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Cade Shadow
2007-04-30, 05:16 PM
Forgive me if this should be in the character builder thread, but this is more in the abstract. What combo of classes (or prestige classes) would work best to make a jedi? Also what spells/powers/souldmelds/whatever would work best to represent different force powers?

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 05:28 PM
PsiWarrior, perhaps with a couple of levels from ToB and a Brilliant Energy sword.

A couple feats would also help. Grab a monks belt to get Wisdom to AC and dump armor for Bracer's of Armor.

If the armor and weapon proficiencies count as feats then use the trick from Fiendish Codex I to switch them to more appropriate feats.

Pump Wisdom really high.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-30, 05:30 PM
Max out autohypnosis too.

Tellah
2007-04-30, 05:31 PM
Seconded; go PsiWarrior/Swordsage and you won't need the monk's belt.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 05:34 PM
Swordsage picks up Wisdom to AC?

I didn't know that. I really should read ToB one of these days. I have it lieing around but I have just glanced through it.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-30, 05:38 PM
At 2nd level, and whilst wearing light armour :)

Ramza00
2007-04-30, 05:38 PM
Wis to AC in light armor (and customer service also says wis to AC is no armor)

There are a couple jedi builds
Ardent/Slayer
Psion/Slayer
Psychic Warrior Slayer

Make the slayer part an institution (the sith) similar to how urban ranger can choose a guild or institution to have as favored enemies.

What powers you select though is based off what type of jedi you want to be.

Certain Jedi's will forget about slayer and go pure psion. For example the emporer is just a pure psion with a skilled weapon lightsaber.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 05:39 PM
Damm. Swordsage gets a better wisdom bonus than monk. Very nice.

Go Swordsage 2/PsiWarrior 18 then.

--
I just realized that you can get Wisdom to Ac 3 times.

Monk Belt, Swordsage 2, and Saint all give stacking Wisdom to Ac bonuses.

For a grand total of 1.5 times your wisdom score to AC.

At ECL 20 that would give you over 50 points of AC just from Wisdom.

EDIT: What is Slayer in?

Ramza00
2007-04-30, 05:48 PM
Slayer is another name for Illithid Slayer. Slayer is what they call it in the SRD. It is better than Illithid Slayer for your favored enemies can be something that isn't illithids just has to be psionic.

You can't get Monk Belt+Swordsage this is because both Swordsage and Monk have the same name for the ability. Sure they work mechanically slightly different, but this is enough for the rules to say bonus from the same source don't stack.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 05:52 PM
Slayer is another name for Illithid Slayer. Slayer is what they call it in the SRD. It is better than Illithid Slayer for your favored enemies can be something that isn't illithids just has to be psionic.
Ah. I thought that that might be it but I didn't realize that the SRD removed the Illithid restriction.


You can't get Monk Belt+Swordsage this is because both Swordsage and Monk have the same name for the ability. Sure they work mechanically slightly different, but this is enough for the rules to say bonus from the same source don't stack.

Actually they stack. Unnamed bonus from different sources. The Monks AC bonus is not the same source or ability as the Swordsage's AC bonus.

Or do you have FAQ/Errata/page reference that supports what you are saying?

Ramza00
2007-04-30, 06:00 PM
Actually they stack. Unnamed bonus from different sources. The Monks AC bonus is not the same source or ability as the Swordsage's AC bonus.

Or do you have FAQ/Errata/page reference that supports what you are saying?
Same name=same source.

You can ask customer service on this, I know how they will respond ;)

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 06:04 PM
Meh. CustServe sucks. I have got both answers to a question out of them multiple times.

And doesn't RAW actually say same source, NOT same name?

They are generally the same thing but their are instances where they aren't the same.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-30, 06:06 PM
I think the intent is clear that they shouldn't stack. Ask Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060904a)agrees.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 06:12 PM
Ah. Meh. I still think taht they are wrong but I won't argue it after thsi post.




Q: Does the AC bonus of the swordsage (from Tome of Battle) stack with the AC bonus of the monk, even though they are both based on Wisdom modifier?

A: No. The swordsage’s AC bonus, allowing the swordsage to apply her Wisdom bonus to her armor class, mimics the ability of the monk’s AC bonus. Since these abilities share the same name and have the same effect, they will not stack.



Lets see what is wrong with the Answer.



First is the Swordsage ability mimicking the monks AC bonus. This is clearly wrong as the swordsage bonus removes numerous restrictions from the monk version and it doesn't provide the other benefits of the monks AC bonus.



The second mistake in their explanation is that the abilities have the same effect. This is clearly incorrect. The abilities are quite different. Swordsage doesn't give the AC bonus from levels. Monk restricts it to no armor. Clearly not the same effect.

Turcano
2007-04-30, 06:20 PM
Another item suggestion: pick up a ring of telekinesis as soon as you can afford one. Force-users use telekinesis like crazy, so a use-activated item will probably save you a ton of money in the long run. Combine with maxxed-out ranks in Intimidate and you've got a pretty decent dun möch going on, if you're into that.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 06:26 PM
Lets see what is wrong with the Answer.

It doesn't jive with your munchkin world view?




First is the Swordsage ability mimicking the monks AC bonus. This is clearly wrong as the swordsage bonus removes numerous restrictions from the monk version and it doesn't provide the other benefits of the monks AC bonus.



The second mistake in their explanation is that the abilities have the same effect. This is clearly incorrect. The abilities are quite different. Swordsage doesn't give the AC bonus from levels. Monk restricts it to no armor. Clearly not the same effect.


Rules lawyering to twist the intent and gaining a nonsensical mechanical advantage- cool!

Ikkitosen
2007-04-30, 06:28 PM
Deflect Arrows too, obviously. And Danger Sense (although there might be a psionic power that does it better than the feat). Get precognitive offense and defense, since these almost shout "lightsaber combat" at you.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-30, 06:28 PM
Deflect Arrows too, obviously. And Danger Sense (although there might be a psionic power that does it better than the feat). Get precognitive offense and defense, since these almost shout "lightsaber combat" at you.

Ramza00
2007-04-30, 06:30 PM
Ah. Meh. I still think taht they are wrong but I won't argue it after thsi post.
Lets see what is wrong with the Answer.
First is the Swordsage ability mimicking the monks AC bonus. This is clearly wrong as the swordsage bonus removes numerous restrictions from the monk version and it doesn't provide the other benefits of the monks AC bonus.
The second mistake in their explanation is that the abilities have the same effect. This is clearly incorrect. The abilities are quite different. Swordsage doesn't give the AC bonus from levels. Monk restricts it to no armor. Clearly not the same effect.
[/left]

And if you want to argue RAW then Swordsage only gives wis to AC in light armor, it says nothing about unarmored getting wis to AC. Of course Customer Service, the Sage, and other people have said the intent was for it to be both light armor and less.

darofar
2007-04-30, 06:30 PM
Yes but the common sense says "don't stack, my little padawan"

Ramza00
2007-04-30, 06:31 PM
Ah. Meh. I still think taht they are wrong but I won't argue it after thsi post.
Lets see what is wrong with the Answer.
First is the Swordsage ability mimicking the monks AC bonus. This is clearly wrong as the swordsage bonus removes numerous restrictions from the monk version and it doesn't provide the other benefits of the monks AC bonus.
The second mistake in their explanation is that the abilities have the same effect. This is clearly incorrect. The abilities are quite different. Swordsage doesn't give the AC bonus from levels. Monk restricts it to no armor. Clearly not the same effect.
[/left]

And if you want to argue RAW then Swordsage only gives wis to AC in light armor, it says nothing about unarmored getting wis to AC. Of course Customer Service, the Sage, and other people have said the intent was for it to be both light armor and less. Especially with the monk adaptation of swordsage (which still retains the wis to ac in light armor but is not proficient in any armor)

Fax Celestis
2007-04-30, 06:44 PM
Deflect Arrows too, obviously. And Danger Sense (although there might be a psionic power that does it better than the feat). Get precognitive offense and defense, since these almost shout "lightsaber combat" at you.

Not just Deflect Arrows, but Return Shot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#returnShot)

Ikkitosen
2007-04-30, 06:47 PM
Great idea! Sucky mechanics though.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-30, 07:07 PM
It doesn't jive with your munchkin world view?
No. I don't munchkin. You can't seem to grasp the fact that how I play ingame is 99% of the time far different from how I respond to threads on these boards.

Honestly WoTC's position on this particular item seems to contradict their own reasons for the position.

And frankly, why does it matter? Its not like it causes any problems for the Saint Swordasge 18 wit ha monk bealt to have an AC of around 70 or higher at ECL 20.

Woop De Freaking do. They are hard to hit.


Rules lawyering to twist the intent and gaining a nonsensical mechanical advantage- cool!

Not really. Telling WoTC that they are wrong isn't rules lawyering. They are very different abilities, come from different sources, and nothing official says that they don't stack.

WoTC seems to have thsi problem with cracking down on any potential "exploit" that appears where it concerns non casters yet ignores glaring exploits with spells. Maybe if they allowed the non caster "exploits" the fighter types would end up useful in the endgame.

KIDS
2007-04-30, 07:09 PM
One way is via psionics; Either Psion or Psychic Warrior are both great choices, depending on your style.

The other way, more martial is (I'm actually playing one):

Bard/Fighter/Dervish/Occult Slayer

Via this route you get the following:

Good skill at fighting with a Single Lightsaber (Longsword, preferrably flaming or with brilliant energy) = Lightsaber
Mage Hand = minor telekinesis
Message = minor telepathy
Ghost Sound = lesser mind trick
Swift Expeditious retreat = Amazing "burst" jump capability as seen many times (+30 ft. and +12 speed bonus to jump)
Cure Light Wounds = Minor Healing abilities, Recovery via Self Meditation etc.
Feather Fall = ability to survive otherwise deadly falls
Whirling Blade = Lightsaber Throw
Lots of skills = Acrobatics and Knowledge/Spellcraft Base
Inspire Courage/competence = Jedi are an inspiring presence on the battlefield
Suggestion X times/day = Mind Trick, exactly as Jedi have it
Dervish = amazing and flashy, plus effective style of lightsaber combat. Add TWF if you want dual lightsabers
Occult Slayer = amazing antimage and anti-mind affecting abilities; Deflect spell is downright awesome, Mind Blank also fits in very well, Auravision is also great.


I'm currently lvl 4 and having great fun with it; from lvl 2 onwards (Bard 2), you can call yourself (by your abilities) a Jedi fully in your own right. At high levels, you're Bard 6/Ftr 2/Dervish 7/Occult Slayer 5 and both a D&D mechanically strong character as well as really flavorful.

Dr. Weasel
2007-04-30, 10:09 PM
I'm a bit surprised that Battle Sorcerers haven't been mentioned. Yes, they get fewer spells known than even normal Sorcerers, but you won't actually need that many spells at all.
It seems like the spells you'd go for would be Telekinesis-y spells (Mage Hand, Levitate, Telekinesis), a few enchantments (Charm, Suggest), a few divinations (Detect Thoughts, Locate Person) and maybe some house-ruled electric versions of Burning Hands and Cone of Cold if that's your thing.
You'd need Heighten Spell to avoid wasting your precious precious spells known (which would be pretty save-heavy) and probably Smiting Spell or Arcane Strike for combat effectiveness. Eschew Materials would be big in avoiding un-Jedi-like component pouches.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-04-30, 10:26 PM
I think swordsages fit the bill, with alot of focus on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart.

Edit: Oh wait, Iron Heart's for Warblades. Maybe just martial adepts in general.

KIDS
2007-05-01, 05:50 AM
Battle Sorcerer is fine, as are most Gish builds (Eldritch Knight via Paladin/Sorcerer etc.) but they lack one thing: acrobatics. With them, you might have good spellcasting but you are stationary and can't zip around too much.

Do Swordsage/Warblade have tumble/jump/balance as class skills?

Skjaldbakka
2007-05-01, 05:52 AM
Soulknife 1/Wizard enough to qualify for mindbender/Mindbender until you get push the weak mind/Master of the Unseen Hand.

Force Grip, 'lightsaber', 'jedi mind trick'.

Ikkitosen
2007-05-01, 06:16 AM
Maybe that new Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) PrC would work well - quick, flashy but fragile fighting, combined with the "powers" to protect yourself and others via spells.

Caelestion
2007-05-01, 07:53 AM
Surely, a Soulknife/Psion is effectively a Jedi? Gestalt rules would be kinder though.

LeeMon
2007-05-02, 05:37 PM
During my experiments creating my own variant of the SWRPG rules, I formed the Jedi as a gestalt mishmash of Swordsage and Psychic Warrior.

My overall opinion matched that of a lot of others here: Psionics closely resembles Force abilities; ToB maneuvers bring a lot of excitement to lightsaber combat; and Jedi have a lot of abilities that resemble monks and swordsages.

As for a conventional build, I'd consider swordsage/psychic warrior/war mind. I don't have ToB in front of me; is there a ToB prestige class that advances psionics?

Tellah
2007-05-02, 06:14 PM
As for a conventional build, I'd consider swordsage/psychic warrior/war mind. I don't have ToB in front of me; is there a ToB prestige class that advances psionics?

No, but it would be quite a simple matter to convert the Jade Phoenix Mage.

Incidentally, I really, really want to play a Gestalt Warblade//Psion/Thrallherd. Paul Atreides, anyone? Spice must flow!

Caelestion
2007-05-02, 06:51 PM
Half the idea of playing a Jedi is the lightsabre though - otherwise all you have a sword-fighting monk. Hence why I suggested the Soulknife.

Tellah
2007-05-02, 06:59 PM
Half the idea of playing a Jedi is the lightsabre though - otherwise all you have a sword-fighting monk. Hence why I suggested the Soulknife.

Yeah, but Jedi don't generate lightsabers with their brains, or enchant them on a daily basis, or reshape them to suit their needs.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-02, 07:07 PM
Brilliant Energy covers light sabers almost perfectly.

Human Paragon 3
2007-05-02, 07:13 PM
Yeah, but Jedi don't generate lightsabers with their brains, or enchant them on a daily basis, or reshape them to suit their needs.

No, but it's all about the image of igniting the light saber/mind blade. Right now, I have a soul knife in my campaign (renamed Sage Knight to fit the setting) and he is very jedi-like. Took a home brewed feat to really nail the flavor though.

People often complain about how weak the soul knife is, but thats because you're playing high-power DnD. In a setting where magic is less prevalent (and more specifically magical items are hard to come by), the Soul Knife becomes a very powerful class.

Caelestion
2007-05-02, 07:14 PM
Yes Tippy, but considering that the absolute cheapest brilliant energy weapon is 50,000 gp, it's very definitely a high-level option only.

Tellah, no they don't, but technically, their power with the Force is what drives the lightsabre to greater ability. Ultimately, of course, the full package simply can't be emulated completely.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-02, 07:17 PM
I thought that non force users couldn't really use lightsabrer's because they tended to chop them selves to pieces as the blade was weightless.

Without force sensitivity you tended to chop your head off because you couldn't feel the weight of the blade or tell where it was.

MeklorIlavator
2007-05-02, 07:19 PM
On the wizard's boards, they decided that a magic item of flame blade(at will) was the best idea for a light saber. I lost the link, but I do remember that they put alot of thought into it.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-05-02, 07:56 PM
Warlock.

Take that eldritch blast shape Metamagic Rod equivalent and stick Eldritch Glaive on it. Add that to flight, Beguiling Influence, and a Ring of Telekinesis, and you've got your Jedi.

Caelestion
2007-05-02, 07:58 PM
You could make telekinetic and telepathic invocations you know. Really drum up the idea of the Warlock-Jedi.

Talkkno
2007-05-02, 08:23 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=799964
This might be of great help ^^.

Construct
2007-05-02, 09:08 PM
Unfortunately, a brilliant energy blade wouldn't work for a lightsaber as it would pass straight through nonliving matter, leaving it untouched. Perhaps a flaming great-cleaving bastard sword with limited morphing and sizing...and a vorpal-like ability that lops off hands as it asks 'Who Thog daddy now?' :thog:

Manave_E_Sulanul
2007-05-02, 09:32 PM
I have a gestalt Monk/Telepath with all the the fun telekinetic and "mind trick powers" who wields a Brilliant Energy flaming longsword using that feat from Eberron that I can't recall the name of. <Something> of Steel I think. It worked pretty well and by level 13 I had most everything I needed to be the essential Yoda.

Human Paragon 3
2007-05-02, 10:00 PM
Flurry of Blades?