Warforged Tank Build Advice

[DurionArcanis]

So, for the game I was making my tanky Forgelock, I've decided since we got a third player to join and he's going sort of mobile striker/cc build via Binder, I would focus on more actual tank and heal. For this particular build I actually want to go full on T5s and PrC's. (Partial Gestalt as recommended by JaronK, T3/4 can gestalt with NPCs, T5/6 can gestalt with T5/6 and NPCs, some banned classes)

Still playing a Warforged but going a different direction. Mostly considering Paladin//Knight right now, and likely to progress into Spellfire Channeler a bit.

1 Any way to be able to get the Monk's Wis to AC while wearing armor/having a warforged plating?

2 Any prestige classes you'd specifically recommend to build towards for this sort of idea?

3 Should I just ditch one of those classes and take Fighter for feats? Or just a dip?

4 Is Samurai even worth considering here?

5 Anyone know of a way to protect against Psionics even if only just a little? (No psionic transparency in this game)

I haven't built a heavily focused tank in 3.5 before (though I've built one in 3.pf and it worked out nicely).

Oh, last question
6 Should I ditch my T5 restricted idea and just go for something like Crusader or something?

Any other tips (templates, feats, classes, items, etc) are welcome.

[Xerlith]

The Evasion Tank build. (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3536881) A staple. There are some tricks you might want to borrow.

Second option: You're right. The Crusader is the best option for that concept. It's no secret that something like Knight4/Crusader16 makes a solid tank, because you actually have some ways of gathering aggro. If you went (Warforged Paladin4//Knight4)/Crusader16, that makes it only better.

[DurionArcanis]

Should I make this an evasion tank? I was planning on a bit of a soak tank but I can go the other way too.

And should I worry about getting Imperious Command? Seems like it'd be handy at controlling a group with Never Outnumbered and reducing the Demoralize action if I can.

[Red Fel]

1 Any way to be able to get the Monk's Wis to AC while wearing armor/having a warforged plating?

No. Unless you get an unarmored Warforged, it counts as wearing armor, so although you remain proficient with it, it prevents any ability that is prevented by wearing armor.


2 Any prestige classes you'd specifically recommend to build towards for this sort of idea?

Instead of prestige classes, I'd suggest straight Crusader. He has some of the most solid "tanking" mechanics, and some of the most efficient combat healing. If you have to pair him with an NPC class, I'd go with Adept; it shores up your Will save, and gives you a smattering of spells, which in turn will let you use wands.


3 Should I just ditch one of those classes and take Fighter for feats? Or just a dip?

Feats alone aren't going to make you terribly good at tanking or healing, but a one- or two-level dip can help your build overall.


4 Is Samurai even worth considering here?

No.


5 Anyone know of a way to protect against Psionics even if only just a little? (No psionic transparency in this game)

If there's no transparency, then you need something that explicitly grants PR or something similar. The Power Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#powerResistance) armor enhancement is nice, and if you're Warforged, it can go right onto your plating. Be advised, though, that like spells, some powers are PR: No. Another option, if you're not working with anyone psionic, is the Amulet of Catapsi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#amuletofCatapsi), which gives you a 1/day 30-foot zone of "if you want to play, you've got to pay" when it comes to psionics.


Oh, last question
6 Should I ditch my T5 restricted idea and just go for something like Crusader or something?

If you want tank with healing, yup.

[OldTrees1]

Should I make this an evasion tank? I was planning on a bit of a soak tank but I can go the other way too.

And should I worry about getting Imperious Command? Seems like it'd be handy at controlling a group with Never Outnumbered and reducing the Demoralize action if I can.

Fearsome Armor Enhancement[Drow of the Underdark] reduces the Demoralize action to a Move Action. Imperious Command means your Demoralized foes lose a turn each to cowering. Add in White Raven Tactics(minimum cost: Warblade 1 dip at 9th) and you can transform your 1 turn into an effective 3 turns (-2 enemy turns, +1 ally turn). This can also setup a nice WRT + 2x Demoralize, Demoralize + Attack + Refresh, Repeat.

[DurionArcanis]

If you want tank with healing, yup.

There is the Paladin//Healer gestalt that is pretty much pure healbot. And having the Spellfire feat guarantees a solid 40pt healing if you have a way to fill up your pool and have a Con of 20. Could get even more with a dip into the Spellfire Channeler prestige class. As it is the Spellfire feat plus any infinite uses per day spell trigger or SLA or something and you're guaranteed to have everyone topped off for out of combat healing at least.

[Rebel7284]

1 Any way to be able to get the Monk's Wis to AC while wearing armor/having a warforged plating?

Swordsage + Mithril Body feat should do it. Haven't checked the exact wording on plating though.



2 Any prestige classes you'd specifically recommend to build towards for this sort of idea?

Ruby Knight Vindicator is one of the best tanks in the game. Can be entered with Paladin if you want to avoid Cleric casting.



3 Should I just ditch one of those classes and take Fighter for feats? Or just a dip?

Depending on the exact build, fighter or variant thereof can be good. But only for a few levels. Not really great as the focus of any build.



4 Is Samurai even worth considering here?

No. Especially not the CW one.



5 Anyone know of a way to protect against Psionics even if only just a little? (No psionic transparency in this game)

Good saves help a bit. Not an expert in this though.



6 Should I ditch my T5 restricted idea and just go for something like Crusader or something?

Well part of tier 5 definition is "in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute." This just doesn't sound very fun to me. Options are good. Being competent at your role is good.

You can check out the A-game Paladin for a fairly flexible paladin build that has some additional options on a pure paladin chasis.

What I would do in this case would be something like:
Paladin 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ (finish casting or Master of Nine if you can spare the feats)

Note that Sword of the Arcane Order feat makes a lot of sense flavor wise for knights of the goddess of magic such as Wee Jas. Gives you super delayed casting, but still amusing with Battle Blessing + Divine Impetus.

[DurionArcanis]

Swordsage + Mithril Body feat should do it. Haven't checked the exact wording on plating though.

...

Well part of tier 5 definition is "in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute." This just doesn't sound very fun to me. Options are good. Being competent at your role is good.


Firstly, yeah, Swordsage + Mithril Body does get it, but I was looking more for actual Monk or something, because Monk and Ninja are T5 though both say Unarmored. Was hoping there might be a feat or something I can use to change that and make dipping one of them worth it since a solid Pali build will need solid Wis.

As for the T5 definition, keep in mind this is partial gestalt. That means T5 classes can be gestalted with any NPC or T5 which drastically increases their options. Paladin//Healer is a prime example, some serious healbotting there. Another good one is a Ninja (CW)//Ninja (RO) because of the Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack progressions seriously increasing damage potential and you're still a passable skillmonkey. My favorite though is probably Battledancer//Swashbuckler though for all the awesome style that implies.

I'll be looking over and fiddling with the ideas most of today and tomorrow for sure. I like the challenge that could come with the T5 restriction but I don't want to nerf myself too much on it considering our 3 man party.

[Red Fel]

There is the Paladin//Healer gestalt that is pretty much pure healbot. And having the Spellfire feat guarantees a solid 40pt healing if you have a way to fill up your pool and have a Con of 20. Could get even more with a dip into the Spellfire Channeler prestige class. As it is the Spellfire feat plus any infinite uses per day spell trigger or SLA or something and you're guaranteed to have everyone topped off for out of combat healing at least.

The problems with Paladin//Healer, in no particular order: The Healer class, frankly, isn't that good at healing. That's why it's so low. You get a limited spell list, and your class features consist of per-day (and per-week!) abilities. You may be equipped for out-of-combat healing, but in-combat healing is inefficient. Any action spent healing is an action spent not killing an enemy, which means that the enemy is able to deal damage, possibly more than you're healing. Neither the Paladin nor the Healer is particularly adept at "tanking," inasmuch as it exists in 3.5. Further, the character might be heavily armed and armored, but he would be so bad at dealing damage that any sensible enemy would simply bypass him to attack a squishier and more damaging target (e.g. the party Wizard). Being a pure healbot is un-fun. Unless you enjoy being little more than a walking band-aid, it helps to have options. With a Paladin//Healer gestalt, those options are basically limited to "be a band-aid" and "hit things ineffectually."
Now, if you want to get away from the idea of a tank, there are definitely things you can do to create an awesome "heal-and-slay" concept. PrC into Fist of Raziel, for example. Sadly, it's not worth PrCing out of Healer, since its spell list is only somewhat worth advancing and its class features do not advance with PrCs, but you can PrC out of Paladin and still be brutal.

But if you're looking for tank and heal, I don't know that Paladin//Healer is what you should be aiming for.

[DurionArcanis]

In-Combat healing is almost always inefficient though, and there aren't many divine casters below Tier 2 at all, let alone at Tier 5 lol. In fact from what I know the better healers below T2 are pretty much Bard and Crusader, maybe Nightstalker (Dragonlance class that pretends to be a Mystic variant) but I haven't checked out their lists.

Tanking in 3.5 isn't exactly big either, there are only a handful of good ways to do it sadly.

Current party looks to be a Shadowcaster/Beguiler build and a melee Binder (avoiding online vestiges) focusing more on tripping opponents frequently, so I guess slay and heal would be good to have.

Oh, and is the Saint template worth it? Been considering it significantly for various reasons flavor and mechanical... Especially with those at-will's I can cheese up the Spellfire feat's healing that way for out of battle definitely.

[Sian]

off the top of my hat, the only way to gain Wis to AC in heavier than light armor (done via Swordsage) would be to PrC into Argent Fist (Faith of Eberron, p70), dipping to level 2 to be exact.

[DurionArcanis]

off the top of my hat, the only way to gain Wis to AC in heavier than light armor (done via Swordsage) would be to PrC into Argent Fist (Faith of Eberron, p70), dipping to level 2 to be exact.

Hrm... that might make a Monk//Paladin build a serious option for this... I'll have to keep it in mind.

EDIT: After having looked this up and even just reading the first couple paragraphs of the silver flame entry... Wow, this ties in directly with the flavor I was shooting for, and even ties in with wielding Spellfire!