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Threeshades
2007-04-30, 09:10 AM
I'm only a short time away from getting to make a new character. And its most certainly going to be a fighter (to go on with my line Rogue-fighter-rogue-fighter) or a melee oriented whatever character.

And before i start building i wanted to make sure i have a little range of options. I have already asked for an allround melee fighter and a weapon specialized one.
But i have two more options i wanted to go through:

First is Stabby Mc Stabstab:
Is there a way to make an effective Belkaresque dagger/tiny weapon fighter?
I got this idea already a long time ago when reading Johnny The Homicidal Maniac. I was thinking about a character utilizing mainly small weapons like daggers or maybe Kukris in combat. Weapon Finesse would surely make sense there (high dexterity also adds to the armor class as we all know). Im just not sure if the damage output of all those small weapons really can put up with that of the classical two-handed wielder. So can somebody tell me if there is a way to make that kind of fighter effective. And how to?

The second idea i had is Slashy the Swift:
The idea here is a fighter with hight dexterity AND strength leaving constituiton out. I thought about him using one handed weapons like longswords/scimitars or maybe even bastard Swords. Maybe even going for two-handed weapons. About the attacking i should just say its like that of a normal fighter, whats really different is that i concentrate on Dexterity instead of constitution, to keep the AC high instead of the HP. Is it possible, or does it even make sense to make a mobile fighter like this? (maybe with Wood or Wild elves, or something with similar Abilities)

Catch
2007-04-30, 09:20 AM
To the first, Invisible Blade. Complete Warrior, as I recall. High AC, dagger sneak attacks, and free feints. Instead of sneaking around and backstabbing, you go toe-to-toe with your enemy and mince up his spleen anyway.

To the second, if you're looking for a mobile fighter, I'd suggest the Dervish, also from Complete Warrior. High AC, mobility while full attacking, and if you snag a few Scout levels, you get skirmish damage as well. It works with TWF or two-handed, whatever your preference.

Seffbasilisk
2007-04-30, 09:21 AM
For the first one, you should look at Invisible Blade for a prestige class. Gives bonus sneak attack dice for daggers, lets you fient as a free action, add Int bonus to AC unarmored and weilding daggers...

Monk/Rogue Ascetic Rogue, Maybe dip into scout and take the feat that lets rogue and scout levels stack for sneak attack and skirmish dice. It's pretty MAD with Int, Wis, Dex needing boosting.

If you use fighter levels, try to sink the bonus feats into TWF.

ravenkith
2007-04-30, 09:38 AM
Look at the whispergnome and the gnomish quick razor (both from races of stone, if I recall correctly, and think about going ninja (complete adventurer, again IIRC).

Gnothing says fun like a gnomish gninja.

Or:

I may be tiny, but you're dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21679)

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 09:53 AM
That i didnt think about the CW. Thanks for the hint.

We're average level 7 right now so:
For Stabby, maybe a swashbuckler(5)/invisible blade(2) might make sense
feats would be the rquired three, and if i should happen to play a human two-weapon fighting.
For the abilities I'm thinking about
STR 12
CON 14
DEX 16
INT 16
WIS 11
CHA 11

would that be a good start?

Person_Man
2007-04-30, 09:55 AM
What books are available?

Re: Stabby: Unless you're using the Tome of Battle, the main source of melee damage is Power Attack and Leap Attack. Thus, almost any light weapon is going to suck with a melee build. The one exception I know of is Rogue 3/Swash 17 with the Daring Outlaw feat. But even that build is twice as effective with Power Attack and Leap Attack. You can also do a lot using a Master Thrower, but that's a thrown weapon build, not a melee build.

Re: Slashy: Optimal AC for low cost = Mithral full plate+Dex 16+Animated Shield+Lots of small bonus items that grant different types of AC bonuses (amulets, cloaks, boots, etc). Having high Dex means you need armor with a high Max Dex bonus. High Max Dex bonus means lower AC, or expensive magical enhancements. So there's no return on investment on Dex above 16 unless you have a ton of money, or need it for a ranged build.

Re: Invisible Blade: They nerfed it in the errata. You can only feint once per turn. Thus, there is no reason to take the PrC. Buy a Ring of Blinking, or have a friendly party member cast Greater Invisibility.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 10:10 AM
What books are available?

Re: Stabby: Unless you're using the Tome of Battle, the main source of melee damage is Power Attack and Leap Attack. Thus, almost any light weapon is going to suck with a melee build. The one exception I know of is Rogue 3/Swash 17 with the Daring Outlaw feat. But even that build is twice as effective with Power Attack and Leap Attack. You can also do a lot using a Master Thrower, but that's a thrown weapon build, not a melee build.

Re: Slashy: Optimal AC for low cost = Mithral full plate+Dex 16+Animated Shield+Lots of small bonus items that grant different types of AC bonuses (amulets, cloaks, boots, etc). Having high Dex means you need armor with a high Max Dex bonus. High Max Dex bonus means lower AC, or expensive magical enhancements. So there's no return on investment on Dex above 16 unless you have a ton of money, or need it for a ranged build.

Re: Invisible Blade: They nerfed it in the errata. You can only feint once per turn. Thus, there is no reason to take the PrC. Buy a Ring of Blinking, or have a friendly party member cast Greater Invisibility.

so slashy would only work as a dervish. Ive just read the class description. And it says something about an AC-Bonus. But all it says is that the AC-Bonus s only appiledif the dervish isnt caught flat footed (or otherwise cant use its DEX bonus) and doesnt wear armor other than light armor. But it doesnt say what kind of AC-bonus he gets, where it comes from or how much it gets.

But my idea for the dervish would then be

Fighter 5/Dervish 2
STR 14
CON 12
DEX 16
INT ?
CHA ? } Not sure about these, i assume one of them has something to do with the AC bonus
WIS ?

Feats: the required 4 + Two-Weapon Fighting + Weapon finesse

Catch
2007-04-30, 10:12 AM
so slashy would only work as a dervish. Ive just read the class description. And it says something about an AC-Bonus. But all it says is that the AC-Bonus s only appiledif the dervish isnt caught flat footed (or otherwise cant use its DEX bonus) and doesnt wear armor other than light armor. But it doesnt say what kind of AC-bonus he gets, where it comes from or how much it gets.

Dexterity, and Wisdom to AC, IIRC. That and a flat AC bonus from the class as well.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 10:16 AM
Dexterity, and Wisdom to AC, IIRC. That and a flat AC bonus from the class as well.

oh yes, now i see it there is a flat AC bonus in the table that i didnt see. But soesnt say anyhting about wisdom.

so its more like
Fighter 5/Dervish 2
STR 16
CON 12
DEX 16
INT 12
CHA 10
WIS 10

Feats: the required 4 + Two-Weapon Fighting + whatever fits

This one would work out only as a human. i think/hope since i had to blast a lot of skill points into non-class-skills

ravenkith
2007-04-30, 10:20 AM
You should really take a look at the link in my first post. It has some very good ideas for small, deadly characters.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 10:24 AM
You should really take a look at the link in my first post. It has some very good ideas for small, deadly characters.

It's a nice idea only has two flaws: We dont have rules for Whisper Gnomes at hand, neither Carmendine Monks or Blade Bravo and i dont like Gnomes.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-30, 10:27 AM
For the fast, flashy guy (and to expand your horizons whilst sticking to rogue-fighter-rogue-fighter) you might try a Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) build.

Catch
2007-04-30, 10:29 AM
You should really take a look at the link in my first post. It has some very good ideas for small, deadly characters.

Pretty much everything by TLN is made of pure win, but the killer-gnome relies heavily on the Shrink Person gimmick, and it takes a while before the class is really effective. Viable at high levels, but not totally together at low.

The Invisible Blade or Dervish is probably going to suit the Stab/Slash idea best.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 10:44 AM
Okay, im starting to get headaches from all this prestige-/multiclassing.

How about this slashy fighter build?:

Wood Elf Fighter 7

(32 point buy)
STR (16+2 racial) 18
DEX (16+2 racial) 18
CON (14-2 racial) 12
INT (12-2 racial) 10
WIS 8
CHA (10-2 racial) 8

Feats:
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)

Skills:
Jump 10 ranks
Climb 5 ranks
Swim 5 ranks

Equipment:
Mithral Chainmail
Bastard Sword (something magical, we'll see)
Shortsword (magical too)

It would be some kind of Samurai surrogate.
It's probably not the ultimate I-come-and-slash-you-all-dead but maybe its still an acceptale fighter? (the AC 19 sounds reasonable to me) and he still has full movement IIRC about the armor. Following feats would be two weapon defense or something around that.

The_Werebear
2007-04-30, 11:09 AM
That build works, but there are two things you have to accept

1) This build will not be the equal in damage output to someone using Leap Attack/Shock Trooper with a two handed weapon or a dual wielding Rogue. To get it as high as possible, add as many different types of extra elemental damage as possible to your weapons.

2) This build will be outshined by wizards, as it is not a ToB class or the above shock trooper build. I

f you are good with that, then yes, it is a solid fighter build that can do a decent tanky/slashy thing.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 11:12 AM
That build works, but there are two things you have to accept

1) This build will not be the equal in damage output to someone using Leap Attack/Shock Trooper with a two handed weapon or a dual wielding Rogue. To get it as high as possible, add as many different types of extra elemental damage as possible to your weapons.

2) This build will be outshined by wizards, as it is not a ToB class or the above shock trooper build. I

f you are good with that, then yes, it is a solid fighter build that can do a decent tanky/slashy thing.

im thinking about exchanging the race with catfolk, puttung catfolk leap in there and maybe making it 2 Bastard swords.

also the mithral chainmail might be replaced by an elven chain i would lose a level but im okay with it i guess.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-30, 11:18 AM
For a build like that maybe swash 3 rogue X (which is a rogue AND a fighter) and do catfolk pounce for good suprise sneak attacking.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-30, 11:52 AM
Okay, im starting to get headaches from all this prestige-/multiclassing.

How about this slashy fighter build?:

Wood Elf Fighter 7

(32 point buy)
STR (16+2 racial) 18
DEX (16+2 racial) 18
CON (14-2 racial) 12
INT (12-2 racial) 10
WIS 8
CHA (10-2 racial) 8

Feats:
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)

Skills:
Jump 10 ranks
Climb 5 ranks
Swim 5 ranks

Equipment:
Mithral Chainmail
Bastard Sword (something magical, we'll see)
Shortsword (magical too)

It would be some kind of Samurai surrogate.
It's probably not the ultimate I-come-and-slash-you-all-dead but maybe its still an acceptale fighter? (the AC 19 sounds reasonable to me) and he still has full movement IIRC about the armor. Following feats would be two weapon defense or something around that.

Might I suggest:
I know you probably want 2 swords, but a Greatsword/Armor spikes TWFing combo is pretty decent too damage wise (more so since you'll have an extra feat).

Your main hand will deal more damage, but offhand will deal less is only drawback.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 11:56 AM
i just figured a sole fighter Catfolk build that i reall, like:

Catfolk Fighter (6)

32-buy
{table]Stat | score | Points | Bonuses | Final Score | Mod.
STR | 18 | 16 | +1 Level bonus | 19 | +4
DEX | 14 | 6 | +4 racial bonus | 18 | +4
CON | 16 | 10 | - | 16 | +3
INT | 10 | 2 | - | 10 | 0
WIS | 6 | -2 | - | 6 | -2
CHA | 8 | 0 | +2 racial bonus | 10 | 0
[/table]
(our DM allows putting scores under 8)

Feats:
Catfolk Pounce
2 Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Two-Weapon Defense

Skills:
Jump 10
Climb/Swim 5

Equipment:
Elven Chain
2 Bastard Swords/Katanas (preferrably magic)

I put the Wisdom down because it's the only ability i can go without, without thinking my character is ugly/stupid/a weakling (low wisdom can mean a lack of common sense, so i can just say he's a psychopath, for thats better than having an ugly bastard)
i could alternatively do it with the charisma, it would make more sense but i dont really care, there are rogues and rangers for spotting.


I think this build should be pretty cool

PS: Im really starting to fall in love with this idea. How much AC is that again? (10+1 natural+1 Shield+5 Armor+4 Dex=21)

Celeste Seduiletal
2007-04-30, 12:05 PM
For a high-movement fighter who is looking to have a high AC and not worry about getting hit too much, is there a reason we have been ignoring tempest? They end up with three bonus AC in 5 levels, at the end they can attack with two weapons as part of a spring attack, and there is nothing preventing you from taking two weapon defense feats. As far as I know, there is nothing preventing you from using leap attack with that two hits during a spring attack rule. Anything about that you aren't looking for?

Seffbasilisk
2007-04-30, 12:11 PM
You need Oversized Two Weapon Fighting to use two bastard swords.

I'd say if you're not going TOB, to go with Rogue TWF for dual sneak attacking goodness.

Person_Man
2007-04-30, 12:20 PM
OK, backup for a second. Your builds are all over the place, and have a lot of useless feats. It's clear that you don't care about using a particular class for fluff reasons. So here's a simple question:

What do you want to do?

In case you don't know for sure, here's a list of things melee builds commonly do, ranked in the order I generally find they're actually needed:

1) Battlefield control, usually through Trip and/or special abilities
2) Respectable all day melee damage, usually through Power Attack
3) Mage Killer, usually though high Saves+Evasion+Mettle+etc.
4) Tank, usually through high AC and HP
5) Massive damage, usually through Charge and/or limited use abilities
6) Targeted Skills, to be a party face, scout, etc.
7) Speedster (needed to kill anyone, anywhere, this round), usually by riding a special Mount or Companion.

Decide what's important to you. Once we know that, it's a lot easier to help with a build.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 12:36 PM
You need Oversized Two Weapon Fighting to use two bastard swords.


since when is this?

@Person_Man
I think it's number 2 that fits here most.


But this last build i made is not really ignoring fluff. Its a quite big bit of a style oriented character. And the style i was going for is a fighter who is agile and still can make use of non-light weapons.

If you want some fluff: He's a Catfolk warrior from a Clan that unlike the usual had a strong warrior tradition and valued strict fighting training while relying on their high dexterity.
Just because I dont have one particular classes kind of floff, doesnt mean i have no fluff.

Amiria
2007-04-30, 12:48 PM
If you go back to an elf, the Champion of Corellon Larethian PrC from RoW is quite nice. The elven courtblade from the same books work very well with that PrC, it is mean two-handed sword ... but also finessable. If you can take the MAD, Paladin(of Freedom)/Fighter is a good entry into the class.

Person_Man
2007-04-30, 01:14 PM
since when is this?

@Person_Man
I think it's number 2 that fits here most.


But this last build i made is not really ignoring fluff. Its a quite big bit of a style oriented character. And the style i was going for is a fighter who is agile and still can make use of non-light weapons.

If you want some fluff: He's a Catfolk warrior from a Clan that unlike the usual had a strong warrior tradition and valued strict fighting training while relying on their high dexterity.
Just because I dont have one particular classes kind of floff, doesnt mean i have no fluff.

EWP Bastard Sword is a horrible idea. You waste a feat to gain a minor increase in damage. Don't bother.

OK, you want all day melee damage that consistantly hits. Here's a good one that uses Catfolk.

Fighter 6 (ECL 7)
Stats, in order from highest to lowest: Str > Con > Dex > Int > Wis > Cha
3 feats from character levels, 4 from Fighter bonus feats:
Catfolk Pounce, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Improved Bull Rush (required for), Shock Trooper, Leap Attack.

Pick up a two handed reach weapon with the Speed property. You'll need reach, because when you use Shock Trooper, you'll almost always hit for massive damage on your charge, but your AC will be garbage afterwards. But with a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and Hold the Line, you'll be fine.

A much stronger version of the same build uses Wolf Tribe Barbarian (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#totem-barbarian) 2/Fighter 4 using the Whirling Frenzy Rage (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedClasses.html) variant. I doubt you'd like to play a Catfolk of the Wolf Tribe (I had a kitten like that once that we raised with a puppy, she was hilarious). But if you're willing to fool around with the fluff, use it. Then the build goes: Catfolk Pounce, Improved Trip (Barbarian bonus), Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper. Knock-Down+Improved Trip and Whirling Frenzy will net you two extra attacks per turn with no real penalties, every round. Again, use a reach weapon, and this time you have Knock-Down to prevent people from getting close to you. There's also a magical items out there that gives you an additional attack of opportunity or uses of Rage.

Whatever you do, just be aware that unless you use Tome of Battle, the best source of all day, consistently good melee damage is Power Attack+Two Handed Weapon, and the best source of consistently good charge damage is Leap Attack+Shock Trooper.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 01:28 PM
EWP Bastard Sword is a horrible idea. You waste a feat to gain a minor increase in damage. Don't bother.

OK, you want all day melee damage that consistantly hits. Here's a good one that uses Catfolk.

Fighter 6 (ECL 7)
Stats, or order from highest to lowest: Str > Con > Dex > Int > Wis > Cha
3 feats from character levels, 4 from Fighter bonus feats:
Catfolk Pounce, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Improved Bull Rush (required for), Shock Trooper, Leap Attack.

Pick up a two handed reach weapon with the Speed property. You'll need reach, because when you use Shock Trooper, you'll almost always hit for massive damage on your charge, but your AC will be garbage afterwards. But with a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and Hold the Line, you'll be fine.

A much stronger version of the same build uses Wolf Tribe Barbarian (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#totem-barbarian) 2/Fighter 4 using the Whirling Frenzy Rage (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedClasses.html) variant. I doubt you'd like to play a Catfolk of the Wolf Tribe (I had a kitten like that once that we raised with a puppy, she was hilarious). But if you're willing to fool around with the fluff, use it. Then the build goes: Catfolk Pounce, Improved Trip (Barbarian bonus), Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper. Knock-Down+Improved Trip and Whirling Frenzy will net you two extra attacks per turn with no real penalties, every round. Again, use a reach weapon, and this time you have Knock-Down to prevent people from getting close to you. There's also a magical weapon enhancement out there that gives you an additional attack of opportunity.

Whatever you do, just be aware that unless you use Tome of Battle, the best source of all day, consistently good melee damage is Power Attack+Two Handed Weapon, and the best source of consistently good charge damage is Leap Attack+Shock Trooper.
from which books are shock Trooper and Leap Attack?

I couldnt find anything like this in the books i have yet.

The bastard swors are where my style urge kicks in. Fighting with axes and swords is fun. Even more fun is with katanas (masterwork bastard Swords)

Amiria
2007-04-30, 01:36 PM
Shock Trooper => Complete Warrior

Leap Attack => Complete Adventurer

You can find them both in this very useful feat list:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 01:54 PM
Shock Trooper => Complete Warrior

Leap Attack => Complete Adventurer

You can find them both in this very useful feat list:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml

Thanks. Unfortunately we dont have the Complete Adventurer (i wanted to get it but the store didnt have any in stock so i took the Complete Warrior) and i think my DM is starting to get annoyed by me always coming up with new feats printed from the internet.

Oh by the way I havent answered to your earlier post: The problem with that one is we are playing an evil party. Paladins, even Paladins of freedom are a bit unwelcome. And it gets even worse we have a half orc looking to become an eye of Gruumsh, its already hard to find excuses for him to tolerate the other two elves, a Champion of Corellon Larethian would be a bit out of frame.

Person_Man
2007-04-30, 02:08 PM
from which books are shock Trooper and Leap Attack?

I couldnt find anything like this in the books i have yet.

The bastard swors are where my style urge kicks in. Fighting with axes and swords is fun. Even more fun is with katanas (masterwork bastard Swords)

Shock Trooper is in the Complete Warrior.
Leap Attack is in Complete Adventurer.

99% of the DM's I know that allow non-core material will allow the basic Complete set, and there are complete descriptions online at Crystalkeep, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Fighting with bastard swords (or axes, or whatever) doesn't change how you roleplay. It doesn't change your character concept. It doesn't change your alignment. It has no positive net effect on the mechanics of combat. It just changes how you personally visualize combat. If you're willing to give up effectiveness for visualization, I won't argue with you. Just be aware of the choice you're making.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 02:47 PM
Shock Trooper is in the Complete Warrior.
Leap Attack is in Complete Adventurer.

99% of the DM's I know that allow non-core material will allow the basic Complete set, and there are complete descriptions online at Crystalkeep, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Fighting with bastard swords (or axes, or whatever) doesn't change how you roleplay. It doesn't change your character concept. It doesn't change your alignment. It has no positive net effect on the mechanics of combat. It just changes how you personally visualize combat. If you're willing to give up effectiveness for visualization, I won't argue with you. Just be aware of the choice you're making.

I actually am willing to. And i am aware of it. I thnk i add the Leap attack to the list of feats it sounds pretty nice to me.

Just about the armor. I've been checking the Elven chain and i noticed there, while making one is one thing, there is not much sense in buying one:
An elven Chain costs 4150gp, while a +1 Chanshirt is only 1250 and is technically the same, only 5 pounds heavier but on the other hand with an armor check penalty of only -1

Does an elven chain have any advantage against a +1 chain shirt except the 5 pounds less and the fine looks?

Person_Man
2007-04-30, 03:19 PM
I actually am willing to. And i am aware of it. I thnk i add the Leap attack to the list of feats it sounds pretty nice to me.

Just about the armor. I've been checking the Elven chain and i noticed there, while making one is one thing, there is not much sense in buying one:
An elven Chain costs 4150gp, while a +1 Chanshirt is only 1250 and is technically the same, only 5 pounds heavier but on the other hand with an armor check penalty of only -1

Does an elven chain have any advantage against a +1 chain shirt except the 5 pounds less and the fine looks?

There is no reason not to buy normal full plate, or Mithral Full Plate if your Dex is 16. Don't bother pumping your Dex above 16. Put the points into Str or Con.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-30, 03:26 PM
Chain mail is different from a chain shirt. It's substantially more expensive because making medium armor mithral is more expensive than light. Because it doesn't already have an enhancement bonus it can more cheaply be enhanced than a +1 chain shirt.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 03:27 PM
There is no reason not to buy normal full plate, or Mithral Full Plate if your Dex is 16. Don't bother pumping your Dex above 16. Put the points into Str or Con.

ill consider it. but i got the feeling that with the 2 points i can get out of the Dex i cannotin crease my other stats. Con 17 costs +3 points and Strength is at maximum anyway.

Still i would like to know if an elven Chain has any advantage to a +1 Chain Shirt. Even if im not going to use them, i would like to know if there is any sense in buying an elven chain for more than 3times the cost.

EDIT

Chain mail is different from a chain shirt. It's substantially more expensive because making medium armor mithral is more expensive than light.

so its only more expensive for the heck of it?

PinkysBrain
2007-04-30, 03:36 PM
I didn't realize in time you didn't realize it was completely non magical :) As I added afterwards, it's cheaper to enhance.

Threeshades
2007-04-30, 03:41 PM
I didn't realize in time you didn't realize it was completely non magical :) As I added afterwards, it's cheaper to enhance.

You're right. But that only kicks in when we are comparing a +3 Elven chain and +4 Chain shirt (IIRC the cost for +3 is 8000 and for +4 is 16000 gp, so we have 12300 for the elven chain +3 and 16250 for the Chain Shirt +4)

Annarrkkii
2007-04-30, 06:59 PM
For a fair bit of MAD, I propose the following Stabby build.

STABBY
Human Swordsage 4/Swashbuckler 3

32 pt. Buy + 1 level boost
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 8

1. Swordsage 1—Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand, Quick to Act +1, Adaptive Style, Two-Weapon Fighting
2. Swordsage 2—Wisdom to AC
3. Swashbuckler 1—Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler 2—Grace +1
5. Swashbuckler 3—Insightful Strike
6. Swordsage 3—Shadow Blade
7. Swordsage 4

Possessions: Mithral Breastplate +1 (costs less than mithral fullplate, functions similarly but as light armor), Gloves of Dexterity +2, and a pair of +1 Daggers are all that are central to the build. Useful items include potions of Cat's Grace, Fox's Cunning, or Owl's Wisdom, depending. Usually count on one of the above as a buff from a caster, and you should be fine. Dexterity is your first priority, even though it won't stack with the existing gloves.

Maneuvers Known (IL 5):
1st—Sapphire Nightmare Blade
1st—Moment of Perfect Mind
1st—Wolf Fang Strike
1st—Burning Blade
1st—Shadow Blade Style
2nd—Cloak of Deception
2nd—Drain Vitality
3rd—Insightful Strike
3rd—Shadow Garrote

Stances Known:
1st—Child of Shadow
1st—Step of the Wind

You're moderately effective this way, but you'll be that much better next level. Make your next two levels Psychic Warrior and take Deadly Defense and EWP Kukri as your two bonus feats, and Iron Will as your 9th. Grab another two levels of Swordsage for some more maneuvers at Assassin's Stance, then multiclass dip once more into Cleric for three levels. Then you can take three levels of Swordsage and three levels of Black Flame Zealot. Great flavor, stealthy, self-buffing, TWFing, 3/4 BAB, and decent skill spread means you're one nasty dude. Eventually.

Final build has three levels of XP penalty, and looks like Swordsage 9/Swashbuckler 3/Psychic Warrior 2/Cleric 3/Black Flame Zealot 3.

That's a largely flavor build, mind you, for a kukri-wielded, Shadowhanding, non-rogue sneak attacker. It could probably be easily improved upon, but I rather like it.

Sir_Banjo
2007-04-30, 09:46 PM
That i didnt think about the CW. Thanks for the hint.

We're average level 7 right now so:
For Stabby, maybe a swashbuckler(5)/invisible blade(2) might make sense
feats would be the rquired three, and if i should happen to play a human two-weapon fighting.
For the abilities I'm thinking about
STR 12
CON 14
DEX 16
INT 16
WIS 11
CHA 11

would that be a good start?

You need to have at least some charisma, you're practically a swashbuckler:smallwink:.

The rest of it looks good.

You may want to also look at complete adventurer. There's a whole bunch of useful feats and PrC (such as the Thief-Acrobat) that, whilst not being directly related to your idea, would increase your mobility/sneak attack/etc.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-30, 10:41 PM
I don't know if you still want it at this point, but you mentioned not having the stats for whispergnomes available. You can find them free and legally here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3).

Matthew
2007-05-01, 09:01 AM
I actually am willing to. And i am aware of it. I thnk i add the Leap attack to the list of feats it sounds pretty nice to me.
Honestly Threeshades, don't choose Bastard Swords over Long Swords for a Two Weapon Fighting Build (A Master Work Bastard Sword may pretend to be a Katana, but a a Master Work Long Sword has just about as much right to that claim). The difference between 1D8 and 1D10 Damage is not worth it unless you are taking the Exotic Weapon Master Prestige Class (in which case the advanatages are totally different).

Two Weapon Fighting + Oversized Two Weapon Fighting + Quick Draw is a good combination that lets your character otherwise behave as a Two Handed Weapon Fighter until the opportunity to execute a Full Attack appears, at which point you can go Two Weapon Fighting.

Starbuck_II
2007-05-01, 03:08 PM
I actually am willing to. And i am aware of it. I thnk i add the Leap attack to the list of feats it sounds pretty nice to me.

Just about the armor. I've been checking the Elven chain and i noticed there, while making one is one thing, there is not much sense in buying one:
An elven Chain costs 4150gp, while a +1 Chanshirt is only 1250 and is technically the same, only 5 pounds heavier but on the other hand with an armor check penalty of only -1

Does an elven chain have any advantage against a +1 chain shirt except the 5 pounds less and the fine looks?
Only reason to have Elven chain is how it looks to say: I have mithral Chain mail.
I perfer Mithral Breastplate or or if really high Dex Mithral Chain shirt.

Threeshades
2007-05-01, 04:53 PM
I have prepared myself the previously posted fighter character. And right now im goind toward invisible blade with my current character. She's a Catfolk rogue5/fighter1
Her feats are point blank shot, far shot, weapon finesse, weapon focus (dagger)

I unfortunately had to waste all the skill points i got as a fighter on sense motive because until now i didnt have any ranks in it yet. I would have gone for swashbuckler instead but i dont think my dm wouldnt have allowed it. I was lucky that he allowed me to multiclass as a fighter (i didnt get weapon and armor proficiencies because i only got the training from preactical fighting). I will take another level as fighter for TWF (if i get a feint as a free action i want to make something out of my full sneak attack).

If i will go on with this character or if i change it will be decided by the cards. We are soon going to get to draw from the Deck of Many Things again. And if my results will all over be positive i will stick with my character. If they should be negative or i even die, i will change to the fighter. (While i hope it wont be a catfolk, but a Foxfolk played with the rules of catfolk)

Threeshades
2007-05-02, 09:48 AM
Sorry for the double post but i have to get this up before it drops on second page and becomes forgotten.

I have thought about the fighter again. And maybe i should change the build again. I want it to be more effective after all. So i thought about dismissing the 2 wepaon fighting and the bastard sword roficiency.
I thought about going with the dodge->whirlwind attack tree, or the leap attack/shock trooper variant but i noticed that those feats end up in me specializing on either fighting a whole mass of weak enemies or fighting with few powerful enemies.
I would like to find a way to be equally effective both ways. one would maybe be taking feats in both ways but maybe there are also some feats that help me with both. But the only i can think of is the dual weilding way (getting lots of attacks i can choose to spread over multiple enemies or concentrate on a single one).