The new girl: Are the good guys in trouble? [Spoilers]

[mikeejimbo]

She's been trained as a Mystic Theurge for two years. Now, I'm not saying that Mystic Theurge is an extremely powerful class, but it does mean that she must be a pretty decent level to have gotten into the class. What's more is that she cast a 4th level Cleric spell. They don't get that until level 7. So if she was a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4, she'd be level 10, which is a formidable threat. Aren't most of the good guy NPCs around 5 to 7?

[evileeyore]

The 'good guys' are around 10-12th.

However as it has been mentioned, Lord hinjo's Soldiers and Castle Guardians are for the most part at max 5th. So expect her to have a very merry day wreacking havoc in the castle.

[mikeejimbo]

Well, I was including the NPCs in "good guys". She's no match for the PCs, certainly.

Edit: Yeah, I said that in my original post


Aren't most of the good guy NPCs around 5 to 7?

Unfortunately, the PCs might not be nearby.

[Twilight Jack]

Mystic Theurge is a hideously powerful Prestige Class. Think about it, two seperate levels worth of spellcasting ability for every level you take. Compare this to merely trying to multiclass wizard with cleric. At level 12, you've got a Wiz6/Clr6, capable of 3rd level spells vs. a Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurge 6, capable of 5th level spells from both types. Sure, you lose the other class abilities of Wizards and Clerics, but no one ever became a wizard for the familiar (just look at V).

Edited: For record, Tsukiko is level 10-13, if Inflict Critical is her most powerful negative energy spell. If she were lvl 14 or above, she'd have access to Harm.

[jindra34]

They would have a better chance getting direct divine intervention...

[Demented]

It also looks like she has Fly and a few ray spells as well.

[Solo]

Mystic Theurge is a hideously powerful Prestige Class. Think about it, two seperate levels worth of spellcasting ability for every level you take. Compare this to merely trying to multiclass wizard with cleric. At level 12, you've got a Wiz6/Clr6, capable of 3rd level spells vs. a Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurge 6, capable of 5th level spells from both types. Sure, you lose the other class abilities of Wizards and Clerics, but no one ever became a wizard for the familiar (just look at V).

Mystic theurge? Powerful? What?

[Xanthos]

Mystic Theurge is a hideously powerful Prestige Class. Think about it, two seperate levels worth of spellcasting ability for every level you take. Compare this to merely trying to multiclass wizard with cleric. At level 12, you've got a Wiz6/Clr6, capable of 3rd level spells vs. a Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurge 6, capable of 5th level spells from both types. Sure, you lose the other class abilities of Wizards and Clerics, but no one ever became a wizard for the familiar (just look at V).

Not to claim that Mystic Theurge isn't an incredible PrC (it is), but it's tempered by the fact that you're 1 and 1/2 spell levels behind your respective "pure" casters. While V could throw around 5d6 fireballs at character level 5, a mystic theurge can't until level 8, and they don't get max level 10d6 fireballs until 13. And whereas V can throw around a Prismatic Spray or Mass Hold Person at his/her level, the theurge has to wait until they cap out the PrC at 16 (at which point they'll have to go one of their "pure" classes until epic levels)

[Ellisar]

Mystic Theurge is a hideously powerful Prestige Class. Think about it, two seperate levels worth of spellcasting ability for every level you take. Compare this to merely trying to multiclass wizard with cleric. At level 12, you've got a Wiz6/Clr6, capable of 3rd level spells vs. a Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurge 6, capable of 5th level spells from both types. Sure, you lose the other class abilities of Wizards and Clerics, but no one ever became a wizard for the familiar (just look at V).

Or... a wizard 6/cleric 6 is a hideously crappy build, that will loose of you compare it to anything but commoner 12.

Seriously, a Wiz 3/clr 3/ mystic theurge 6 might be capable of casting a lot of diffrent 5th level spells, but she still cant cast more spells per round that a wizard of the same level, who will have up to 6th level spells ready because he kept his focus. In a straight fight, that means that the wizard will be spending the first 1-4 rounds, depending on stats and build, casting disintegrate at the mystic theurge, while the poor dual casting class is forced to rely on pathetic hit point damage to kill the wizard.

Always remember that a spellcasters power rise exponentially, depending on the maximum spell level that he/she can cast, and thus a mystic theurge will always be on the weak side compared to a focused full caster. The mystic theurge truly excels on his/her own, or in very small parties where all the roles cant really be filled, but he/she will by no means be able to compete with a full caster level cleric or wizard build when it comes to raw magical power.

EDIT: SIG guy: Nice piece of hardware! I am a P226 owner/worshipper myself... SIGs rock!

[Solo]

I assume you're talking to me?

Yup, its a good gun. Comes in a nice set of calibers too.

I hear the smaller ones make good for CCW.

ps. Click on the sig for a surprise!

[mikeejimbo]

Always remember that a spellcasters power rise exponentially, depending on the maximum spell level that he/she can cast, and thus a mystic theurge will always be on the weak side compared to a focused full caster. The mystic theurge truly excels on his/her own, or in very small parties where all the roles cant really be filled, but he/she will by no means be able to compete with a full caster level cleric or wizard build when it comes to raw magical power.

Yeah, I tend to agree with you, which is why I said it wasn't extremely powerful. However, given her level, she might not be stopped until a PC is called in. Or at least, a higher-level NPC.

[Aquillion]

Mystic Theurge is a hideously powerful Prestige Class.Not really. Two things:

First, a spellcaster's real power is always in their highest-level spells--people generally don't come into a major fight (ie. one they might actually lose) flinging around weaker ones. A Mystic Theurge is always at least one level behind in spells. That hurts.

Second, you can only cast one spell at once. It doesn't do a mystic theurge any good to have all those extra spells of a second class in the back of their head, since they're only casting one at once, and the enemy wizard or cleric is going to be casting a better one almost every time. At any given time, a Mystic Theurge can choose to be a weak wizard or an extremely weak cleric (they've given up more cleric abilities than they did wizard abilities, remember: half the hd, no more armored spellcasting, no more cleric BAB, no more good fort save, no more turning advancement. These things are rather more significent than giving up a familar.)

On top of that, they're suffering to their save DCs and ability to overcome SR (although some feats can help here); that makes it hard for them to do, well, anything to someone of equal level. Overcoming saves/SR as if you're three levels lower is a big hit.

And (although this doesn't matter at level 10, if that's what she is), a Mystic Theurge can't even keep being a Mystic Theurge. It only goes for 10 levels, so once they're level 16 that's it. Unless they can trick their way into another dual-progression class, the abilities they've given up their best spells and many key cleric abilities for stop advancing completely, making them even weaker at level 20.

...with that said, I would imagine a Mystic Theurge would be somewhat less awful at this level of pitched battle, just because they're probably going to be getting a chance to cast spells until they run out. That gives them a benefit from their nearly-doubled spell reserves. And since she's mostly aiming at mooks, having lower-level spells doesn't hurt as much...

[Niveus Candidus]

Mystic Theurges are anything but spectacular. They take a lot of work to twink. I once unleashed a nasty Ur Priest Mystic on some PCs at an LG convention, but it took a lot of work to get him good.

Compare that to a shadowdancer. Easy to become, doesn't weaken you significantly to qualify (PC perspective) and you end up with amazing abilities.

[EvilElitest]

I assume you're talking to me?

Yup, its a good gun. Comes in a nice set of calibers too.

I hear the smaller ones make good for CCW.

ps. Click on the sig for a surprise!


Ugggg, the NRA. I don't like guns

ANyways, a MT is not a very good build at all, but i do admit you have a point considering her level
from,
EE

[Solo]

Wasn't talking to you, EE.

So far, Xykon's got a new ally and is headed to the throneroom... there's better be something special in there to stop him, as all the high level characters seem to be outside.

[Thexare Blademoon]

Consider though that this gives her access to a lot of spells, which can be very important in this kind of battle (that is, the *censored*ing huge kind), especially when a lot of her foes will be of a lower level so the higher spells aren't as important.

I'm not saying Mystic Theurges are good in normal situations, but I do think that she'll be able to help quite a bit here.

[jindra34]

The good guys were in trouble the moment Roy fell... this is just making the hole deeper...

[Twilight Jack]

Mystic Theurges are anything but spectacular. They take a lot of work to twink. I once unleashed a nasty Ur Priest Mystic on some PCs at an LG convention, but it took a lot of work to get him good.

Compare that to a shadowdancer. Easy to become, doesn't weaken you significantly to qualify (PC perspective) and you end up with amazing abilities.

That has not been my experience. Then again, my experience with Mystic Theurge has been as a PC who played a hardcore support role within a party which also contained a sorcerer and a cleric (6 players + a DM). Although the pure arcane or divine casters had access to bigger spells, my Theurge was the character that consistently provided the significant outlier with which the DM had to contend. When the Sorcerer with a 19 Charisma is looking at you and asking, "You're not out of spells, yet?!?", you know you're doing something right. As for the Wizard portion, I specialized in Transmutation, which meshed quite nicely with the support nature of the Cleric side. In the meantime, I could hold off hordes of smaller enemies almost indefinitely while buffing the party's front line endlessly for the bigger threats.

When the character finally died due to some bad dice rolls, the rest of the party found that they could no longer tackle encounters of CRs they had breezed through only days before. The DM had to seriously adjust things to avoid an inadvertent TPK (there's that acronym again). The rest of the players (not their characters) ended up resenting this fact so much that when they finally got back to a city where they could get what they needed to perform a Resurrection, I had the character refuse to return, having gone on to a "better place." I then created a Rogue.

[Mad Scientist]

I think the good guys are in serious trouble because they didn't expect a breach from INSIDE the castle. Now stopping the hobgoglin army is kind of trival because Xykon + new assistant are heading right for the throne room.

[Solo]

Huh, mystic theurge is starting to sound more appealing.....

[Kef]

So far, Xykon's got a new ally and is headed to the throneroom... there's better be something special in there to stop him, as all the high level characters seem to be outside.

The rest of the Sapphire Guard is inside though, with the most experienced in the throne room. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html)

I don't know enough about D&D to speculate much, but I think the battle's close enough now that Tsukiko will be able to tip the balance a bit.

[mikeejimbo]

ANyways, a MT is not a very good build at all, but i do admit you have a point considering her level

Yeah, I admitted from the start that I didn't think it had as much to do with the class as the level, since I said "Not that the Mystic Theurge is extremely powerful."

Though, I did think it may turn into a Mystic Theurge discussion. Remember, she could be even LESS optimized, and be a Sorcerer/Cleric. Or Druid, instead of cleric. Or technically, even a Ranger. (They all get inflict, don't they?) And I believe wizards also get Animate Dead spells.

Also, she could be higher than level 10. Xykon asked for her best negative energy spell, which only means that she does not yet have access to Harm. She might have access to some of the Inflict, Mass spells, but wouldn't waste it on one target.

Since you don't get 6th level spells until Cleric 11, and Harm is a 6th level spell, she could be as high as level 13.

One more thing, slightly OT: Solo, I just noticed that the one link in your thread is to a post of mine, quoting another post. Small world, eh?

[Solo]

Its a small, small world.

Say, would a Wizard 1 with precocious apprentice/ cleric 3/MT X
be a legit build? Cause that wouldn't be so bad.... You'd only lose one level of clric and gain a bunch of bonus levels of wizard. For the Win.

[EYanyo]

The rest of the Sapphire Guard is inside though, with the most experienced in the throne room. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html)

I don't know enough about D&D to speculate much, but I think the battle's close enough now that Tsukiko will be able to tip the balance a bit.
Whoever said they were in the throne room? I took Hinjo's instructions to mean that they would be outside the tower, protecting it from being penetrated. 1) They never expected anyone to fly into the tower, all they planned for was a physical attack from the ground. 2) None of the paladins know how important the throne room is, they just know that the tower is important, so it is logical that they would just defend that.

Further Reading (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html)

[mikeejimbo]

I'm not familiar with Precocious Apprentice, so I wouldn't be sure.

However, I've always been a fan of the Gestalt "replica" Mystic Theurge: Cleric//Wizard 20, IS the win.

[Solo]

In a nutshell, PC lets you cast one second level spell as a first level character.

Once you level up, its like you have an extra second level spellslot.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a

[mikeejimbo]

Oh, that's pretty neat. Though I think that most DMs wouldn't allow you to use that to qualify for Mystic Theurge. I know that mine wouldn't, anyway.

[Solo]

True.

Would be full of so much Awesome, though, if it would fly... at worst, you'd be only one level behind as a cleric.

[Tredrick]

Mystic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030402a)


Since it is online, y'all should have a look if you do not know the specifics.

[Kresalak]

It wouldn't really be very good, since Cleric casting isn't worth much as a Wizard. You can already learn every spell on the Cleric list if you can get a scroll of it, and the vast majority of those spells are inferior to yours. All being a Mystic Theurge does is give you lots of spell slots, which is only useful in a situation exactly like the one in the comic.

[mikeejimbo]

Mystic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030402a)


Since it is online, y'all should have a look if you do not know the specifics.

Oh, good idea! Thanks for the link, it should be helpful.

I'm currently playing in a Gestalt Campaign as a Cleric//Duskblade. I asked the DM how he'd handle prestige classes, and he said we could take two if we qualified for both. Now, I have two levels as a Half-Water Elemental//Cleric (because of a +2 LA on the Half-Water Elemental template). See, the DM said "Well, I'm going to let you play as anything you want, and to offset the Level Adjustment, it'll be gestalt with one of your classes being your race"

Anyway, this just means that my Duskblade is two levels behind. To offset this, I'm thinking that for two levels, I'll take Mystic Theurge//Duskblade, and then go Cleric//Duskblade for the rest of the way.

Anyway, that's where it ties into the Mystic Theurge discussion.

[Solo]

Actually, clerics know all spells in the cleric spell list on the SRD.

I know clerics aren't as "good" as wizards, but a cleric isn't anything to sneeze at either... CoDzilla, anyone?

[Cade Shadow]

the General dude is in the throne room. Anyway to get a concrete level on him? he might be able to hold Xykon off until eh PCs show up.

You know what general I'm talking about, its the: "I'm going to guard the throne room, if I do not see you again in this world then we shall have a drink in the next," guy.

[jindra34]

the General dude is in the throne room. Anyway to get a concrete level on him? he might be able to hold Xykon off until eh PCs show up.

You know what general I'm talking about, its the: "I'm going to guard the throne room, if I do not see you again in this world then we shall have a drink in the next," guy.

His name is O-Chul i think

[Kresalak]

Actually, clerics know all spells in the cleric spell list on the SRD.

I know clerics aren't as "good" as wizards, but a cleric isn't anything to sneeze at either... CoDzilla, anyone?
Oh, Clerics are better than Wizards, but individual Cleric spells are inferior to individual Wizard spells.

[Solo]

Hmm... any way to do it the other way around? Like Precocious Apprentice, cleric version?

[mikeejimbo]

I'm not well-versed in using all my sources, but it does seem like there must be something.

[Geilan]

Like Chosen Follower or something?

[mikeejimbo]

Chosen Follower sounds familiar. What's it do?

[GoC]

Oh, Clerics are better than Wizards, but individual Cleric spells are inferior to individual Wizard spells.

I've heard this a lot and have always wondered why. Why is it CoDzillas are considered better than wizards? Are they still better after 21st level?

[brian c]

I've heard this a lot and have always wondered why. Why is it CoDzillas are considered better than wizards? Are they still better after 21st level?

Anyone with epic spellcasting pretty much "wins" D&D; Wizard>Cleric at that point.


Oh, good idea! Thanks for the link, it should be helpful.

I'm currently playing in a Gestalt Campaign as a Cleric//Duskblade. I asked the DM how he'd handle prestige classes, and he said we could take two if we qualified for both. Now, I have two levels as a Half-Water Elemental//Cleric (because of a +2 LA on the Half-Water Elemental template). See, the DM said "Well, I'm going to let you play as anything you want, and to offset the Level Adjustment, it'll be gestalt with one of your classes being your race"

Anyway, this just means that my Duskblade is two levels behind. To offset this, I'm thinking that for two levels, I'll take Mystic Theurge//Duskblade, and then go Cleric//Duskblade for the rest of the way.

Anyway, that's where it ties into the Mystic Theurge discussion.

Actually, Mystic Theurge is given as the example of a class that could be forbidden in Gestalt, because of the dual-spellcasting progression. That being said, if your DM is fine with it then cool.

[mikeejimbo]

Anyone with epic spellcasting pretty much "wins" D&D; Wizard>Cleric at that point.

Forgive my ignorance, but don't Clerics also get Epic Spellcasting?


Actually, Mystic Theurge is given as the example of a class that could be forbidden in Gestalt, because of the dual-spellcasting progression. That being said, if your DM is fine with it then cool.Yeah, I've read the gestalt alternate rules, and it basically seemed to say that dealing with Prestige Classes is totally up to the DM. Though I was thinking about it, and it might not be as effective as I thought.

[Laesin]

It wouldn't really be very good, since Cleric casting isn't worth much as a Wizard. You can already learn every spell on the Cleric list if you can get a scroll of it, and the vast majority of those spells are inferior to yours. All being a Mystic Theurge does is give you lots of spell slots, which is only useful in a situation exactly like the one in the comic.

Nope, many, many cleric spells are not available to wizards. Divine and Arcane magic are very distinct although the bard blurs the line a little. For example most spells with an alignment descriptor are divine as are all spells that use positive energy to heal, and most spells that use negative energy to injure.

[Josh_Kablack]

Mystic Theurge is a hideously powerful Prestige Class.

I could not disagree more, but it does work for a minion of Xylon, as she can presumably have 60+ zombies minions running (or at least lurching around) at only 8th level.

[Lord_Kimboat]

Actually, I don't think it might quite as bad for the throne room good guys - Tsukiko is just clearing off the parapets and then probably going to head towards Redcloak.

What do people think are the odds of her becoming a new, recurring NPC villain? I can see her really interfering with Redcloak, who lets face it is the brains of the operation, by sucking up to Xykon and trying to edge Redcloak out.

[jindra34]

Actually, I don't think it might quite as bad for the throne room good guys - Tsukiko is just clearing off the parapets and then probably going to head towards Redcloak.

What do people think are the odds of her becoming a new, recurring NPC villain? I can see her really interfering with Redcloak, who lets face it is the brains of the operation, by sucking up to Xykon and trying to edge Redcloak out.
65% chance she survives the battle 55% chance she gets a permanent job with Xykon... so not good odds as both have to occur... LG might be hiring though...

[mikeejimbo]

I can see her really interfering with Redcloak, who lets face it is the brains of the operation, by sucking up to Xykon and trying to edge Redcloak out.

That's a good point, although the end of your statement is making me chuckle.

[CardinalFang]

65% chance she survives the battle 55% chance she gets a permanent job with Xykon... so not good odds as both have to occur... LG might be hiring though...
Don't they need a healer and an arcane caster?

[Aquillion]

In a nutshell, PC lets you cast one second level spell as a first level character.

Once you level up, its like you have an extra second level spellslot.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a
Hmm, reading that, these lines from the feat leap out at me:
If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect.

...

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above.Reading those, this implies to me that the feat doesn't mean that you can "cast 2nd level spells" in the sense used by prerequisites (if it did, that language would be meaningless.)


Nope, many, many cleric spells are not available to wizards. Divine and Arcane magic are very distinct although the bard blurs the line a little. For example most spells with an alignment descriptor are divine as are all spells that use positive energy to heal, and most spells that use negative energy to injure.Erm. This came up elsewhere recently... the only thing that decides whether a spell is divine or arcane is who is casting it (or, for a MT, which side your casting it from.)

Wizards can't learn the cure spells, though, for the simple reason that they're not on their class list. When a Bard casts Cure Light Wounds, they're casting an arcane spell; if they scribe a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, they get an arcane scroll of it (which Wizards can't use, since it's still not on their class list.) Likewise, a Bard can't recite a divine scroll of CLW (eg. one written by a cleric) without a UMD check, and a cleric couldn't use the bard scroll without a UMD check.

Classes have very specific lists of the spells they can use, and going beyond that requires something that specifically adds another spell to your class list--just finding a scroll doesn't help. On top of that, even if they have a scroll of a spell on their class list, a Wizard needs it to be an arcane scroll (one written by a class that casts as an arcane caster) before they can scribe it. A divine scroll of Break Enchantment tells you how to call on your god to break an enchantment, not how to cast it as a wizard; to an arcane class, it's about as useful as tissue paper.

[jindra34]

Don't they need a healer and an arcane caster?

yes on both counts... i was only thinking of a job with Xykon in those numbers though...

[taraxia]

Mystic Theurge is a hideously powerful Prestige Class. Think about it, two seperate levels worth of spellcasting ability for every level you take. Compare this to merely trying to multiclass wizard with cleric. At level 12, you've got a Wiz6/Clr6, capable of 3rd level spells vs. a Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurge 6, capable of 5th level spells from both types. Sure, you lose the other class abilities of Wizards and Clerics, but no one ever became a wizard for the familiar (just look at V).


There's nothing "hideously powerful" about this class. It's "hideously powerful" compared to multiclassing equal levels of Wizard and Cleric, but that's because that's hideously *weak*, and Mystic Theurge only boosts the power of the Wiz/Cleric multiclass enough to be survivable, not actually good.

The lvl 12 MT can cast 5th level spells of both types. Big whoop. The real Wizard can cast 6th-level arcane spells and the real Cleric can cast 6th-level divine spells. 6th-level arcane spells or 6th-level divine spells beat 5th-level arcane or divine spells hands down. Especially since the MT can still only cast *one spell at a time*.

[taraxia]

That has not been my experience. Then again, my experience with Mystic Theurge has been as a PC who played a hardcore support role within a party which also contained a sorcerer and a cleric (6 players + a DM). Although the pure arcane or divine casters had access to bigger spells, my Theurge was the character that consistently provided the significant outlier with which the DM had to contend. When the Sorcerer with a 19 Charisma is looking at you and asking, "You're not out of spells, yet?!?", you know you're doing something right.

Well, yeah, you're not playing a Sorcerer.

Sorcerers' number of spells per day -- their only real advantage over a Wizard -- turns out to be unimportant when you realize that their small spell list forces them to be really inefficient in the way they use magic compared to a Wizard.

The thing is that while a Wizard-based MT is a spell level or so behind a regular Wizard, so is a vanilla Sorcerer, putting them roughly on par in that sense (though the Sorcerer still has many advantages). But it is sad.

[Sky_Schemer]

65% chance she survives the battle

Those are pretty high odds given how things have gone for the other "notable" NPCs so far.

[gadren]

Its a small, small world.

Say, would a Wizard 1 with precocious apprentice/ cleric 3/MT X
be a legit build? Cause that wouldn't be so bad.... You'd only lose one level of clric and gain a bunch of bonus levels of wizard. For the Win.

Is that even a WotC feat?

[gadren]

Mystic Theurge is a good option CR optimization wise for kobold adept/sorcerers. Kobold adept 4/ sorc 4/ mystic theurge 4 is CR 9, and might have some surprises for PCs compared to a kobold sorc 9.

[Solo]

Is that even a WotC feat?

Complete Arcane, i believe.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ugggg, the NRA. I don't like guns
Then you should stick one of these (http://www.libriumarcana.com/Uploads/Rogue/Pictures/gf-bumper.gif) on your car. :smallamused:

Anyway, mystic theurge isn't too terribly powerful against threats of your own level, but it's one of the best classes out there for cleaning up a horde of lower level creatures. Sure, you don't have the big, flashy spells, but loads of fireballs are more than good enough.

[Threeshades]

I have an unrelated question: Does a mystic Theurge actually require you to be a wizard, or does it also work with Sorcerers?

And how about Clerics and Druids? (i notices that in the documents from crystalkeep it says min lvl Clr3 / Wiz3

[Renegade Paladin]

It works with any arcane and divine spellcasting class; you could be a bard/ranger if you really wanted.

[Grasilich]

the General dude is in the throne room. Anyway to get a concrete level on him? he might be able to hold Xykon off until eh PCs show up.

You know what general I'm talking about, its the: "I'm going to guard the throne room, if I do not see you again in this world then we shall have a drink in the next," guy.

Pre-fall Miko was the strongest member of the Sapphire Guard, while Hinjo was the second strongest. Considering the gap between Miko and Hinjo, I'd say that means O-Chul is going to be pretty much nothing compared to Xykon. The guy will be lucky to get even one hit in, and that hit probably isn't even going to do any damage.

The only Paladin in the Guard capable of even slowing down Xykon is now no longer a Paladin. The rest are going to be dusted and raised as zombies.

[factotum]

Mystic Theurge is a good option CR optimization wise for kobold adept/sorcerers. Kobold adept 4/ sorc 4/ mystic theurge 4 is CR 9, and might have some surprises for PCs compared to a kobold sorc 9.

Erm, well, being 3 levels higher than the plain sorcerer would tend to cause them to be better, wouldn't it? Would an adept 3/sorc 3/MT 3 be quite such a challenge?

[Lord_Kimboat]

The only Paladin in the Guard capable of even slowing down Xykon is now no longer a Paladin. The rest are going to be dusted and raised as zombies.

I'm not sure that even she could have done too much. After her fall, Roy took her pretty easily and he didn't do too well against Xykon.

[Thexare Blademoon]

It works with any arcane and divine spellcasting class; you could be a bard/ranger if you really wanted.
Although the only decent use of a non-Wizard mix that I could see would be Favored Soul/Sorcerer, since I'm pretty sure that helps with the MAD issues...

[lord_khaine]

well honestly in that case i would rather deal with MAD...
the one "big" advantage with being a mystic theurge is that you have access to just about all the lower levels spell, making you a support machine.

if you start taking sorc lvs you will both fall 2 lvs behind in arcane spellcasting, and severly limit your number of spells know.

[chibibar]

but you know something, no matter how good/bad the class. A good player can really work a class if he/she wants to. There are so many choices that you can mix and match together.

One of the old school mix I use to do is Wu Jen/Wild Mage ;)

[Galandris]

I am certainly wrong because it's a long time since I read that... But the girls specifically states she's into undead and has been a graverobber for 2 years. I seem to remember there is a prestige class whose prerequisite are matching that : peaceful contact with an undead and spending a set amount of time in a grave. Coincidence ? Hint of things to come ?


Mmm, apparently I was mixing up requirements for the TN, Pale Master and the Lich-loved feat.

[see]

As a replacement for the party's sorc/wiz in the four-character basic party, the mystic theurge is seriously underpowered, because of the spell level trouble. As a replacement for the cleric, he'd be inadequate both because of his poor combat ability and weaker healing ability.

However, as the fifth character in a party (that is, one that already fills all four basic roles), the mystic theurge is quite powerful; the number and variety of spells he can cast means significant magical assistance to the party in circumstances where the primary casters would be caught short. The sheer versatility makes the MT a better choice for fifth character than a second sorc/wiz. (A second cleric is competitive with an MT, though they'd tend to be used differently; the MT is secondary artillery and healing/utility spells, while the cleric is a secondary monster-basher and healing/utility.)

So, you know, it's all a matter of circumstances.

[Twilight Jack]

As a replacement for the party's sorc/wiz in the four-character basic party, the mystic theurge is seriously underpowered, because of the spell level trouble. As a replacement for the cleric, he'd be inadequate both because of his poor combat ability and weaker healing ability.

However, as the fifth character in a party (that is, one that already fills all four basic roles), the mystic theurge is quite powerful; the number and variety of spells he can cast means significant magical assistance to the party in circumstances where the primary casters would be caught short. The sheer versatility makes the MT a better choice for fifth character than a second sorc/wiz. (A second cleric is competitive with an MT, though they'd tend to be used differently; the MT is secondary artillery and healing/utility spells, while the cleric is a secondary monster-basher and healing/utility.)

So, you know, it's all a matter of circumstances.

With this, I can certainly agree.

[theinsulabot]

Pre-fall Miko was the strongest member of the Sapphire Guard, while Hinjo was the second strongest. Considering the gap between Miko and Hinjo, I'd say that means O-Chul is going to be pretty much nothing compared to Xykon. The guy will be lucky to get even one hit in, and that hit probably isn't even going to do any damage.

The only Paladin in the Guard capable of even slowing down Xykon is now no longer a Paladin. The rest are going to be dusted and raised as zombies.

you act like miko would of done something other the provide an amusing diversion and knowing xykon, a second head planted in the ground about 2 feet from roy. judging from the Oots strips, i would say miko is between 2 and 4 levels above roy. which still places her 4 or more below xycon. all that really means is it wouldn't take her as long to do the minor bit of damage nessasary to convince him its time to stop kidding around and kick her uptight arse to the curb. whats interesting, is had roy been alive, and there relationship hadn't been so rocky, its highly possible, even probably that a roy/miko assault would have been considerably more effective.




edit. and why isnt my avatar showing anyways?

[Laesin]

Erm. This came up elsewhere recently... the only thing that decides whether a spell is divine or arcane is who is casting it (or, for a MT, which side your casting it from.)



My apologies if I was unclear. The quote you gave from me was meant to be a specific response to someone who had stated that wizards could learn any spell so long as they could find a scroll of it. On rereading my post I see that I phrased it far too generally.