What is a summoner to do?

[CyberThread]

It really seems this traditional magical archtype was really ignored this era so far, am I wrong or was it cut for balance reasons?

[Demonic Spoon]

It really seems this traditional magical archtype was really ignored this era so far, am I wrong or was it cut for balance reasons?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Wizards get summon spells. They're not very good at it by default, but conjuration specialty gives them some large boosts.

Druids are amazing summoners, as well.

[Warwick]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Wizards get summon spells. They're not very good at it by default, but conjuration specialty gives them some large boosts.

You can't summon anything as a wizard until you get 4th level spells, and the conjuration tradition only helps with summoned monsters at high levels (and there it only makes them a bit tougher).

If you want to play the guy who summons demons or elementals or celestial badgers, you've got a long wait before anything like that comes online, your options are very limited, and you can't even summon celestial badgers anymore. Druids are a bit better at it in that they get a 3rd level summoning spell, but it's still not very varied. There's no analog to the Summon Monster I-IX that 3.X had.

[Naanomi]

I just wish there were some lower level summoning spells so the 'summoner' schtick can start sooner

[Demonic Spoon]

You can't summon anything as a wizard until you get 4th level spells, and the conjuration tradition only helps with summoned monsters at high levels (and there it only makes them a bit tougher).

If you want to play the guy who summons demons or elementals or celestial badgers, you've got a long wait before anything like that comes online, your options are very limited, and you can't even summon celestial badgers anymore. Druids are a bit better at it in that they get a 3rd level summoning spell, but it's still not very varied. There's no analog to the Summon Monster I-IX that 3.X had.

Yes there is - it's just that summon spells scale with slot level now as opposed to there just being a new "Summon Monster" spell.

I can see why someone might want a lower-level summon spell, but once you get to 3rd/4th level spells, it works fine.

[RealCheese]

I've given my conjuration wizard player access to the third level druid summoning spells. Better than nothing.

[Demonic Spoon]

I've given my conjuration wizard player access to the third level druid summoning spells. Better than nothing.

I wouldn't break the established paradigms - being good at summoning is kind of the druid's thing. Instead, it's probably better to create a new summoning spell for wizards that contains the normal weaknesses of wizard summon spells (1 minute casting time). Maybe give conjuration wizards a new low-level feature to make summoning better instead of what they get now instead of giving all wizards access to awesome summoning.

[PotatoGolem]

I agree with you that summoner is hard to pull of by RAW. If you're open to homebrew, we play with an expanded list of summon spells, and it hasn't been broken so far:

http://worldbuilderblog.me/2015/04/02/the-conjuring/

[SharkForce]

I agree with you that summoner is hard to pull of by RAW. If you're open to homebrew, we play with an expanded list of summon spells, and it hasn't been broken so far:

http://worldbuilderblog.me/2015/04/02/the-conjuring/

i'm surprised the level 1 spell hasn't broken anything. a CR 1 monstrosity is a heck of a lot more impressive than just about anything you'd expect a level 1 spell to do, lasts for an hour, and is honestly probably more powerful than having a level 1 character.

if you really want a level 1 summoning spell, i'd probably keep it short duration (like 1 minute), or make it only handle very low CR creatures (like 1/4, tops).

[Demonic Spoon]

i'm surprised the level 1 spell hasn't broken anything. a CR 1 monstrosity is a heck of a lot more impressive than just about anything you'd expect a level 1 spell to do, lasts for an hour, and is honestly probably more powerful than having a level 1 character.

if you really want a level 1 summoning spell, i'd probably keep it short duration (like 1 minute), or make it only handle very low CR creatures (like 1/4, tops).

i think the key bit was here:


If your concentration is broken, the creature doesn’t disappear. Instead, you lose control of the creature, it becomes hostile toward you and your companions, and it might attack. An uncontrolled creature can’t be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.


It's...interesting. I won't say definitively whether or not it's enough of a downside, but it's a cool concept. If you use this spell to power through a tough encounter, you might just end up making it worse on yourself.

[Slipperychicken]

I think it's reasonable. Summoning allies is just too strong for 1st level spells.


Besides, you can always say you're briefly summoning a little fire spirit with Fire Bolt, or a wind spirit with Gust, or an earth spirit with Mold Earth, a water spirit with Shape Water, and so on.

[Warwick]

A level one summoning spell is fine. It shouldn't summon a CR 1 monster, but something like a celestial badger (CR 1/2) or below is fine, especially if it is only for a few rounds. It wasn't the Summon Monster N spells that made summoning broken in 3.X, it was Planar Binding.

Though to be honest, I think the best way to handle the dedicated summoner archetype would be to have some kind of pokemancer class. Instead of getting regular spells, they're able to more frequently summon from a select list of monsters that get more powerful as they level up.

[PotatoGolem]

Yeah the possibility of losing control is what balanced it. I was playing a conjurer wizard with that list, and at low levels it's a real dilemma. You have to cast the spell before a fight is imminent, and an ambush can REALLY mess you up- a couple arrows in you and all of a sudden the fight becomes exponentially more difficult. It's a very high risk/high reward spell. I spent a lot of time hiding while the monster fought, which fit the character but isn't for everyone.

[MrStabby]

Yeah the possibility of losing control is what balanced it. I was playing a conjurer wizard with that list, and at low levels it's a real dilemma. You have to cast the spell before a fight is imminent, and an ambush can REALLY mess you up- a couple arrows in you and all of a sudden the fight becomes exponentially more difficult. It's a very high risk/high reward spell. I spent a lot of time hiding while the monster fought, which fit the character but isn't for everyone.

If I were DM I would be very wary of the spell. Yes on average its an ok power as a it has a significant downside but it is the distribution that worries me.

Either concentration isn't lost and the summoner dominates the fight doing much more than everyone else, overshadowing them and taking away their fun... or they lose concentration and wreck the party... also (possibly) taking away a lot of their fun. Certainly if I were a player I don't think I would be happy to have this at the same table.

[Gurka]

I think why they restricted it so heavily is the same reason we see the BM Ranger in the state it is. They're hyper-concerned about breaking the action economy. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely something important to keep an eye on, but I think they went overboard.

What I'd really like to see is a non-necromancer summoner Archetype for the Wizard, that has a certain number of HD worth of permanent minions (could be one big construct, or could be several weaker ones, depending on how the Wizard wants it). Something along the lines of the Summoner from Pathfinder, but ya know... less broken.

[Kryx]

I'm quite happy that summoning is less common. While some may miss the fun of it the old system was quite poorly balanced. Summoning by its nature adds tons of HP to soak the damage of enemies and adds good damage. In 3.X summoning (or a ranger's pet) could be better than the party's fighter.

Plus it cuts down on time spent having a player control 2 things.

[Ardantis]

I have to agree with WOTC on how they handled summoning in this edition. Like, say, scrying, it is just an ability reserved for higher levels.

Which is also why the risk/reward of losing control of minions is reserved for higher levels- when a party might be able to handle it (by combat or tactical retreat).

As far as the conjuration school is concerned, low level transposition is strong enough, and high level HP buff to summons is actually borderline broken on Conjure Minor Elementals because you get so many bodies that the effective HP boost is enormous.

Summoning and conjuration is the reason that the Beastmaster Ranger is so underpowered- they get an infinite duration summon which doesn't require concentration and never turns on his master! Sounds great, but action economy nerf was too much.

TL;DR Summoning is fine relegated to high levels, Beastmaster Ranger shouldn't have action economy nerfs.

[twas_Brillig]

TL;DR Summoning is fine relegated to high levels, Beastmaster Ranger shouldn't have action economy nerfs.

I have a theory that part of what they were going for with the BM was sort of turning their companion into a combat style, so by extension a weapon which you would use your action to attack with. So, in my mind, one fix for the BM is to give them combat maneuvers themed around fighting in tandem with your companion. That gives you the flavor of fighting with an ally, and some tactical bonuses with flanking and such, but doesn't bog things down with multiple actors per turn. I'm not sure how that same design could translate for a more focused summoner, except through things like fluffing spells as minor summons.

[numerek]

cantrip
mage hand

1st level
find familiar
unseen servant

If you look at the at higher levels you could reverse it
Conjure minor elementals as a second level spell
1 elemental challenge rating 1 or lower
2 elementals challenge rating 1/2 or lower
4 elementals challenge rating 1/4 or lower

If you do the same thing with conjure elemental
conjure elemental as a first level spell
you would get a challenge rating 1 elemental that could turn on you.

[Naanomi]

I'm fine with no 1st level spell, but I'd like a 2nd level... Many concepts don't really mature until the 'apprentice' levels are done anyways.

[SharkForce]

cantrip
mage hand

1st level
find familiar
unseen servant

If you look at the at higher levels you could reverse it
Conjure minor elementals as a second level spell
1 elemental challenge rating 1 or lower
2 elementals challenge rating 1/2 or lower
4 elementals challenge rating 1/4 or lower

If you do the same thing with conjure elemental
conjure elemental as a first level spell
you would get a challenge rating 1 elemental that could turn on you.

i disagree, mostly because of how the spell scales once every 2 levels by 1 point of CR.

when you're casting level 9 spells, CR 9 creatures are useful, but no match for a level 17 character. when you're casting level 4 spells, CR 4 creatures are, again, useful, but probably not more impressive than a level 7 character.

when you're casting level 1 spells, a CR 1 creature probably has triple the hit points of a level 1 character, equal or quite possibly even superior damage, and potentially some really nasty CC effects as a rider. you know how moon druid has a massive spike at level 2 where they basically put fighters to shame in melee damage because they can turn into a CR 1 beast? this is the same problem. nobody is worried that the moon druid can turn into a CR 1 beast by level 5. heck, i've seen a lot of people who feel that by level 3-4, it's not a concern (probably because HP have started to catch up, the low AC is really hurting, and the melee party members have started gaining class features that add some oomph to the melee characters).

at level 1, a CR 1 creature is just too much power to add, even with the potential drawback. as noted, the drawback is either not felt at all, or it causes massive problems. this is not a hallmark of spell balance. if you want to summon something at level 1, that something should not be CR 1.

[MrStabby]

i disagree, mostly because of how the spell scales once every 2 levels by 1 point of CR.

when you're casting level 9 spells, CR 9 creatures are useful, but no match for a level 17 character. when you're casting level 4 spells, CR 4 creatures are, again, useful, but probably not more impressive than a level 7 character.

when you're casting level 1 spells, a CR 1 creature probably has triple the hit points of a level 1 character, equal or quite possibly even superior damage, and potentially some really nasty CC effects as a rider. you know how moon druid has a massive spike at level 2 where they basically put fighters to shame in melee damage because they can turn into a CR 1 beast? this is the same problem. nobody is worried that the moon druid can turn into a CR 1 beast by level 5. heck, i've seen a lot of people who feel that by level 3-4, it's not a concern (probably because HP have started to catch up, the low AC is really hurting, and the melee party members have started gaining class features that add some oomph to the melee characters).

at level 1, a CR 1 creature is just too much power to add, even with the potential drawback. as noted, the drawback is either not felt at all, or it causes massive problems. this is not a hallmark of spell balance. if you want to summon something at level 1, that something should not be CR 1.


I kind of part agree and part disagree with this - yes it doesn't scale as well as characters do... but a level 9 character is more than just a level 5 spell slot. They get level 4 and lower slots, improved cantrips etc... Yes it scales less than characters do but does it scale as well as concentration should?

[SharkForce]

I kind of part agree and part disagree with this - yes it doesn't scale as well as characters do... but a level 9 character is more than just a level 5 spell slot. They get level 4 and lower slots, improved cantrips etc... Yes it scales less than characters do but does it scale as well as concentration should?

summons are basically fine. the only thing i would say is lacking is that right now, we don't have a lot of options for monsters to summon; with elementals, for example, you've got the base elementals, the [edit: this was supposed to be the invisible stalker, and there isn't much else because the next stuff is at CR 11 iirc], but that'll fix itself as more come out.

my point is that you can't scale them backwards and get the same results. you want a summoned creature to be useful, but not overbearing. a CR 9 creature summoned at level 17 is indeed useful but not overbearing, as is a CR 4 summoned at level 7. the CR 9 may be relatively a bit less useful, but it can definitely still help. it can contribute a good chunk of damage, control a large area of the battlefield, provide some useful abilities, etc. they may not always be the best use of concentration, but they'll almost always be a good use of concentration.

the problem comes with going down to level 1 summoning a CR 1. i really don't think we can make that leap safely. CR 1 creatures are very tough compared to a level 1 character and can have similar or better offense capabilities, and their HP don't need to last the whole day either, which makes them pretty ridiculous as a summon at level 1. i have no problem with the idea of a level 1 summoning spell, but it *really* can't be a CR 1 creature at that point, it's just too strong of an ability.

[MrStabby]

summons are basically fine. the only thing i would say is lacking is that right now, we don't have a lot of options for monsters to summon; with elementals, for example, you've got the base elementals, the , but that'll fix itself as more come out.

my point is that you can't scale them backwards and get the same results. you want a summoned creature to be useful, but not overbearing. a CR 9 creature summoned at level 17 is indeed useful but not overbearing, as is a CR 4 summoned at level 7. the CR 9 may be relatively a bit less useful, but it can definitely still help. it can contribute a good chunk of damage, control a large area of the battlefield, provide some useful abilities, etc. they may not always be the best use of concentration, but they'll almost always be a good use of concentration.

the problem comes with going down to level 1 summoning a CR 1. i really don't think we can make that leap safely. CR 1 creatures are very tough compared to a level 1 character and can have similar or better offense capabilities, and their HP don't need to last the whole day either, which makes them pretty ridiculous as a summon at level 1. i have no problem with the idea of a level 1 summoning spell, but it *really* can't be a CR 1 creature at that point, it's just too strong of an ability.

Ah right. My misunderstanding. I completely agree.