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Dizlag
2007-04-30, 02:54 PM
Hey all,

I was wondering how you would handle this request from a player. Assuming they have the prerequisites for a given feat and the money for the Wish spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), would you grant them a wish for a new feat? If so, how many times?

I thinking of allowing a player to wish for 2 or 3 feats during their character's existence. I'm also tossing around the idea of requiring two immediate castings of the wish spell, the first one to bestow it upon the character temporarily (say a week) and a second one to make it permanent. Or maybe require the Permanency spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) casting instead of the second wish.

So, what do you all think? Unbalancing? Too harsh requiring two castings of a 9th level wizard spell for this effect?

Thanks,

Dizlag

Arbitrarity
2007-04-30, 02:58 PM
50K for a feat? Baaaad.

No, seriously. Feats = very, very good. 50K for one feat? Forever? Think about the carnage with builds that say "we're kind of stretched for feats here". Unless of course, it's a skill focus or somesuch. Really, varying powers of feats make this hard to adjucate.

Telonius
2007-04-30, 03:01 PM
Hmm. That's a tough one. As written, Wish can't do it. Is a single Feat worth as much as a +1 to an ability score? Depends on the Feat, I guess. I'd ... allow it, achievable with a single Wish. (Maybe throw in a special component they'd need for that kind of casting). But, the player would have to meet the prerequisites for the feat in order for it to work normally. Otherwise, it's Monkey's Paw time. If the player chooses a feat they wouldn't normally qualify for, I'd give it to them, and they can use it. But they'd also get a Flaw along with it.

Jothki
2007-04-30, 03:01 PM
Permanent feat-granting is outside the scope of normal magic, but then again so is stat-granting. Assuming that a feat is far more powerful than a stat, Wish probably couldn't normally give feats.

This is where Wish has the potential to be creative. Permanent transformation is certainly within the scope of Wish, so if there's a creature that has that feat, Wish could transform the wisher to that creature as the closest alternative to the spirit of the request. If there is no creature with that feat, Wish would probably try to apply some sort of permanent magic that approximates the benefits of the feat as closely as possible. If there's no way to artificially reproduce the feat, Wish would probably just fizzle.

InaVegt
2007-04-30, 03:01 PM
50K for a feat? Baaaad.

You can get an effective improved critical for a +1 bonus, or 6000 GP. However, this cannot be used as a prereq. I'd say a wish should be able to grant it as long as it can't be used as a prereq.

Jasdoif
2007-04-30, 03:07 PM
Simply adding a bonus feat for the cost of 5000XP is generally a bad idea. However, if the request is simply "give me another feat", I see an easy (and not necessarily needlessly cruel) way to go about fulfilling that request: replacing an existing feat with a new one. A fourth-level psionic power (psychic reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm)) can do this, with a far smaller XP cost, so I don't consider this an unbalancing use of wish.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-04-30, 03:08 PM
If someone wished for that I'd probably handle it by having an item that bestows the feat to them when worn. The way I see it with it granting ability score boosts is that such a thing is good for a wish spell; sub-epic. Afterall, there are epic feats that grant a +1 to an ability score but is slightly better because it's not an inherent bonus (which can only be +5 anyway). Some feats are better than others, but I'd say only feats you could accomplish around level 15 or so, possibly higher level if they make a costly sacrifice to the casting of the Wish.

Dizlag
2007-04-30, 03:19 PM
Arbitrarity: Yeah, it's a tough one to adjudicate because of the range of feats and their level of power. But like Gezina said, "Keen" is a +1 ability ... granted it's on a sword but not on a character. So, is "Mighty Cleaving" a +1 ability granting the wielder the cleave feat.

Telonius: Yes, I was going to require the wisher to have the prerequisites of the feat in order for it to work. However, I like your idea of tossing in a flaw if the wisher doesn't have the prerequisites of the feat.

Jothki: Transforming the wisher into a creature that has the feat is a bit cruel and mean, then again my group would probably appreciate it. Hehehe It's a great suggestion!

Thanks all! Keep the suggestions coming!

Jothki
2007-04-30, 03:23 PM
Simply adding a bonus feat for the cost of 5000XP is generally a bad idea. However, if the request is simply "give me another feat", I see an easy (and not necessarily needlessly cruel) way to go about fulfilling that request: replacing an existing feat with a new one. A fourth-level psionic power (psychic reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm)) can do this, with a far smaller XP cost, so I don't consider this an unbalancing use of wish.

Waitwaitwait. Does that thing allow you to completely reset the spell selection of a level 20 Sorceror for a total of 1000XP?

Anyway, giving an item that grants the feat is probably the best way of handling it, it should be within the scope of Wish and it keeps fairly well to the spirit of the request.

Dizlag
2007-04-30, 03:27 PM
Jasdoif: Hmm, replacing a feat with a new one is a good suggestion. There are rules in PHBII for refactoring a character when leveling up, however. Or are you saying I would just pick the old feat they will be replacing myself as a DM?

Krimm: I like your idea a lot as well about creating a magical item which bestows the feat when they are wearing it. It's certainly within the description of the wish spell to create a magical item. Hard part about that would be the material cost of such an item to reflect the range of power feats have related to one another. Hmmm.

Again, thanks for the suggestions! And keep them coming!

Dizlag

Indon
2007-04-30, 03:28 PM
Arbitrarity: Yeah, it's a tough one to adjudicate because of the range of feats and their level of power. But like Gezina said, "Keen" is a +1 ability ... granted it's on a sword but not on a character. So, is "Mighty Cleaving" a +1 ability granting the wielder the cleave feat.


"I wish to gain the Cleave feat!"
*Transformed into intelligent weapon of Mighty Cleaving*

bluish_wolf
2007-04-30, 03:31 PM
I think it would make sense that you would loose feats in exchange for the ones that you would be getting.

BooBooSpooki
2007-04-30, 03:34 PM
Will this decision make your players happy without giving you a headache? I say aye then. :)

Jasdoif
2007-04-30, 03:41 PM
Jasdoif: Hmm, replacing a feat with a new one is a good suggestion. There are rules in PHBII for refactoring a character when leveling up, however. Or are you saying I would just pick the old feat they will be replacing myself as a DM?Normally when a wish outside the listed safe effects is used, the DM chooses exactly what makes it happen. So you could decide yourself which feat to replace, or let the player decide which one.

And yes, there are retraining options, but you're adjudicating the effects of a wish spell. If you want to simply make the wish an instantaneous retraining, that's perfectly fine.

Keep in mind, the text on wish says exceeding the listed options is "dangerous" for a reason. Just because refactoring options exist doesn't mean wish is required to be better then they are. I mean, if you wanted to be cruel, you could replace one or two of their levels in sorceror/wizard/whatever-they-got-wish-through with levels of fighter, to give them a fighter bonus feat, and that would fulfill their wish. So to me, a nice option like a feat swap seems perfectly OK.


Waitwaitwait. Does that thing allow you to completely reset the spell selection of a level 20 Sorceror for a total of 1000XP?An argument could made either way, really.

But I would say that for that particular instance yes; you could reset all your spells known.

Galahad
2007-04-30, 03:42 PM
Aren't there epic feats that grant a +1 to an ability score? I dont have the Epic level handbook but i think i remember seeing them in there (i know they exist in Neverwinter Nights, tho thats not really proof either way)

If so, a wish spell can grant the equivalent of an epic feat through the stat bonuses. Just limit the number of feats and bonuses to a combined 5 like the spell already does.

Dizlag
2007-04-30, 03:43 PM
ROFL, Indon! That example in itself would make my group crack up! Probably not the one wishing, but the rest of the group will laugh and point. Hahahaha!

Booboo: You nailed in on the head there. It would make my players happy, but I'm trying to get some feedback if the potential for migraines would increase because of it. Hehehe

What it comes down to is having fun at the gaming table. We won't have but 4 hours every other friday night to roleplay together because we all have families. Turning a player into a friggin' greatsword of mighty cleaving because they wished for the cleave feat would be SO mean! But so damn funny to everyone. Of course, I'd let them pay another 25K to have the wish reversed and done right costing about 75k - 100k gp. =)

PinkysBrain
2007-04-30, 03:46 PM
How about just allowing custom magic items which can give a bonus feat? As long as you don't allow custom unslotted items or items with too many abilities per slot the limit on item slots available presents a flexible limit on the number of bonus feats they can get. The AEG suggested 10K was a reasonable price, but I'd probably price it at double that at least.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-30, 03:50 PM
An argument could made either way, really.

But I would say that for that particular instance yes; you could reset all your spells known.

What's the other argument? It seems pretty explicit to me: 20 * 50 = 1000 XP.


Aren't there epic feats that grant a +1 to an ability score? I dont have the Epic level handbook but i think i remember seeing them in there (i know they exist in Neverwinter Nights, tho thats not really proof either way)

If so, a wish spell can grant the equivalent of an epic feat through the stat bonuses. Just limit the number of feats and bonuses to a combined 5 like the spell already does.

As I recall, the epic feats increase the ability score itself. Wish can just grant an inherent bonus, which can never go above +5. This means that the epic feat boost stacks with Tomes, Manuals, and Wishes.

Aquillion
2007-04-30, 03:58 PM
Waitwaitwait. Does that thing allow you to completely reset the spell selection of a level 20 Sorceror for a total of 1000XP?I think that by 'powers' it means psionic powers. So it lets you completely reset your power selections, skill points, and feats, yes, but, per RAW, not sorcerer spells. (Remember, psionics-magic transparency only works for a few specific things.)

Pity it doesn't let you change class, too. I like the idea of a level 20 psionic, in an emergency, spending 1000 xp to suddenly turn into an IotSV-wizard. Or, better yet, hire level 3 commoners, then Psychic Reformation them into useful grunt casters.

Wolf53226
2007-04-30, 04:00 PM
First, I would make the player word it like their character would have to...that will remove most feats from being asked for. Out of character it is easy enough to ask for a feat, but how does someone ask to be able to get an extra attack when they kill something, in the same round (Cleave). When the character doesn't know what a "round" is. Now granted, the people in this forum, and probably your players could come up with something, but not just off the top of their head that would give them exactly what they want. Everything I have quickly thought up on how to word it could quite easily be perverted into something bad without splitting hairs on definitions.
That's right, NO Metagaming!

Beyond that, it all depends on the feat they want on if I would allow it or not.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-30, 04:03 PM
I think that by 'powers' it means psionic powers. So it lets you completely reset your power selections, skill points, and feats, yes, but, per RAW, not sorcerer spells. (Remember, psionics-magic transparency only works for a few specific things).

Actually, psionics-magic transparency works for everything except a few specific things (generally things that require the power point system to work properly, like Cascade Flu). Besides, the principle's the same.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-30, 04:07 PM
I think that by 'powers' it means psionic powers. So it lets you completely reset your power selections, skill points, and feats, yes, but, per RAW, not sorcerer spells. (Remember, psionics-magic transparency only works for a few specific things.)
It also says "decisions of these sorts". If the DM is going to allow it in the first place he will probably allow it for spell selection too, the rules leave a little room for it in any case.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-30, 04:08 PM
Waitwaitwait. Does that thing allow you to completely reset the spell selection of a level 20 Sorceror for a total of 1000XP?If you invoke Magic/Psionics transparency, yes.

As an added bonus, if you invoke Magic/Psionics transparency twice, it is duplicateable via Limited Wish.

Do note that Psionics and Magic are different is a listed campaign varient, which your DM might just decide to invoke if you do this too often.

Jasdoif
2007-04-30, 04:18 PM
What's the other argument? It seems pretty explicit to me: 20 * 50 = 1000 XP.Well, like Aquillion said....
I think that by 'powers' it means psionic powers. So it lets you completely reset your power selections, skill points, and feats, yes, but, per RAW, not sorcerer spells.

The other argument would be centered around whether psionics-magic transparency should be allowed to apply given the differences in the systems.

I mean, a wizard gets new spells at each level and copies them into his spellbook, do they suddenly disappear if the wizard reforms the spells he learned from his last level? If not, there's a cost of 25XP per new spell (and the cerebremancer becomes a spellbook-filling money-making machine!)

For a sorceror, the question is one of comparing spells known at present level and determining the difference between spells known at an earlier level. There's also a chance for (admittedly paranoid) concern unless the character sheet lists which spells were learned at which level; since otherwise multiple low-cost uses could be used to replace all spells known of a particular level.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-30, 04:24 PM
You don't have to rely on transparency, "decisions of these sorts" allows you to include a pretty wide array of leveling decisions based on how you interpret it regardless of transparency (somewhere between all of them and only those explicitly mentioned).

Raum
2007-04-30, 04:44 PM
Since you get a feat every three levels and an ability increase every four, I'd say a feat is less valuable than the ability increases already allowed with a Wish spell. The most effective feats will probably be taken whether you allow Wish to grant one or not. It's the secondary option feats which will be opened up.

As some others did, I'd recomend it be allowed as long as the character qualifies for the feat. Just limit it to five as the ability increases are limited.


First, I would make the player word it like their character would have to...that will remove most feats from being asked for. Out of character it is easy enough to ask for a feat, but how does someone ask to be able to get an extra attack when they kill something, in the same round (Cleave). When the character doesn't know what a "round" is. Now granted, the people in this forum, and probably your players could come up with something, but not just off the top of their head that would give them exactly what they want. Everything I have quickly thought up on how to word it could quite easily be perverted into something bad without splitting hairs on definitions.
That's right, NO Metagaming!It's usually not all that hard to word. With your example of Cleave it's just a matter of wishing for an immediate additional attack when your victim is dropped by one of your attacks. There are probably a few feats which are difficult to describe without metagame terms, but not all that many.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 04:52 PM
If you allow this you should realize that you just gave wizards almost as many bonus feats as a fighter gets.

With 5 more feats I could do tons in different builds.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 05:54 PM
However, if the request is simply "give me another feat", I see an easy (and not necessarily needlessly cruel) way to go about fulfilling that request:

Your Wish is granted (http://www.massageking.com/images/1312/800/Foot%20&%20Ankle%20Anatomical%20Chart.jpg).

Talya
2007-04-30, 06:10 PM
Note that wish spells are voiced "in character."

What feats do you have? I mean personally, in real life? Character sheets have "feats" on them, but the personalities that those sheets represent have no inkling that they know certain "feats." You'd have to word the wish very differently, it's the character making the wish, not the player. And when wording it in a way that fits a character's knowledge, you leave all kinds of room to twist it.

Fizban
2007-04-30, 06:15 PM
I would say yes, with one wish. And add a limit that the feat is considered an inherent bonus, and you can't have more than one feat gained through an inherent bonus. Additionally, this could be used to handle wishes such as "I wish my spells were more powerful", which would then grant spell focus in the school the caster uses most often.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-30, 06:17 PM
If you allow this you should realize that you just gave wizards almost as many bonus feats as a fighter gets.

With 5 more feats I could do tons in different builds.
Yes, but it pretty much only happens at 17th or later, when you can cast Wish yourself... and at that point, Wizards have way too many things they can do anyway.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 07:20 PM
I'm sorry but a scroll of wish costs 28,825 GP. I would buy them as soon as possible and get the feats early.

Aquillion
2007-04-30, 07:21 PM
Actually, psionics-magic transparency works for everything except a few specific things (generally things that require the power point system to work properly, like Cascade Flu). Besides, the principle's the same.Eh? From the SRD, this is how transparency works:

Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas. That's it. That's all transparency does. The only line with any looseness at all to it is the first one, and that one explictly only applies when calculating the effect spell/magic descriptions have on psionics, not the other way around (on the assumption, I assume, that spells were made first, and that any psionics that affect spells outside of the additional transparency outlined in the sections below will say so specifically.)

Indon
2007-04-30, 07:26 PM
I'm sorry but a scroll of wish costs 28,825 GP. I would buy them as soon as possible and get the feats early.

For that much money, you could buy items which gives you the benefit of many different feats, some of them better than the feats themselves.

Though, there is something to be said about the increased versatility.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 07:39 PM
Yeah but start naming items that give feats that can be used to qualify for PrC's. And 30K per feat is money well spent.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-30, 07:48 PM
I'm sorry but a scroll of wish costs 28,825 GP. I would buy them as soon as possible and get the feats early.Highly campaign dependant, that.

When the DM allows you to buy anything you can afford, sure.

Otherwise....
First off, you need a Wiz-17 (or a Warlock 17 built that way, or a Sorcerer-18 build that way, or an Artificer 15 - but the alternate options are highly campaign dependant), or nobody can actually craft it. The person who does this needs to have 5,153 loose xp - and how often does that happen? You might not be able to find the person you need to get it in the first place.
Secondly, You're looking to buy a scroll of a spell that is not commonly available for hire per the PHB tables (as the 5,000 XP adds 25,000 gp in extra costs to the price for something that is already up at 1,530 - and the "not commonly available" limit is 3,000 gp for the sum of base spell cost and extras).
Thirdly, you need a lucky Large City or a Metropolis in order to be able to buy it at all (GP limit of cities), and the placement of such is up to the DM and the campaign. There might not be any that will work with you.

If the DM runs feats the same way that Wishing for stat boosts runs (if you burn an entire Ring of Three Wishes to add +3 to your Int, you later need to get four wishes at once to make that a +4) you'll likely end up stashing those Scrolls until much higher level (although admittedly not 17th).

To do so reliably, for five, you pretty much need to be 17th.

Demented
2007-04-30, 07:48 PM
Advance the character up as many levels as necessary to gain a new feat, and then award the requested feat.

Do so with levels in Commoner.

O.o
(Roll 1 for each hitdie... dispense with skills/etc as necessary.)

Jasdoif
2007-04-30, 07:51 PM
For that much money, you could buy items which gives you the benefit of many different feats, some of them better than the feats themselves.

Though, there is something to be said about the increased versatility.Use some more imagination here.

"Wait, archmage requires Skill Focus (spellcraft)? Where'd I put that scroll of Wish..."

"Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil needs Spell Focus AND Greater Spell Focus? In abjuration? Lame. Where are those two Wish scrolls...."

"Our warblade is willing to pay for me to cast several wish spells so he can have weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization AND improved critical to throw around with whatever weapon he's using that day? I know where the funds for my next batch of wish scrolls is coming from!"

"I'm rolling in money, haha! Let's get Arcane Thesis for every single spell in my spellbook, just for the heck of it! BWAHAHAHA!"

Justin_Bacon
2007-04-30, 08:25 PM
50K for a feat? Baaaad.

I'm not sure what the 50k is supposed to be referring to.

Assuming you're referring to the 5,000 XP cost of the Wish spell, consider this:

Creating an unslotted magic item that grants the use of a feat costs 20,000 GP.

So is spending 5,000 XP in line with that?

As a reality check, Wish lets you duplicate a +5 ability boost item by spending 25,000 XP. An unslotted magic item doing the same costs 50,000 GP. So it looks like granting the feat is a little on the cheap side, compared to the ability boost.

On the other hand, Wish also lets you create a 25,000 gp item -- which would put the feat a little on the expensive side.

So, in short, it seems to fall right into the range of what wish seems capable of.

The only remaining questions is whether you want to limit the number of times you can grant an inherent feat through the use of wish. I would say that this sounds like a very good idea.

Here's what I'd probably do (this is just a rough sketch of an idea): I would create a little sub-system of "inherent boosts" that wish can grant. Inherent boosts would include:

- +1 inherent bonus to an ability score (stack up to five per ability score)
- bonus feat (must meet prerequisites)
- +10 inherent bonus to a skill (can't stack)

Taking a page from the magic item creation rules, I wouldn't allow a single non-epic character to have more than 10 inherent boosts.

Then, as a little fillip, I'd add a rule stating that, when granting an inherent bonus, the XP cost can be paid by either the spellcaster or the person receiving the inherent boost.

And, in any case, remember to calculate the value of this into the party's wealth (just like you would for a used tome of intellect).

Jasdoif
2007-04-30, 08:29 PM
I can't believe I didn't come up with this the first time around....
"I'm rolling in money, haha! Let's get Arcane Thesis for every single spell in my spellbook, just for the heck of it! BWAHAHAHA!""Wait, spellbook? SPELL MASTERY! WHAT SPELLBOOK?! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Demented
2007-04-30, 08:35 PM
Did a chill run down anyone else's spine after Jasdoif posted?

Mewtarthio
2007-04-30, 09:51 PM
Note that wish spells are voiced "in character."

What feats do you have? I mean personally, in real life? Character sheets have "feats" on them, but the personalities that those sheets represent have no inkling that they know certain "feats." You'd have to word the wish very differently, it's the character making the wish, not the player. And when wording it in a way that fits a character's knowledge, you leave all kinds of room to twist it.

Most feats can be phrased as in-game terms:

Cleave: "I wish to be able to cleave through my opponents like a skilled fighter."

Great Cleave: "I wish to be able to slay several opponents with one blow."

Empower Spell: "I wish I knew how to improve the effectiveness of my spells."

Maximize Spell: "I wish I knew how to make my spells as strong as possible."

Improved Familiar: "This toad is worthless. I wish I could get a better familiar."

Deceptive: "I wish to become more adept at hiding my motives."

Skill Focus(Profession(chef)): "I vant to be a vorld-class baker!"

Mewtarthio
2007-04-30, 09:58 PM
Eh? From the SRD, this is how transparency works:

That's it. That's all transparency does. The only line with any looseness at all to it is the first one, and that one explictly only applies when calculating the effect spell/magic descriptions have on psionics, not the other way around (on the assumption, I assume, that spells were made first, and that any psionics that affect spells outside of the additional transparency outlined in the sections below will say so specifically.)

Those are the ramifications of psionics-magic transparency. The definition itself reads, as you posted:


Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

The listed items are just a few consequences of this ruling.

FdL
2007-04-30, 10:59 PM
First, I would make the player word it like their character would have to...that will remove most feats from being asked for. Out of character it is easy enough to ask for a feat, but how does someone ask to be able to get an extra attack when they kill something, in the same round (Cleave). When the character doesn't know what a "round" is. Now granted, the people in this forum, and probably your players could come up with something, but not just off the top of their head that would give them exactly what they want. Everything I have quickly thought up on how to word it could quite easily be perverted into something bad without splitting hairs on definitions.
That's right, NO Metagaming!

Beyond that, it all depends on the feat they want on if I would allow it or not.


Note that wish spells are voiced "in character."

What feats do you have? I mean personally, in real life? Character sheets have "feats" on them, but the personalities that those sheets represent have no inkling that they know certain "feats." You'd have to word the wish very differently, it's the character making the wish, not the player. And when wording it in a way that fits a character's knowledge, you leave all kinds of room to twist it.

QFT. For starters, my opinion is that the topic of this thread is an invitation to metagame.

Characters are the only ones who ask wishes, and "feats" are not an element of the character's world, but part of the gaming mechanic. So a character asking a feat for a wish would be a contradiction, and at best an example of metagaming. :S

Terraneaux
2007-05-01, 12:07 AM
IMHO you should be careful about people wishing for feats as it becomes true metagaming. How does the character have the concept of a feat? What the character should do is wish "I wish I was able to extend the durations of my spells" and they should get Extend Spell. But at least in my games I would allow you to use wish to *swap* feats in and out, but not to gain additional feats above and beyond what their character would otherwise have.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-01, 12:37 AM
Read the thread people. Someone already said how to word numerous feats in game.

Everyman
2007-05-01, 02:10 AM
I would say it is feasible for powerful magic like Wish or Miracle to grant feats. However, I'd require an additional component with a cost of a couple grand. After all, WotC have published materials with items that grant permanent feats with their use. For example, I believe the Laughing Rogue has a special seat in Complete Scoundrel that grants a Luck feat, which costs something like 10,000-20,000 gold.

If someone wants to use a Wish (5,000 XP) and combine it with 4,000-5,000 gold worth of magical components to gain ONE feat, that's fine with me. By the time someone manages to pull that trick more than twice, they'll have fallen behind in my games. Rare is it that people have the raw gold, time, and EXP to simply "make" feats non-stop. Sure, you might have all those great spells memorized via "Spell Mastery", but do you have the personal resources (levels) to utilize them? Do you have the gold to spare for spell components? Do you even have level-appropriate gear?

Congrats! You turned yourself into a "psuedo-sorcerer" at the cost several caster levels and appropriate provisions! Good for you!

PS. Oh, and any feat that try to gain via Wish would have to be one they qualify for. That's just obvious.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-01, 04:58 AM
Embrace the Dark Chaos and Reject the Dark Chaos let you rewrite your Feats. I think they're lower level than Wish though, so probably entirely possible for you to gain Feats. I wouldn't limit it anyways. If a party wants to burn 5k XP every so often(Remember, you don't get Scrolls of Wish every time you sneeze), I'll just raise the CR every so often to compensate for their increased power.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-01, 07:33 AM
50K is approximately the cost of two casting of wish, when you pay for the XP (with GP). If you want to pick nits, it's more like 53.6K.

Dizlag
2007-06-28, 01:23 PM
Hey all!

First, thanks everyone for responding to this thread and giving me ideas / thoughts. I'm not trying to resurrect this thread at all. I just wanted to let you all know what I've decided to allow for "Wishing for a Feat" after talking to my players and reading what you all had to say about it.

I've put 5 restrictions on this type of wish. And here they are ...

1) You MUST have the prerequisites for the feat
2) The wished feat will NOT be retrainable (per the rules in PHBII)
3) A character can have a maximum number of wished feats equal to their character level / 4 up to a maximum of 5 at 20th level. For example, a 12th level character could only wish for 3 feats, 16th level would be capped at 4 feats, etc.
4) The cost for "feat wishing" will increase per the following list:


1st feat (4th level minimum): 5000xp (for the caster) & 25000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)
2nd feat (8th level minimum): 10000xp (for the caster) & 50000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)
3rd feat (12th level minimum): 15000xp (for the caster) & 75000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)
4th feat (16th level minimum): 20000xp (for the caster) & 100000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)
5th feat (20th level minimum): 25000xp (for the caster) & 150000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)

5) And of course, it needs to be worded 'in character'
6) One week needs to elapse before wishing for another feat

Requirement 4) is like wishing for an ability score increase in that you need successive castings of wish to get more than 1 feat. With this schema, wishing for a 2nd feat will cost you two successive castings of the wish spell, a 3rd feat will require 3 successive castings of the wish spell, etc. I added a level requirement as well because I wanted to mirror the ability increases as well. So, with this it IS possible to wish for a feat, but it will be very expensive in terms of gold and XP.

Again, I thank you all VERY much for contributing to this thread and helping me come up with this for my game. :smallsmile:

Dizlag

Fixer
2007-06-28, 04:42 PM
As an Evil GM thing, I would also say that these 'bonus feats' are considered a permanent magical effect, not an instantaneous one, and subject to dispelling.

TheOOB
2007-06-28, 04:48 PM
I would allow you to use a wish to learn a new feat in place of one you allready know, but not learn a new feat, 5,000 xp is not much to pay for a feat at all.

Wraithy
2007-06-28, 04:54 PM
limit it to 1 in a lifetime, or make the spell component the legs of the person who's gaining the feat (that'll make them think twice)

Miles Invictus
2007-06-28, 07:10 PM
I've put 5 restrictions on this type of wish. And here they are ...

1) You MUST have the prerequisites for the feat
2) The wished feat will NOT be retrainable (per the rules in PHBII)
3) A character can have a maximum number of wished feats equal to their character level / 4 up to a maximum of 5 at 20th level. For example, a 12th level character could only wish for 3 feats, 16th level would be capped at 4 feats, etc.
4) The cost for "feat wishing" will increase per the following list:


1st feat (4th level minimum): 5000xp (for the caster) & 25000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)
2nd feat (8th level minimum): 10000xp (for the caster) & 50000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)
3rd feat (12th level minimum): 15000xp (for the caster) & 75000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)
4th feat (16th level minimum): 20000xp (for the caster) & 100000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)
5th feat (20th level minimum): 25000xp (for the caster) & 150000gp (to compensate the caster for XP lost)

5) And of course, it needs to be worded 'in character'
6) One week needs to elapse before wishing for another feat


Two problems:
1) Requiring your players to word it "in character" is, to put it bluntly, a crappy thing to do. It doesn't improve balance, and it forces your players to jump through hoops to get something they're already paying for.
2) You have six restrictions. Not five.

Neek
2007-06-28, 08:49 PM
1) Requiring your players to word it "in character" is, to put it bluntly, a crappy thing to do. It doesn't improve balance, and it forces your players to jump through hoops to get something they're already paying for.

Despite paying for it, a badly worded Wish spell can still spell doom, so it's safe to assume that any Wish should be stated out of character just to avoid this "hoop." This "hoop" is a very integral part of the spell.

However, this brings up interesting points: If the player cannot word what his character wants without referring to the actual mechanics, do you think the player deserves this bonus to his character?

It's easy to ask for an ability score adjustment. "I wish to be {stronger, more agile, more sturdy, smarter, wiser, prettier}."

This also allows leeway for the DM to pervert it, especially if they're asking from a Ring of Wishes or a Djin. You may say, "My familiar sucks. Can I have a better one?" Well, better is too subjective, however stating, "I do not like my familiar. Could I have a fire elemental as my familiar?" That would be acceptable in providing a character with the Improved Familiar feat, however, his existing familiar dies. He will have to wait one year and one day to receive the new, improved familiar. If that familiar dies, the feat may be lost.

Other possibilities include allowing it as Extraordinary or Supernatural ability that usable only 1/day.

Haikiah
2007-06-28, 08:56 PM
Corrupting wishes can be very fun.

"I wish I was stronger" could potentially lead to a PC owing his soul to a demon/deity....

"I wish I had more charisma" is also fun, because they didn't specify very much... PC suddenly changes into a woman!

It's all up to the DM really. Certain wishes are allowed or disallowed by them. Annoy them too much, and you'll find they'll allow it, but not in the way you want :)

DaMullet
2007-06-28, 09:11 PM
Three problems:
1) Requiring your players to word it "in character" is, to put it bluntly, a crappy thing to do. It doesn't improve balance, and it forces your players to jump through hoops to get something they're already paying for.
2) You have six restrictions. Not five.
I fixed it for you...

Anyhow, I don't see why anyone would bother, because at the point when you're casting Wish, you have much better things to do with it.

If I wanted to rule it, I'd say that kind of wish is Personal, and you need to qualify. That's all.

Corolinth
2007-06-28, 09:42 PM
When a player says, "I wish for a feat!" I'd be inclined to give him a feet. I might even be nice and give him two feet.

Yeah but start naming items that give feats that can be used to qualify for PrC's. And 30K per feat is money well spent.Because the world is just chock full of level 17+ wizards with nothing better to do than blow 5,000 experience points scribing a scroll of wish for some jackass they don't know.

Damionte
2007-06-28, 10:45 PM
I'd allow soemthign like that. Then again I also give away feats as loot on occasion. There are so many useless little feats out there you can afoord to give soem away.


I tightly control access to things like wish though anyway. If I give soemone access to a wish spell, they'll have more to worry about than trying to wish for a feat. Someone's life will probably on the line.

Me:The demon has your mother in his claws, he's ripping into her soul, you have a wish to spend what do you wish for.

Player:"I wish for the toughness feat!"

Me: WTfilth flarn flarn and filth! You go to hell, you go to hell and you die!

Miles Invictus
2007-06-28, 10:57 PM
Thanks for the fix. :smallamused: (Oh, and no offense was intended, Dizlag. Just having a bit of fun. DaMullet, on the other hand...I hate you, and I hate the bands you like!)

Anyway...the spell description for Wish notes a number of effects related to spells, saves, conditions, ability scores, and so on. After the list, the spell description says that more powerful wishes can be made, with the risk of being corrupted. Implicitly, then, things on the list of possible effects do not have this risk. Dizlag's rules add to the list of allowed effects; and like the other items on the list, they should work without proper wording.

I suppose if you have your players "properly word" wishes for duplicating spells, or item creation, or ability score increases, then it's perfectly fine to require it for feats, too. I'll never use it, though -- there's too much chance of getting screwed over. I mean, unless you're quite forgiving about the phrasing...but if you're forgiving enough to assuage my concerns, there really isn't much point to making us say it "in character" in the first place.

TheLogman
2007-06-28, 11:03 PM
I would say that the caster would have to go on some awesome quest, just slightly less epic than the slaying of the Tassaraque, alone, with no magic(Short of that required to kill it of course) If the person tries the wish without doing the super epic quest, then they get an extra feet. (Height Ways or appendage ways, both are fun)

Dizlag
2007-06-29, 09:51 AM
No offense taken at all Miles. I added the sixth rule at the end of it after a player sent me an email asking a question about the new rules. I've also added the fifth rule for wording it "in character" to just have fun and try to guess what they're asking for. My group is pretty laid back and enjoy whatever I toss at them. Makes it easy! :smallbiggrin:

I know that 5000xp is tip money for a 17th level wizard. However, 10000xp or 15000xp is down right harsh ... that's a LOT of XP. They wouldn't even be able to cast wish for a 4th feat (20000xp) onto someone. I tried to make it a big more expensive as more and more wishes for feats or cast on a character. Yeah, their first one will be relatively inexpensive, but in my home brewed world there aren't a lot of wizards who will sacrifice 20000xp for one spell.

As The Logman mentioned about questing. It opens it up for a quest to find a wizard who will make this sacrifice. That's kinda what I was thinking when I came up with the requirements in 4) for this specific ruling for my group.

Again, thanks for the feedback all!

Dizlag

hewhosaysfish
2007-06-29, 10:46 AM
Reading this thread makes me think: isn't the D&D Wish kind of lame in comparison to the traditional 3 wishes that are granted in stories and legends?

Bloke: I wish to be a mighty warrior.
Genie: Your wish is my command.
Bloke: Yahoo! I am stronger! I am... Genie... I can't help but notice... I don't feel much stronger. I cannot swing my sword much faster or harder than I could before.
Genie: Well, no. The increase is only small. You'd need to wish for strength again to see any improvement in combat. Your carrying capacity has went up though.

Draz74
2007-06-29, 03:28 PM
Reading this thread makes me think: isn't the D&D Wish kind of lame in comparison to the traditional 3 wishes that are granted in stories and legends?

Bloke: I wish to be a mighty warrior.
Genie: Your wish is my command.
Bloke: Yahoo! I am stronger! I am... Genie... I can't help but notice... I don't feel much stronger. I cannot swing my sword much faster or harder than I could before.
Genie: Well, no. The increase is only small. You'd need to wish for strength again to see any improvement in combat. Your carrying capacity has went up though.

Very true. But note what usually happened to heroes who got their wishes really granted in the full sense. Twisted words, disadvantages to go along with the advantages, effects that wore off after a certain duration ...

A wish spell can still grant you +6 Strength. It just can't do it forever, like it can do +1 Strength. So the examples they give of wish spells in the PHB are under the assumption that the characters are seeking safe, stable, reasonable results to their wishes. Boring? Yes. But it saves a lot of time.

So imagine that your example character asked the genie, "I wish to be a mighty warrior. But only to the extent that your magic is able to make me mighty in a stable, long-term way with no icky side effects."

The Great Skenardo
2007-06-29, 03:40 PM
I think that if they already qualify for the feat and you don't think it will unbalance the game, you can make it a fun little side-quest to retrieve a red Minotaur horn or similar as the vital ingredient to the ritual which will grant the feat. For example, if the Character wished for the Great Cleave feat, you might have appear a small tome detailing a ritual called the "Baptism of Steel" or similar.

You can have fun throwing in little requirements and hassles to make sure the character knows she's earning this feat.

So, bottom line, it should be possible, but require some extra legwork outside of making the hand-wriggles and paying some XP

Lord Nyax
2007-06-29, 04:13 PM
Did a chill run down anyone else's spine after Jasdoif posted?

Yes. Quite an enigmatic loon, isn't he?

Droodle
2007-06-29, 07:07 PM
I think a lot of this depends on the feat being wished for. If a certain feat would have been available for free had the PC taken a PrC level rather than a class level at some point in his build, trade out a class level for a level in the PrC. If he wishes for a minor feat like spell focus, just give it to him. It he wishes for something particularly powerful, give it to him, but bump his ECL a notch for it.