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jjpickar
2007-04-30, 02:06 PM
Time Stop+disintegrate+Cloud Kill+Force Cage=win. We all know what it means (Celerity is non-CORE as it is in the PHBII and therefore optional) but does it really work on everything?

Vampires are immune to poison and therefore immune to cloudkill. As they appear human and can use various means to disguise their undead nature fairly well (enough to fool a player who assumes it is human which is not implausible). What is to prevent the vampire from using gaseous form to disguise itself as the lingering after effects of cloud kill and escape after the wizard is sure that he has perished from the poisonous gas and has dispelled the force cage in order to loot the body. Obviously, a cleric might use deathwatch to determine the status of the creature's life but for this we assume it is just the wizard. Also this place must be in an area where the sun will never shine in case the wizard waits an inordinate amount of time just to be on the safe side.

Now comes the fun part. As the gaseous form of the vampire wafts to the ceiling, the wizard goes to inspect his victim's body. Inside the hole there will be a body, a disguised human that was pulled out of the vampire's portable hole with magic loot on it to interest the wizard. While the wizard is looting the body, the vampire will sneak up on the unsuspecting wizard ( this is the tricky bit of the plan as there is no protection against foresight in RAW though a non-detection spell like item may work. Hopefully the wizard's will have worn off, unlikely, or it was not even cast, even less likely.) However if the surprise round is gained then the vampire (who has plenty of character levels, probably rogue) won't have much trouble grappling the wizard. Freedom of movement is the only protection against this but since it is not on the wizard spell list in the PHB we will assume that the absence of a cleric and scrolls of FoM are not on the wizard's person. During the grapple the vampire can drain levels and constitution with no saves and in a few rounds kill the wizard.

This demonstrates the extreme difficulty in even surviving an encounter with win button tactics and even then it relies on RAW and other circumstances, especially protection from foresight. There are probably other holes in this plan but I assert that it is possible at least.

Thoughts, insights musings? All are appreciated.

Indon
2007-04-30, 02:12 PM
Just a quick bit of definition nazism (before someone else does it): Celerity is non-core and non-SRD, but the RAW is much more extensive than them, encompassing all WotC materials.

On the idea: Would Deathwatch even work on an undead?

You could also have had Dispel Magic cast upon the PC's party at one point, to strip them of a bit of their magical prebuffs. This can stop an extended self-buff spell cold, for instance.

jjpickar
2007-04-30, 02:14 PM
Death Watch will tell you that its undead.

I always thought RAW meant Core only. I meant core only.

Indon
2007-04-30, 02:16 PM
RAW stands for "Rules as Written". WotC has written a lot of rules.

And anyway, Deathwatch is an evil act to cast, isn't it? I'd think Detect Evil would be more a threat, since all undead have an evil aura.

jjpickar
2007-04-30, 02:19 PM
Detect evil is less likely since your checking whether or not the human is dead. Remember, this plan depends on the Wizard assuming the vampire is human.

Green Bean
2007-04-30, 02:22 PM
I think the problem is that it takes a specially designed monster and an overcomplicated, non-foolproof plan to have a chance to attack the wizard at high levels. I mean, it isn't like there are high level vampire rogues with corpses stashed in portable holes wandering around the countryside.

(plus, you know, it's a bit metagamey to have the one creature able to stand against a single specific tactic the wizard uses just happen to be the one attacking.)

jjpickar
2007-04-30, 02:27 PM
I think the problem is that it takes a specially designed monster and an overcomplicated, non-foolproof plan to have a chance to attack the wizard at high levels. I mean, it isn't like there are high level vampire rogues with corpses stashed in portable holes wandering around the countryside.

(plus, you know, it's a bit metagamey to have the one creature able to stand against a single specific tactic the wizard uses just happen to be the one attacking.)

Actually this was the point of the thread, to demonstrate how hard it is to come up with an even barely plausible way to fight the win button. Besides this is quite obviously from a DM's perspective. Who else would grapple with the problem of an instant win more than a DM? DMs are allowed to metagame. How else does one design a challenging encounter?

Diggorian
2007-04-30, 02:47 PM
DMs are allowed to metagame. How else does one design a challenging encounter?

Very true.

The "Win Button" is a theory with lots of support but it can be countered by a DM (the only player with a true win ability).

A level 20 assassin with a Circlet of Intellect under greater invisibility can stalk a Wizard for 3 rounds then Death Attack + sneak Attack + Con poisoned keen wounding weapon + any other cheese can down a Wizard.

Sure, the mage could have any number of effects going to prevent this, but if you prepare for these and they dont see it coming the DM will Disable Device the Win Button.

PirateMonk
2007-04-30, 02:58 PM
The trouble with at the very least the first plan is that if there are no clerics nearby and this guy is using the win button, it's quite possible that this is the hypothetical wizard that gets tossed around a lot, the one who lives in MMMs and casts Contact Other Plane several times each morning. Oh, and has an Int of 40+. Not just how does the vampire get the body in his portable hole, how does he get a body that looks exactly like him in there?

Green Bean
2007-04-30, 03:03 PM
Actually this was the point of the thread, to demonstrate how hard it is to come up with an even barely plausible way to fight the win button. Besides this is quite obviously from a DM's perspective. Who else would grapple with the problem of an instant win more than a DM? DMs are allowed to metagame. How else does one design a challenging encounter?

:smallredface: Oops. Guess I misread your intent. Apologies.


Very true.

The "Win Button" is a theory with lots of support but it can be countered by a DM (the only player with a true win ability).

A level 20 assassin with a Circlet of Intellect under greater invisibility can stalk a Wizard for 3 rounds then Death Attack + sneak Attack + Con poisoned keen wounding weapon + any other cheese can down a Wizard.

Sure, the mage could have any number of effects going to prevent this, but if you prepare for these and they dont see it coming the DM will Disable Device the Win Button.

The thing is, that's basically creating a very hostile environment for the player. The DM is basically telling the wizard owner that if he makes a single mistake, then his character will die. That seems to be the problem with the wizard class; not the power level, but the way it can turn DM against player.

Dausuul
2007-04-30, 03:04 PM
Time Stop+disintegrate+Cloud Kill+Force Cage=win. We all know what it means (Celerity is non-CORE as it is in the PHBII and therefore optional) but does it really work on everything?

Not at all. Demons, for instance, are immune to poison. Lock up a demon in the forcecage, and you end up with a demon sitting in a box getting madder and madder for roughly 40 hours.

There isn't really a single "win button" tactic to beat all opponents. However, there is usually a "win button" tactic versus any specific opponent, and the great advantage of wizards is that they can almost always come up with some way to apply it.

Green Bean
2007-04-30, 03:09 PM
Not at all. Demons, for instance, are immune to poison. Lock up a demon in the forcecage, and you end up with a demon sitting in a box getting madder and madder for roughly 40 hours.

There isn't really a single "win button" tactic to beat all opponents. However, there is usually a "win button" tactic versus any specific opponent, and the great advantage of wizards is that they can almost always come up with some way to apply it.

Can't demons teleport at will? But you are right, there isn't a single win button against everything. The problem is there is a win button for anything, and a wizard has access to it nine times out of ten.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 03:18 PM
To the OP: Why do you have Disintegrate in that combo? It can't even affect the target while the caster is under the affects of Timestop.

Second, that combo is really only effective against standard fighter types and dumb, physical monsters. It fails against almost any reasonably powerful caster (1 disintegrate and the forcecage is gone). And if the fighter type doesn't have a necklace of adaption and a Rod of Cancellation at those levels then he isn't being played even half way competently.

The real wizard win buttons are other things, especially if you get out of core. I just made this one popular because we had a bunch of Wizard v Fighter threads and I got tired of the fighter people saying that they could beat the wizard, so the new minimum criteria for being effective became you have to beat the Forcecage combo.

The real win button is gate. With it you can kill every single thing on the material plane and actually physically disintegrate the entire planet within 1 minute.

Just use the infinite Titans trick. Come to think of it, you could depopulate pretty much any plane with that trick.

Shapechange is another win button. You can turn into an adult red dragon and decimate an entire army with it.

Dausuul
2007-04-30, 03:18 PM
Can't demons teleport at will?

Well, you usually toss in a dimensional lock before you seal the forcecage. Of course, that assumes the demon doesn't also have greater dispel magic at will.

jjpickar
2007-04-30, 03:26 PM
Not just how does the vampire get the body in his portable hole, how does he get a body that looks exactly like him in there?

This is actually quite simple. Portable holes can carry huge amounts of stuff (like a bag of holding except with a much bigger opening) a body is simple to place in there. As for the body itself, well, your a vampire you need to drink blood and bodies are sorta a by product of your habit. Disguise is a class skill for a rogue and spot which detects disguises is not a wizard class skill. true seeing costs 250 gp to cast and does not help in detecting mundane disguises making it fairly conceivable that this portion of the plan could work.

Also for those ninjas that replied while I was answering this question. This plan involves getting the wizard to use this strategy by means of disguise and such. Making a wizard assume your a fighter with bluff and disguise is fairly easy. Also Disintegrate is targeted at the ground below the target not the target itself.

Indon
2007-04-30, 03:55 PM
The thing is, that's basically creating a very hostile environment for the player. The DM is basically telling the wizard owner that if he makes a single mistake, then his character will die. That seems to be the problem with the wizard class; not the power level, but the way it can turn DM against player.

I would argue that the wizard who builds his character around being able to solve everything himself is inviting the use of tactics beyond his reckoning, leading to such an escalation.

Saph
2007-04-30, 04:25 PM
I would argue that the wizard who builds his character around being able to solve everything himself is inviting the use of tactics beyond his reckoning, leading to such an escalation.

I'd agree, and, in response to the Forcecage Cloudkill thing, reply to it with another question:

Is this spell combo actually causing a problem in your game? Not in the future, or in someone else's game, but in your game right now?

If not, don't worry about it. Yes, some D&D spells are overpowered. We all know this (Forcecage and Cloudkill, by the way, aren't really among them - practically nothing you fight at Level 20 will be killed by that combo). That doesn't mean you have to spend ages trying to think up counters to abusive spell combination X.

If you play D&D in the suggested way, starting at low levels and working your way up to high levels, then by the time you reach high levels, you should have worked out solutions to all the obviously overpowered stuff already. That's a much better way of doing things than saying "I'm going to make this rules-heavy game munchkin proof!" Trying to munchkin-proof a game is like trying to idiot-proof a system; someone will just make a better idiot.

- Saph

Diggorian
2007-04-30, 05:22 PM
Yeah, I myself pretty much avoid this type of issue by not running beyond level 10 or so. Eight levels of gaming when ya dont do the four encounters per day makes a nice length campaign for the central story to resolve.


The thing is, that's basically creating a very hostile environment for the player. The DM is basically telling the wizard owner that if he makes a single mistake, then his character will die. That seems to be the problem with the wizard class; not the power level, but the way it can turn DM against player.

I think only the inexperienced player and DM would let it get out of character. Every encounter shouldnt feature Master assassin Killy McMagebane, makes for a corny story. How I run, the Wizard's player does whatever he can against his enemies, so his enemies retaliate in kind. There's nothing personal about it ... unless the BBEG actually says "And this time, its PERSONAL!"

belboz
2007-05-01, 01:43 AM
Just use the infinite Titans trick. Come to think of it, you could depopulate pretty much any plane with that trick.


Wait...aren't summoned monsters themselves forbidden from summoning for some reasonable length of time? Or does casting Gate not count as summoning? (In which case the obvious plug is to house-rule it as summoning.) Or is this a totally different trick?

deadseashoals
2007-05-01, 02:11 AM
Wait...aren't summoned monsters themselves forbidden from summoning for some reasonable length of time? Or does casting Gate not count as summoning? (In which case the obvious plug is to house-rule it as summoning.) Or is this a totally different trick?

They are prevented from using their summon abilities. But gate isn't a summon ability, it's a spell-like ability. A summon ability would be something like summon 2d10 lemures at a 65% chance.

This whole win button meme is getting a bit old. As people pointed out, there's a number of counters, such that at high level, a good chunk of the opponents you fight are not going to be autokilled by this combo. Being huge or larger, having greater dispel magic at least a few times per day in conjunction with any sort of teleporting ability, getting rid of the forcecage, being immune to poison, being immune to ability damage, not having to breathe, high spell resistance and teleportation, greater spell immunity, etc. etc. The confluence of factors you have to have go your way just to make this combo work, combined with the fact that it's pretty damn resource intensive, make it not really worth doing at level 17.

Quietus
2007-05-01, 02:15 AM
Gate is Calling, and thus monsters are quite capable of using their summoning abilities.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-01, 08:04 AM
As has been said. Gate doesn't summon, it calls. And it takes a standard action. Titans have gate as an SLA. Each one can call one and order it to call another and so on. Since it is on the random encounter table of an infinite plane their are an infinite number of titans.

Epiphanis
2007-05-01, 08:18 AM
The thing is, that's basically creating a very hostile environment for the player. The DM is basically telling the wizard owner that if he makes a single mistake, then his character will die. That seems to be the problem with the wizard class; not the power level, but the way it can turn DM against player.

I don't see that as a problem. A DM is obliged to make an encounter survivable (though not necessarily winnable) by a balanced party, but not for any particular member of the party. Its perfectly acceptable to set up an encounter designed specifically to hose one member of the party as long as you make it possible for another member to save his bacon. This is almost inherent in the game: golems are designed to hose arcanists, oozes to nail rogues, etc.

In endgame play, where players have more varied and powerful options for complex stratagems, it stands to reason that their opposition should also.

Justin_Bacon
2007-05-02, 01:59 AM
Time Stop+disintegrate+Cloud Kill+Force Cage=win. We all know what it means (Celerity is non-CORE as it is in the PHBII and therefore optional) but does it really work on everything?

I'm not familiar with this, actually, and I'm struggling to figure out what you're trying to accomplish here.

The disintegrate can't target you victim (since you can't target a creature with spells during a time stop). Is it being used to create a pit for the creature to fall into? Then you cast cloud kill into the pit, so it sits on top of the creature round after round after round?

But isn't that completely obviated by forcecage? Just cast cloud kill and then enclose them (and the cloud kill) inside the windowless version of the forcecage.

As for avoiding this "win button": Anything immune to poison spends their time in prison buffing up and planning your destruction. Anything with more than 6 HD and an ability to get rid of your forcecage (through their own disintegrate or a disjunction) or teleport out of it will, at worst, suffer 1d4 points of Constitution damage (and they get a save for half of that).

And even if you can't dispel the forcecage, you can always dispel the cloudkill, so that's another way to avoid more than 1d4 points of Con damage.

As "win buttons" go, this one is pretty weak.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Jasdoif
2007-05-02, 02:19 AM
The disintegrate can't target you victim (since you can't target a creature with spells during a time stop). Is it being used to create a pit for the creature to fall into? Then you cast cloud kill into the pit, so it sits on top of the creature round after round after round?

But isn't that completely obviated by forcecage? Just cast cloud kill and then enclose them (and the cloud kill) inside the windowless version of the forcecageCloudkill's text says the cloud "moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground," making it not as easy to focus in one area as many other spells. It's certainly possible that the forcecage will trap the vapors in, but making the cloudkill go into a pit is even more likely to work, since the vapors are heavier then air and thus couldn't escape from a pit.

Saph
2007-05-02, 06:20 AM
Okay, just for fun, I pulled up the D20 SRD and spent five minutes scanning through the CR 20 monsters.

Balor - CR 20. Immune to poison. Greater dispel magic as a SLA. Greater teleport as a SLA.

Pit Fiend - CR 20. Immune to poison. Greater dispel magic as a SLA. Greater teleport as a SLA.

Tarrasque - CR 20. Immune to poison, and it's too big to fit in a forcecage anyway.

What about the slightly lower-level ones?

Nightcrawler - CR 18. Immune to poison, spends most of its time burrowing, and has greater dispel magic as a SLA.

Formian Queen - CR 17. Is a 17th level sorcerer, has an army of formians around her at all times, and is, you guessed it, immune to poison.

Marilith - CR 17. Has Greater Teleport as a SLA, and is - can you guess this one by now? - immune to poison.

Note that these are all core monsters, straight out of the SRD. We're not even taking into account templates, equipment, and class levels.

Conclusion?

The Timestop/Forcecage/Cloudkill 'win button' isn't a win button. It isn't even close to being a win button. Sure, it'll kill an ordinary person with no magical abilities - which isn't what you're going to be fighting at that level! At 20th-level you'll be going up against horrendously powerful creatures whose stats probably aren't even in the Monster Manual in the first place.

So, seriously, quit with this 'win button' stuff.

- Saph

Cyborg Pirate
2007-05-02, 06:26 AM
So, seriously, quit with this 'win button' stuff.

- Saph

For chrissakes will you people get it into your heads that this was never a win-button in the first place?! It was the counter for the masses of "my-straight-lvl20-fighter-can-kill-wizards" threads and posts that popped up everywhere. It was never meant as a "defeat the game" combo. :smallfurious:

Saph
2007-05-02, 06:55 AM
For chrissakes will you people get it into your heads that this was never a win-button in the first place?! It was the counter for the masses of "my-straight-lvl20-fighter-can-kill-wizards" threads and posts that popped up everywhere. It was never meant as a "defeat the game" combo. :smallfurious:

Unfortunately, by successfully convincing people that the 'my-fighter-can-kill-wizards' thing is wrong, you've replaced that meme with the 'a-wizard-can-beat-everything-with-Forcecage' one. So now we get a new thread every day about how powerful Wizards are with their 'win button'.

In other words, it's your fault. :P

- Saph

Cyborg Pirate
2007-05-02, 07:00 AM
In other words, it's your fault. :P

- Saph

*goes into a corner and cries*

Talya
2007-05-02, 07:11 AM
Well, you usually toss in a dimensional lock before you seal the forcecage. Of course, that assumes the demon doesn't also have greater dispel magic at will.

Dimensional lock is subject to SR.

Sir Giacomo
2007-05-02, 07:23 AM
The real win button is gate. With it you can kill every single thing on the material plane and actually physically disintegrate the entire planet within 1 minute.

Just use the infinite Titans trick. Come to think of it, you could depopulate pretty much any plane with that trick.

Shapechange is another win button. You can turn into an adult red dragon and decimate an entire army with it.

Hmm. Actually I have thought also recently about these "win buttons" and have come to the conclusion that, in core, they are no win buttons at all.

1) Gate* - the spell says that you call a creature to you, "willing or unwilling". Since the creatures you call are extremely powerful (if you use the single creature calling option) and have often ways to get to the prime material plane and seek you out, it is a highly dangerous spell to use. Normally, as a DM, I would by default say there is a 50% chance of the creature being "unwilling". Then it will seek revenge, and the caster better has means to defend himself. Or, he just uses the option of calling lower-HD creatures which are no threat to him (and who maybe cannot enter the prime material plane so easily to come back for revenge)

In case of the titan chain: after the first titans' time on the prime material plane expires, they will realise what is going on and stop the caster.
Now if they would not do that, they would accept a mortal being constantly keeping several of their brethren occupied on another plane, which would be quite unusual in most campaigns They are bound to react.

2) Shapechange - whenever you turn into an up to 25 HD creature you are greatly improving your abilities and options, but that is hardly a "win button". Say, the wizard becomes a balor when fighting a balor (plus has his 20th level arcane spell casting). Great, but if he goes melee, it reduces his winning chance to almost only 50% (worse, if he then gets hit by the opposing balor's dispel...). A choker is an often-quoted creature to turn into for an additional standard action, even in core. That is quite powerful since you can then basically get off three save-or-die spells in one round (with quicken feat or item), of which one save is bound to fail for most high-level opponents. However, the choker thing is, even by RAW, not 100% clear, judging by the many discussions already on the topic (the rules sometimes state that hands are needed for spellcasting, sometimes humanoid hands). So it's houserule territory.
And about the red dragon trick: as a high level wizard, you do not need to change into a dragon to defeat an army. Although it is certainly stylish...:smallbiggrin:

Non-core, the celerity spells in combination contingency and with time stop, are likely game-breaking and come close to being a win-button.


- Giacomo

*EDIT: The method to use gate and have the creature wish as an SLA for any magic item you need is extremely powerful, but also has two drawbacks:
- you still incur the risk of the "unwilling" problem. Very DM-specific, and most DMs will use revenge of the creature whose SLA wish you used as a replacement for transcending a wish's normal powers...
- the average gameplay WBL guidelines still apply over time. So the only thing that the wish recipient will get is to choose the item with this method, while the other party members will get their wealth/items differently. In case items are available for sale (as the DMG seems to suggest for average campaigns), the SLA wish combo becomes even less advantageous...

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-02, 07:32 AM
Unfortunately, by successfully convincing people that the 'my-fighter-can-kill-wizards' thing is wrong, you've replaced that meme with the 'a-wizard-can-beat-everything-with-Forcecage' one. So now we get a new thread every day about how powerful Wizards are with their 'win button'.

In other words, it's your fault. :P

- Saph
My fault actually. I'm the one who first posted it and defended it.

greenknight
2007-05-02, 07:34 AM
The Timestop/Forcecage/Cloudkill 'win button' isn't a win button. It isn't even close to being a win button.

No it's not. It can be useful in some circumstances, but it's not going to win in even the majority of battles.


So, seriously, quit with this 'win button' stuff.

- Saph

But there is a non-Epic Win button available. As Emperor Tippy stated, it's the Gate spell, and if used properly, it can defeat any appropriate CR encounter. Why? Because at the cost of 1,000 XP (which you'd get back at the end of the encounter) you can Call (not Summon) any creature (excluding Dieties and unique monsters) with up to 2x your Caster Level in HD, and it's going to obey you for up to Caster Level rounds. Pick the right monster (and it's hard not to get something good when you have that many HD to play with - especially if you choose a creature with a lot of special powers), and there's practically nothing of appropriate CR you can't beat. You could include it as part of a spell combo to make it even more powerful (and reduce the danger to the caster), but even on its own, it's awesome.

Talya
2007-05-02, 07:34 AM
Force cage has a higher gold peice cost than a hamlet outside of silverymoon.

Leon
2007-05-02, 07:35 AM
Rocks Fall, Wizard dies - DM Wins

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-02, 07:39 AM
Hmm. Actually I have thought also recently about these "win buttons" and have come to the conclusion that, in core, they are no win buttons at all.

1) Gate* - the spell says that you call a creature to you, "willing or unwilling". Since the creatures you call are extremely powerful (if you use the single creature calling option) and have often ways to get to the prime material plane and seek you out, it is a highly dangerous spell to use. Normally, as a DM, I would by default say there is a 50% chance of the creature being "unwilling". Then it will seek revenge, and the caster better has means to defend himself. Or, he just uses the option of calling lower-HD creatures which are no threat to him (and who maybe cannot enter the prime material plane so easily to come back for revenge)
Well you can get aroudn that. Just add the line in your callign request "that is willing". Since there are an infinite number of titans, there are an infinite number of willing titans.


In case of the titan chain: after the first titans' time on the prime material plane expires, they will realise what is going on and stop the caster.
Now if they would not do that, they would accept a mortal being constantly keeping several of their brethren occupied on another plane, which would be quite unusual in most campaigns They are bound to react.
They are all called in 6 seconds and last 2 miniutes.


2) Shapechange - whenever you turn into an up to 25 HD creature you are greatly improving your abilities and options, but that is hardly a "win button". Say, the wizard becomes a balor when fighting a balor (plus has his 20th level arcane spell casting). Great, but if he goes melee, it reduces his winning chance to almost only 50% (worse, if he then gets hit by the opposing balor's dispel...). A choker is an often-quoted creature to turn into for an additional standard action, even in core. That is quite powerful since you can then basically get off three save-or-die spells in one round (with quicken feat or item), of which one save is bound to fail for most high-level opponents. However, the choker thing is, even by RAW, not 100% clear, judging by the many discussions already on the topic (the rules sometimes state that hands are needed for spellcasting, sometimes humanoid hands). So it's houserule territory.
And about the red dragon trick: as a high level wizard, you do not need to change into a dragon to defeat an army. Although it is certainly stylish...:smallbiggrin:

Its not that he stays a balor, or a dragon. You can change at will as a free action once per round. And you get a full heal every round. Shapechange gives you full HP of the assumed form. If I remember correctly.


Non-core, the celerity spells in combination contingency and with time stop, are likely game-breaking and come close to being a win-button.


- Giacomo
Not really. TS is only broken when used in combo form with other spells. TS alone isn't broken.

greenknight
2007-05-02, 07:43 AM
1) Gate* - the spell says that you call a creature to you, "willing or unwilling". Since the creatures you call are extremely powerful (if you use the single creature calling option) and have often ways to get to the prime material plane and seek you out, it is a highly dangerous spell to use. Normally, as a DM, I would by default say there is a 50% chance of the creature being "unwilling". Then it will seek revenge, and the caster better has means to defend himself. Or, he just uses the option of calling lower-HD creatures which are no threat to him (and who maybe cannot enter the prime material plane so easily to come back for revenge)

There's nothing in the RAW about the creature seeking revenge. For all we know, it just goes back to its home plane and forgets it was ever Gated. The only thing we do know for sure is that the creature simply departs at the end of the spell.

What you're doing here is creating a house rule. That's a very good idea because a spell as powerful as Gate really needs some powerful drawback. But good idea or not, right now, it's still only a house rule.

lord_khaine
2007-05-02, 08:04 AM
better yet, the new win button is Timestop-> Gate in a Halfdragon Werebear Halfcelestrial Paragon Solar -> Dimensional ancor -> Forcecage around your Gate creature and its opponent.

then Yell as loud as you can, "2 man enter, 1 man leave" :)

Sir Giacomo
2007-05-02, 09:09 AM
Well you can get aroudn that. Just add the line in your callign request "that is willing". Since there are an infinite number of titans, there are an infinite number of willing titans.

Hmmm- quite a good idea. I do not know, if it would work this way, though, since the gate spell does not say anywhere that you know whether a creature you target with the calling is willing or unwilling. The way it is worded suggests that no SR or save helps vs this calling effect (an antimagic field up may help for the called creature, but otherwise...)
Greenknight also suggested just above that it would be houseruling for a DM to put any consequences to "unwilling". There is nothing in the gate spell that suggests a called creature forgets what has been going on.
Hmmm...the way the gate spell is desribed, it leaves a lot of open issues by the RAW in my opinion. Therefore, rulings in either direction would be houseruling. Tricky.


They are all called in 6 seconds and last 2 miniutes.

That should get out quite a few titans, that is true. However, if once again logic is applied: this kind of thing would happen in the campaign the moment the first creature got hold of the gate spell, shutting down the campaign way before the player characters are even born. So it cannot be that way, not even by the RAW (or it is considered an infinite loophole, which must be then houseruled to not exist or the game cannot start :smallcool: )


Its not that he stays a balor, or a dragon. You can change at will as a free action once per round. And you get a full heal every round. Shapechange gives you full HP of the assumed form. If I remember correctly.

Hmmm- I hope that at one point, there will be an OOTS strip about the polymorph rules and cheese :smallbiggrin:
As far as I recall, the Hps remain the same for the original creature, and there is maybe a healing effect equal to having rested for a day (getting back your level in hit points). But I am not sure about this, either.
Still, powerful in my opinion, but no win button. Plus, you are limited by the creatures you are familiar with, which is up to the DM to decide what that means (since there is no RAW definition for that).


Not really. TS is only broken when used in combo form with other spells. TS alone isn't broken.

True.

- Giacomo

Indon
2007-05-02, 11:39 AM
Well you can get aroudn that. Just add the line in your callign request "that is willing". Since there are an infinite number of titans, there are an infinite number of willing titans.


There are horrific philosophical implications to having an infinite number of extraplanar entities who can access the material plane.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-05-02, 12:07 PM
There are horrific philosophical implications to having an infinite number of extraplanar entities who can access the material plane.

Hence why it's a win button. The Titans don't actually destroy the universe themselves, it's the philosophical implications which cause the universe to say "Oh sod this!" and implode. :smalltongue:

jjpickar
2007-05-02, 12:46 PM
Just so people don't think I'm a jerk, I didn't make this thread to bemoan the win button scenario so much as to just talk about win buttons in general. I used the scenario to start the discussion. As many have pointed out this tactic is only good against fighters, hence the bluff by the vampire, but other monsters can fight this as well.

The instant Titan thing works if you strictly adhere to the written spell but I think outside of theoretical discussions this trick will not work.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-05-02, 12:48 PM
The instant Titan thing works if you strictly adhere to the written spell but I think outside of theoretical discussions this trick will not work.

Ofcourse, but that's the whole problem. Thanks to DM's, it will probably never come up in a game, but WotC should've still written it better, along with many other things.

Justin_Bacon
2007-05-02, 01:36 PM
Cloudkill's text says the cloud "moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground," making it not as easy to focus in one area as many other spells. It's certainly possible that the forcecage will trap the vapors in, but making the cloudkill go into a pit is even more likely to work, since the vapors are heavier then air and thus couldn't escape from a pit.

The combo isn't particularly effective, though: The character you're attempting to kill isn't going to fall into the pit until the time stop comes to an end, so now you've got to use the bar-version of the force cage to enclose them, include an area not affected by the cloud kill inside the force cage, and hope that the target can't fly (and won't fall).

All of these increase the likelihood of escape.

Indon
2007-05-02, 03:02 PM
Hence why it's a win button. The Titans don't actually destroy the universe themselves, it's the philosophical implications which cause the universe to say "Oh sod this!" and implode. :smalltongue:

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Given an infinite number of Titans, all possible attitudes for a Titan must exist in the form of one or an infinite amount (for any non-infinitesimal probability of said Titan existing) of these titans.

Thus, if it is possible for a Titan to, say, dislike and want to kill a specific entity on the material plane... well.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-05-02, 03:08 PM
Thus, if it is possible for a Titan to, say, dislike and want to kill a specific entity on the material plane... well.

There's an interesting thought.

Can a Titan get into the material plane by itself?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-02, 03:17 PM
There's an interesting thought.

Can a Titan get into the material plane by itself?
It ahs gate as an SLA. It can go anywhere it wants all by its self.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-05-02, 03:22 PM
It ahs gate as an SLA. It can go anywhere it wants all by its self.

Darn, that makes it a too powerful to be used as a BBEG.

Jasdoif
2007-05-02, 03:26 PM
Ironically, a Titan has an easier time going to another plane then traveling across the same plane, because gate can't connect to two spots in the same plane and a Titan doesn't have a teleport SLA.

It can certainly gate to another plane, then gate to its desired destination, but its gate SLA is 1/day, so it's kind of inconvenient.

EDIT: On second thought, the Titan could use etherealness to move to the Ethereal Plane, and then gate from there, assuming it's in a plane that connects with the Ethereal Plane...what happens when the etherealness effect expires, though?

Corolinth
2007-05-02, 05:10 PM
Frankly, I think the win button is overrated. It's stupid, and a waste of spell resources. Congratulations, you've accomplished the same thing I could've done with Temporal Stasis or Imprisonment.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-02, 05:12 PM
at the level you are casting these spells are at you shouldnt assume that anything you are fighting is what it looks like unless your int and wis are 9, and thus you arnt casting 9th level spells

Jack_Simth
2007-05-02, 05:23 PM
at the level you are casting these spells are at you shouldnt assume that anything you are fighting is what it looks like unless your int and wis are 9, and thus you arnt casting 9th level spellsA Sorcerer can have an Int and Wis of 9, and still cast 9th level spells.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-02, 05:25 PM
ya he can, but then he wouldnt really know if its undead or not now would he since, if you go by the 1=10 IQ theory, you have an IQ of 90....below average

Aquillion
2007-05-02, 05:43 PM
Well you can get aroudn that. Just add the line in your callign request "that is willing". Since there are an infinite number of titans, there are an infinite number of willing titans.This does not necessarily follow. There are an infinite number of integers higher than 0; that does not mean that there are any negative integers higher than 0. Similarly, there is no reason why there couldn't simply be an infinite number of titans in the world who don't want to help you.

Or, if you want a better example: With your logic, you could gate in a titan whose presence instantly and permanently makes you a Divine Rank 30 Deity. After all, there are an infinite number of titans, and therefore there's an infinite number of titans who would make you a Divine Rank 30 Deity just by being near you, right?

Having an infinite number of objects doesn't necessarily mean that one of those objects is going to automatically meet your specifications.

Demented
2007-05-02, 05:44 PM
ya he can, but then he wouldnt really know if its undead or not now would he since, if you go by the 1=10 IQ theory, you have an IQ of 90....below average

Only slightly below average. You don't need 180 IQ to tell that a walking skeleton is undead. Though, if you have 40 IQ, there's always possibilities...

Wizard: "Oh, that's definitely an undead."
Sorceror: "I disagree. It clearly has leprosy."
Wizard: "You don't even know what leprosy IS."
Sorceror: "I'll prove it!"
Wizard: "Prove that you don't know what it has?"
Sorceror: "Shut up."

Jack_Simth
2007-05-02, 06:00 PM
Only slightly below average. You don't need 180 IQ to tell that a walking skeleton is undead. Though, if you have 40 IQ, there's always possibilities...

Wizard: "Oh, that's definitely an undead."
Sorceror: "I disagree. It clearly has leprosy."
Wizard: "You don't even know what leprosy IS."
Sorceror: "I'll prove it!"
Wizard: "Prove that you don't know what it has?"
Sorceror: "Shut up."
No, that's not how it goes.

Wizard: "Oh, that's definately an undead."
Sorcerer: "I Disagree. It's clearly a Ferthoozle from Zimbabwae."
*Sorcerer Rolls a nat-1 on Bluff, with maxed out Charisma and bluff ranks*
*Wizard rolls a nat-20 with Wis-10 and no ranks in the cross-class sense motive*
*Wizard player compares the numbers, looks up the "absurd lie" modifier, and blinks*
Wizard: "Well so it is! It's a good thing you told me, I would have wasted my preparation of Control Undead on it!"

barawn
2007-05-02, 06:02 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of:

Given an infinite number of Titans, all possible attitudes for a Titan must exist in the form of one or an infinite amount (for any non-infinitesimal probability of said Titan existing) of these titans.

Thus, if it is possible for a Titan to, say, dislike and want to kill a specific entity on the material plane... well.

That is incredibly wrong - as is the previous statement of "given an infinite amount of titans, there are an infinite number of willing titans."

There are an infinite amount of numbers. There is only one number with the properties that "2" has. There is no reason to believe that the restriction of "a willing Titan" isn't the same kind of singular restriction.

The problem is in the bolded section: you're implicitly assuming that "attitudes of a Titan" are proportionally probable. That is, given 1 Titan, his chance of being willing is X. Given 2 Titans, the chance of 1 being willing is 2X. There is absolutely no reason to believe this is true.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-02, 06:13 PM
That is incredibly wrong - as is the previous statement of "given an infinite amount of titans, there are an infinite number of willing titans."
No it is not wrong.

Any titan can be 1 of 2 things. Willing or not willing. This is determined randomly.

If it is possible for something to occur then it will occur an infinite amount of times if the number of chances of this thing occurring is infinite.

Infinity doesn't have to equal infinity in this case.

Say you want 1 billion willing titans. Since there are an infinite number of titans then there will be at least a billion willing titans. It doesn't matter that their are 100 trillion unwilling titans for each of the willing titans (numbers were pulled from my ass)


There are an infinite amount of numbers. There is only one number with the properties that "2" has. There is no reason to believe that the restriction of "a willing Titan" isn't the same kind of singular restriction.
What made that 1 titan willing?


The problem is in the bolded section: you're implicitly assuming that "attitudes of a Titan" are proportionally probable. That is, given 1 Titan, his chance of being willing is X. Given 2 Titans, the chance of 1 being willing is 2X. There is absolutely no reason to believe this is true.

Agreed. However there are millions of reasons that a titan coudl be willing. Perhaps the titan is about to be executed by the other titans, perhaps it is trapped in some place and can't escape. Perhaps its just bored.

The point is that the willingness of a titan is determined by certain conditions and so long as it is ever possible that a titan be willing, if given an infinite set, you will find an infinite number of willing titans.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-02, 06:13 PM
That is incredibly wrong - as is the previous statement of "given an infinite amount of titans, there are an infinite number of willing titans."

There are an infinite amount of numbers. There is only one number with the properties that "2" has. There is no reason to believe that the restriction of "a willing Titan" isn't the same kind of singular restriction.

The problem is in the bolded section: you're implicitly assuming that "attitudes of a Titan" are proportionally probable. That is, given 1 Titan, his chance of being willing is X. Given 2 Titans, the chance of 1 being willing is 2X. There is absolutely no reason to believe this is true.
Strictly speaking, if any given Titans' chance of being willing is X, the chance of at least one (of N) being willing is 1 minus the probability of none of them being willing, or more succienctly: P(N)=1-(1-X)^N.
If 1 > X > 0, the probability of at least 1 being willing approaches 1 as N approaches infinity.


But that's boring. There are exactly as many willing titans in the universe as the DM says there are. Which may be none.

Demented
2007-05-02, 06:58 PM
It better be a Titan willing to do what you want, rather than a Titan who is just "willing".

"Oh! Hello! My name is Willing Killing. Who do you want me to kill?"
"er..."
"This is boring. Let's start with you!"

jjpickar
2007-05-02, 07:05 PM
at the level you are casting these spells are at you shouldnt assume that anything you are fighting is what it looks like unless your int and wis are 9, and thus you arnt casting 9th level spells

Hence the use of disguise self and bluff, sense motive and spot are not class skills for the wizard and with the rogue levels a vampire should have not trouble fooling the wizard.

Indon
2007-05-02, 07:09 PM
That is incredibly wrong - as is the previous statement of "given an infinite amount of titans, there are an infinite number of willing titans."

There are an infinite amount of numbers. There is only one number with the properties that "2" has. There is no reason to believe that the restriction of "a willing Titan" isn't the same kind of singular restriction.

The problem is in the bolded section: you're implicitly assuming that "attitudes of a Titan" are proportionally probable. That is, given 1 Titan, his chance of being willing is X. Given 2 Titans, the chance of 1 being willing is 2X. There is absolutely no reason to believe this is true.

Well, as I noted, in an infinity of titans you could well find only one (for an infinitesimal probability). Any non-infinitesimal (not _quite_ non-zero) probability is likely to give us an infinite number of qualifying titans.

Say the chances of being willing is a real number, regardless of how small: 1E-1 Billion sounds good. As the number of titans approach infinity, the chances of there not being an infinite (or would 'arbitrarily high' be a better term? My calculus is kinda rusty) number of qualifying titans approaches zero.

Now, if the criteria were possible, but unique such that there could only be one (or any specific number), then there would be only one (or that specific number). But for anything without such a requirement, and willingness or really most things short of a True Name don't seem to have one, the logic seems to apply.

Of course, the DM can simply say that there are no willing titans, since the DM dictates what is possible and what is not, and could similarly dictate unique probability (only Steve the Titan wants to help you; he has a personal vendetta against the guy you're fighting), but I'm operating under Tippy's assumption of infinite titans and no specific DM operation.

Aquillion
2007-05-02, 09:32 PM
No it is not wrong.

Any titan can be 1 of 2 things. Willing or not willing. This is determined randomly.

If it is possible for something to occur then it will occur an infinite amount of times if the number of chances of this thing occurring is infinite.

Infinity doesn't have to equal infinity in this case.

Say you want 1 billion willing titans. Since there are an infinite number of titans then there will be at least a billion willing titans. It doesn't matter that their are 100 trillion unwilling titans for each of the willing titans (numbers were pulled from my ass)You're abusing infinity; you have to be very careful when applying it, since it isn't an actual number.

For example, there is no such thing as a "probability" of a willing Titan existing, not in the sense you're using it. Either one exists, in which case the probability of a willing Titan existing somewhere is 1; or none exist, in which case it is zero. One of these states must already be true, and the number of Titans in the universe will not change this. If you wanted to estimate the probability of there being a willing Titan, you could use the number in the universe times your estimate of the probability that one would support you; but this has no bearing on whether or not one actually exists.

A better way of explaining why it works this way is like this: Let us say that there are a certain number of states a Titan's brain can be in. They have a string of switches in them, and one of them is set to 'willing' or 'unwilling'.

Now, let us suppose (following your logic) that with an infinite number of Titans, we must hit every state eventually, and therefore have a willing Titan. That's basically what you are saying, correct?

But wait! For that to be the case, we must also have an infinite number of unwilling titans. Therefore, we can construct a theoretical universe using only these infinite unwilling titans. Assuming your character is in that universe, you will have infinite titans, but none will be willing.

The existence of even this one theoretical universe with infinite unwilling Titans is enough to disprove your theory that infinite titans = infinite willing titans (or even a single willing titan.)

Demented
2007-05-02, 10:42 PM
Well, as I noted, in an infinity of titans you could well find only one (for an infinitesimal probability).

Not by any useful definition of probability.

Though the idea of a number, such that when multiplied by infinity it equals 1, is intriguing.

Sir Giacomo
2007-05-03, 05:07 AM
OK guys,

quite funny discussion.

Of course, gate is NO win button, even by the RAW.
There are various reasons:
1) even if the "willing or unwilling" section is random, it is up to the DM to decide what chance it exactly is, since the spell does not specify it. Likewise, the spell does not specify any magical properties of the spell that makes the caster know if a creature is willing. You may call a specific creature that you know and where you can be quite certain it is in accordance of your calling and subsequent request. But if you want to start a gate chain later, you likely no longer know those who are involved, so the risk of one of those seeking revenge is getting bigger and bigger.
2) And even if a willing creature is pulled through, it is very possible (depending on the task it is assigned) that it will resent it and still seek revenge.
3) Even if the caster somehow manages to get a chain of various titans to do his bidding without seeking revenge, the stuff that they can do is not global yet (in particular since they spend one of the 20 rounds with gating in another titan). They may win a combat, even destroy a city or army, but may not be able to prevent a strong enemy targeting the caster with some spell/attack whatever. And a strong npc enemy may start a "counterchain" of gated creatures himself, with even a lowly thing like a candle of invocation (with enough hate, he may get more titans or solars, since he may not care about the revenge of the guys). So still, no "win button" here.
4) And if an infinite gating chain could come about, it is still no "win button", because the pc caster WAS NEVER BORN and had no chance to ever rise to the ability to cast gate since in that campaign some npc had gotten access to it long, long, before and started the infinite chain. Result: cosmic mulligan, which does not suggest a mistake by the game designers, but pointing strongly to common sense interpreting the gate spell in a way outlined in 1)-3), since the RAW allow various kind of interpretations.

It's quite simple, actually.

- Giacomo

Woot Spitum
2007-05-03, 09:50 AM
4) And if an infinite gating chain could come about, it is still no "win button", because the pc caster WAS NEVER BORN and had no chance to ever rise to the ability to cast gate since in that campaign some npc had gotten access to it long, long, before and started the infinite chain. Result: cosmic mulligan, which does not suggest a mistake by the game designers, but pointing strongly to common sense interpreting the gate spell in a way outlined in 1)-3), since the RAW allow various kind of interpretations.

It's quite simple, actually.

- Giacomo

How would a DM go about saying that the world has never existed? Wouldn't it be hard to play a game where the world doesn't exist. Gate is simply too powerful an ability for anything to have once per day as a spell-like ability.

okpokalypse
2007-05-03, 10:52 AM
Guys, there's a bunch of "Win Buttons" out there - but most have a vulnerability or shortcoming.

The Time Stop one is that you cannot target anything while in Time Stop. So you cannot actually disintegrate something or even Dim Anchor it. You can only cast spells that don't affect specified targets or only affect yourself. ForceCage & Cloudkill work. But there's nothing to stop something from Teleporting / Dim Dooring unless you Anchored it before the Time Stop, since you can't delay out of a Time Stop to act immediately after it ends.

A better "Win Button" if you know you're facing Non-Good Enemies at high levels is Holy Word. If you're CL 20, +Bead of Karma, +Divine Spell Power, +Ioun Stone, +Good Domain = CL 30. That means it's an Insta-Kill against anything with 20 HD or less (Like a Balor). No Save. No SR. Heck, anything with 25 HD or less (Like an Aspect of a Deity) is Paralysed for d10 Minutes with no Save / SR. And it's a 40' Radius. Beats the hell out of the single-target Force Cage. And they're both 7th Level Spells. Arcane Casters can gain access to these via Arcane Disciple (Good / Law / Chaos / Evil) for the appropriate one they wish to use.

Then there's the concept of Overwhelming Damage. Conjurer (Focused Specialist) / Master Specialist (Conjurer) / Abjurant Champion. At L17 this guy can pump out 700+ Damage in a Round with No Save / No SR at a Single Target (Melf's Unicorn Arrow) or he could go the AoE Damage Route (Acid Storm) and do 500+ AoE Energy Damage (With Substitution it can be any type desired).

And of course, in any of the above examples, Contingency often thwarts even the best attempt at an Insta-Kill. Also, at high levels an enemy with Spell-Casting ability should have a Spell-Craft to know exactly what you're casting at them, and there are enough Immediate Spells to get them clear of the immediate threat.

Indon
2007-05-03, 11:30 AM
Not by any useful definition of probability.

Though the idea of a number, such that when multiplied by infinity it equals 1, is intriguing.

Hmm. Actually, you're right. I'm not sure if an infinite series of infinitely small numbers adds up to anything. As I noted, my calculus is rusty.

okpokalypse
2007-05-03, 11:46 AM
Hmm. Actually, you're right. I'm not sure if an infinite series of infinitely small numbers adds up to anything. As I noted, my calculus is rusty.

Infinity multiplied by any non-negative, non-zero number is still infinity as a rule. However you're talking about limits, especially series limits, which have infinity present in both a numerator and denominator, you need to use L'Hopitals' rule to derive the limit.

For example, if you had an infinite series of 1 / (x^2) Where x = 2 and grows infinitely each time...

You add 1/4 + 1/9 + 1/16 + 1/25 ... it will eventually approach, but never surpass, 0.5 (if I remember this correctly off the top of my head).