Running a trial?

[MrUberGr]

I posted this in the roleplaying category, but didn't get any helpful answer, so I thought I'd post here as well. During our last session, in our magic restricted world, i.e. where magic is banned in the cities, and specially disintegrates and the likes, our hothead sorcerer decided it didn't suit her to help the rebels at that specific moment, (she agreed to help for a substantial amount of money) and when the rebel got a bit pushy, she decided to disintegrate him in the middle of the street. The antimagic guard tracked her down, and took her into custody. She is currently in a cell with wards against all sorts of magics.

My question is, unless I make up a riot or something to give her a chance to escape, she must undergo a trial. I was thinking two different options. Either a public city-square type-trial, or a dungeon/inquisition trial. How could I run each?

Run bluff-insight-persuasion "encounter"? What's holding the judges back from casting circle of truth, and just making her tell the truth, condemning her?

On the other hand, torturing the char I think won't get the right responses from the PC.


Given that I don't really want to kill her, what would be a good punishment? Pay off a huge amount? Prison for some time would be worse than killing her, since she wouldn't be able to play.
I thought of some sort of magic collar that would tighten around her neck if she casts a spell within city borders, and depending on the spell level it would tighten more

[DragonLordIT]

She could try to convice (persuasion) that she did the only possible thing in that moment and using magic to kill a bad guy was her only possibility. She could beg the royal/minister pardon.
She could be obliged to spend a period of time (downtime activity) in the city to pay for her sins while the other member of the party craft, find magic items, go having parties and so on (Shaaaaame on her character).
She could be banished from the city and all neighbourhood (possibly failing the adventure/mission of the whole party!!! She'll think twice next time)

I understand what you say about not killing/torturing her, but it is also true that would be wrong that the players may do everything everywhere without thinking of the consequences. As you say it would be logical to think that the guards will cast zone of truth to make her confess, it would be even logical to think they'll burn her in the public square if that is the common consequence of using magic. It is all about roleplaying and metagaming, if the player do something just because it is the easiest/straight solution without thinking what the character would do it is not your fault

[Kurt Kurageous]

What is the RAI of this particular law? What's the origin of the law? How busy are the courts?

Seems to me she's guilty of murder with malice aforethought (now called 1st degree murder) unless she thought the target would survive. Tough to prove intent with a stranger.

Maybe the courts are too busy. Is the victim a nobody or even someone the state wanted dead? Perhaps then the state/prosecution allows the charge to be reduced to a crime of passion/reckless endangerment (2nd degree murder, aka manslaughter) with significantly less death to her as a consequence. Suffer she will, die she won't. Banished? Probably a given. Restitution, I don't know, depends on who was the victim.

Without any of this, she's a goner. And the Bard can start singing a parody of "I Fought the Law."

I would not summarize the outcome of a trial with a d20 roll in any case.

[DireSickFish]

Where is the rest of the party in all this? Because a prison break is adventuring 101 from my standpoint.

You do have a lot of options here.

The easy way would be for the judge to realize she is a powerful caster and as punishment make her perform some great work for the city. If they do not pain of death. Banishment is also a harsh punishment that keeps the PC alive.

You could also just straight up sentence her to death. Then the rest of the party has to figure out how to break her out before the execution.

A large fine seems anticlimactic for a crime of this nature. If it was property damage or helping someone escape from the law I could see a fine being warranted.

Circle of truth can be fooled rather easily. They could use it if they have access to the right spellcasters. Have witnesses from the crime scene guards or whatnot, that way if the rest of the party finds out they can bribe them or make them disappear.

I'd make the trial scene itself short and to the point without much skill rolling so it's over quickly.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Seems to me she's guilty of murder with malice aforethought (now called 1st degree murder) unless she thought the target would survive.


Please, your honour, I couldn't have known he didn't have more than 75 HP! And I'd been having rotten luck with my damage dice all day!

...

To the OP, this is a sticky one, because the law is clear, the crime is not a minor one and the authorities clearly have the power to enforce the law. If I were DMing, I wouldn't want to use a riot ex machina... I'd hold a trial, find her guilty (because seriously, how can you possibly defend that) and make the penalty clear (probably execution, probably on a fixed date. Maybe the next equinox/solstice/feast day). Then it's up to the PCs to come up with a solution.

[MrUberGr]

What is the RAI of this particular law? What's the origin of the law? How busy are the courts?
...
I would not summarize the outcome of a trial with a d20 roll in any case.

The law is basically that magic is mostly not allowed in cities, due to an attack that happened many years ago that destroyed a capital city. Using magic to get convince someone to do something would likely get you fined. Using magic to run faster would get you a warning. Using magic to explode someone would probably not end up well.

As far as I know, in the dark ages, stealing a loaf would cost you a hand... On the other hand they're in a much more civilized place that could be good (i.e. we do not enforce such brutal tactics as execution) or even worse (i.e. the crime is so appalling we must punish her to the fullest).

As I said, she killed a rebel. She had agreed to help the rebels, so one could say she is a rebel herself. However if she manages to keep that secret it could be a bonus to get of "lightly" by saying "the rebel tried to force her into helping them and I could never do that".


Where is the rest of the party in all this? Because a prison break is adventuring 101 from my standpoint.
...
The easy way would be for the judge to realize she is a powerful caster and as punishment make her perform some great work for the city. If they do not pain of death. Banishment is also a harsh punishment that keeps the PC alive.

The party is in the city and have been informed of what happened (they had split at the time of the incident). They asked a normal guard "where is the prison" and inspected the mundane prison. She is in the antimagic guard's prison. :smallbiggrin: I think of the antimagic guard as a bunch of fighters equipped with magic items to face casters, such as wand of counterspell etc, magic trackers etc along with some magic-users. The prison itself I imagine as a place where all magic wouldn't really function. For example one PC has a magic hand-crossbow that shoots bolts made of ice. It wouldn't function at all in there.

She is a pretty powerful caster (lvl 12 sorc) but she's (by choosing the spells and draconic ancestry) a pyromancer, so unless they have some bog they need to be rid of the mosquitoes, I don't think she be of much help. Maybe she could be forced to fight against the rebels.

Banishment would probably make the whole party go, and that's something I wouldn't want to do for the time being.



To the OP, this is a sticky one, because the law is clear, the crime is not a minor one and the authorities clearly have the power to enforce the law. If I were DMing, I wouldn't want to use a riot ex machina... I'd hold a trial, find her guilty (because seriously, how can you possibly defend that) and make the penalty clear (probably execution, probably on a fixed date. Maybe the next equinox/solstice/feast day). Then it's up to the PCs to come up with a solution.

What do you mean "riot ex machina"? A riot just happened about?

I think that what DireSickFish suggested, bribing/removing guards and other sources could be a good solution.

[Ninja_Prawn]

What do you mean "riot ex machina"? A riot just happened about?

Yes, basically. You said "My question is, unless I make up a riot or something to give her a chance to escape..." which I would find unsatisfying because it's a deus ex machina.


I think that what DireSickFish suggested, bribing/removing guards and other sources could be a good solution.

Yeah, if you want to get her out, make sure the party is aware that Guard A is corrupt and will take bribes, Guard B hates the rebels because they killed her father, Guard C is notoriously lazy and Guard D happens to be a wild mage who's trying to keep his 'condition' a secret. That gives the players various hooks they can use, and nudges them pretty blatantly towards a plan that involves the word 'jailbreak'.

[Takewo]

Rationally thinking, should they keep her alive, the city would probably not want her about any longer, so banishments seems the most reasonable option.

If you do not want that, the second most rational idea I can think of is anything that keeps her from using magic ever again. Charisma consumption, some kind of curse, wish, some kind of arcane mark with that negates magic, an object that creates an anti-magic field of which she can't get rid...

But I guess that that would be pretty much the same as killing either the character or the plot straight away.

As you said, they could force her to fight against the rebels. But there must be someone witty within the law system, and I'm pretty sure that "letting an outlaw who's displayed such a power get out of your control on purpose" wouldn't be a fortunate line in a Law Handbook.

So the only option left is either a prison break-out or making sure that she wins the trial.

[MrUberGr]

Yeah, if you want to get her out, make sure the party is aware that Guard A is corrupt and will take bribes, Guard B hates the rebels... That gives the players various hooks they can use, and nudges them pretty blatantly towards a plan that involves the word 'jailbreak'.

That's a very good idea, removing witnesses without killing them etc, as long as they actually try to look into the guards that arrested her.


Rationally thinking, should they keep her alive, the city would probably not want her about any longer, so banishments seems the most reasonable option.

But I guess that that would be pretty much the same as killing either the character or the plot straight away.

As you said, they could force her to fight against the rebels. But there must be someone witty within the law system...

Banishment is a good option, but it would probably mean the whole party left the kingdom, and I don't want to do that yet. They left the previous area early, and this one has plenty more to it.

As for negating her magic, it could be within specific zones, such as inside cities etc. By the time they leave, if she was "good" they'd remove it before she left.

Indeed. Someone "holding her leash" would be necessary so she doesn't defect to the rebels or run away.

[Plus1Sword]

You said the person that was bugging the Sorceress was a rebel right? Whose to say a higher level inquisitor/nobleman in the city doesn't know/suspect that the person is a rebel? Create a higher level NPC, give them high insight and good ways to deal with mages(Whether that means mage slayer feat, gnomish magic resistance, or a magic item that makes an antimagic field, etc) and have them come speak to the prisoner privately, perhaps even eschewing normal laws as a demonstration of authority. Have the Inquisitor tell the Sorceress he knows the victim was a rebel against him, that his sources have seen the Sorceress consorting with the rebels before(it may or may not be a bluff, who knows). Magic is heinous, perhaps even a crime against nature in the first degree. Consorting with and fueling a rebellion is an attack on society, an attack against law and order. Both are punishable only by death.

But the trial could be prolonged. The sentence lightened to banishment, or even a massive fee of gold that would get lost in the midst of the rest of the the cities paperwork. If the Sorceress could help give the names of all the leaders of the rebellion. If the Sorceress could aid him in an elaborate plot to gather the rebels all in one place, to allow him to bring down the hammer and let Justice/The King/God's will be done. If the Sorceress accepts she could gain much, but be become a traitor in the eyes of the party or even the campaign. If she doesn't then let the prisonbreak proceed as normal, using the negotiation as set up for the next big villain on the block.

[Blacky the Blackball]

It sounds like "New character time" to me.

From your descriptions of your game - and forgive me if I've got the wrong impression - you've put yourself in a Catch 22 situation here.

On the one hand you've made it clear that this is a strict society in which magic is not tolerated; and it's one that has the resources available to deal with the unlawful use of magic - anti-magic squads and jails and the like. On the other hand you want to be lenient on a person who just broke the law by murdering someone by using magic. You can't have both. If you let her off "for the good of the story" simply because she's a PC then it completely undermines the setting.

You don't even need to play out the trial and punishment. Just tell the player that whatever the fate of the former character ends up - whether they're imprisoned, lobotomised, executed, or whatever - they're now NPC status and the player needs to create a new character if they wish to continue playing in the campaign. If the player complains about this, then point out (politely, of course) what the character has actually done. They didn't "disintegrate a rebel" or "gank a mob" or anything. They murdered someone using outlawed magic. They did something that the city takes very seriously and has the resources to deal with. So they should expect it to be taken seriously and those resources to be deployed accordingly.

If the other characters want to do a jailbreak to get the sorcerer back then obviously they can (you're not going to railroad them into not doing so), but they should be aware that:

1) Given the way the city is organised and the high (and expensive) security of the jail, this is going to be extremely dangerous - the jail will be expecting the sort of people it contains to have mates wanting to break them out - and will only have a slim chance of success.

2) Should the jailbreak fail, or even possibly should it succeed, one or more of the other characters is likely to end up dead or also captured.

3) Even if the jailbreak succeeds, the characters will be wanted people with high bounties on their heads across the kingdom or even continent. The city is going to want to pull out all the stops to make an example of them in order to discourage this sort of thing.

If that's the direction they want the campaign to take, then I'd happily let them attempt a jailbreak. But if they don't they should write off the imprisoned character and recruit someone new to join the party in their place.

[MrUberGr]

Both of these are great ideas! I'll give them a bit more thought once I get off work, and have some time to answer!

[Yoroichi]

I think answering the questions of everybody will get or has already gotten you a clear picture of where you want to go.

I think you should go forth and have a harsh trial condemning her to execution.

If the players are clever enough to break her out on their own, design your conveniently-not-impenetrable magic prison and let them do it.

When she is condemned to death, have her drink a special magic potion that suppresses all magical powers for 1 week, and then have a routine low security execution.

Then, hint to the players that they can enlist the rebels' help in order to rescue her from mundane execution, in exchange for the players help in the rebels' cause, or just have the players rescue her, since it has been unprecedented of someone escaping a mundane execution.

All this given that the no one saw her kill the rebel leader, and with fear of being branded a rebel-terrorist etc etc.

My 2ond idea is that the sorceress will be pardoned if she and her party agree to destroying the rebel scum. She is forced to wear a magical ankle bracer.

The first option lets you keep your power as a DM, which is important in groups with people who are strong willed.

What exactly is the role of the rebels in your story?

[MrUberGr]

The plot twist Yoroichi is that out of the 3 members, one (the sorceress) has agreed to help the rebels, while the other was ordered by his guild to support the king (for a hefty amount as a reward). The king's supporter knows this while the sorceress has no clue, both IC and OoC.

The rebels are a part of this kingdom and the group doesn't know exactly what's going on. The kingdom's economy is based on 2-3 unique plants that can only grow there, and their export is strictly regulated. It's basically a story of a king who became oppressive after the various guilds decided to make profit behind his back. It's a moral dilemma the players would face on their own.

However I had to railroad one as a rebel supporter and the other as a king supporter because one day they decided: "we don't like what's going on in this city, let's go elsewhere" and I had to do something interesting fast.

As Blacky said, do you really expect this prison to have a vulnerability? It's a very rich city that has a large budget for security. What could be something so trivial that one could overlook, that could give a significant advantage to the PCs?
I think the best solution would work on a more personal level, such as engaging the guards, finding their weak personality spots that might make them help in the escape etc.

[dragsvart]

personally I'd avoid too much rolling, this is a good set up for RP. how I would run it would be something like this:

A major trial/execution will be a big deal in most medieval cities so it will be announced. the other PC will of course hear of it and can have a chance to intervene (whether by finding a lawyer, finding people to help the sorcerer escape (rebels would need some work after the sorcerer killed one of their people), planning an rescue, or something else) while the sorcerer can try to think of a plan in prison. then there would be a trial which would be a good time for some heavy RP (I wouldn't do any rolls besides occasional deception roles(a ring of truth is magic and magic is illegal)) where they can try to get a good verdict (the trial may or may not be fixed and the prosecutor might make a good NPC to return later). If the sorcerer is found guilty and sentenced to death she would return to the prison for at least a day while the execution is planned (giving the PCs time to hatch a new plan). then the execution, make it a big affair with a large crowd, and the sorcerer led up to the gallows (or other execution device). If nothing happens to stop the execution *cough* PCs *cough* some of the guy who the sorcerer killed might decide they want to be the ones to kill her and attack, or she might just be executed.

[Gritmonger]

What is the magical prison like? I'm imagining a burnt-out spot that is completely devoid of magic, this disruption due to some previous cataclysm (and possibly why these plants only grow here) - the "magic prison" being in this abandoned roofed-over pit instead of in a high tower, and some of the stones or minerals disruptive enough to still have the ability to suppress magic away from the pit.

Maybe they sentence her to wear a "Lodestone" while within the city - or maybe for life - that suppresses magic. Sounds like a bad thing, but it might give her advantage versus other cast spells (being a relatively powerful antimagic device, almost an artifact) maybe even with a radius that means her party members can't come within thirty feet and have their magical abilities still work.

Just blue skying. It might allow you to go through with the trial, sentence her appropriately as a "danger to the public" but avoid a capital sentence because of performing a public service.