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Koga
2007-04-30, 01:51 PM
Ok, The Koga is in a heavy magic campaign, and sense there's a fair number of alignment based spells. This could pose as a problem. And really the GM doesn't care what The Koga puts, just puts an alignment. But The Koga never really cared about alignment, only rping. So anything is fine. What would you think this guy would constitute as?

#1: He as well as all the other PCs are in the military. Unlike them however, this guy LIKES being in the military. And thinks it's civillians who are wrong and backward. He's misanthropic and sees civillians as brain-dead monkies who work simply to get ahold of some money so they can engage in more self indulgence. No desire to help thier community, just self-serving parasites.


#2: The belief seems to be the military is there to serve and protect. However, this character realizes that is a self-contradictory dogma. Those that serve do not protect, and those that protect do not serve. Sense we seem to be alot better at protecting, it is the non-state offical's responsibility to do thier part and serve. That includes being cooperative and not giving backtalk.

#3: He's not the most clever guy, when he was trying to get information on illegal weapons he whisperd to some people "hey, you wouldn't happen to know where I could get some illegal weapons would you? I'd be willing to pay alot of money!"

#4: Despite there being magic and guns, he uses poison. Because he's curious about how the chemichals will react in the human body. Death isn't his intention, neither is pain, but both are intreaguing aspects and suprises to the result of being poisoned. He wants to learn the full extent of how dangerous these weapons can be. As well as the weapons we are after by the terrorists. But once in the hands of the military he'll be able to findout won't he?

#5: Because of the general (albeit not unwarranted) distrust of the state, this guy has gone out of his way to sabatoge some people. Choosing just random people and poisoning thier drinks, to establish a red herring of "the terrorists are eveywhere!" so out of fear and ignorance, they'll cooperate and stop looking down on the state. Not to meation he gets to see upclose the effects of biological weapons: his specialty.

#6: Despite being very objective in views, he doesn't look at things in a good and evil perspective, more of a useful and useless perspective. Everyone has a duty, everyone is expected to follow that duty, failure to do so is punishable by summary execution.

#7: Despite how he'd like nothing more then to flipout and kill everyone in the room (theoreticaly then he'd kill the enemy), doing so would be counter-productive. Alot of workers would be needlessly slaughterd, not to meation the grovveling he'd have to hear from his supiriors afterward. He doesn't have cheese for that whine.

#8: Even though he's kindof smug and canniving, he's never particularly malice. It's just not in his character, and even if it were, he understands he's a weakling. He may be a poison-expert, but he has horrible physichal stats. Making him a walkng target for somebody, anybody's wrath.

#9: He doesn't get along with his comrades too well, but he does see them as useful to the cause, and as such gives them the respect of life and liberty. Most of his beef with them is thier lack of total submission to his will;

"We can't just go around asking questions and pointing guns to thier face, they're scared enough as it is seeing several highly trained soldiers in the same place."

"What do they have to be scared of? We're here for thier own good! I suppose they'd be less scared if we took away thier plumbing? Thier electrcity? Thier homless shelters? We go out of our way to give them life and hope and this is how they repay us, don't tell me how to do my job PRIVATE..."

#10: That's another thing. He always empahsizes on his team-mates lowrank, despite him being a private himself. Albeit he's a special ops private, and thinks this makes him supirior to others. It's not what the goverment thinks that validates his supirority, but the fact that they are almost as dense-headed as the civvilians!

#11: His ultimate goal is to create marshal law. If only out of fear and ignorance, everyone will do thier part for their community. We will be a utopia, one way or another...

#12: Just to prove a point, he once threw a gold coin, knowing that atleast one of the people who saw it would go and grab for it. Even though he openly said they would. Because it's in the simple-minded's nature to be self-serving. And that's what money is all about. Distanting yourself from family and friends in favor of establishing your own selfish rule. It turns you into a scavenging jackal, crawling in the mud, and this was perfect symbolism of that digging your fingers into the dirt trying to get that gold coin.

All in all he seems very distant from normal human emotions, doesn't understand social concepts too well, and has a supiority complex. And as you can tell from his distaste for opinionated or otherwise self-serving thoughts, and a distrust for consumerism as a whole.. He's an oldschool communist.

Khoran
2007-04-30, 02:02 PM
On the Ethical Scale, this guy is Lawful. Painfully so. As for Moral Alignment: He seems to be on the border between Neutral and Evil, or Evil with Neutral tendancies. His outlook is very grim, and from how you describe him, it sounds like he has no moral qualms about oppressing people to see that order is maintained. However, he also dosn't seem overly cruel at the same time.2q

KIDS
2007-04-30, 02:22 PM
I think that Lawful Neutral or True Neutral describes him best.
And oh, nice concept there. It was a good read.

Grey Watcher
2007-04-30, 02:27 PM
I'm going to second Khoran.

He's definitely Lawful, even his occaisional misuse and abuse of poisons and such is somewhat reckless and outside the bounds of Lawful behavior, his overall personality, outlook, motives, and views scream Lawful at the top of their lungs.

Good vs. Evil: Well, he's definitely not Good. Frightening, harming, and even killing innocents to prove a point is definitely non-Good behavior. I really can't call him on being Neutral or Evil, he dances along the border pretty neatly (he's cruelty isn't for cruelty's sake, even if it is somewhat self-serving in the end (aggrandizing the military, of which he's a part)).

I'd be inclined to call him Lawful Evil, but if I were the DM I could be talked into calling him Neutral, with the caveat that he's starting out dangerously close to slipping into full-blown Evil.

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-30, 02:30 PM
Er, evil with evil tendencies seems more like it. He considers sentient life completely expendable beyond the usefulness of having it around, yes? What exactly do you have to do to be evil if that isn't it?

Seems very Lawful Evil. He's got a big picture, and he's more than willing to trample whoever he needs to for it.

Koga
2007-04-30, 02:34 PM
lol, the GM's already talking to The Koga privately about it. XD

"I don't know what to call you, but please put something in your alignment, just not-good, cause that's deffinitely not it.

I want to say chaotic neutral, what with your gnack for stirring up panick and chaos... but I know that's your intention, so much as it is a motivation get people to do what you want them to do..."

Cocktail Umbrellas
2007-04-30, 03:16 PM
I'd say Lawful Neutral.

Lawful for sure in any case. With this description, I don't see how anyone could see him as chaotic, too much emphasis on duty

Everyone has a duty, everyone is expected to follow that duty, failure to do so is punishable by summary execution

and perhaps moreso:


His ultimate goal is to create marshal law

^_^

Neutral just because he seems to have some respect for life at this point (that bit about "respect of life and liberty") though he has more than a few evil tendencies. Lawful Neutral tinged with evil. Seems the kinda guy that would fit in with the folks of Acheron, so long as his tendencies to not fit in with a group aren't too ridiculous hehe ^_^ Aaaanyway that was off topic.

Neato character, good luck!

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-30, 03:30 PM
He's Neutral Evil;
He's on the border of Lawful because he's dedicated to martial law and the military, but his behavior shows that he isn't dedicated to order so much as power. Also, his dedication is secondary to his feelings of superiority.

He's as Evil as can be however, he's a total sociopath. He lives in an emotional vacuum and considers all other life inferior, he has a god complex and randomly poisons people to express his mastery over life.

Evil. Evil. Evil.

Lemur
2007-04-30, 03:30 PM
Lawful Evil, definitely. For most of the description, I could see the argument towards a more neutral alignment, but poisoning people to sow fear and indulge his curiosities? That's not the kind of thing you can do and avoid being evil.

Darkxarth
2007-04-30, 03:42 PM
He's Neutral Evil;
He's on the border of Lawful because he's dedicated to martial law and the military, but his behavior shows that he isn't dedicated to order so much as power. Also, his dedication is secondary to his feelings of superiority.

He's as Evil as can be however, he's a total sociopath. He lives in an emotional vacuum and considers all other life inferior, he has a god complex and randomly poisons people to express his mastery over life.

Evil. Evil. Evil.

I second this. He's Neutral Evil. Because although he's into duty and order, he has a chaotic side that balances it out.


he'd like nothing more then to flipout and kill everyone in the room

Choosing just random people and poisoning thier drinks
Those are Chaotic Evil acts, even if it is to "throw red herrings and suspicion" among the troops about terrorists.

And yes, I thought he was Neutral at first, but the more I read the more I realized that he was pure evil. Interesting character though.

Koga
2007-04-30, 03:54 PM
He's Neutral Evil;
He's on the border of Lawful because he's dedicated to martial law and the military, but his behavior shows that he isn't dedicated to order so much as power. Also, his dedication is secondary to his feelings of superiority.

He's as Evil as can be however, he's a total sociopath. He lives in an emotional vacuum and considers all other life inferior, he has a god complex and randomly poisons people to express his mastery over life.

Evil. Evil. Evil.
One of the players is saying that now too do to The Koga directly disregarding orders of a supirior officer. He doesn't know if he meant his orders (because he was under the impression we were all equal rank) or the letter we got.

If the latter, then that is subjective commandment. As long as we get the job done it shouldn't matter what we do..

If the former, then that was completely out of character lack of knowledge of the atmosphere. More then likely The Koga still would not have listend, but had tried harder to smooth-talk the commanding officer.

Koga
2007-04-30, 04:01 PM
Crap, he just realized The Koga is the only one who can't cast spells in this group...

You know maybe pissing everybody off wasn't such a good idea...:smallredface:


AH WELL! They wouldn't dare harm The Koga! Less they wanna become evil too. Mwahahah!

Don't know why this guy keeps friggin lecturing The Koga, his alignment is true neutral. TRUE NEUTRAL!

He should picking his nose, eating a burritto, and stepping off The Koga's grill!

PaladinBoy
2007-04-30, 04:37 PM
Lawful Evil.

The martial law bit and the everyone has a duty bit make me see him as Lawful.

The random poisonings? Evil. Through and through.

The_Werebear
2007-04-30, 04:43 PM
Very Lawful, with a few slips towards chaos. However, that is justifiable to law since his goals are lawful.

Evil out of convenience. He isn't evil for evil's sake, but evil because it is convenient and easy.

headwarpage
2007-04-30, 04:46 PM
Evil, without a doubt, for the reasons others have stated.

I'm going to say LE, but you could make a case for NE, depending on how you interpret the Law-Chaos axis. I would say that although he has some Chaotic urges (killing everybody in the room), the fact that he doesn't act on them because it wouldn't be practical makes him Lawful. He's just too calculating to be anything else, in my mind.

Alternately, you could say TN, based on the argument that he's a psychopath, and incapable of actually making ethical distinctions. As far as I can tell, it's roughly the same argument WotC uses to make animals Neutral.(Psychopath may not be the exact term I want, but my psych knowledge is limited, and you get the idea.) Not that you should actually do that, but I'm amused by the idea of a loophole like that in the cosmic balance of the alignment system.

SKarious
2007-04-30, 04:52 PM
I'd say Lawful Evil as well.
He believes in an ordered society, and puts great emphasis on rank = Lawful.
He considers others "expendable" and inferior, and doesn't hesitate to threaten or use them = Evil.
Even his "random" poisonings are done for a greater cause - increasing the power of the military.

definitely LE.

thorgrim29
2007-04-30, 04:52 PM
Well, he's a darksider for sure, the very exemple of more or less noble ideal twisted into evil, so neutral or or lawfull evil seem appropriate.

Jasdoif
2007-04-30, 05:03 PM
I would definitely say Lawful Evil. Here's the key points to my decision:


#1: He as well as all the other PCs are in the military. Unlike them however, this guy LIKES being in the military. And thinks it's civillians who are wrong and backward. He's misanthropic and sees civillians as brain-dead monkies who work simply to get ahold of some money so they can engage in more self indulgence. No desire to help thier community, just self-serving parasites.Suggests Lawful, as the military is generally disciplined, and the self-indulgence he loathes is not.


#5: Because of the general (albeit not unwarranted) distrust of the state, this guy has gone out of his way to sabatoge some people. Choosing just random people and poisoning thier drinks, to establish a red herring of "the terrorists are eveywhere!" so out of fear and ignorance, they'll cooperate and stop looking down on the state. Not to meation he gets to see upclose the effects of biological weapons: his specialty.Killing random people is Evil.


#6: Despite being very objective in views, he doesn't look at things in a good and evil perspective, more of a useful and useless perspective. Everyone has a duty, everyone is expected to follow that duty, failure to do so is punishable by summary execution."Everyone has a duty and must do it" is a Lawful view.


#7: Despite how he'd like nothing more then to flipout and kill everyone in the room (theoreticaly then he'd kill the enemy), doing so would be counter-productive. Alot of workers would be needlessly slaughterd, not to meation the grovveling he'd have to hear from his supiriors afterward. He doesn't have cheese for that whine.Lawful, his belief that workers are needed overriding his impulse to kill everyone.


#11: His ultimate goal is to create marshal law. If only out of fear and ignorance, everyone will do thier part for their community. We will be a utopia, one way or another...Lawful (since it establishes order) and Evil (since "out of fear and ignorance" indicates he doesn't care whether the people approve or benefit, quite the opposite of altruism).

Saph
2007-04-30, 05:30 PM
Lawful Evil, definitely. Just look at these two:


#5: Because of the general (albeit not unwarranted) distrust of the state, this guy has gone out of his way to sabatoge some people. Choosing just random people and poisoning thier drinks, to establish a red herring of "the terrorists are eveywhere!" so out of fear and ignorance, they'll cooperate and stop looking down on the state. Not to meation he gets to see upclose the effects of biological weapons: his specialty.

#6: Despite being very objective in views, he doesn't look at things in a good and evil perspective, more of a useful and useless perspective. Everyone has a duty, everyone is expected to follow that duty, failure to do so is punishable by summary execution.

He strikes me as almost a picture-perfect Lawful Evil character. I can see why some people might say Neutral Evil, but he's way too comfortable with authority and law to be merely neutral on the Law-Chaos axis.

- Saph

lsfreak
2007-04-30, 05:35 PM
This is one of those cases where the alignment system doesn't do a character justice :P Too many people seem to assume he's after power, I certainly don't see that as all.

I think that's probably biggest question: is he after power, or whether he's trying to better life as a whole (utopia at any cost). If it's the former I'd definitely argue evil; however, if it's to forward a goal of "utopia," I'd argue lawful neutral or even true neutral. I supposed it also depends on what martial law means - is martial law being put in place for the purpose, however covertly, to take advantage of the people, or protect and better them?


If only out of fear and ignorance, everyone will do thier part for their community.
Does this mean he would prefer out of feeling of duty, but ignorance would work just as well? I wouldn't immediately label this as evil, especially if it's that he'd prefer a sense of duty, and would label such a neutral.


Even though he's kindof smug and canniving, he's never particularly malice. It's just not in his character
I think this points to the neutral side of things as well. With the whole useful-useless view on morality, this definitely ties in.

I'm not sure the poison experimentation can be claimed as evil, though poisoning random people certainly can be.

Number 7 doesn't seem to fit in with the his other traits very well... maybe it's just me.

The big reason the D&D system doesn't cover this is that it fails to take into intention. If he's truly after bettering society, I'd say he's Lawful Neutral, or even True neutral if he's lost himself completely to the cause. Based purely on actions, he's undoubtedly Lawful Evil, but I definitely feel there's more to this character than can be described by D&D alignment.

Of course, maybe I'm off base and he really is after power :P

Koga
2007-04-30, 05:37 PM
The Koga is also unsastisfied with the effects of cyanide in the d20 srd.

The Koga knows a fair amount about chemistry. This is how cynaide should look.

Cyanide
Fortitude DC: 18
Innitial damage: 1d2 con damage and 1d2 wisdom damage.
Secondary damage: Deafness.

This is how it is.

Cynaide
Fortitude DC: 15
Innitial damage: 1d6 con damage.
Secondary damage: 2d6 con damage.

Cyanide really isn't all that threatning. It just messes up your metabolism and ability to throughly use your body.

LordRahl
2007-04-30, 05:37 PM
In my opinion this guy really can't get more evil. I define evil as treating other sentient beings as if they aren't an end in themselves, as if they have no will of their own, as if their only purpose is to serve your wants or needs. This guy obviously doesn't give a fig for anyone else's wants or needs, just as long as it's useful to him. Evil. On the law spectrum I'm not sure. He seems to think along lawful guidelines, but when it comes to acting he doesn't care about the law. In my opinion he's NE or CE and just deluding himself into thinking it's all for the greater good. When it comes down to it it's what you do that makes you good or evil/lawful or chaotic, not what you say or think.

Saph
2007-04-30, 05:40 PM
I'm not sure the poison experimentation can be claimed as evil, though poisoning random people certainly can be.

No, really? It can be claimed as evil? Ya think? :P

Honestly, if poisoning random innocent people DOESN'T put a person into the Evil camp, I'd hate to know what does. It's almost like Koga went out of his way to be over-the-top evil with that one.

- Saph

Koga
2007-04-30, 05:54 PM
Bleh, a sacrifice had to be made to get the people to submit to us officers. Someone had to die to make them scared and huddle together like sheep.


Unfourtanately... ehhh.... that didn't go as planned LOL...

Now everyone is acting like "nothing bad happend till the military showedup!"

And The Koga's thinking "crap! Why doesn't The Koga's plans ever work?! ; _ ;"

so now he's trying to use crappy psychological treatment.
"If you don't help us more people will die, do you want that to happen?! What if that was your son eh?! We carry the burden of these lives so you don't have too! All we ask is your cooperation!"

Yeah, The Koga can lay it on thick like butter. The players don't even know The Koga poisoned the guy, they just think he's taking advantage of the oppurtunity.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-30, 05:57 PM
Evil doesn't always have to be intentional;
If someone is so megomaniacal that they believe that everyone is inferior to them and may be sacrificed casually to serve some idea of Utopia that he invented: that is horribly evil. This is the thinking behind genocide.

Also, adding an article before your name ("The" Koga) is pretty evil.

Koga
2007-04-30, 05:59 PM
Well it's pretty much given The Koga is evil. Really now it's just a matter of law vs chaos. XP

EvilElitest
2007-04-30, 06:01 PM
The big reason the D&D system doesn't cover this is that it fails to take into intention. If he's truly after bettering society, I'd say he's Lawful Neutral, or even True neutral if he's lost himself completely to the cause. Based purely on actions, he's undoubtedly Lawful Evil, but I definitely feel there's more to this character than can be described by D&D alignment.

Of course, maybe I'm off base and he really is after power :

Intent is meanenless for making somebody good or neutral, only evil people are judge by intent, and that is only to make them evil, not visa versa. he is evil because of actions

Now he is Not
LG, Duh
NG, Duh
CG, no, you think?
LN, close but he uses evil methods and his view of humans is very evil
N, Nope, to focused on Law
CN, to law inclined
LE, Most likely, he is very lawful and belives in matail law, but he is by nature evil. Like the mummy guy from the Kenshin series
NE, possible, he borders those two aligments, but to much law to make him so, but he could easily become so
CE, nope
And being insane does not make you excused from aligments, BOVD makes that clear, you are only excused from aligments if you have an int of 3 or lower
from,
EE

Koga
2007-04-30, 06:04 PM
On the plus-side, the lawful neutral is being somewhat helpful. Unlike the rest of those ungrateful bastards!:smalltongue:

Khoran
2007-04-30, 06:12 PM
you are only excused from aligments if you have an int of 3 or lower
from,
EE
I thought it was anything below a 3, since a 3 is considered intelligent, where as a 1 and 2 are animal intelligence.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 06:23 PM
Lawful: Military service, likes structure, stability, heirarchy and the State. Simplistic utilitarian world view.

Evil: Terrorism for the state. Doesn't care about others.

darofar
2007-04-30, 06:24 PM
I just need to read the #1 to asumme the guy is an Lawful Evil.

The entery post with all the replys confirm it.

Koga
2007-04-30, 06:28 PM
Well, sense the bartender is being uncooperative. The Koga just stopped pretending to care, and is going to try and sneak behind him and force him to comply with his demands. A good intimidation check involving leaving his kids without a daddy oughtta do it.:smallbiggrin:

And if that fails well... there's always a bluff check "He had a weapon him!" *whisperwhisper*plant a knife on'em...*whisperwhisper*

Koga
2007-04-30, 06:30 PM
Wait, why didn't The Koga think of this before?!

Plant some poison in the idiot bartender's pocket and then shoot him!

Then pullit out and say we found the terrorist! OmG such a genious! It can't fail!

Drider
2007-04-30, 08:13 PM
maybe...just maybe...lawful good...im serious
He believes that what he is doing is to create a "utopia" "one way or another" and that people who don't help toward that are the problem...maybe he would only think he's LG and be LE/NE...but characters like that are always fun lol

Koga
2007-04-30, 09:56 PM
success! Now with the poison in his pocket, he will undoubtedly be charged with acts of terrorism and murder! That'll teach'em to not comply with the law! (AKA: The Koga...)

And sense those jackals The Koga is in a team with are so incompetant, they have no idea what's going on! They'll just have to take his word for it, bwahahahah!

The guy doesn't have to die... but by the way things are looking, it doesn't look like he'll be going home to his wife and kids heeheehee...

Duke Malagigi
2007-04-30, 10:34 PM
Lawful Evil. He'd make a great Dark Marshal.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-30, 10:51 PM
Wierd. Not to buck a trend, but by the time I was done with the original post, I was 100% set on Chaotic Evil. And I still am.

What about this guy's actual actions says anything at all about lawfulness??

Note the things preventing him from doing the horrible things he wants..
#7: Despite how he'd like nothing more then to flipout and kill everyone in the room (theoreticaly then he'd kill the enemy), doing so would be counter-productive. Alot of workers would be needlessly slaughterd, not to meation the grovveling he'd have to hear from his supiriors afterward. He doesn't have cheese for that whine.It's not that doing so would be against orders -- it's that he'd be irritated by his superior officers "whining" at him about random mass-murder.


#9: He doesn't get along with his comrades too well, but he does see them as useful to the cause, and as such gives them the respect of life and liberty. Most of his beef with them is thier lack of total submission to his will;There's no indication anywhere in the character concept that when he's demanding that others submit to their duty and to order and so on that he means anything at all beyond his immediate whim.

The language with which the character sometimes thinks about this might be misleading, but this character is absolutely pure Chaotic Evil without the slightest tendency towards order or good.

Koga
2007-04-30, 11:01 PM
Just the good ol' boys,
Never meanin' no harm,
Beats all you've ever saw, been in trouble with the law since the day they was born.

Straight'nin' the curve,
Flat'nin' the hills.
Someday the moutain might get 'em, but the law never will.

Makin' their way,
The only way they know how,
That's just a little bit more than the law will allow.

Just good ol' boys,
Wouldn't change if they could,
Fightin' the system like a true modern day Robin Hood.

XP!

lol, now the bartender is on to us! He's only incorrect assumption was we going to to accept a bribe to waver his guiltyness. No, The Koga had planned to ride the him being a terrorist thing out and comeout looking like a hero.

That ofcourse didn't planout because the jackass "true neutral" guy had to use color spray on him, and the bartender gotout a club and swinged it at The Koga!

Now he's gotta put on the "we're a team!" and puppy-dog eyes bullcrap so he doesn't get killed and these buncha losers help him out. XD

Hopefuly they won't believe the bartender's allugations, despite how they're pretty accurate...

belboz
2007-05-01, 01:30 AM
I'd go Lawful Evil.

This guy is a perfect example of the Lawful != Law-Abiding rule. He's definitely for laws and order, but he doesn't respect a particular set of laws (e.g., the laws that restrict which weapons and poisons he can have). He's still lawful, because his preference is for *some* well-ordered society.

He also clearly does not care about others. When your reason for not "flipping out and killing everyone" is that your superiors would whine about it, it clearly means that your own convenience and tastes are more important to you than the basic welfare of others. I gather that, if he could be guaranteed his superiors would look the other way (or better yet endorse his action), he'd be out there murdering with the worst of them. That's evil in my book. And the PHB too, if I read it correctly.

Variable Arcana--what makes me go for Lawful is #2 and #11. He sees a society where everyone fits into a tightly defined niche, all doing their "part" to "contribute" towards a "community". Now, it just so happens he's in the top niche--the military--in the society he's working towards, and the "good of the community" happens to line up awfully well with his own personal power and comfort. Unsurprising, for an evil character. But he wants these roles laid out carefully in advance; he doesn't want a continual struggle where the strongest (him) comes out on top by dint of sheer might, like a CE character would.

Talya
2007-05-01, 01:35 AM
Utter disregard for any inherent value of sentient life on its own. He's evil. Without question evil. Also fairly lawful. LE, with an emphasis on the E.

Quietus
2007-05-01, 01:41 AM
Definately LE, reasons already covered.

Matthew
2007-05-01, 08:55 PM
Neutral Evil, I would say, with tendancies towards Law.

Armads
2007-05-02, 08:57 AM
Lawful Evil, with Chaotic tendencies (randomly poisoning people).

Matthew
2007-05-02, 09:29 AM
Hmmn. That's interesting. Lawful with Chaotic tendencies? I would think of that as Neutral with tendencies towards Lawful and Chaotic, I suppose it depends how large you think the 'Neutral Zone' is (no Star Trak pun intended). This guy seems undecided, which is the usual reason for Neutrality in the DMG (if I remember rightly).

EvilElitest
2007-05-02, 11:15 AM
Hmmn. That's interesting. Lawful with Chaotic tendencies? I would think of that as Neutral with tendencies towards Lawful and Chaotic, I suppose it depends how large you think the 'Neutral Zone' is (no Star Trak pun intended). This guy seems undecided, which is the usual reason for Neutrality in the DMg (if I remember rightly).

Nope, actions over intent

he commits evil action, with lawful intent
LE
from,
EE

Yogi
2007-05-02, 12:12 PM
His goal and outlook is that of a Lawful Neutral person. However, in order to acheive his Lawful Neutral goal, he is willing to commit Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil acts.

According to RAW, it's your actions that matter, and his actions are Neutral Evil. The fact that he thinks it's Lawful Neutral doesn't matterm he's Neutral Evil.

Variable Arcana
2007-05-02, 12:22 PM
Wierd. I still disagree Belboz -- I think you're being too swayed by the insane voices in his head. He claims to want military order, but doesn't care about obeying orders. He claims to want everyone to do their duty, but has no regard for any duty of his own.

A person whose desire is to make everyone their absolute slave might actually be working towards a "lawful" society in some sense, but they wouldn't necessarily be lawful at all.

Question:

If you were in a party with this guy, and all agreed on a plan of attack for a mission to achieve some goal your superiors had ordered you to attain, and along the way there were some irritating hippy civilians (making insulting jokes about the military) who he could poison, at great risk to your actual mission...

What odds would you place on Koga's character carrying out the agreed on plan for the objective you've all been ordered to achieve?

If you're not confident, he's not Lawful.

Matthew
2007-05-02, 12:48 PM
Nope, actions over intent

he commits evil action, with lawful intent
LE
from,
EE
Not quite what I am saying. Alignment is a descriptor for a combination of intent and action in any case, but the point was rather is he really Lawful with Chaotic tendencies or Neutral with Lawful tendencies or simply Lawful? I would have to say that there is room within the description to accomodate all three views, but that Lawful with Chaotic tendencies suggests Neutral with Lawful tendencies (i.e. too many steps).
All the same, this guy is definitely at least Neutral Evil with Lawful tendencies and room to argue for Lawful Evil, depending on other aspects of his behaviour.

BadJuJu
2007-05-02, 12:51 PM
The guy is lawful evil with neutral evil tendencies. I love the concept and think its freakin brilliant, but the guy is serial killer scary. He is almost Hitler like in his dreams and curiosities. Just a thought.

admirableJ
2007-05-02, 07:11 PM
Nice concept and good job writing the character. I usually play LN and this guy is a lot like my some of my characters, so maybe LN. Though very, very dark LN if so. I'd say LE is a safer bet.

Koga
2007-05-03, 12:00 AM
The guy is lawful evil with neutral evil tendencies. I love the concept and think its freakin brilliant, but the guy is serial killer scary. He is almost Hitler like in his dreams and curiosities. Just a thought.
Actually that was The Koga's intention. Being an greatly obsessed with nazis, The Koga just wanted to roleplay one lol! And this was his perfect chance! Atchung!:smallredface:


On another note, The Koga doesn't think his rival is being "true neutral", he's way too concerned about what The Koga dooes. This us...

Koga: Heeheehee. The barkeep is to blame! (That'll learn'em to question my judgement!)
*Molests Koga with magic and binds him to a wall or whatever*

"Neutral" Guy: You are a very very bad-man! And I believe these commoners should democraticaly elect your fate you amoral jackass!

Lawful Neutral Guy: Neutral guy, this is not within your jurisdiction. If Koga has done anything wrong, he will have to deal with it when we getback to headcourters and can be judged by the head council. Now I think we should worry more about these people trying to run out of the building. *Lawful Neutral guy was blocking the door*

Koga: YEAH neutral guy! What?! You think you're Hennerious or something?!

"Neutral" Guy: Quiet you! Explain the missing vial yet your coat has vials in every other pocket!

Koga: Did you ever stop to think that pocket was ALWAYS empty? Oh wait.. you WEREN'T THINKING... or else you'd realize we're suppose to be working together! Sure! Lower the morale of the military and have these street urchins think they can disrespect us even more! You're the reason we're underappreciated, underpaid, and underprivlaged!
*Best lie evAr!*

Lawful Neutral Guy: This argument is helping anything. Just let him down and let's get on with a legitamate proceedure for once...

"Neutral" Guy: He's a sociopathic liar with a giant vaccuum where his morals should be!

Koga: And you smell like wet-dog! You may have left the bumpkin life your poor excuse of a mother made for you, but you're the same as ever. You can take the human out of the trash but you can't take the trash out of the human! *Koga is an elf weeeee*

GM: Oh crap, somebody's going to die. Koga I love you, but for your character's sake SHUTUP!

Koga
2007-05-03, 01:10 AM
Now... picture this from his perspective. *Nudges at the dead body.*

You're just happily at a bar, drinking your pains away. And you suddenly get poisoned and die. You don't know who did it, you barely have enough time to know what's going on. As far as he's concerned, it's irrevalanet at this point. It's only relevant to us, who are looking for the terrorists.

Now, are you going to be the one's to tell his family that a fellow officer killed him? Do you have the chutzpah to watch a little girl cry and yell "why?! why?!" as his wife yells at you mercessly to leave her house and curses your names?

Or would you rather go there under strict confidence that this was all the terrorist's fault? That way his family looks at you with serenity and hope. The child's tears turn into a bright smile with her cute little braces, and the wife feels his death is a noble sacrifice to find these bastards and do'em in...


That's an exact quote of him in-character. His whole concept is give people the illussion of security and peace, because the truth is too painful for most normal folk to bare. The productivity level gos up when people are under the impression there's nothing wrong and trust thier goverment.

nagora
2007-05-03, 07:14 AM
He's Lawful Evil. And he's a Stalinist, not a communist. Which is another way of saying that he's Lawful Evil.

If I was to state a tendancy it would be towards NE because of the random use of poison described.

Koga
2007-05-03, 01:34 PM
And now there's like a 99% chance The Koga is going to die! ; _ ;

The best excuses The Koga could comeup with...

It was just a commoner!

He might've been a terrorist...

This is Ravenloft! People are gonna be evil!

An alchemist was controlling my mind...

I'm sexualy frustrated so I have to actout!

I have sweaty boot-rash!


Bahh, that's ok, they'll learn not to PK The Koga's characters. He promised to rollup a non-evil character next-time, but he never said they'd be good.

Dr. Strangelove ftw!

EvilElitest
2007-05-03, 07:31 PM
He sounds like three anime characters i know

Frank Archer FMA, very law binding but corrupt

Light Yagami, Death Note, no explanation needed

Zolf Kimblee, serail killer
from,
EE

Teilos
2007-05-04, 11:12 AM
Lawful evil.
Lawfull for stated reasons.
Evil, because intention is not important. Most evil peopel consider themselves the good ones. "The others are always the evil ones."
This guy kills people without any reason that is ethical justified. Therefore he is evil.

@communism: I study business and economics. None of your points was related to comunism in any way. Comunism is - like capitalism - a theoretical concept how to run an economy.


And as you can tell from his distaste for opinionated or otherwise self-serving thoughts, and a distrust for consumerism as a whole.. He's an oldschool communist.

He dislikes, if others have other opinions or self-serving thoughts. However, he clearly has them himself. So there is nothing esspecially social or comunistic about him.

This guy favors a totalitarian militaristic system. The soviet union might be an example for that, but not because it claimed to be communistic.

Ofcourse, the guy might consider himself to be a communist. That might be part of the character. But the stated points do not make him that.