Planning a heist - should I allow this, is it realistic?

[Kafana]

Ok, so my group, lead by a level 7 beguiler with dips in mindbender and shadowcraft mage (level 10 total) has decided to convince his group (a level 9 cleric with travel and trickery and a level 10 fighter) to plan a heist on the vault of one of the sects in the capital city of an elven kingdom. The sect is a branch of the patron of the elves and tends to be more "human" in its nature (essentially meaning they care for wealth, at least in the form of wondrous items).

Now, the group has a guild of mercenaries under their command (about 15-20 people, though they only plan to use their chief rogue for assistance). They also have had dealings with the thieves guild and they plan to work with them on the job, possibly hiring one or two of their experts to assist, giving them a % of the take). The group plans to spend a week studying the exterior, interior and pretty much anything they can think of before they move in on the job.

Now, seeing as they are high level, have connections and are planning to take the time needed to play this smart, how easy should it be for them to pull this off? This sect is possibly the 2nd strongest branch of the main religion, and with that should have some protection in their vault. Seeing as how they are also a religious group, they have access to divination spells (though the team has accounted for this and is planning a way to avoid detection all together).

What would it take to pull this off and should this be hard or easy, objectively speaking. I do realize that in the end it comes down to me as the DM to say what is what. For the record, the capital while it is a capitol has less than 25k citizens, so it's not huge.

They plan to use the money they make from the heist to resurrect a friend, as well as further improve their guild from what's left, though the beguiler also finds this a very fun challenge so he is also interested in the heist for heist's sake, which is in line with his character, as he pretends to being a master thief.

What do you guys think?

[frogglesmash]

The difficulty of the heist depends largely on the prevalence of magic of your campaign, and more the specifically, the availability of high level casters. If both are very common, then you would be completely realistic to have the entire vault riddled with magical security systems and failsafes to the point where it's nigh on impossible to break in. Of course the real question is if you, as a DM, want it to be possible for them to succeed.

[Kafana]

The difficulty of the heist depends largely on the prevalence of magic of your campaign, and more the specifically, the availability of high level casters. If both are very common, then you would be completely realistic to have the entire vault riddled with magical security systems and failsafes to the point where it's nigh on impossible to break in. Of course the real question is if you, as a DM, want it to be possible for them to succeed.

Lets say for the sake of argument that the highest level character you could find in the capitol would be around level 13, and that there would only be a handful of people in the capitol above level 10 (lets say 20, of various classes). You'd be able to find levels 5 and below without much trouble and in between would be, well, in between.

[Brookshw]

How easy this is will ultimately be a matter of the groups prep. How they gather information, their approach, how they plan on dealing with whatever they encounter, and their get away plan.

Heist adventures are definitely fun so kudos to you for running one. My advice to you is to think about reasonable defences an important sounding bank should have, guards both mundane and magical in nature, alarm traps and other such traps including easily traceable items in the vault. Divinations as you mention are a great start. Also leave lots of room for various ideas to work, disgruntled guards to bribe for info, figure out the major figures in the bank, who they are and what their routines are. Then think about the city guard who likely would get involved somehow, even if its in an investigation capacity.

You might want to look into Shadowrun adventures and advise for some inspiration.

[NichG]

I think the best structure for a heist involves something like tight constraints, 90% foreknowledge, and 10% surprise. That is to say, it works best if the PCs have a lot of very thorough information before they set foot into the vault, so they can make all sorts of elaborate plans. Now, if the heist were too loose then they could just improvise the entire thing, which doesn't really have the feel of planning a heist (more like a dungeon crawl at that point). So that's where the 'tight constraints' part comes in. Time should be a very limited resource before the difficulty spikes to nigh-impossible, but going along with the foreknowledge part the PCs should be completely aware of both the time constraint they'll need to operate under and the consequences for violating it.

For example, once the vault door is opened it automatically stops sending a deadman's switch type magical signal back to elven HQ; if that doesn't correspond to a pre-arranged time window in which the vault is opened each day, force cages go off and a squad of Lv15 characters teleports onto the scene within the next 3 minutes to investigate the incident. The time constraint here can be interpreted in two ways: steal from the vault during the appropriate narrow time window for the day (a period in which ostensibly the owners of the vault are actually there), or get out of there in the 3 minutes before the high level characters crash the party.

And now the 10% surprise part. Given the tight constraint and foreknowledge, it encourages planning things ahead. But if they cut things too fine, or plan too precisely, then when reality throws a wrench into the works the plan will collapse. So having a 10% unknown factor means that the PCs need to adapt their plan on the fly as they carry it out (so that actually playing through it matters, not just planning it). The way I'd run this would be to give myself a certain fixed number of 'gotchas' - probably one per PC - which the players are aware that I have. Maybe even 'gotchas' of pre-specified types, but with details decided on the spot. I can then play a 'gotcha' at any point to have something deviate from the information the PCs had going in, and I can do so spontaneously in response to what the PCs are doing (e.g. I don't plan the gotchas ahead of time).

[Sacrieur]

The last time one of my players tried to rob a bank they accused me of deus ex machina because the vault was a magic stone wall that required a special magical key to open (and thus impregnable to the disable device skill).

All I can say is give your players some reward for their effort... If they survive.

[Darrin]

Also be aware of the Cyberpunk 2020 Effect: The longer the PCs spend on the planning of a heist (both in-game and meatspace-time), the more likely they are to go "Full Aggro Frontal Assault" at the very first hint of trouble. (Also shows up a lot in ShadowRun.)

[Aran nu tasar]

I agree wholeheartedly with the foreknowledge thing. The players should be able to find, with minimal work, security plans of the entire area and a detailed description of all of the obstacles in their way. Give them time to case the place in person, too, and to talk to guards and other workers. If the team is led by a beguiler, there will probably be at least a small element of manipulation rather than pure stealth, something along the lines of Oceans 11 or similar. Be ready for that, and be ready to generate guards/managers/bureaucrats/etc as needed when the players inevitably want to talk to them.

In terms of the actual security, you need them to block the casters' tricks at least to some degree. The beguiler, for instance, shouldn't be able to waltz in invisible, open the safe with a knock spell, and stroll out. This isn't the same thing as the classic petty DM denying them the chance to use their abilities, since the players both in and out of character will know about these entirely reasonable security features. The fun is in coming up with creative ways to beat them.

Of course, something has to go wrong; it is no fun if the players' plan works perfectly. You should absolutely plan twists, but be aware that problems will manifest organically as well. Bad dice rolls or spur of the moment decisions, or merely a weakness in the plan that nobody saw, will cause plenty of issues. Be ready to run with those instead of what you had planned.

[Nibbens]

According to PF, at least - a city with less than 25K citizens falls into the "large city" qualifier as per the settlement rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/settlements).

According to the same list, it has an 8K base value, with 9-36 magic items available at any time to the shop owners. However, more importantly, a large city has a spellcasting limit of 7th level (without individual city modifiers to mitigate this level)

You should assume that with a 50K purchase limit per month, 7th level casting available and the length of time the current owners have held the vault (and could provide for defenses and such) you could easily determine the maximum amount of money that could have been spent ob defenses.

Then, look at the organization, and determine what % of that value they would have applied to the defenses of the target.

All you'd have to do is set the layout, pick the defenses with the available funds and watch the PCs destroy or get destroyed by the defenses you set in place. If they complain that it was too hard or too easy, that's their fault for not researching harder.

[Janthkin]

Lets say for the sake of argument that the highest level character you could find in the capitol would be around level 13, and that there would only be a handful of people in the capitol above level 10 (lets say 20, of various classes). You'd be able to find levels 5 and below without much trouble and in between would be, well, in between.That sets the stage nicely. Assume that not all of those level 10+ NPCs work for the bank or local law enforcement (and then account for the fact that the bank is part of a larger religious organization itself, presumably with a few higher-level NPCs who aren't local).

I'd compromise, and limit "fixed" defenses to what a 9th level cleric could put in place, plus mundane traps & locks, and maybe one 11th level wizard ability (from the bank's outside "security consultant"). This includes:

Guards w/Detect & See Invisible spells available, and training in spotting invisible creatures; maybe "Greater Resistance" for a guard or two; maybe the Bank Manager (level 9 cleric) gets issued a Rod of Chain Spell, and can spread around Magic Vestments/Greater Magic Weapon at night (as that's more cost-effective than buying the guards magic gear, plus denies the PCs extra loot)
Summoned creatures
Fire Traps (and similar)
Anti-divination effects in place
The "Status" spell (PHB) is great for guards, as is "Chain of Eyes" (SPC)
Magical lighting (if cast Heightened, can seriously disrupt any attempts to use Darkness effects during a heist)
Magical Darkness (again, Heightened if possible)
Nystul's Magical Aura to hide magic traps/effects
"Hand of the Faithful" (SPC) cast every night after closing time
"Commune" - 9 questions: "Is someone planning on robbing the bank Monday night? Tuesday night? Wednesday night?" etc.
"Forbiddance" was probably cast when the vault was built (Dimensional Lock is probably out of reach at level 8)
"Hallow" can have some effects built into it
Various "Symbol" spells (which can have passwords built in to allow your guards/clerks to bypass them)

Basically, run through the cleric list, and anything with a duration of hours/level is a fair target for fixed defenses, particularly with the use of Extend spell (or Rods thereof). Guards should carry one-use items (potions, scrolls, low-charged wands) and use them appropriately (but not freely - someone has to pay for those). The vault should include some traceable items, either as targets for Locate Object spells or more mundane tracking (uniquely-flawed gemstones, art, etc.), either real or excellent forgeries (has the party kept up on their Appraise skill?).

Sounds like fun!

[marphod]

Based on the subject line alone: Yes and No respectively.

Should you allow it? Yes. it doesn't mean it will be successful, but if the PCs come up with a good plan and handle the contingencies, they should have a shot at it. Doesn't need to be a GOOD shot at it, just a shot. Most heists can also end up with a partial success.

Is it Realistic? This is DnD. No. it isn't realistic. That's the point of heroic fantasy.

[graeylin]

To avoid some of the inevitable "you are cheating" accusations (because you used a diviner to know their plans, or you had a lock requiring two keys, or a trap, or...), encourage them to do their research BEFORE the heist.

Have them spend some money on scuttlebutt and gossip. Have them bribe a teller. Have them steal some plans, with the result of all this being they learn the following about the bank:

Every morning at dawn, a wizard and cleric cast a divination spell and ask "will the bank be robbed today?"

The vault has three levels of abjuration spells on it. One of them is X. the other looks like X, or Y. The third, no one has seen or will talk about, but it appears to be...

There is a talking mirror that detects alignment of anyone standing at the entrance.

The vault requires a pasword that changes daily. If you misspeak the password more than three times, X happens.

There's an undead skeleton of a XXX inside the vault, and only a person with a badge shaped like this can pass.


basically, don't make it a "DM vs Player" heist, make it a "here's the situation. You guys figure out how to by-pass it" heist. .

Plus, you make them use some skills. And, as you get hints of their plans, you can drop hints or an ally or something in their path, to guide them.

"Okay, we fly to the roof, and use stone shape to open a hole in the ceiling..."

Except, they run across a dwarf in a tavern, who let's it slip that he built in a trap on the roof, or there's an anti-flying zone, or there's a steel plate that stone shape won't work on, etc..

[Janthkin]

There's an undead skeleton of a XXX inside the vault, and only a person with a badge shaped like this can pass.
Sudden vision of a blood-soaked guard, at 0 HP, reaching for a glass-fronted box. Inside is a gemstone, and a sign on the box says "In case of emergency, break gem." He smashes the gem, collapses into negative HP, and doesn't see the released Elemental that pops out of the stone....

[Th3N3xtGuy]

...and in the middle of the heist on there escape, BAM. Zombie apocalypse now they need to sneak out with guards and zombies in the area :p