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View Full Version : NEW Way to defeat Pun-Pun.



open_source.exe
2007-04-30, 11:10 AM
Now that I have your attention,

What do you think of my house rule:

I house ruled that the benefits of the Rapid Reload Feat apply to the renaissance firearms in the DMG.

With rapid reload, the reload time for the pistol is a free action, and the reload time for a musket is one move action.

If you have selected this feat for a pistol, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) action as you could attack if you were using a bow.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-04-30, 11:20 AM
I dont't think that that would make sense. Even the best soldiers in the 1800's could only fire once every 10 seconds. ANd those were the elites.

Grey Paladin
2007-04-30, 11:40 AM
Try 30, average was one shot per a minute

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-04-30, 11:43 AM
No, normal soliders, if properly drilled, could get up to 3 sh/min

XtheYeti
2007-04-30, 11:52 AM
wow, that would not be ralistic but neither is spell casting, this could lead to some interesting things

KIDS
2007-04-30, 11:52 AM
Oh my god! Pun-Pun has to be warned about this treachery! Quick, my brethren!

Anyways, while it might not be totally reasonable or realistic, I find it just fine to be allowed with firearms (selected the same way). I doubt that composite longbowmen fired a shot every 2 seconds either so....

If it doesn't unbalance someone's game, it seems ok but isn't strictly necessary.

storybookknight
2007-04-30, 11:53 AM
Yeah, you're not gonna get pistol full attacks until you start seeing revolvers, oh, I dunno, sometime past the american revolution? During 1776 they were still using flintlocks and Minie balls, I think.

jindra34
2007-04-30, 11:55 AM
mgiht i ask what pun-pun is?

Khoran
2007-04-30, 12:04 PM
mgiht i ask what pun-pun is?
He's Min-Maxing to the Nth Degree. Through the RAW, he was able to get infinate Stats (he's able to boost them indefintly) and become a god. I'll see if I can dig up the post.

Here we go: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801

Indon
2007-04-30, 12:20 PM
Yeah, you're not gonna get pistol full attacks until you start seeing revolvers, oh, I dunno, sometime past the american revolution? During 1776 they were still using flintlocks and Minie balls, I think.

I'd say it's about as reasonable as getting full attacks with a crossbow.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-30, 12:26 PM
Why is a pistol slower to load than a musket anyway? Why does the pistol do less damage for that matter.

open_source.exe
2007-04-30, 12:59 PM
I have a player who is asking for this houserule so he can play a duel-wielding cleric (with 2 pistols), but he doesn't want to fire once every every 3 turns.

Dr._Weird
2007-04-30, 01:12 PM
Buy lots of guns. Shoot one pair, drop 'em, pull out another pair, repeat. You can pick them up and reload them later.

Problem solved, and without the need for the ridiculous house rule.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-30, 01:20 PM
If he wants to play a character with two pistols he should play in a setting where it makes sense. There are primative automatic pistols if you only want to increase the tech level by 100 years. Or just get a Wizard to do it.

IonizedChicken
2007-04-30, 03:37 PM
What's this talk about realism?

You're saying it's perfectly realistic for someone to make 1 shot per second with a crossbow?

DND isn't about realism. It's about stuff that rocks. And, yes, full attacking with a pistol would rock.

Demented
2007-04-30, 04:42 PM
Full attacking with a flintlock pistol.
Hard to say if it's badass if it can't be imagined....

Wardog
2007-04-30, 05:27 PM
Why is a pistol slower to load than a musket anyway? Why does the pistol do less damage for that matter.

Gunpowder doesn't burn up instantly.

In a short-barreled firearm (e.g. a pistol), the bullet may leave the barrel before all the powder has burnt up; any remaining powder is wasted.

Also, a musket is heavier than a pistol, and so is less affected by recoil. That means you could put more powder in than a pistol before the recoil makes it too difficult or inaccurate to reload.


I can't think of any realistic reason why a pistol would be slower to load than a musket. If anything, I would have thought it would be quicker, because it will be shorter and so less cumbersome to handle.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-30, 08:03 PM
I have a player who is asking for this houserule so he can play a duel-wielding cleric (with 2 pistols), but he doesn't want to fire once every every 3 turns.

Okay, but scale back firearms then (the rules as presented don't really make sense beyond abstractions of fluff)

Pistol; Simple Weapon; Ranged (1h); 1d6/x3; Range 60 ft.
Special: Requires a move action to reload, rapid reload reduces this to a free action.

Rifle; Simple Weapon; Ranged (2h); 1d8/x3; Range 60 ft.
Special: Requires a standard action to reload, rapid reload reduces this to a swift action.

Firearms shouldn't be exotic, they are exceedingly easy to use. Also, they shouldn't do as much damage as they're listed for; early pistols weren't very strong (you were more likely to die of an infection from poor medical care after being shot than you were to die from being shot).

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-04-30, 08:04 PM
He's right. A usual. It takes as much skill to point and shoot a gun as to point and shoot a crossbow.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-30, 11:43 PM
Keep in mind, one round is six seconds, not one. So one shot per round is ten shots per minute. That's WAY faster than even the elite troops of the American Revolution. You wouldn't be able to see this sort of rate of fire until Civil War era.

Of course, not even this could hope to scratch Pun-Pun, who has infinite HPS, DR, and could obliterate the army before they even got their first shot off...

Epic_Wizard
2007-05-01, 12:53 AM
I would also like to point out that those "Muskets" use the standard rules for hit and miss as a crossbow where as at the time period it was perfectly possible for 2 people dueling 10 feet away to have perfect aim and STILL miss completely.

If you think I am jokeing go look it up. No Rifleing = next to no accuracy.

Probably the only reason the British lined up their troops like that was that next to a guy was the only place that his bullet WASN'T going to go. Also if you have enough people fireing at one target then maybe the average of the fire will be ontarget...

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-01, 01:10 AM
I would also like to point out that those "Muskets" use the standard rules for hit and miss as a crossbow where as at the time period it was perfectly possible for 2 people dueling 10 feet away to have perfect aim and STILL miss completely.

If you think I am jokeing go look it up. No Rifleing = next to no accuracy.

Probably the only reason the British lined up their troops like that was that next to a guy was the only place that his bullet WASN'T going to go. Also if you have enough people fireing at one target then maybe the average of the fire will be ontarget...

When you're firing at a formation almost a hundred yards across and fifty deep... it's kinda hard to miss. What we like to call a 'target rich environment'. Napoleonic era combat was massed troops because the previous generation of war-winning was done with massed phalanx, which was almost identical except it had spears or pikes rather than muskets. It worked in the past, so it works now.

Mewtarthio
2007-05-01, 01:19 AM
Why is everyone talking about historical accuracy? This is DnD! We have swords that burst into flame and go through armor! We have weird double weapons that somehow don't hurt the weilder! We can become smarter by reading magic books! We can teleport with the appropriate cape! We can build clay sculptures that come to life and kill people! Eberron has freaking robots, for Pelor's sake! What's wrong with rapid-fire flintlock pistols?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-01, 01:28 AM
Why is everyone talking about historical accuracy? This is DnD! We have swords that burst into flame and go through armor! We have weird double weapons that somehow don't hurt the weilder! We can become smarter by reading magic books! We can teleport with the appropriate cape! We can build clay sculptures that come to life and kill people! Eberron has freaking robots, for Pelor's sake! What's wrong with rapid-fire flintlock pistols?

Because he's cutting MULTIPLE rounds off of reload time rather than cutting them down a step. They're freekin' TOUCH ATTACK weapons that do fairly obnoxious damage. They got to have SOME kind of downside to them...

Vyker
2007-05-01, 01:46 AM
I have a player who is asking for this houserule so he can play a duel-wielding cleric (with 2 pistols), but he doesn't want to fire once every every 3 turns.

Skip the pistols. Take a page from Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/05/19) and dual-wield wands.

If he doesn't like how wands look, just take a wand... put a pistol grip on it... and BAM! Magitech pistol.

paigeoliver
2007-05-01, 05:34 AM
In my games pistols could never be reloaded in combat at all. Characters who wanted to full attack would just get multiple pistols, quick draw and toss them as they went. There is a Musketeers type 3rd party rulebook "All For One" that has some decent gun rules in it.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 05:41 AM
Because he's cutting MULTIPLE rounds off of reload time rather than cutting them down a step. They're freekin' TOUCH ATTACK weapons that do fairly obnoxious damage. They got to have SOME kind of downside to them...

They are normal ranged weapons that deal slightly more damage than normal. They are definitely not worth reloading as a standard action. They aren't even worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (though, to be frank, few weapons are).

No, I think some people just like European history too much.

Caelestion
2007-05-01, 05:58 AM
You mean some people are more interested in verisimultude than others? That's hardly a crime, you know.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 06:59 AM
Well, in a game in which you wield Greatswords, fire Crossbows faster than semi-automatics, run about in full plate, attack people with flaming swords, can jump as much as 10 feet into the air without a running start (or 40 feet horizontally)...
I could go on you know.

The point is, DND is already grossly unrealistic. As such, arguing that full attacking with pistols is unrealistic and that's why it shouldn't be introduced to DND is just silly.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-01, 07:58 AM
Well, in a game in which you wield Greatswords,

What? The only problem with wielding a Greatsword in DnD is most pictures of them.


fire Crossbows faster than semi-automatics,

You can't. You can only loose them as fast as semi-automatics, but DnD's rules about semiautomatics fire way too slowly due to the attacks limited by level thing. Fully automatics fire faster than anything in dnd.


run about in full plate,

Sorry? Full plate reduces your run speed in DnD. Why should it be any worse? Full plate isn't like dressing yourself up in cardboard boxes. Full plate is the pinacle of armour technology, you don't need cranes to lift you onto your horse while wearing it.


attack people with flaming swords,

This one is actually magic. But at least it's internally consistant magic.


can jump as much as 10 feet into the air without a running start (or 40 feet horizontally)...

Uhm... Have you actually looked at the 3.5 high jump rules?


The point is, DND is already grossly unrealistic. As such, arguing that full attacking with pistols is unrealistic and that's why it shouldn't be introduced to DND is just silly.

Well, in my opinion, if DnD is so unrealistic, why bother using realistic firearms. Why not give your cleric six-shooters? If you want a game where it's feasable to fire two-guns like that then why force that onto guns that it wouldn't work with when there are guns that it would work with. If you have magic then why force realistic firearms? If I was a wizard with Craft (Alchemy) and I needed an army then I'd give them gunpowder weapons. If I'm expected to have Int 18 then I should be able to invent stuff above the tech level.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 09:40 AM
What? The only problem with wielding a Greatsword in DnD is most pictures of them.

Eh. I had strange notions about medieval weaponry. Thankfully, that got cleared up.



You can't. You can only loose them as fast as semi-automatics, but DnD's rules about semiautomatics fire way too slowly due to the attacks limited by level thing. Fully automatics fire faster than anything in dnd.
Well, with Rapid Reload you can reload a crossbow as a free action. If reloading a Crossbow takes no time at all, it defies the laws of physics (which just furthers my point). Otherwise, you're going to loose Crossbow bolts faster than fire a semi-automatic weapon (that doesn't need reloading).
Also, what do fully automatic weapons have to do with this? I did say semi.



Sorry? Full plate reduces your run speed in DnD. Why should it be any worse? Full plate isn't like dressing yourself up in cardboard boxes. Full plate is the pinacle of armour technology, you don't need cranes to lift you onto your horse while wearing it.
Eh. Sorry. Like I said, strange notions about medievel weapons/armor.



This one is actually magic. But at least it's internally consistant magic.
It depends. Why are you harmed by the flaming swords of others but not by your own? Yes, I know, it's magic, but it still doesn't seem internally consistent.



Uhm... Have you actually looked at the 3.5 high jump rules?
Using the feat Leap of the Clouds (PHB2, I believe, and almost no requirements) DCs for jumps without running starts are not doubled. A DC 40 check is something even a 10th level character can make.

Caelestion
2007-05-01, 04:36 PM
So a highish-level person with an appropriate feat and max ranks in Jump can jump 10 feet in the air in a fantasy world. Geez - whatever next!!

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-01, 06:34 PM
Just as an aside... running around in field plate is not difficult. If it's fitted properly, you can hardly feel the extra sixty or so pounds, as it is all evenly distributed over your body. Been there, done that on an SCA field.

Heck, the Knights, just to prove a point, out Jazzersized the Jazzersizers... (excercise by jumping around to Jazz music...) in august... in Texas.

Plate doesn't hamper movement NEARLY as much as many people seem to think it does, as long as it is fitted properly.

Likewise, while I perfer lightfighting and archery to heavier weapons, there are those who are capable of wielding large two-handed swords and are very effective in combat.

And a Crossbow would be fired as swiftly as a semi-automatic gun in D&D. One shot per action. The problem is that you aren't talking about cartrige loading semi-auto guns. You're talking about flintlock pistols, which were FAR harder to load. It required you to manually insert powder, wad, ball, keep them all oriented properly as you aimed, added a bit extra powder in the pan, then pulled the trigger. This is FAR more involved than pulling the string back with a bolt nock between your fingers to rapid-reload a crossbow. The guns which could fire as fast as a Crossbow aren't invented until the Colt .45 in the Wild West era, post Civil War. It's like comparing a B-24 to a Stealth Bomber... several quantum leaps in technology advances.

The houserule, as stated, is broke. However, if you want to break your game, go ahead. Just don't expect many people to agre with it.

Caelestion
2007-05-01, 06:41 PM
Entirely off-topic so do forgive me, but Shneekey's comment about quantum leaps reminded me of this very recent cartoon at Irregular Webcomic (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1554.html).

IonizedChicken
2007-05-02, 03:42 AM
So a highish-level person with an appropriate feat and max ranks in Jump can jump 10 feet in the air in a fantasy world. Geez - whatever next!!
:S My whole point is that this is a fantasy world. I'm not complaining.

KoDT69
2007-05-02, 08:22 AM
Just a note on the crossbow and rapid reload feat...
Sure it says you can reload the crossbow as a free action, but if you read the Actions in Combat section of the DMG or the SRD, it states you get only ONE free OR swift action in a given round standard. There would have to be extra magic items, effects, or circumstances in any given round to allow extra free actions... or do I need Hukt onn Fonix?
My real question though is... why a flintlock pistol? Seriously, it takes about as much time to just load a small cannon that could easily be pushed on a small cart into combat, and would do loads more damage. I agree with the revolver idea. It's not that much of a stretch to imagine that with repeating crossbows in the Arms and Equipment guide (yes it looks like it has a clip like most modern guns) that a revolver is too far out in left field. For that matter you could always attach a gallon of alchemical fire juice to a musket with a hand pump and a torch mounted on the end for a flame-thrower. That would be even more classy! :smallbiggrin:

Jayabalard
2007-05-02, 08:24 AM
I find the title to incorrect and the house rule suggested to be absurd.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-05-02, 08:13 PM
If you look at his first sentence, it is "now that i have your attention..."

Mewtarthio
2007-05-02, 11:00 PM
Sure it says you can reload the crossbow as a free action, but if you read the Actions in Combat section of the DMG or the SRD, it states you get only ONE free OR swift action in a given round standard. There would have to be extra magic items, effects, or circumstances in any given round to allow extra free actions... or do I need Hukt onn Fonix?

You get one immediate or swift action. Free actions are, well, free. It's noted that there may be limits (eg Only one sentence of speech per round), but if they'd intended for you to only be able to use rapid reload once per round, they'd have called it "swift."

KoDT69
2007-05-03, 06:55 AM
You're right, it's a Swift or Immediate, not Swift or Free... I post corrected :smallbiggrin: