[3.5] New Player needs help with Spiked Chain build

[Lendário]

Hello playground.
This monday i'm going to play my very first D&D game.
I played WoD only for many years, but finally i meet a D&D DM.

The campaign is going to take place in a low magic setting created by the DM. He said hes going to use several homebrew rules to control the power of casters.
I decided to play as a Human Figther using a Spiked Chain. I did some reading and like the ideia of using Trip and Disarms from distance.
Because most of the group being new, and some language barriers, the DM reduced book availability heavily.
I can ONLY use the Core Books ( PHB2 not included as far as i know) and Complete Warrior.


What i need is a 1 to 20 level progression build.

30 points
Spiked Chain Human Figther/????/????
Using only Core Books and Complete Warrior.


Thank you in advance.

[eggynack]

The standard build for this situation, for it fits perfectly, is the horizon tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)). It's about as well as you can do in this situation, and should handle pretty well. Doesn't technically go all the way to 20, but that deficiency isn't all that important, and you can put most things in those few remaining slots with little issue.

[Threadnaught]

The standard build for this situation, for it fits perfectly, is the horizon tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)). It's about as well as you can do in this situation, and should handle pretty well. Doesn't technically go all the way to 20, but that deficiency isn't all that important, and you can put most things in those few remaining slots with little issue.

Ninja'd so hard it's not funny.

Yeah, Horizon Tripper is the Tome of Battle build for when Tome of Battle isn't allowed.

[Lendário]

The standard build for this situation, for it fits perfectly, is the horizon tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)). It's about as well as you can do in this situation, and should handle pretty well. Doesn't technically go all the way to 20, but that deficiency isn't all that important, and you can put most things in those few remaining slots with little issue.

OK, this looks good.
A few questions through:

If i go for Spiked Chain, should i start as Figther so i can have it right away?

Someone in that thread mentioned Exotic Weapon Master as a good option if using Complete Warrior. What class i would have to drop to use it? I can't have more then 4 Classes, right?

[eggynack]

If i go for Spiked Chain, should i start as Figther so i can have it right away?
Couldn't hurt too much, though I'm inclined to think that a guisarme would work about as well at those phases, and perhaps even better in the long term. You're not taking too much of a hit, but you do lose eight skill points and one hit point in the process


Someone in that thread mentioned Exotic Weapon Master as a good option if using Complete Warrior. What class i would have to drop to use it? I can't have more then 4 Classes, right?
Don't see why you can't. You can have as many classes as you want.

[Lendário]

Couldn't hurt too much, though I'm inclined to think that a guisarme would work about as well at those phases, and perhaps even better in the long term. You're not taking too much of a hit, but you do lose eight skill points and one hit point in the process


Don't see why you can't. You can have as many classes as you want.

OK. The ideal route then is to stick with the Guisarme untill i get the exotic feat?

[OldTrees1]

Someone in that thread mentioned Exotic Weapon Master as a good option if using Complete Warrior. What class i would have to drop to use it? I can't have more then 4 Classes, right?

You can have as many classes as you have levels you just need your base classes(prestige classes not included) to be relatively close in level(IF and only IF your DM is using the almost never used multiclass xp penalties).

New material from Complete Warrior that is good for a Spiked Chain wielder:
Exotic Weapon Master PrC
Karmic Strike feat

Prerequisites needed for the prestige classes
HW: 8 ranks in Knowledge(Geography), Endurance feat
EWM: BAB +6, 3 ranks in Craft(Weapon Smithing), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus
So you would be aiming for your first level of HW at 6th level and can easily fit in EWM any time after that. The ranks in Knowledge(Geography) mean you will want your 5th level to be Ranger. You will want more feats to get Karmic Strike added in so maybe Fighter 2 instead of Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1.

So Human Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 / Ranger +2 / Horizon Walker / Exotic Weapon Master (capped with either more levels of Fighter, Ranger, or throwing in Barbarian) would work well.
You get the needed endurance feat via Ranger 3.
You get feats at: 1, 1, 1(Track), 2, 3, 3, 5(Endurance), 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18. That is 12 feats(13 if your 19-20th levels are more Fighter).
You will want: The bonus feats(Track and Endurance) since they are fixed, your prerequisites(Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus), your core(Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and Karmic Strike with their prerequisites Combat Expertise and Dodge). So that is 9 feats. After 9th level you would need to come up with more feats for those last 3-4 feat slots. Maybe Power Attack.

Alternatively start with Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger +2. This will shift your feats back a slot but gives you Rage 1/day which can be increased with the Extra Rage feat to 3/day.

[eggynack]

OK. The ideal route then is to stick with the Guisarme untill i get the exotic feat?
Probably, yeah. Guisarmes are sweet. You lose the adjacent threat range thing, but it's not all that clear that that utility is even worth a feat. There's a better chance that it is in this relatively book restricted game though, given that you're not going to have as many powerful alternatives. You're working with a lot of choices that are pretty reasonable here, and none are all that bad. Worst case scenario is you wind up marginally less optimal. Granted, the margins are important when you're dealing with things at this power level, but it's still not going to make or break anything.

[Lendário]

You can have as many classes as you have levels you just need your base classes(prestige classes not included) to be relatively close in level(IF and only IF your DM is using the almost never used multiclass xp penalties).

New material from Complete Warrior that is good for a Spiked Chain wielder:
Exotic Weapon Master PrC
Karmic Strike feat

Prerequisites needed for the prestige classes
HW: 8 ranks in Knowledge(Geography), Endurance feat
EWM: BAB +6, 3 ranks in Craft(Weapon Smithing), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus
So you would be aiming for your first level of HW at 6th level and can easily fit in EWM any time after that. The ranks in Knowledge(Geography) mean you will want your 5th level to be Ranger. You will want more feats to get Karmic Strike added in so maybe Fighter 2 instead of Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1.

So Human Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 / Ranger +2 / Horizon Walker / Exotic Weapon Master (capped with either more levels of Fighter, Ranger, or throwing in Barbarian) would work well.
You get the needed endurance feat via Ranger 3.
You get feats at: 1, 1, 1(Track), 2, 3, 3, 5(Endurance), 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18. That is 12 feats(13 if your 19-20th levels are more Fighter).
You will want: The bonus feats(Track and Endurance) since they are fixed, your prerequisites(Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus), your core(Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and Karmic Strike with their prerequisites Combat Expertise and Dodge). So that is 9 feats. After 9th level you would need to come up with more feats for those last 3-4 feat slots. Maybe Power Attack.

Alternatively start with Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger +2. This will shift your feats back a slot but gives you Rage 1/day which can be increased with the Extra Rage feat to 3/day.

This looks good, i'm going to roll like this.
Two questions through.

Does Karmic Strike works with Combat Reflexes?
Also, what kind of armor should i aim to use?

[OldTrees1]

This looks good, i'm going to roll like this.
Two questions through.

Does Karmic Strike works with Combat Reflexes?
Also, what kind of armor should i aim to use?

Yes! Combat Reflexes is a force multiplier for Karmic Strike. Karmic Strike is not so impressive without Combat Reflexes, so take Combat Reflexes first(it is probably your best feat out of the lot).

Chain Shirt -> Mithral Breastplate is usually a good choice unless your Dex get above 20. You only lose out on 3 AC relative to Mithral Fullplate but you get a bunch of goodies(Combat Reflexes gets capped at +5 rather than +3, You can move at full speed, and You have no penalties on skills)

[Lendário]

Yes! Combat Reflexes is a force multiplier for Karmic Strike. Karmic Strike is not so impressive without Combat Reflexes, so take Combat Reflexes first(it is probably your best feat out of the lot).

Chain Shirt -> Mithral Breastplate is usually a good choice unless your Dex get above 20. You only lose out on 3 AC relative to Mithral Fullplate but you get a bunch of goodies(Combat Reflexes gets capped at +5 rather than +3, You can move at full speed, and You have no penalties on skills)

Awesome.
Also forgot to ask, how should my attributes look like with 30 point buy?

[OldTrees1]

Awesome.
Also forgot to ask, how should my attributes look like with 30 point buy?

It depends on what you are looking for.
You are going to be using Strength to attack, damage, and Trip. The important factor there is Trip vs strong monsters. So a minimum of 14 but you do want to boost it either with point buy, rage, items, and/or level ups.
You are going to be using Dexterity as a force multiplier via Combat Reflexes (and as Stealth?). A 14 minimum but boost it with items later.
You need an Intelligence of 13+ for Combat Expertise for Improved Trip. Boosting it to 14 would not be bad but not a high priority.
You will want a higher Constitution bonus than normal since you are using mostly d8 HD rather than d10. So I would say a 14 or a 16.
Wisdom and Charisma don't do much for you on their own. You will probably want a minimum of an 11 Wisdom to use wands of Cure Light Wounds but other than that there are just there to boost some skills(Diplomacy, Listen, Survival?, and Spot) and there is not much of a difference between a +1 and a -1.

A (Str/Con/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha) of 14/14/14/13/11/08 would cost 26 points so there are 4 left outstanding. So 16/14/14/13/11/08 sounds like a good plan. A 15/14/14/14/12/08 is a decent alternative. You could also go 16/15/14/14/08/08 or 17/14/14/13/08/08 and use a +4 Wis item to unlock wands or a 16/15/14/13/09/08 for a +2 Wis item to unlock.

[Lendário]

It depends on what you are looking for.
You are going to be using Strength to attack, damage, and Trip. The important factor there is Trip vs strong monsters. So a minimum of 14 but you do want to boost it either with point buy, rage, items, and/or level ups.
You are going to be using Dexterity as a force multiplier via Combat Reflexes (and as Stealth?). A 14 minimum but boost it with items later.
You need an Intelligence of 13+ for Combat Expertise for Improved Trip. Boosting it to 14 would not be bad but not a high priority.
You will want a higher Constitution bonus than normal since you are using mostly d8 HD rather than d10. So I would say a 14 or a 16.
Wisdom and Charisma don't do much for you on their own. You will probably want a minimum of an 11 Wisdom to use wands of Cure Light Wounds but other than that there are just there to boost some skills(Diplomacy, Listen, Survival?, and Spot) and there is not much of a difference between a +1 and a -1.

A (Str/Con/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha) of 14/14/14/13/11/08 would cost 26 points so there are 4 left outstanding. So 16/14/14/13/11/08 sounds like a good plan. A 15/14/14/14/12/08 is a decent alternative. You could also go 16/15/14/14/08/08 or 17/14/14/13/08/08 and use a +4 Wis item to unlock wands or a 16/15/14/13/09/08 for a +2 Wis item to unlock.

I see.
The first alternative looks good. Low WIS on a Ranger woud probably be bad, the group will most likely expect me to track.
I know there is a Barbarian Class that would allow me to skip INT. But oh well, guess i will be needing magic items to increase my STR to Trip big guys.
Thanks for your time sir!

[OldTrees1]

I see.
The first alternative looks good. Low WIS on a Ranger woud probably be bad, the group will most likely expect me to track.
I know there is a Barbarian Class that would allow me to skip INT. But oh well, guess i will be needing magic items to increase my STR to Trip big guys.
Thanks for your time sir!

Your Intelligence is the important one for giving you the ability to track. While Wisdom is the ability modifier of the check, your Intelligence is giving you the skill points for ranks in Survival. Ultimately training(ranks) trump talent(Wis).

There is a Barbarian Alternate Class Feature that allows you to skip Combat Expertise for getting Improved Trip but it is not in your listed sources(It is in Unearthed Arcana) and you would still need Combat Expertise for Karmic Strike.

But yes, the 15/14/14/14/12/08 is the one I would prefer too.

[Lendário]

You can have as many classes as you have levels you just need your base classes(prestige classes not included) to be relatively close in level(IF and only IF your DM is using the almost never used multiclass xp penalties).

New material from Complete Warrior that is good for a Spiked Chain wielder:
Exotic Weapon Master PrC
Karmic Strike feat

Prerequisites needed for the prestige classes
HW: 8 ranks in Knowledge(Geography), Endurance feat
EWM: BAB +6, 3 ranks in Craft(Weapon Smithing), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus
So you would be aiming for your first level of HW at 6th level and can easily fit in EWM any time after that. The ranks in Knowledge(Geography) mean you will want your 5th level to be Ranger. You will want more feats to get Karmic Strike added in so maybe Fighter 2 instead of Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1.

So Human Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 / Ranger +2 / Horizon Walker / Exotic Weapon Master (capped with either more levels of Fighter, Ranger, or throwing in Barbarian) would work well.
You get the needed endurance feat via Ranger 3.
You get feats at: 1, 1, 1(Track), 2, 3, 3, 5(Endurance), 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18. That is 12 feats(13 if your 19-20th levels are more Fighter).
You will want: The bonus feats(Track and Endurance) since they are fixed, your prerequisites(Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus), your core(Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and Karmic Strike with their prerequisites Combat Expertise and Dodge). So that is 9 feats. After 9th level you would need to come up with more feats for those last 3-4 feat slots. Maybe Power Attack.

Alternatively start with Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger +2. This will shift your feats back a slot but gives you Rage 1/day which can be increased with the Extra Rage feat to 3/day.

I had a day to read more and think about this.
So i wanted to ask you guys about alternatives.

How significant would be for me to go all Figther/EWP?
If i understand correctly, the Ranger levels only serve the porpuse of getting the requirements for Horizon Walker, right?
Maybe it's silly but, roleplay wise i feel silly taking Ranger and not using Bows or TWF.
How significant is the loss of HW in this build? Is the Teleportation ability the main thing?

If i go full figther, i'd have better bab, AC by using Heavy Armor and HP vs More Skill Points and the teleportation. Is that it?

Remember, i can use Core Books and Complete Warrior only. No SRD.

[razorback]

I had a day to read more and think about this.
So i wanted to ask you guys about alternatives.

How significant would be for me to go all Figther/EWP?
If i understand correctly, the Ranger levels only serve the porpuse of getting the requirements for Horizon Walker, right?
Maybe it's silly but, roleplay wise i feel silly taking Ranger and not using Bows or TWF.
How significant is the loss of HW in this build? Is the Teleportation ability the main thing?

If i go full figther, i'd have better bab, AC by using Heavy Armor and HP vs More Skill Points and the teleportation. Is that it?

Remember, i can use Core Books and Complete Warrior only. No SRD.
You can still use either bows or TWF.
I've used a Horizon Tripper in a previous game and am running a modified version (more books open) currently and they are lots of fun.
You don't get a better BAB since you're using full BAB classes thought the build. Ranger is used to qualify for HW and you loose out on the teleportation plus some other benefits that from the various levels. Potions of Enlarge Person (correctly priced) are your friend. IMO, the Horizon Tripper is as strong a melee as a straight fighter, with pros and cons for either, set up for tripping with more in and out of combat options available.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Horizon Walker has full base attack, and none of its abilities are affected by armour. You don't gain any BAB or armour from going fighter over HW, you lose 2 skill points/level (and skill bonuses), and you gain 1 hp/level.

Yes, HW is an important part of the build, and it's not a good idea to cut it. Get at least 6 levels.

[OldTrees1]

I had a day to read more and think about this.
So i wanted to ask you guys about alternatives.

How significant would be for me to go all Figther/EWP?
If i understand correctly, the Ranger levels only serve the porpuse of getting the requirements for Horizon Walker, right?
Maybe it's silly but, roleplay wise i feel silly taking Ranger and not using Bows or TWF.
How significant is the loss of HW in this build? Is the Teleportation ability the main thing?

If i go full figther, i'd have better bab, AC by using Heavy Armor and HP vs More Skill Points and the teleportation. Is that it?

Remember, i can use Core Books and Complete Warrior only. No SRD.

Considering alternatives is good.

Rangers are just warriors that are familiar with Nature. There are numerous appropriate weapon styles beyond the 2 listed in the PHB. There is even mechanical support for 5 more combat styles(outside of your sources though). This may or may not affect whether you still feel silly roleplay wise. Also you can always think of your feats as your primary combat style and ranged as a backup combat style(you ought to carry a bow anyways even as a full fighter).

HW adds Teleporting and Tremorsense. The more skill points would also come with better skill lists. You would gain the ability to observe, sneak, track, and diplomacy. Given your limited number of options/notable features, losing these 5 things may or may not be a significant decrease in your opinion.

Ranger serves to get you into HW, gives you more skill points, and the ability to learn observing, sneaking, and tracking(but not diplomacy).

If you go full Fighter you will not have better BAB(ranger is Full BAB) nor will it give you better armor(Mithral Breastplate is the ideal for Combat Reflexes Fighters and both builds can put on Fullplate when they need to) but you will get +1hp/HD and more Fighter feats(although your limited sources means several of these will be terrible).

So given your limited sources I would not advise going full Fighter/EWP. I think the comparable alternative would be Fighter/Ranger multiclass -> EWP.

[Lendário]

Ok, good so HW is better then straight Figther. But i stumbled upon another choice!

Hear me out
I was locked into Complete Warrior because i was going Figther. But, if i go "Cleric" i can use Complete Divine.

So i'm thinking...What if i go Favored Soul worshiping Kossuth? His weapon is the Spiked Chain!
Would that be better? I get wings instead of the door and spell casting!

What do you guys think?


Sorry for changing focus so much but, being a new player i'm reading and brainstorming. Never been so excited to play rpg like this before.

[OldTrees1]

Ok, good so HW is better then straight Figther. But i stumbled upon another choice!

Hear me out
I was locked into Complete Warrior because i was going Figther. But, if i go "Cleric" i can use Complete Divine.

So i'm thinking...What if i go Favored Soul worshiping Kossuth? His weapon is the Spiked Chain!
Would that be better? I get wings instead of the door and spell casting!

What do you guys think?


Sorry for changing focus so much but, being a new player i'm reading and brainstorming. Never been so excited to play rpg like this before.
Wait, so you are limited to CORE + 1 of the Complete books?

Your goal seems to be a spiked chain warrior. If you go "Fighter" + Complete Warrior then you get EWM, Karmic Strike, and possibly Door & Tremorsense. If you go "Cleric" + Complete Divine then you get Wings and Spellcasting. The "Fighter" option is more skilled with the spiked chain(EWM + Karmic Strike) and the "Cleric" option has more support in other things (casting does a lot of different things). Overall the "Cleric" option will be stronger but will not be as skilled with the spiked chain. Which is a more valuable build depends on you.

[Lendário]

Wait, so you are limited to CORE + 1 of the Complete books?

Your goal seems to be a spiked chain warrior. If you go "Fighter" + Complete Warrior then you get EWM, Karmic Strike, and possibly Door & Tremorsense. If you go "Cleric" + Complete Divine then you get Wings and Spellcasting. The "Fighter" option is more skilled with the spiked chain(EWM + Karmic Strike) and the "Cleric" option has more support in other things (casting does a lot of different things). Overall the "Cleric" option will be stronger but will not be as skilled with the spiked chain. Which is a more valuable build depends on you.

Yes.
Not all Completes through, just the ones printed in Portuguese ( i'm Brazilian )
I think there are five in total.
I avoided the Cleric itself for being op. But i just discovered the Favored Soul, who is way less powerfull from what i read.

What a 30 point build Favored Soul with the Spiked Chain would look like stat and featwise?
Straight up 20 levels of FS?

[OldTrees1]

Yes.
Not all Completes through, just the ones printed in Portuguese ( i'm Brazilian )
I think there are five in total.
I avoided the Cleric itself for being op. But i just discovered the Favored Soul, who is way less powerfull from what i read.

What a 30 point build Favored Soul with the Spiked Chain would look like stat and featwise?
Straight up 20 levels of FS?

You would want a Charisma of at least 15 which will be boosted by your +1/4 levels*. Other than that you have the same limitations as the Fighter did but will not have the +1/4 levels boost to Strength*. Your desired minimum (S/D/Con/I/W/Cha) looks like 14/14/14/13/08/15 which is 31 points. So you would probably settle for either 14/14/12/14/08/15 or 14/14/14/14/08/14.

*You could rely on +WisCha items instead and use the +1/4 levels on Strength instead. In that case you could have a starting WisdomCharisma as low as 13 but 14 is a safer bet. This is a risky alternative though.

Feats would look like:
H Combat Reflexes, 1st Combat Expertise, 3rd Improved Trip
After that maybe go Power Attack + Cleave or dive into casting feats since you have exhausted the decent spiked chain feats(given your limited sources).

[razorback]

One thing to consider is that the DM is instating some homebrew rules to control the spellcasting and it's low magic.
Any idea what the rules are?

[Lendário]

One thing to consider is that the DM is instating some homebrew rules to control the spellcasting and it's low magic.
Any idea what the rules are?

As far as i know is more directed to Arcane and Clerics using Divine Metamagic.

[Lendário]

You would want a Charisma of at least 15 which will be boosted by your +1/4 levels*. Other than that you have the same limitations as the Fighter did but will not have the +1/4 levels boost to Strength*. Your desired minimum (S/D/Con/I/W/Cha) looks like 14/14/14/13/08/15 which is 31 points. So you would probably settle for either 14/14/12/14/08/15 or 14/14/14/14/08/14.

*You could rely on +Wis items instead and use the +1/4 levels on Strength instead. In that case you could have a starting Wisdom as low as 13 but 14 is a safer bet. This is a risky alternative though.

Feats would look like:
H Combat Reflexes, 1st Combat Expertise, 3rd Improved Trip
After that maybe go Power Attack + Cleave or dive into casting feats since you have exhausted the decent spiked chain feats(given your limited sources).

I see.
I still use WIS for Spell Casting in conjuction with CHA then? So the idea is to pump WIS with lvls and STR with items for better Tripping, or the other way around.
If i convince DM to allow me to play a Lesser Aasimar i could do better through. Hm...

[OldTrees1]

I see.
I still use WIS for Spell Casting in conjuction with CHA then? So the idea is to pump WIS with lvls and STR with items for better Tripping, or the other way around.
If i convince DM to allow me to play a Lesser Aasimar i could do better through. Hm...

Oh, oops that was a Typo. It meant Cha where is said Wis. While Favored Souls use both Charisma and Wisdom when casting, they only need Charisma to cast. Since you are already stretched thin you should just ignore Wisdom entirely. This means your DCs will be low but you usually don't need DCs for buff spells and restoration magic. (Although a Lesser Aasimar's +2Cha with no drawbacks would help reach your desired minimum rather than having to settle)

[Lendário]

Oh, oops that was a Typo. It meant Cha where is said Wis. While Favored Souls use both Charisma and Wisdom when casting, they only need Charisma to cast. Since you are already stretched thin you should just ignore Wisdom entirely. This means your DCs will be low but you usually don't need DCs for buff spells and restoration magic. (Although a Lesser Aasimar's +2Cha with no drawbacks would help reach your desired minimum rather than having to settle)

So basically if Lesser Aasimar;

14/14/12/14/12/16 or 14/14/14/14/10/16

Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
+ Casting Feats

1+/4 goes to STR and Item pump CHA.

That's it?

[Vrakk]

I may have missed this being suggested already but I would recommend a 1 level cleric dip. Follow a go that grants the Strength domain (Kord) to gain access to enlarge person from the Strength domain. Being Large with a Spike Chain is crazy awesome at level 2. I love 20 foot reach. A couple of Pearls of Power (1st level) from the DMG allows you to use Enlarge Person more often. It also allows you to use your turn undead attempts with the Divine Feats in Complete Warrior. I have used Diving Vigor heavily. I know it's not considered powerful but the extra speed and hitpoints can come in handy.

[OldTrees1]

So basically if Lesser Aasimar;

14/14/12/14/12/16 or 14/14/14/14/10/16

Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
+ Casting Feats

1+/4 goes to STR and Item pump CHA.

That's it?

Yep. That's it given your available sources.