Actually Useable Artificer

[Kesnit]

I completely understand why an Artificer is listed as Tier I. Whatever the party wants, the Artificer can make (assuming a high enough level). As an NPC, this is an awesome class. As a PC, however...

Crafting takes time. Even with a Dedicated Wight, it takes a lot of time to make stuff. Sure, the Artificer COULD have wands and potions of anything, but for the week it takes to make Useful Wand A, (s)he isn't making Useful Wand B. As levels progress and necessary gear becomes more expensive, it takes longer and longer to make any single item. ("I'm sorry, Ms. Barbarian, your +3 equivalent weapon and +3 equivalent armor will take 4 weeks to make. And they are in the queue behind the 32 days will take to make the +4 Headband of INT for the Wizard and the +4 Cloak of CHA for the Warlock.") And for the 2 months all that crafting takes, the Artificer (actually Wight) isn't making wands, potions, etc.

How is an Artificer supposed to actually work as a PC? From my (admittedly) limited experience, I had assorted wands (of low-level spells) and several humunculi, but never came close to the "able to do anything" that is expected from Tier 1.

[Renen]

Be able to planar shift to a known fast time plane.
Just send your wraith there, wait a minute, then pull it back out complete with an item it made over the course of it's weeks of work

Now, I dont exactly remember how magic crafting works just because I havent made a crafter in forever, but if time to make is based off of gold required, then just use cost reduction shenanigans to make items have like SUPER low cost.

[noob]

Spam those auto-crafting homunculus or something else of this kind.

[phlidwsn]

Fast-time planes are one method to work around the time needed to craft. Exceptional Artisan feat will cut the time by 25%. Also, you won't be crafting a +3 equiv weapon from scratch, you'll be adding another +1 on to their existing +2 and only paying the change between the old and new costs in gold, xp and time. Same with the headband and such, you'll be upgrading their +2 to a +4 for the most part.

All that aside, if your DM keeps you on a fast time schedule with no downtime between adventurers an artificer is going to have a rough time of things. If they're willing to have a downtime montage of "here's what everyone's been doing in the month or so since the last adventure" you'll have a much smoother time.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Artificers get the ______ Artisans feats as bonus feats, one of them (Extraordinary I think) reduces crafting time by 25 %, they used to stack but the ECS errata shot down that particular exploit (alongside many other things like the awesomeness of Talenta Sha'ress and Wereclaw master)

[atemu1234]

Artificers get the ______ Artisans feats as bonus feats, one of them (Extraordinary I think) reduces crafting time by 25 %, they used to stack but the ECS errata shot down that particular exploit (alongside many other things like the awesomeness of Talenta Sha'ress and Wereclaw master)

There IS a cost reduction guide, that I am currently too busy to find.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There are optimization things you can do, ranging from the straightforward (dedicated wright, ___ artisan feats) to the absurd (fast time planes), but it is, ultimately, a fairly campaign-dependent class, in a way that most other T1s aren't. So it could easily drop to a T3 in a fast-paced game, even T4 if you're not careful. It needs a game with regular scripted downtime (say one with a lot of sailing), enough narrative control to stop when needed, or both.

It's worth noting that if a player wants to be an artificer, the DM should either say "no, you won't have the downtime you need to do your schtick" or make sure the game does have the time he needs to get his crafting down. It's the same sort of common courtesy as not letting someone blindly play a rogue in a game that's mostly going to be about undead.

[Sian]

the same thing could be said about wizards stuck in a fast-paced campaign with no access to learning new spells outside the 2 per level

[Vrock_Summoner]

the same thing could be said about wizards stuck in a fast-paced campaign with no access to learning new spells outside the 2 per level

... Granted, if played correctly, such a wizard would still be tier 2 at the least, unlike the Artificer who really wouldn't have much of anything going for him.

[Extra Anchovies]

the same thing could be said about wizards stuck in a fast-paced campaign with no access to learning new spells outside the 2 per level

Greyhawk Method and/or Collegiate Wizard fixes that.

Benefits: You gain four new spells of your choice to add to your spellbook each time you gain a level in a class that allows you to prepare and cast arcane spells (such as wizard).

Benefit: You begin play with knowledge of six 1st-level spells plus 1 per point of Intelligence modifier. Each time you gain a wizard level, you may add four spells to your spellbook without additional research.
Normal: 1st-level wizards begin play with knowledge of three 1st- level spells, and can add two spells per level to their spellbooks.

Either the website from which I'm getting the text of Greyhawk Method omitted a "normal" that says basically the same thing as that of Collegiate Wizard, or just that one feat brings you up to six per level, or eight with Collegiate Wizard.

[Kesnit]

Now, I dont exactly remember how magic crafting works just because I havent made a crafter in forever, but if time to make is based off of gold required, then just use cost reduction shenanigans to make items have like SUPER low cost.

IIRC, reducing gold cost does not reduce time. Time to craft is based on the base price of the item. There is a feat that reduces time, but it is only 25%.


Spam those auto-crafting homunculus or something else of this kind.

They don't reduce crafting time. They only allow the Artificer to craft while the party adventures.


Fast-time planes are one method to work around the time needed to craft. Exceptional Artisan feat will cut the time by 25%. Also, you won't be crafting a +3 equiv weapon from scratch, you'll be adding another +1 on to their existing +2 and only paying the change between the old and new costs in gold, xp and time. Same with the headband and such, you'll be upgrading their +2 to a +4 for the most part.

Maybe my examples weren't the best, but the idea still stands. With the time-reducing feat, going from +2 to +3 on a weapon takes 8 days, +2 to +3 on armor is 4 days, and +2 to +4 on a stat item is 9 days (each). And there are items that just start at high gold costs rather than upgrading.


All that aside, if your DM keeps you on a fast time schedule with no downtime between adventurers an artificer is going to have a rough time of things.

That's what was happening. I had my Wight crafting, but there was very little downtime. Some some sessions were only 1 day, and I think the most in-game time between sessions was 5 days.


There are optimization things you can do, ranging from the straightforward (dedicated wright, ___ artisan feats) to the absurd (fast time planes), but it is, ultimately, a fairly campaign-dependent class, in a way that most other T1s aren't. So it could easily drop to a T3 in a fast-paced game, even T4 if you're not careful. It needs a game with regular scripted downtime (say one with a lot of sailing), enough narrative control to stop when needed, or both.

That is pretty much what happened to me.


It's worth noting that if a player wants to be an artificer, the DM should either say "no, you won't have the downtime you need to do your schtick" or make sure the game does have the time he needs to get his crafting down. It's the same sort of common courtesy as not letting someone blindly play a rogue in a game that's mostly going to be about undead.

To her credit, she didn't realize the trouble the lack of downtime was going to cause. Nor did I, when I asked to play the Artificer, and I helped her build the game! (The DM was my wife.)

When I decided the build just wasn't fun, I retired the character to NPC status and made him a dedicated crafter for the party. Which the party is taking advantage of...

[marphod]

Here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0)'s a cost-reduction handbook.

CORRECTIONS: I forgot that crafting time is based off of market price, not construction costs or even base crafting price. Oops. Lets try this again.

In short:
Feat: Exceptional Artisan (25% reduction; ECS)
Feat: Magical Artisan(the crafting feat in question) (25% reduction; PGF)
Research Aid spell (50% reduction, dragon 342)

Theoretically, also Membership in an appropriate Guild, which would have a 10% reduction, although there aren't any associations that offer that bonus, to the best of my knowledge.

So that's a time cost of 28.1% of the listed time.

Or about 25%, if you can find a guild.

You also are almost never crafting an item from scratch. You only need to add the new functionality. That Cloak of Resistance +5 doesn't cost 25,000gp; it costs you 9000gp (the difference from +4 to +5), which is 2.5 weeks. A dedicated Wight can work 24 hours a day, so that's a 3x time increase (unless that's been erratta'ed somewhere, which I kind of expect it has). So that's reduced to a single week; find a 5x fast-time-plane, and you're done (with 2 plane shifts) in 2 days day.

[falloutimperial]

This is the previously mentioned cost-reduction guide. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0)

I would note that with the presence of an artificer in the party, other party members would probably be more than happy to spend a couple month in town between missions.

[Dysart]

Isn't there some sort of loop hole where in the item crafting it lists a day as being 8 hours of work which can't be extended by the crafter.
But the Dedicate Wright can continue work that has been started by the artificer, so technically you can get 16 hours per day, so each day counts as two.
Add a 2nd Homunculi in and you get to 24hours and 3x speed.

[ekarney]

I know there's a cost reduction guide floating around that includes how to reduce time, and gets the gp cost down to ridiculous levels.

There is the every classic "See you pinocchio, we're sending you to another dimension and when I'm back you better have my damn mace!"

And there is a third way, and expansion on sending pinocchio into Salvidor Dali's 'The Persistence of Memory' is to in fact, get a cohort, and if your DM agrees, though hopefully they should for this purpose, have an artificer cohort, preferably one that doesnt age and die, see if you can be allowed to build him focussing on gp/exp reduction then send him into The Persistence of Memory looney tunes style (Plane where time is sped up) and have him do the crafting, bring him out when you need to give him wands to steal charges from or he needs exp.

[daremetoidareyo]

craft a wand of ray of resurgence or from lost empire of Faerun or lesser restoration? maybe. Never sleep again while crafting. You can start 3 times as many projects to get dedicated wrights to do their stuff.

[Kesnit]

You also are almost never crafting an item from scratch. You only need to add the new functionality. That Cloak of Resistance +5 doesn't cost 25,000gp; it costs you 9000gp (the difference from +4 to +5), which is 2.5 weeks. A dedicated Wight can work 24 hours a day, so that's a 3x time increase (unless that's been erratta'ed somewhere, which I kind of expect it has). So that's reduced to a single week; find a 5x fast-time-plane, and you're done (with 2 plane shifts) in 2 days day.


Isn't there some sort of loop hole where in the item crafting it lists a day as being 8 hours of work which can't be extended by the crafter.
But the Dedicate Wright can continue work that has been started by the artificer, so technically you can get 16 hours per day, so each day counts as two.
Add a 2nd Homunculi in and you get to 24hours and 3x speed.


craft a wand of ray of resurgence or from lost empire of Faerun or lesser restoration? maybe. Never sleep again while crafting. You can start 3 times as many projects to get dedicated wrights to do their stuff.

None of that is true. The Dedicated Wight only allows you to go off and adventure, rather than stay home and craft. It does not reduce the time necessary.

[Roga]

I have to agree with Kesnit.


The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit
place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells
(see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177 of the Player’s Handbook)
is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day
per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least
one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take
just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP
at the beginning of the construction process.
The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the
process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive,
and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. A
character who takes a break from item creation to adventure
should keep track of how many days of work remain on that item.
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character
starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the
under-construction item are wasted.

A creator cannot spend more than 8 hours crafting, which means when he hands off his 8 hours of work to his Wright he cannot work side by side with it. That would be the same as working for more than 8 hours, and the wright doesn't give 8 additional hours. It just does your hours for you. For this same reason two wrights cannot both be put to work on the same item, and since only one item can be crafted at a time they cannot be working on separate items either. No more than 8 hours of work can be put into an item each day. It's pretty clear that if more than 8 hours are spent there's no additional benefit.

[thethird]

Here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0)'s a cost-reduction handbook.

CORRECTIONS: I forgot that crafting time is based off of market price, not construction costs or even base crafting price. Oops. Lets try this again.

In short:
Feat: Exceptional Artisan (25% reduction; ECS)
Feat: Magical Artisan(the crafting feat in question) (25% reduction; PGF)
Research Aid spell (50% reduction, dragon 342)

Theoretically, also Membership in an appropriate Guild, which would have a 10% reduction, although there aren't any associations that offer that bonus, to the best of my knowledge.

So that's a time cost of 28.1% of the listed time.

Or about 25%, if you can find a guild.

You also are almost never crafting an item from scratch. You only need to add the new functionality. That Cloak of Resistance +5 doesn't cost 25,000gp; it costs you 9000gp (the difference from +4 to +5), which is 2.5 weeks. A dedicated Wight can work 24 hours a day, so that's a 3x time increase (unless that's been erratta'ed somewhere, which I kind of expect it has). So that's reduced to a single week; find a 5x fast-time-plane, and you're done (with 2 plane shifts) in 2 days day.

What you do is get item creation feats that apply to all items and then apply magical artisan o them.

So you have magical artisan (exceptional artisan), magical artisan (extraordinary artisan), magical artisan (legendary artisan), magical artisan (grell alchemy), magical artisan (bind elemental) etcetera

[noob]

Is it possible to take magical artisan(magical artisan) and magical artisan(magical artisan(magical artisan))

[thethird]

Is it possible to take magical artisan(magical artisan) and magical artisan(magical artisan(magical artisan))

Magical artisan is a [General] feat, so no.

[Pluto!]

Crafting multiple spells onto the same scrolls helps some.

The even bigger problem I've had with Artificers is their 10-minute casting times, which have been inconvenient to the point of actually significantly limiting the class's capabilities whenever I've used it on a PC.

[phlidwsn]

The even bigger problem I've had with Artificers is their 10-minute casting times, which have been inconvenient to the point of actually significantly limiting the class's capabilities whenever I've used it on a PC.

Action points. When you don't have time to prep for combat you're using action points to drop the casting time to a full action, or using the Rapid Infusion feat.

If you're burning through action points too fast look into a minor schema of Unfettered Heroism for free temp. Action Points, though as a 5th level spell its not a low-level solution. (Combine this with Wand Surge and Metamagic Trigger for wand craziness)

If your DM doesn't use action points, you might ask them if you can up Rapid Infusion to 3/day to compensate for the lack, given that Artificer is designed expecting action points to be in play.

[Troacctid]

Obligatory craft points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/craftPoints.htm) mention.

[Afgncaap5]

I think if we assume games where people get all the DM hand-waving that allows for high optimization, they can hit about a Tier 1 or 2. If we assume other things, they're a solid 2 or 3.

Honestly, I played an Artificer in a campaign that took me from level 1 to 15, and I was impressed with just how much she was able to do on short notice. It took a tremendous amount of paperwork, but I was getting by on just Infusions alone.

It's also worth noting that the serialized storytelling that was in mind for the creation of Eberron coupled with the occasional books telling DMs to give so many weeks of crafting time per week of adventuring time are, as has been pointed out, marks against the Artificer in campaigns that tear from low levels to high ones at breakneck speed. An artificer being able to get a few wands, potions and scrolls along with one more significant weapon or armor or notable wondrous item feels about right for a new episode of a TV show or installment of a movie franchise.

[Sagetim]

So, Extraordinary Artisan, Exceptional Artisan, and Legendary artisan are generalized crafting boosters that (as far as I know) apply to all of your magic item crafting. They don't stack (like, you can't claim that the 75% gold reduction applies first to stack that effect onto lowering the time or xp required by basing it off that) but they do apply at the same time. Meaning that to make a +1 weapon (Market price 2k, base crafting price 1k gp and 80 xp and 2 days) With all three feats that becomes 750 gold, 60 xp and still about 2 days (25% off 2 days is still about 2 crafting days).

As far as I know, you can stack magical artisan on top of that, which requires picking a specific craft magic item feat (like craft magical arms and armor or craft construct or craft wand). That feat then applies a 25% cost reduction to the base price of magic item crafting with that feat. So if an artificer had the three feats up top, and also magical artisan (magic weapons and armor) they could then enchant that +1 weapon for 500 gold, 40xp, and in 1 day.

Using this rule stacking, someone coming into play as an artificer in a game I'm in has picked up craft construct, and magical artisan (craft construct), and those three feats to start out with an army of rat effigies that he's put poison injectors in (and filled them with arsenic).

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm just going to point out that Spell Storing Item gives Artificers one of the best spontaneous spellcasting capabilities in the game, along with Archivist + Hathran (with Acorn of Far Travel abuse). If you can't come up with a fourth-level-or-lower utility spell to get you out of your current situation, you either seriously, seriously effed up or you're not thinking hard enough.

[P.F.]

My artificer's main schtick was using Wand Mastery as a store-brand version of divine metamagic.

However, it turned me into the worst kind of capitalist, as I sat out the first round or two of every combat, trying to gauge whether the encounter would yield enough treasure to justify the expensive wand charges needed to enervate our opponents.

[Aharon]

Since it hasn't been pointed out yet, you can do a lot with infusions.

for examples, see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14095913&postcount=30).

[AnonymousPepper]

My artificer's main schtick was using Wand Mastery as a store-brand version of divine metamagic.

However, it turned me into the worst kind of capitalist, as I sat out the first round or two of every combat, trying to gauge whether the encounter would yield enough treasure to justify the expensive wand charges needed to enervate our opponents.

W A N D S U R G E B O I S

Seriously. Wand Surge was the answer to your problems. Find a way to Persist Unfettered Heroism - or just drop it at the start of a combat - and your wand charges are all preserved unless you start metamagicking. All you need to spend are uses of a single scroll (or just get yourself a wondrous item, or a schema, natch).

[Extra Anchovies]

W A N D S U R G E B O I S

This spaced-out typing always gets a laugh out of me.


Seriously. Wand Surge was the answer to your problems. Find a way to Persist Unfettered Heroism - or just drop it at the start of a combat - and your wand charges are all preserved unless you start metamagicking. All you need to spend are uses of a single scroll (or just get yourself a wondrous item, or a schema, natch).

Hm. Haven't heard of that spell before. Let me quick look it up...

:eek:

If persisting that doesn't get books thrown at you, I don't know what will. I don't know who thought that spell was a good idea.

Regardless, for a use-activated item of Unfettered Heroism, you have the 90000 GP (Wizard-crafted) standard model, the 50000 GP (Beholder Mage-crafted) partial-cheese model, or the full-cheese option of 10000 GP for a use-activated item of Unfettered Heroism crafted by a Beholder Mage with Mage Slayer. Since it's use-activated, make it a shoe that triggers every time you take a step. Lets you get around those pesky continuous-item cost multipliers.

[thethird]

This spaced-out typing always gets a laugh out of me.



Hm. Haven't heard of that spell before. Let me quick look it up...

:eek:

If persisting that doesn't get books thrown at you, I don't know what will. I don't know who thought that spell was a good idea.

Regardless, for a use-activated item of Unfettered Heroism, you have the 90000 GP (Wizard-crafted) standard model, the 50000 GP (Beholder Mage-crafted) partial-cheese model, or the full-cheese option of 10000 GP for a use-activated item of Unfettered Heroism crafted by a Beholder Mage with Mage Slayer. Since it's use-activated, make it a shoe that triggers every time you take a step. Lets you get around those pesky continuous-item cost multipliers.

Personally since wand surge + unfettered heroism has been mentioned my favorite trick is as follows:

Schema of Unfettered Heroism (Schema's are really good because it gives you one spell a day every day)

Wand of Metamagic Item; Metamagic item is the second best artificer infusion and you wand it on a wand. Use the schema's charge to use the wand and apply persistent spell to...

A Scepter (LEoF) of Unfettered Heroism (and something else). Scepters are fantastic for spells between 4th and 7th level that don't have a great effect based on caster level.

Then you use your wand of metamagic item, your unfettered heroism + wand surge, and a wand (less than 4th level not dependant on CL), scepter (4th to 7th level, not dependant on CL), staff (more than 8th level or dependant on CL).

Once you are buffed to your teeth and beyond, you get the combat staff and put a couple of wandchambers on it (for a wand of concurrent infusions, the best artificer infusion, and your wand of metamagic item). You can use the wand of metamagic item with the staff to apply a high cost metamagic feat. Concurrent infusions is extremely handy it lets you gain the effect of any 3 1st level infusions, such as spell storing item i.e. you have any utility spell below 4th level at the tip of your fingertips.

[Aharon]

Personally since wand surge + unfettered heroism has been mentioned my favorite trick is as follows:

Schema of Unfettered Heroism (Schema's are really good because it gives you one spell a day every day)

Wand of Metamagic Item; Metamagic item is the second best artificer infusion and you wand it on a wand. Use the schema's charge to use the wand and apply persistent spell to...

A Scepter (LEoF) of Unfettered Heroism (and something else). Scepters are fantastic for spells between 4th and 7th level that don't have a great effect based on caster level.

Then you use your wand of metamagic item, your unfettered heroism + wand surge, and a wand (less than 4th level not dependant on CL), scepter (4th to 7th level, not dependant on CL), staff (more than 8th level or dependant on CL).

Once you are buffed to your teeth and beyond, you get the combat staff and put a couple of wandchambers on it (for a wand of concurrent infusions, the best artificer infusion, and your wand of metamagic item). You can use the wand of metamagic item with the staff to apply a high cost metamagic feat. Concurrent infusions is extremely handy it lets you gain the effect of any 3 1st level infusions, such as spell storing item i.e. you have any utility spell below 4th level at the tip of your fingertips.

Infusions can't be put in wands, scepters etc., schemas are the sole exception.

[marphod]

Infusions can't be put in wands, scepters etc., schemas are the sole exception.

Do you have a citation on that? I want it to be true, but I don't recall either way and not anywhere near my books.

[phlidwsn]

Do you have a citation on that? I want it to be true, but I don't recall either way and not anywhere near my books.
Compare Craft Wand

Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know.
as opposed to Etch Schema

Benefit: You can create a schema of a spell or infusion

[Forrestfire]

Do you have a citation on that? I want it to be true, but I don't recall either way and not anywhere near my books.

Inititially, the artificer had text saying they could use Item Creation feats with infusions, but that was errata'd away.

[fishyfishyfishy]

The Artificer in the group I DM has always been one of the most powerful and versatile characters in the group. We started playing this game at level 3, almost 3 years ago. They are now level 12, almost 13, and he is stronger than ever. Due to him the party is almost always above wealth by level, which by itself is a significant power boost. With Metamagic Spell Trigger persistent spell he is able to keep buffs going on himself all day making himself a melee powerhouse. Through Metamagic Spell Completion he can sometimes give other players similar buffs. Using his extensive knowledge of the Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium he is able to make sure he always has an answer to the problem the group faces, and I can almost never guess what it is going to be. Sometimes it's an infusion that lets him grant a magic armor property that is perfect for the situation, and sometimes it's a scroll he scribed a few months back just for this scenario. An intelligent player can do so much with the class without even having to resort to cheese like Unfettered Heroism (which I banned him from using as soon as I saw it). It really is deserving of it's T1 status.

[Sagetim]

The Artificer in the group I DM has always been one of the most powerful and versatile characters in the group. We started playing this game at level 3, almost 3 years ago. They are now level 12, almost 13, and he is stronger than ever. Due to him the party is almost always above wealth by level, which by itself is a significant power boost. With Metamagic Spell Trigger persistent spell he is able to keep buffs going on himself all day making himself a melee powerhouse. Through Metamagic Spell Completion he can sometimes give other players similar buffs. Using his extensive knowledge of the Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium he is able to make sure he always has an answer to the problem the group faces, and I can almost never guess what it is going to be. Sometimes it's an infusion that lets him grant a magic armor property that is perfect for the situation, and sometimes it's a scroll he scribed a few months back just for this scenario. An intelligent player can do so much with the class without even having to resort to cheese like Unfettered Heroism (which I banned him from using as soon as I saw it). It really is deserving of it's T1 status.

To be fair though, this player also apparently put a lot of time, effort, and planning into his building of stuff. If I had someone like that as a player, I would do as much as I could as a gm to let them keep doing it (banning ridiculous things like Unfettered Heroism from general use, but perhaps allowing it as a one shot non-reverse engineerable item to make a final boss confrontation somewhat more flashy and epic). As long as the other players are still having fun, I don't see this as being a problem.

[fishyfishyfishy]

To be fair though, this player also apparently put a lot of time, effort, and planning into his building of stuff. If I had someone like that as a player, I would do as much as I could as a gm to let them keep doing it (banning ridiculous things like Unfettered Heroism from general use, but perhaps allowing it as a one shot non-reverse engineerable item to make a final boss confrontation somewhat more flashy and epic). As long as the other players are still having fun, I don't see this as being a problem.


It was not my intention to imply that this is a problem. All three of my players play T1 classes with incredible skill. It is a challenging game for everyone involved and we have lots of fun.

[thethird]

Inititially, the artificer had text saying they could use Item Creation feats with infusions, but that was errata'd away.

I was unaware of that being errata'd away, my group always has played with infusion magical items. I'm checking the Errata right now. There are two parts of the artificer that lead one to believe that infusion based magical items are OK:

They [Infusions] function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells.

[...]

Like a spellcaster, an artificer can apply item creation feats and metamagic feats to his infusions.

---

The second sentence was apparently errated away to:

Like a spellcaster, an artificer can apply item creation feats and metamagic feats to his infusions.

---

Personally I agree that the intent was most likely to keep item creation feats from being applied to infusions but the "infusions function as spells" is still there.

[AnonymousPepper]

If persisting that doesn't get books thrown at you, I don't know what will. I don't know who thought that spell was a good idea.

Be a Sorc into Incantatrix (technically you don't need to be a sorc, but it helps, and of course there are other sources of cheaper persist, like Spelldancer for example). Persist Ruin Delver's Fortune and Starmantle. It's the Starmantle Cloak+Ring of Evasion trick, without spending any money, and you're getting your CHA added onto your Reflex save too, just to make sure you never fail the Ref to not get hit by anything.

Other WTF spells for persisting include (if you're a CHA caster) Ghostform ("Charisma to ALL the things!"), Friendly Fire ("Go ahead, you just keep right on trying to shoot me..."), Favor of the Martyr ("Name a status effect for me, would you? Yep, I'm immune to that!"), Lightning Ring ("The results may shock you!"), and my personal favorite, Choose Destiny ("Reroll ALL the things!").

Have I given you enough book magnets? :cool:

[Forrestfire]

I was unaware of that being errata'd away, my group always has played with infusion magical items. I'm checking the Errata right now. There are two parts of the artificer that lead one to believe that infusion based magical items are OK:

They [Infusions] function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells.

[...]

Like a spellcaster, an artificer can apply item creation feats and metamagic feats to his infusions.

---

The second sentence was apparently errated away to:

Like a spellcaster, an artificer can apply item creation feats and metamagic feats to his infusions.

---

Personally I agree that the intent was most likely to keep item creation feats from being applied to infusions but the "infusions function as spells" is still there.

Those are good points. So that works still, heh.

[Aharon]

Those are good points. So that works still, heh.

No, it doesn't. Specific beats general.

[Forrestfire]

A lack of specific doesn't still beat general. Infusions function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells, and have specific reminder text saying they can be used with metamagic feats. The errata makes the RAI clear, but does not introduce anything to specifically say they do not work like spells for item creation feats.

Thus, they screwed up with their errata a bit, and the change didn't do much other than inform us of the RAI.

[Aharon]

A lack of specific doesn't still beat general. Infusions function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells, and have specific reminder text saying they can be used with metamagic feats. The errata makes the RAI clear, but does not introduce anything to specifically say they do not work like spells for item creation feats.

Thus, they screwed up with their errata a bit, and the change didn't do much other than inform us of the RAI.

For PO, I'll cite Caelic's 10 commandments of practical optimization.:


1. Not everything needs to be stated explicitly in the rules; some things just are.
A human doesn't have a hundred and fifty-seven arms, even though the rules don't explicitly say that he doesn't. A character doesn't continue running around after he dies, even though the rules don't explicitly list any negative effects for death. If the designers spelled out every single thing explicitly...even the glaringly obvious...the core rulebooks would be larger than the Encyclopedia Brittannica, and would likely cost as much as a Ferrari.

For TO, the DMG explicitly states the rules for creating wands:


The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires.

Since the artificer can't prepare infusions, and isn't a sorcerer or bard, he can't create wands.

[Swaoeaeieu]

but the artificer does not need to prepare spells to craft. don't they use UMD to fake a spell for crafting purposes?

[Aharon]

but the artificer does not need to prepare spells to craft. don't they use UMD to fake a spell for crafting purposes?

Oh, thanks for pointing that part out. The following quotes are relevant:


An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item.

and


An artificers infusions do not meet spell prerequisites for creating magic items. For example, an artificer must still employ the Use Magic Device skill to emulate the light spell to create a wand of light, even though light appears on his infusion list.

So either a) infusions function just like spells. In this case, he has access to the "spell" that is a prerequisite for the item. As he can't prepare it, nor is a bard or sorceror, he can't create items of it; or b) infusions don't function just like spells. In this case, his infusion doesn't meet the spell prerequisites and he can't create an item of it.

End result: no infusion wands.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i dont understand your conclusion. in the parts you quoted it says infusions don't count for making magic items. but the artificer can make any magic item he wants with UMD checks. you cant make a wand of light with your light infusion. but you can make a wand of light by making a UMD check.

Infusions and crafting have nothing to do with eachother.

[Aharon]

i dont understand your conclusion. in the parts you quoted it says infusions don't count for making magic items. but the artificer can make any magic item he wants with UMD checks. you cant make a wand of light with your light infusion. but you can make a wand of light by making a UMD check.

Infusions and crafting have nothing to do with eachother.

Exactly - but there are some who claim that you can craft wands of infusions - that's the argument I dispute.

[thethird]

Since the artificer can't prepare infusions, and isn't a sorcerer or bard, he can't create wands.

So you mean to say that other than sorcerer, bard, or prepared spellcasters no one can ever craft magical items?

AND/OR

Are you trying to argue that since infusions function as spells is a explicit rule and the artificer is not a prepared spellcaster - bard - sorcerer he needs to have a specific rule that says that he can make magical items such as (the one you already quoted):


Item Creation (Ex): An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item.

Thus the artificer can make spellinfusion wands if and only if he makes the UMD check to immitate the spellinfusion? (irregardless of the spellinfusion being on his list)

That is actually a really good point. I always just assumed that he would use his infusions for making magical items but after reading your post carefully I understand that the artificer, can only make such items thanks to item creation, and in that way can access infusions two levels before normal! I'm adding this to my list of artificer tricks!

---

I think you are being unfair to dread necromancers. I mean gaining craft wondrous item at 19 was something I always thought to be rather bad, but if they cannot even use it well then... it's much worse.

[marphod]

Just a sidebar, but you cannot make a strong argument either for or against something using support text that was published years before the anyone conceived as a possibility of the contentious text.

In other words: I believe the text about wands is virtually identical to the text from the 3.0 DMG published in in 2000. ECS (and therefore the first publication about infusions)was published in 2004.

That's like saying 'since there is no exception in Newtonian Physics for Relativity, Newton must disagree with Einstein.'

[Swaoeaeieu]

Exactly - but there are some who claim that you can craft wands of infusions - that's the argument I dispute.

technicaly you are right, you cant make a wand of an infusion. but since infusions on your list are all (or almost all) also spells. you can use UMD to make a wand of the spell. the spell begin identical to the infusion in question.

but then again, i didnt read the whole thread so don't really know what we are arguing about :P just hoping to help

[Aharon]

@thethird
No, read the rule closely. The Artificer can craft items even if he doesn't have access to the spell. If that is the case, Artificer crafting applies. If he does have access to the spell, he creates items as usual. The rule doesn't say he can craft that way if he has access to the spell.
=>Dread Necromancer
I'm not arguing that this is sane, and I would never rule so as a DM. But it is RAW. My point is that taking a stupid meaning from RAW when RAI is very clear (in the case of infusion wands, by the errata), isn't the best approach.

@marphod
If we leave our brains at the door and discuss pure RAW, of course we can.

@Swaoeaeieu
We were specifically discussing those infusions that don't have spell counterparts. Some of them would come in very handy in wand form.

[Swaoeaeieu]

wands need spells iirc, but last time i read it, minor schema´s can be made of infusions. usable once per day for the rest of your life. wouldnt that work?

[P.F.]

wands need spells iirc, but last time i read it, minor schema´s can be made of infusions. usable once per day for the rest of your life. wouldnt that work?

Yes, but we don't want a schema, we want a wand. Of an infusion. That is not also a spell.

[marphod]

wands need spells iirc, but last time i read it, minor schema´s can be made of infusions. usable once per day for the rest of your life. wouldnt that work?

I....

facepalm->headdesk

I understand that long threads over dozens of pages can be difficult to backtrace to the start and follow the narrative thread. But this thread is only a page and a fraction long at this point. And this point of contention is over a key element to the Original Poster's idea/design concept.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I....

facepalm->headdesk

I understand that long threads over dozens of pages can be difficult to backtrace to the start and follow the narrative thread. But this thread is only a page and a fraction long at this point. And this point of contention is over a key element to the Original Poster's idea/design concept.

eeeeeh, whoops. And that's why i shouldn't try to help when late at night. just reread everything and i sure do come across as an idiot don't i?

Just reread it all an realised i can't help with this.
good luck y'all