunate Fate. The dragon gets a contingent Heal that not only nullifies that Shivering Touch but also heals him of 150 damage. How about Deflect Ray? Or Sheltered Vitality?


Also, there are ways to up the effectiveness of monsters without increasing their CR. For a Great Wurm dragon that knows spellcasters are the greatest danger for him, give him Improved Spell Resistance. 7 times. You just increased his SR by 14. Also, have him cast nondetection. Now divinations have to make that CL check against him-and Assay Resistance is a divination.

Generally, "broken" spells appear in non-core sources. But the counters to such "broken" spells also appear in said noncore sources.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 03:59 PM
Generally, "broken" spells appear in non-core sources. But the counters to such "broken" spells also appear in said noncore sources.

HAHA. The most broken spell in D&D core is Gate. The PHB has a higher saturation of broken spells than pretty much any other 3.5 book.

brian c
2007-04-30, 06:17 PM
I think that the brokenness of Time Stop would be made slightly more palatable if you weren't allowed to use Metamagic Rods on 9th level spells, or use a metamagic rod on a spell that you wouldn't be able to replicate with a feat. There's no Maxmized Time Stop without the rod; and normal Time Stop isn't incredibly broken, just very strong.

Shivering Touch is broken though. Should be 1d6 or maybe 2d6 with a fort save down to 1d6.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-30, 07:08 PM
Near-Epic:
In the 17-20 level range, we have Timestop and its combos, mainly with Celerity or Greater Celerity, Forcecages, and Dimensional Locks as the supposedly overpowered options. All, right, a wizard uses celerity+timestop+forcecage+ dim. lock to react to an enemy and trap them. The enemy is still alive and can react (disintegrate and get out of the trap), his SR may overcome the Dim. Lock, the forcecage doesn't fit any enemy larger than huge. And the enemy is still unharmed by the "attack" while the wizard just spent several spell slots.You're forgetting the target-appropriet long-running continuing hurt spell: Cloudkill, Acid Fog, Incindiary Cloud, or the like, and the Greater Rod of Maximize Spell (used on the Time Stop) that makes it all happen.

You're also forgetting the Foresight - the Wizard isn't ever flat-footed, and so can cast Celerity whenever, to do basically anything.

In order to get out, any non-caster (and most casters) are forced to expend an action (Helm of Teleportation? Standard action. Dimension Door? Ditto, and has a clause that you can't act after doing so. Shield of Absorbtion? Standard action. Casters can make that a Quickened Teleport - if they first nullify the Dimension Lock; or a Rod-quickened Disintigrate, or Time Stop/Disjunction combo). The caster that does this expends a lot of spell slots on it... but it's a no-save (or effectively no-save) method of killing most opponents, and giving them no chance to really counter; most of those that can counter lose their turn from it (and do note, that the caster hasn't lost his - Daze wore off in the first round of Time Stop), and the very small handful that don't lose out on their turn... are either Wizards or Pseudo-Wizards themselves.

But yes, Gate and Shapechange are some of the most busted spells out there, and the lesser versions of them are very strong (Gate > Greater Planar Binding (mostly) > Planar Binding > Lesser Planar Binding; Shapechange > Polymorph Any Object > Polymorph > Alter Self) (Wish? Why bother, when spend 5,000 xp when I can Gate in a Solar for 1,000 xp and have it give me a Wish, or better, Gate in an Efreeti and have it give me three for the same cost? For that matter, why bother spending XP at all on it when I can Planar Bind an Efreeti for free?).

Interestingly, the most broken Core spells fall into a small handful of categories: Command or become an arbitrary creature (Polymorph and Calling spells - Gate, Shapechange, the Planar Binding line, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Alter Self) as they give you the perfect ability for the job, pretty much regardless of what that job is.
Extra Actions (Time Stop) as actions in combat are about the most valuable commodity there is.
Rest whenever (to a lesser extent): Rope Trick (extended from 5th to 9th so it lasts 10 hours or more), Magnificient Mansion, and to a lesser extent Dimension Door, Teleport, and Greater Teleport.

That's Core. Outside Core, you get the added category of "lose" spells. Not save-or-lose, just lose (although Irresistable Dance is close, it's got hefty limits which mostly put it out of this category - mind affecting and of the same level where you get Mind Blank, and it's touch range and spell level mostly prevent getting around its limits). Shivering Touch, when run through something to get around it's limitations - like Reach Spell, Arcane Reach, or Spectral Hand... although a Spectral Hand theoretically provokes when it is used to target a critter with reach, and it only has 1d4 HP, most DM's don't think of that - fits this category. Illusory Pit fits this as well (even on a successful save, you can't act when your turn comes up).

Celerity is not only an extra action spell (although it costs you one at a later point) but it becomes an "I go first" spell when combined with Foresight - which really breaks it - but the extra action is a killer in and of itself.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-30, 07:13 PM
Forcecage is a big lockdown for any strictly melee critter. Fine. It also costs you $1,500 in materials each time you cast it. If you are using this in every combat, you're not going to be making up your costs.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 07:19 PM
I think that the brokenness of Time Stop would be made slightly more palatable if you weren't allowed to use Metamagic Rods on 9th level spells, or use a metamagic rod on a spell that you wouldn't be able to replicate with a feat. There's no Maxmized Time Stop without the rod; and normal Time Stop isn't incredibly broken, just very strong.

Sudden Maximize can max a Timestop. What WoTC should have done is made the spell give yo ua flat 3 rounds. 99% of the time the only reason you max a timestop is that you need to know exactly when it will end.

The Forcecage combo only requires 2 rounds under TS, which you are already guaranteed. The only reason to maximize it is so that you can hit a second target if needed, summon a bodyguard to be safe, or teleport away.

Round 1: Dimensional Lock
Round 2: Quickened Cloudkill + Forcecage

And if TS is a flat 3 rounds then you stop the DBF trick as you can only drop 3 in 1 TS, bad but nothing spectacular.


Shivering Touch is broken though. Should be 1d6 or maybe 2d6 with a fort save down to 1d6.

I would make it 1d8, no save. If you maximize and empower it you can take out a dragon again but that requires a much higher level slot and a feat (you can't stack metamagic rods on 1 spell). Max it for 8 points of damage and it is still very painful but it isn't a win button anymore. Possibly pump it up a level as well.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 07:37 PM
You're forgetting the target-appropriet long-running continuing hurt spell: Cloudkill, Acid Fog, Incindiary Cloud, or the like, and the Greater Rod of Maximize Spell (used on the Time Stop) that makes it all happen.

You're also forgetting the Foresight - the Wizard isn't ever flat-footed, and so can cast Celerity whenever, to do basically anything.

In order to get out, any non-caster (and most casters) are forced to expend an action (Helm of Teleportation? Standard action. Dimension Door? Ditto, and has a clause that you can't act after doing so. Shield of Absorbtion? Standard action. Casters can make that a Quickened Teleport - if they first nullify the Dimension Lock; or a Rod-quickened Disintigrate, or Time Stop/Disjunction combo). The caster that does this expends a lot of spell slots on it... but it's a no-save (or effectively no-save) method of killing most opponents, and giving them no chance to really counter; most of those that can counter lose their turn from it (and do note, that the caster hasn't lost his - Daze wore off in the first round of Time Stop), and the very small handful that don't lose out on their turn... are either Wizards or Pseudo-Wizards themselves.
If the wizard does the Ultimate Forcecage combo and uses the quickened Disjunction before the Timestop then the odds of any of teh targets potential escape items making it are very slim. Assuming that Disjunction isn't in play then all you really need is a Rod of Cancellation.


But yes, Gate and Shapechange are some of the most busted spells out there, and the lesser versions of them are very strong (Gate > Greater Planar Binding (mostly) > Planar Binding > Lesser Planar Binding; Shapechange > Polymorph Any Object > Polymorph > Alter Self) (Wish? Why bother, when spend 5,000 xp when I can Gate in a Solar for 1,000 xp and have it give me a Wish, or better, Gate in an Efreeti and have it give me three for the same cost? For that matter, why bother spending XP at all on it when I can Planar Bind an Efreeti for free?).

Interestingly, the most broken Core spells fall into a small handful of categories: Command or become an arbitrary creature (Polymorph and Calling spells - Gate, Shapechange, the Planar Binding line, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Alter Self) as they give you the perfect ability for the job, pretty much regardless of what that job is.
Extra Actions (Time Stop) as actions in combat are about the most valuable commodity there is.

Preety much.


Rest whenever (to a lesser extent): Rope Trick (extended from 5th to 9th so it lasts 10 hours or more), Magnificient Mansion, and to a lesser extent Dimension Door, Teleport, and Greater Teleport.
This I disagree with. I'm sorry but when I here people complain about these spells I can't help but think of a DM who just isn't trying.

Whoop De Do. You can't hit the party with random encounters or ambush them while they sleep. You can hit them when they are awake. To compensate for the full rest after each fight just go have fun and break out the high CR monsters. Since you only have 1 encounter per day then it just has to be an encounter that is 4 above the appropriate CR. They get the same amount of XP and you get to have your real combat and the party gets to use the spells.

After a bit they should realize what is going on. Or just flat out tell them that since they aren't having 4 encounters per day you have to throw harder encounters to compensate. After the first near TPK when the monster rolls well they will learn that the odds of survival are much better if you fight 3 or for CR appropriate encounters per day.

Teleport can be stopped by just sending them to places that they have never visited before and that can't be scryed on for any number of reasons. Perhaps they have to recover the artifact that blocks scrying in a 25 mile radius and that is the size of an egg. Searching an area that big on foot woudl certainly give you enough DM opportunities.


That's Core. Outside Core, you get the added category of "lose" spells. Not save-or-lose, just lose (although Irresistable Dance is close, it's got hefty limits which mostly put it out of this category - mind affecting and of the same level where you get Mind Blank, and it's touch range and spell level mostly prevent getting around its limits). Shivering Touch, when run through something to get around it's limitations - like Reach Spell, Arcane Reach, or Spectral Hand... although a Spectral Hand theoretically provokes when it is used to target a critter with reach, and it only has 1d4 HP, most DM's don't think of that - fits this category. Illusory Pit fits this as well (even on a successful save, you can't act when your turn comes up).
Illusory Pit was errated in Spell Compendium so it isnt' really broken any more. Strong but not broken.


Celerity is not only an extra action spell (although it costs you one at a later point) but it becomes an "I go first" spell when combined with Foresight - which really breaks it - but the extra action is a killer in and of itself.
The extra action part doesn't really matter. Its the I go first part that is strong. And then its only really good when you are going to combine it with TS.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-30, 08:36 PM
If the wizard does the Ultimate Forcecage combo and uses the quickened Disjunction before the Timestop then the odds of any of teh targets potential escape items making it are very slim. Assuming that Disjunction isn't in play then all you really need is a Rod of Cancellation.
Yeah, but then he's got a second highly powerful Rod he has to use... and as drawing a Rod is *normally* going to be a Move action, he either has to keep at least one rod in hand at all times (can do both - Disjunction and Time Stop are both Verbal only spells) so he can draw the next when needed (which can be awkward - especially in social situations), but for the point of demonstrating brokenness, I tend to assume that all opponents make every save. That cloudkill you're stuck in? Still does 1d4/2 Con damage unless you're immune (or have Mettle). The Incindiary cloud still does 4d6/2 damage per round if you make your reflex save (unless you've got a Ring of Evasion). There is no save (or SR) for Acid Fog. There's a save for the magic items during a Disjunction. And it destroyes the treasure you're kinda after.

Oh, and a Rod of Cancellation? It's a *melee* attack, with a fixed save DC. Hope that Large critter doesn't have Combat Reflexes and Improved Sunder... and you don't necessarily get to see the build beforehand (especially as you can't actually do anything to an attended object - which are the ones you care about - during a Time Stop).



Preety much.

Yeah.


This I disagree with. I'm sorry but when I here people complain about these spells I can't help but think of a DM who just isn't trying.

Whoop De Do. You can't hit the party with random encounters or ambush them while they sleep. You can hit them when they are awake. To compensate for the full rest after each fight just go have fun and break out the high CR monsters. Since you only have 1 encounter per day then it just has to be an encounter that is 4 above the appropriate CR. They get the same amount of XP and you get to have your real combat and the party gets to use the spells.

After a bit they should realize what is going on. Or just flat out tell them that since they aren't having 4 encounters per day you have to throw harder encounters to compensate. After the first near TPK when the monster rolls well they will learn that the odds of survival are much better if you fight 3 or for CR appropriate encounters per day.

Part of the reason I put "(to a lesser extent)" in there. To counter reasonably, it forces the DM to either use opponents in a particular fasion that can lead to a TPK fairly easily, be fine with the players simply walking over most things, or routinely putting tight time limits in place.


Teleport can be stopped by just sending them to places that they have never visited before and that can't be scryed on for any number of reasons. Perhaps they have to recover the artifact that blocks scrying in a 25 mile radius and that is the size of an egg. Searching an area that big on foot woudl certainly give you enough DM opportunities.You misunderstand - I'm putting it in the "safe rest" category. You're adventuring in the dungeoun, and get tired / low on spells / low on HP / Low on other recources. You carefully study the spot you're in, and Teleport back to the inn/town/shop (dispelling the local segment of Forbiddance if needed). When you're done resting / restocking / Crafting your Bane arrows for the thing that you had to run from, you Teleport back to where you left off.

The BBEG's room is of course scry-limited (I'm particularly fond of that nifty *core* spell that misleads scrying....), teleport blocked, or both. But you can't routinely do this kind of thing for dungeons at large. Sure, they *can* be used as adventure shortcuts at times... but not usually, due to the nature of the spells requiring you have at least some knoweledge of where you're going.




Illusory Pit was errated in Spell Compendium so it isnt' really broken any more. Strong but not broken.

Actually Errated, or reprinted as a different version?

If it is still denying a round of actions even on a successful save, it's got severe problems - because the Sorcerer can Spam it, not worring about the opponent doing anything back while the Fighter and Rogue go to town on an opponent that is incapable of fighting back.



The extra action part doesn't really matter. Its the I go first part that is strong. And then its only really good when you are going to combine it with TS.
An immediate action uses up your swift for the next round, not this one. Most opponents can be taken down by two of your highest level spells and a single quickened spell. At 7th level, three Fireballs in rapid succession (Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken spell, standard action Fireball, then end turn and Immediately cast Celerity to get off another Fireball) will take down many CR 7 opponents that aren't effectively immune - in an area, so this can be several such CR 7 opponents - and you can get all three out on your first turn. And Fireball is one of the weaker spells to use for it. Celerity ups the otherwise-Core Min/Maxing Wizard's effective spell output by 50% (the otherwise Core Sorcerer's by 100%) in the first round. If you have a critter that fails a save against your disabling spell 50% of the time, it saves against two 25% of the time, and three 12.5% of the time... and you get to know in advance how much of your recources get burned, as you know whether or not a targetted spell you cast succeeds. That's a big power boost, for a strong spell for 4th. It becomes really good when combined with Time Stop to mostly negate its drawback, and crazy good when combined with Foresight so that it's a highly souped-up version of Contingency. And if you don't have Foresight yet, Contingency can work on 4th level spells like Celerity, starting at caster level 12.

brian c
2007-04-30, 10:50 PM
Actually Errated, or reprinted as a different version?

What difference does it make? If a feat/spell/class/item/anything else is reprinted different from the original, the most recent version supercedes it; if Illusory Pit was printed somewhere else (I don't know where offhand) and then reprinted with different rules in the Spell Compendium, then that's the correct version by RAW.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-05-01, 04:21 AM
Just to drop in a line-people that think Time Stop combinations (or any other spell combinations) are broken, are welcome to prove it in a challenge thread I am opening up in the "finding players" forum. Let's see if anyone can unbalance a party when a DM that is experienced in handling high-level games is making the encounters.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-01, 06:16 AM
What difference does it make?

Suppose, for a minute, that DM and players have limited budgets. The DM has all three core books, the players have the PHB.

Fred (a player) scrounges up the $75 to buy this nifty WotC book that has an overnifty spell. It's the DM's policy to let any WotC book into play, provided the DM is given a few weeks to go over it and familiarize himself with it, and the DM/other players are permitted to borrow it at basically any time (to add the material to NPCs/monsters/other PC's).

Actual Errata is free off the WotC website. If it has been errated, you can, quite easily, print it off (most public libraries will let you print things at something like 10 cents a page, black and white, provided you aren't violating copyright - and printing official errata for a book you have is in no way a violation of copyright).

If it's in another $75 dollar book, but not in actual errata, it's unlikely this group is going to encounter the actual fix as anything other than hearsay.


If a feat/spell/class/item/anything else is reprinted different from the original, the most recent version supercedes it; if Illusory Pit was printed somewhere else (I don't know where offhand) and then reprinted with different rules in the Spell Compendium, then that's the correct version by RAW.Got a source on that? I remember a little something like that... which was referring to using 3.0 material in a 3.5 game, but nothing referring to October 12th 2005 3.5 material vs. July 16th, 2006 material.