Racial Ability Scores

[DracoKnight]

So, I thought that I'd read somewhere that it's okay to rearrange your racial ability scores to fit what your character did in their backstory...am I crazy, or is this actually a part of the rules?

EXAMPLE: Giving a Tiefling a +1 Dex instead of a +1 Int.

[JNAProductions]

I think you're crazy.

However, as a DM, I'd allow it.

[DracoKnight]

I think you're crazy.

However, as a DM, I'd allow it.

Alright, it's nice to know that I'm officially insane :D

[Warwick]

I think you're crazy as well. I'd allow so long as it wasn't obviously abusive. "Yes, GM, I'm playing a vanilla human. But because of my, uh, character background, it makes more sense to have +6 to strength instead of +1 across the board."

[JNAProductions]

Really, it's just avoiding punishing you for picking a fluffy race. THe only time that +Int helps is for a Wizard, EK, or AT, so if you want to play anything else, it's basically useless.

I would not have an issue swapping that around so you could play a Tiefling Paladin, for instance, to the best of your ability.

[DracoKnight]

The character concept is that I'm a tiefling who's life goal is to become the greatest assassin who's ever lived. For the first time ever, our DM is making us use either the standard array or point buy. My character has a 15 Dex, and personally I feel he would not be the kind of character to get a +1 to Int (he's 16 years old). I feel that he would have a 16 in Dex, not out of "Oh, I just want my Finesse weapons to deal more damage!" But, I feel that someone who has the goal of becoming the greatest assassin of all time would have trained a little bit in the abilities that are important to what he wants to do. Even the reason he's traveling with the party fits into his goal - what better way to become the most legendary assassin than to kill a god? (We're running the Tyranny of Dragons)

[DracoKnight]

How would you convince a DM to let a player do this if they were reluctant? I haven't asked yet, but if they say "no" I would want to have a counter argument. Ultimately though, if they do say no as their final answer, I am going to abide by their decision.

[Warwick]

I'd point out that it's strictly worse than a half-elf, who gets the same +2 to charisma, but also gets +1 to two other attributes. Or, if it really bothers them that much, ask if you can play a tiefling-skinned half-elf. You won't have the associated demonic knickknacks, but I don't know how much being able to cast Hellish Rebuke once a day matters to you.

[Ralanr]

Really, it's just avoiding punishing you for picking a fluffy race. THe only time that +Int helps is for a Wizard, EK, or AT, so if you want to play anything else, it's basically useless.

I would not have an issue swapping that around so you could play a Tiefling Paladin, for instance, to the best of your ability.

Is the cha bonus not enough?

[JNAProductions]

AFB. I didn't remember their main bonus.

[Ralanr]

AFB. I didn't remember their main bonus.

+2 charisma

[JellyPooga]

This is one that depends entirely on your GM and whether your backstory supports it. For instance, just wanting to be the greatest assassin ever is not really sufficient to alter your racial modifiers. You could argue the same as a Dwarf and it wouldn't make a lot of sense or difference. The fact that you've put 15 into Dex is representative enough of your focus in that area. If, however, your argument went along the lines of "I'm a Tiefling descended from some high-Dex Devil", then yeah, I might allow it as a GM.

Racial modifiers represent the innate attributes of that race; Halflings are dexterous, Half-Orcs are strong and Dwarves are tough. That's just a part of what being a member of that race means. In 5ed, the designers (for whatever reason) decided that Tieflings are smart and charismatic. Unless you have a very compelling reason to change that, in a physiological sense, I think you're fighting a losing battle. Training has nothing to do with racial modifiers.

[Ralanr]

This is one that depends entirely on your GM and whether your backstory supports it. For instance, just wanting to be the greatest assassin ever is not really sufficient to alter your racial modifiers. You could argue the same as a Dwarf and it wouldn't make a lot of sense or difference. The fact that you've put 15 into Dex is representative enough of your focus in that area. If, however, your argument went along the lines of "I'm a Tiefling descended from some high-Dex Devil", then yeah, I might allow it as a GM.

Racial modifiers represent the innate attributes of that race; Halflings are dexterous, Half-Orcs are strong and Dwarves are tough. That's just a part of what being a member of that race means. In 5ed, the designers (for whatever reason) decided that Tieflings are smart and charismatic. Unless you have a very compelling reason to change that, in a physiological sense, I think you're fighting a losing battle. Training has nothing to do with racial modifiers.

It's genetics after all.

"But what about variant human vs gen-"
Genetics! That is all!

[JNAProductions]

Ralanr, I think you might be going insane.

Join DracoKnight in the loony bin!

[Ralanr]

Ralanr, I think you might be going insane.

Join DracoKnight in the loony bin!

Well sanity gets boring after awhile. I'm sure I shall tire of insanity eventually.

But not today!

[JellyPooga]

It's genetics after all.

"But what about variant human vs gen-"
Genetics! That is all!

Well, the genetic imperative of Humans is that they are versatile; able to adapt to whatever they put their mind to. So, yes, in the case of Humans (and Half-Elves), wanting to be the greatest assassin ever would influence where they get their focus. Tieflings do not have a "floating" stat bonus, so don't get that choice; they are, apparently genetically smart and charismatic (for some reason...personally I think Tielfings should be as diverse, if not more so than Humans, but then again I also think Tieflings should be planetouched descendants of demons and devils like they were back in 3ed, so my opinion might not count for much!).

[DracoKnight]

Well, the genetic imperative of Humans is that they are versatile; able to adapt to whatever they put their mind to. So, yes, in the case of Humans (and Half-Elves), wanting to be the greatest assassin ever would influence where they get their focus. Tieflings do not have a "floating" stat bonus, so don't get that choice; they are, apparently genetically smart and charismatic (for some reason...personally I think Tielfings should be as diverse, if not more so than Humans, but then again I also think Tieflings should be planetouched descendants of demons and devils like they were back in 3ed, so my opinion might not count for much!).

I agree with you 100%. I honestly think that they should have done a "Planetouched" race and have Aasimar and Tiefling be the subraces. That would honestly make the most sense to me. And then have the base race get a +1 that it can put where it wishes, with Aasimar getting +2 Wisdom and Tieflings getting +2 Charisma.

[JellyPooga]

I agree with you 100%. I honestly think that they should have done a "Planetouched" race and have Aasimar and Tiefling be the subraces. That would honestly make the most sense to me. And then have the base race get a +1 that it can put where it wishes, with Aasimar getting +2 Wisdom and Tieflings getting +2 Charisma.

Heh. I'd go with that. Think I might go write that down somewhere...

[Ralanr]

Technically they are descended from devils...just with a very very very big gap. I'm running off 4e lore (Cause that was the D&D books I bought when I wanted to get in. I like the pathfinder genetics base better) where their ancient empire as a whole made a deal (or a lot of big deals that the devils just said, "**** it, let's put some devil in you all) that changed them and their descendents forever.

So them being genetically smarter and charismatic isn't a stretch when you consider devils, who are smart and very convincing most of the time.

Then we have dragonborn, whose creation myths are pretty much myths and have no solid foundation (Then again, being born from the blood of a just killed god isn't too farfetched when you think of how Bahamut and Tiamat were born). Considering dragons are A) Strong as, "Why are we going to fight this monster?" and terrifying as, "No seriously, why are we not going the opposite direction?"

So naturally dragonborn are strong and charismatic.

"But what about kobolds dragon monkeys?"

Well humans apparently evolved from apes and we still have apes. So naturally Kobolds dragon monkeys would still exist. The fact that they can talk, use tools, and form societies just shows how much the draconic evolutionary chain trumps humans. Their monkeys are smarter then our monkeys.

Then humans rolled lucky.

Edit: Apparently we decided to share a bed with Neanderthals...We need stats for those guys.

[DracoKnight]

Heh. I'd go with that. Think I might go write that down somewhere...

I posted my merging of the two over in the Homebrew forum :)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427071-Planar-Touched-Race-(PEACH)-But-I-don-t-think-that-it-s-broken

[ThermalSlapShot]

My DM just gives everyone 3 points to put where we please (+3, +2/+1, or +1/+1/+1)

It works out pretty well. Half Elves don't really need the +2/+1/+1.

[Ralanr]

Half Elves don't really need the +2/+1/+1.

I honestly don't understand why they do. For a while I felt the race was broken.

[DracoKnight]

I honestly don't understand why they do. For a while I felt the race was broken.

Probably because their parent races get a crap-ton of stuff, whether it's the Wood-Elf's Mask of the Wild + Fleet of Foot, or the Variant Human's free Feat at level 1.

[Ralanr]

Probably because their parent races get a crap-ton of stuff, whether it's the Wood-Elf's Mask of the Wild + Fleet of Foot, or the Variant Human's free Feat at level 1.

They get charm advantage, darkvision, two skills of their choice, one extra language on top of common and elvish (Which is something that bugs me in D&D as a whole. You can have a character that knows more than one language even when it makes no sense to do so given that characters background. How does a half-orc who has lived in an orc tribe all his life able to read, speak, and write common? Languages are not easy!).

Half-elves seem like the child of variant humans and elves, but they should be the child of regular humans and elves. Variant isn't suppose to be very common!

Or only special humans have opportunity to mate with elves. Which makes more sense than I like :smallannoyed:.

[DracoKnight]

They get charm advantage, darkvision, two skills of their choice, one extra language on top of common and elvish (Which is something that bugs me in D&D as a whole. You can have a character that knows more than one language even when it makes no sense to do so given that characters background. How does a half-orc who has lived in an orc tribe all his life able to read, speak, and write common? Languages are not easy!).

Half-elves seem like the child of variant humans and elves, but they should be the child of regular humans and elves. Variant isn't suppose to be very common!

Or only special humans have opportunity to mate with elves. Which makes more sense than I like :smallannoyed:.

I know everything they get, and I still don't think that they're overpowered. I know that they're one of the more powerful races, I have no illusions there. But there power comes from their versatility. They're good for almost any build, which is a huge benefit, I'm not saying it's not; I just think there's more powerful things in the PHB.

And for us, the only humans in our DMs world are the Variant Humans. "Why else would you play as what you already are?" Our DM doesn't have an issue with feats, he likes the players being able to expand what they can do :D

[Ralanr]

"Why else would you play as what you already are?"

That's the kind of thinking I embrace and thus don't play humans often because of it. While I'm not a badass human, I'm also not a normal half-orc.

I'm not as snippy about Half-elves as I used to be, I just decided not to play them and don't care if people play them at the table I play at.

My DM doesn't give everyone feats at level one, but she does allow for feat/ASI's to be based on character level instead of class level (With the exception of rogue and fighter bonus ASI/Feats, which are considered class features). I'm glad for this since I don't have to feel too bad when I decide to multiclass, which is something I've never actually done.

[Zevox]

(Which is something that bugs me in D&D as a whole. You can have a character that knows more than one language even when it makes no sense to do so given that characters background. How does a half-orc who has lived in an orc tribe all his life able to read, speak, and write common? Languages are not easy!).
I can definitely agree with that. For example, making my Tiefling Warlock I had no idea how to explain him knowing Infernal. Seriously, unless a Tiefling was actually raised by a devil, I don't see why one would be much more likely than anyone else to learn the language. Maybe you could argue that their connection to it would drive some curiosity and make them want to learn it, but I think it's at least as likely that most would want nothing to do with it because that part of their heritage causes them little but trouble anyway.

[georgie_leech]

I can definitely agree with that. For example, making my Tiefling Warlock I had no idea how to explain him knowing Infernal. Seriously, unless a Tiefling was actually raised by a devil, I don't see why one would be much more likely than anyone else to learn the language. Maybe you could argue that their connection to it would drive some curiosity and make them want to learn it, but I think it's at least as likely that most would want nothing to do with it because that part of their heritage causes them little but trouble anyway.

This is a world where stabbing kobolds can give you intimate knowledge of the arcane forces powering the universe. "They just know it" seems applicable.

[DracoKnight]

This is a world where stabbing kobolds can give you intimate knowledge of the arcane forces powering the universe. "They just know it" seems applicable.

My DM's explanation is that everyone knows their racial languages (Elves know Elvish, Tieflings know Infernal, Dwarves know Dwarvish, and Humans know whatever they're around) and then Common was a language created by a council of powerful mages several millennia ago, and they infused it into virtually every living being so that everyone could communicate.

[Ralanr]

My DM's explanation is that everyone knows their racial languages (Elves know Elvish, Tieflings know Infernal, Dwarves know Dwarvish, and Humans know whatever they're around) and then Common was a language created by a council of powerful mages several millennia ago, and they infused it into virtually every living being so that everyone could communicate.

That makes every other language pointless while at the same time making common hold up to its name.

[DracoKnight]

That makes every other language pointless while at the same time making common hold up to its name.

It's all just for flavor, and not everything knows Common, even still. Everything knows the languages they know in the PHB and MM, but that's his reason for everything that knows Common to know it.

[PoeticDwarf]

I think you're crazy.

However, as a DM, I'd allow it.

Lol, I also think that he's crazy:smallsmile:

I would not allow it. Tiefling is a pretty strong race with nice features, but the problem is that if you want high cha, you don't want a +1 int.

If you say every half-elf can put the +2 in whatever he wants, and a mountain dwarf can get +2 in two things of his choice, everyone is going to play them.

A mountain dwarf wizard with +2 int and +2 con/dex is too OP.

[PoeticDwarf]

The character concept is that I'm a tiefling who's life goal is to become the greatest assassin who's ever lived. For the first time ever, our DM is making us use either the standard array or point buy. My character has a 15 Dex, and personally I feel he would not be the kind of character to get a +1 to Int (he's 16 years old). I feel that he would have a 16 in Dex, not out of "Oh, I just want my Finesse weapons to deal more damage!" But, I feel that someone who has the goal of becoming the greatest assassin of all time would have trained a little bit in the abilities that are important to what he wants to do. Even the reason he's traveling with the party fits into his goal - what better way to become the most legendary assassin than to kill a god? (We're running the Tyranny of Dragons)

With a DEX of 15, it's clear he already trained. You probably go for 11+1 in int. So he didn't train that much in int...

[DracoKnight]

Lol, I also think that he's crazy:smallsmile:

I would not allow it. Tiefling is a pretty strong race with nice features, but the problem is that if you want high cha, you don't want a +1 int.

If you say every half-elf can put the +2 in whatever he wants, and a mountain dwarf can get +2 in two things of his choice, everyone is going to play them.

A mountain dwarf wizard with +2 int and +2 con/dex is too OP.

I wouldn't even think about moving a race's +2 around. I'm just talking the +1 :D

[Plus1Sword]

That makes every other language pointless while at the same time making common hold up to its name.

Because there is absolutely no value in ensuring that someone doesn't know what you're talking about.

[Ralanr]

Because there is absolutely no value in ensuring that someone doesn't know what you're talking about.

Espionage stories

[Zevox]

This is a world where stabbing kobolds can give you intimate knowledge of the arcane forces powering the universe. "They just know it" seems applicable.
That's a gameplay abstraction that serves a purpose - it's meant to keep mechanics simple, so that you don't need to do dozens of different things to gain different boosts to different stats. Automatic languages aren't comparable to that: they basically represent what languages a character of that race would most likely understand by the time they're an adult. But it just doesn't make logical sense to assume that a Tiefling would have learned Infernal under ordinary circumstances.


My DM's explanation is that everyone knows their racial languages (Elves know Elvish, Tieflings know Infernal, Dwarves know Dwarvish, and Humans know whatever they're around) and then Common was a language created by a council of powerful mages several millennia ago, and they infused it into virtually every living being so that everyone could communicate.
The thing is that Infernal makes no sense as a racial language for Tieflings. They're mostly human, just with some devil blood. They're born into mostly or entirely human societies. They'd grow up speaking common, and it's at least as likely (if not more so) that their heritage would make them not want to learn the language as it is that it would make them want to. For almost every other race with a racial language it makes sense, under the assumption that it's either their native language or at least taught to them by their parents in addition to common if they grew up in a multicultural or human-dominated area, but that kind of thing doesn't apply to Tieflings.

Same holds true for Genasi getting Primordial, come to think of it; I just happened to be making a Tiefling when I realized this.

[Logosloki]

That makes every other language pointless while at the same time making common hold up to its name.
Sometimes it is great to be able to talk freely without others knowing. In a certain online game we ran a racial trade chat to encourage people to choose tauren. Then they removed racial languages and much fun was lost.

[Ralanr]

Sometimes it is great to be able to talk freely without others knowing. In a certain online game we ran a racial trade chat to encourage people to choose tauren. Then they removed racial languages and much fun was lost.

When did they remove racial chat?

[Naanomi]

Not everyone knows common, but every *player adventurer* knows it... It is a common skill amongst adventuresome types. Note the svirfneblin entry stating most deep-gnomes don't speak common, but PCs are always amongst those who do.

I agree on tiefling/gensai/assimar languages being wierd, I always assume they were born knowing it thanks to their extraplanar essence (water elementals just know aaquan, they don't study it as little baby elementals); which makes interesting parenting with fully verbal children as soon as the mechanics of speaking develop, and babies can understand parents once ears mature enough.

[rollingForInit]

I agree on tiefling/gensai/assimar languages being wierd, I always assume they were born knowing it thanks to their extraplanar essence (water elementals just know aaquan, they don't study it as little baby elementals); which makes interesting parenting with fully verbal children as soon as the mechanics of speaking develop, and babies can understand parents once ears mature enough.

Could also be that Primordial (or Infernal in the case of Tieflings) develop naturally alongside whatever else the child is taught. That is, if the Genasi grows up among humans and is taught Common, they'll always be as good at Primordial as they are at Common. Something magical about their language understanding that makes them perfect translators. But without any language at all, they wouldn't really know how to express themselves in Primordial either.

[PoeticDwarf]

I wouldn't even think about moving a race's +2 around. I'm just talking the +1 :D

Still see my point?

[DracoKnight]

Still see my point?

I thought that it was obvious that I did. As a DM, I would never give my players a +2 stat to stick wherever they wanted. And as a player, I would never ask for it. Now, the +1, I would definitely be more lenient :)

[WampDiesel]

My DM just gives everyone 3 points to put where we please (+3, +2/+1, or +1/+1/+1)

It works out pretty well. Half Elves don't really need the +2/+1/+1.

That is similar to how I am going to run character creation for my new campaign.

All races only get +1 to their main stat and instead all races get a floating +1 that can go anywhere. Allows for more variation in race class combos in a campaign where your race will be VERY important.

However it comes with the stipulation that half-elves cant have a +2 in anything other than CHA (+1/+1/+1/+1 is fine tho). Also half-elves will be sterile in my campaign and will be heavily stigmatized for world-related reasons. That has actually made one of my players want to be a half-elf but is completely unrelated to the topic at hand.