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Dark Ass4ssin 1
2015-07-11, 01:45 PM
So Aam currently playing in a game in which the DM very often and obviously bends the rules, usually for some immature, or shortlived joke. I'm perfectly fine with a DM that bends therules now and again to be cool or add flavor (your not a good DM if you don't), but this is all the time countless times a session. The table has talked to him about, and that ended for a short...but he has recently began doing it again.

Just for scale here are 3 of the "Incidents"
1. An ogre was allowed to auto double crit. a player because he jumped from 30ft. above him and attacked instantly dropping our barbarian.

2. A goblin had a mirror that AUTOMATICALLY
reflected all of my spells back at me for double damage with max damage

3. We had to run from a kobold that had swallowed a pill that made him invulnerable to everything...EVERYTHING

Please give me suggestions on the optimal way to approach this situation.

2E Phoinex
2015-07-11, 01:56 PM
Has the DM ever been a player before in a different Campaign? Sounds like he wants the game to be a silly and funny, in which case you guys should probably talk about what exactly you are hoping to get out of the campaign. OR, maybe he's just new and is still figuring the whole thing out and could benefit from seeing someone else DM for a while to see that the game can be fun without crazy rule bending.

Just curious: any of these rule manipulations end up in the players' favor?

Red Fel
2015-07-11, 01:58 PM
Please give me suggestions on the optimal way to approach this situation.

Talk to your DM again.

Sounds simple, doesn't it? It is. Simply talk to him, and say to him precisely what you've said to us. "Look, I get that a DM bends the rules from time to time, to make things fun or awesome, but when you bend them in such a way that it completely neutralizes the actions of the PCs, or instantly kills them, it's really frustrating."

The ability of players to be in control of the PCs' actions is part of the agreement between DMs and players. Another part of that agreement is an understanding of expectations and rules. When a DM changes the rules suddenly, and without warning, it can be frustrating. When he does so in such a way that it robs the players of control (e.g. instantly killing a PC without a save, automatically reflecting and doubling maximum damage without a save, or dropping invulnerable enemies on the PCs), it is both frustrating and disruptive of the suspension of disbelief. It's one thing to occasionally bend the rules to be fun, it's another to bend them in order to kill or punish your PCs.

So talk to your DM again. I know you've done it before, but do it again. Tell him, in a civil manner, that you find these rule changes very frustrating. Ask him if he can offer you some kind of consistent expectation of the game.

If this becomes a recurring thing, though? Offer to DM in his place. Maybe he's getting burned out.

Keltest
2015-07-11, 02:05 PM
snip

In addition to what our evil overlord said, be aware that as a player you are always capable of just walking out at any point. If the DM continually does not respond to clear communication that what he is doing is poor conduct, don't be afraid to leave. The DM will either get the picture, at which point you can request to continue playing with him if you want to, or he wont, in which case he will eventually be out of players.

NomGarret
2015-07-11, 02:10 PM
If direct talk isn't doing the trick, and I would try again, to be sure, add in the indirect approach. Talk about tiring of this game and wanting to switch it up. Is there someone else in the group who has a game they would like to run? Someone who could "show" instead of "tell" this gm how to fudge in a decent way?

In the meantime, you as a player have a right to a (mostly) internally consistent world to play in. Be prepared to argue that jumping on top of someone from >30 feet auto crits for double damage when a PC wants to try it. Did the ogre take damage from the fall? Why not? If it's a magic item, it can be looted.

Ultimately the gm can always fall back on "unique ability," but if this is a problem several times per session, the desire to avoid these arguments should help to reduce their frequency.

Mr.Moron
2015-07-12, 06:18 AM
Leave the game. If you can't enjoy your GMs style, leave the game.

Leon
2015-07-12, 02:44 PM
Leave the game. If you can't enjoy your GMs style, leave the game.

This pretty much sums up what i thought when i saw the thread.

Live with it or leave, its not your call to change how a DM runs their games.

CantigThimble
2015-07-12, 04:37 PM
Leave the game. If you can't enjoy your GMs style, leave the game.

It seems like common courtesy to tell your DM why you are considering leaving their game and see if hey would be interested in changing their style before just dropping them.

Mr.Moron
2015-07-12, 04:55 PM
It seems like common courtesy to tell your DM why you are considering leaving their game and see if hey would be interested in changing their style before just dropping them.


Not really. I mean it's polite to give them a heads up that you're doing so, if only to give them time to find a replacement or whatever or they can plan for the next session. "Hey. I won't be showing up next session, I have to drop the game for personal reasons. Sorry, but good luck. " is fine. This isn't a marriage, or contract or anything you don't need an "out" to justify what you're doing.

Besides the chance of them wanting to change their style is small and the chance of them being able to change even if want to change is even smaller. You're far more likely to walk away with headache or offending a friend if you try to tell them how much you hate their game than if you just drop it and leave it at that.

Keltest
2015-07-12, 05:07 PM
Not really. I mean it's polite to give them a heads up that you're doing so, if only to give them time to find a replacement or whatever or they can plan for the next session. "Hey. I won't be showing up next session, I have to drop the game for personal reasons. Sorry, but good luck. " is fine. This isn't a marriage, or contract or anything you don't need an "out" to justify what you're doing.

Besides the chance of them wanting to change their style is small and the chance of them being able to change even if want to change is even smaller. You're far more likely to walk away with headache or offending a friend if you try to tell them how much you hate their game than if you just drop it and leave it at that.

For starters, it is absolutely a polite thing to do to let the DM know that his style isn't compatible with yours. Significantly more so than lying to them through omission.

Beyond that, a DM is never going to learn or improve if nobody tells them what theyre doing. People aren't robots, they can adapt and change if what theyre doing isn't working.

Mr Beer
2015-07-12, 06:23 PM
This annoys the other players as well, right? Talk to him again. Also, this seems relentlessly adversarial on his part, does he think he needs to kill the party or something? If it doesn't change, just walk.

Vitruviansquid
2015-07-12, 06:29 PM
I really dislike this "don't like a game? Just leave" mentality that gets thrown around a lot on internet forums, because it really ****s on GMs. There are plenty of times when the GM has major problems with players, but the GM can't leave the game, because then there would be no game. Thus, the GMs, whose investments into campaigns are far greater than the players', are told to compromise (or bend to the players' preferences) all the time, but the players are told to use ultimatums all the time and tell the GM to do this and that or leave the table. In any case, the best thing to do in a social game is to be able to accept others' styles, and the more you are practiced at doing that, the more fun you will have, and the more fun everybody who plays with you will have.


Anyways, this is my advice for how you should approach this situation.

Propose having another player or yourself run a one-shot, perhaps in a different system, for one session. At the very least, this will give everyone at the table a breath of fresh air, which is necessary even in campaigns that are going along pretty smoothly. But in my experience, being exposed to other styles regularly is absolutely necessary for anyone to develop their skill as both a GM and a player.

Try and enjoy the game for what it is. I know it's not exactly what you prefer, nor the Textbook Way you're supposed to run games, but try to find the appeal that your DM found in it and then go with the flow. Keep an open mind when you're playing tabletop RPGs because the truth is, you will rarely, if ever, find a game that you can 100% agree with, especially if your pool of potential players is small.

Keltest
2015-07-12, 06:45 PM
I really dislike this "don't like a game? Just leave" mentality that gets thrown around a lot on internet forums, because it really ****s on GMs. There are plenty of times when the GM has major problems with players, but the GM can't leave the game, because then there would be no game. Thus, the GMs, whose investments into campaigns are far greater than the players', are told to compromise (or bend to the players' preferences) all the time, but the players are told to use ultimatums all the time and tell the GM to do this and that or leave the table. In any case, the best thing to do in a social game is to be able to accept others' styles, and the more you are practiced at doing that, the more fun you will have, and the more fun everybody who plays with you will have.

For starters, its understood going in that a GM is undertaking a significantly larger task than the players are. Its hardly surprising that with more moving parts, theyre going to have to change some things at times. Beyond that though, there isn't anything preventing a GM from leaving a game theyre dissatisfied with either.

Additionally you hear about dissatisfied players far more often than you hear about GMs who hate their table.

Pex
2015-07-12, 07:38 PM
I really dislike this "don't like a game? Just leave" mentality that gets thrown around a lot on internet forums, because it really ****s on GMs. There are plenty of times when the GM has major problems with players, but the GM can't leave the game, because then there would be no game. Thus, the GMs, whose investments into campaigns are far greater than the players', are told to compromise (or bend to the players' preferences) all the time, but the players are told to use ultimatums all the time and tell the GM to do this and that or leave the table. In any case, the best thing to do in a social game is to be able to accept others' styles, and the more you are practiced at doing that, the more fun you will have, and the more fun everybody who plays with you will have.


Anyways, this is my advice for how you should approach this situation.

Propose having another player or yourself run a one-shot, perhaps in a different system, for one session. At the very least, this will give everyone at the table a breath of fresh air, which is necessary even in campaigns that are going along pretty smoothly. But in my experience, being exposed to other styles regularly is absolutely necessary for anyone to develop their skill as both a GM and a player.

Try and enjoy the game for what it is. I know it's not exactly what you prefer, nor the Textbook Way you're supposed to run games, but try to find the appeal that your DM found in it and then go with the flow. Keep an open mind when you're playing tabletop RPGs because the truth is, you will rarely, if ever, find a game that you can 100% agree with, especially if your pool of potential players is small.

There have been plenty of threads of DMs complaining about disruptive players asking what to do for help beyond just talking. They have also been told to disinvite the problem player if he can't/won't change his disruptive behavior. The DM runs the game, but he is not the players' lord and master. It is the DM's campaign, but it is everyone's game.

Mr.Moron
2015-07-12, 07:53 PM
For starters, it is absolutely a polite thing to do to let the DM know that his style isn't compatible with yours. Significantly more so than lying to them through omission.


I'd be willing to be the number of people who are going to appreciate a breakdown of exactly why they and their game suck are pretty small. Regardless what's "Polite" is kind of subjective. I'd err on the side of avoiding conflict and not placing blame.

If you value honesty that's fine I guess, but I think just letting things go stands a better chance of getting a non-negative reaction from the other party.



Beyond that, a DM is never going to learn or improve if nobody tells them what theyre doing. People aren't robots, they can adapt and change if what theyre doing isn't working.

They can but they tend not to. The overwhelming tendency is dismiss criticism and double-down even harder on a position. When someone's preferences are challenged their usual reaction is to defend those preferences, not to try and change their preferences to match those of the challenger.

Keltest
2015-07-12, 08:05 PM
I'd be willing to be the number of people who are going to appreciate a breakdown of exactly why they and their game suck are pretty small. Regardless what's "Polite" is kind of subjective. I'd err on the side of avoiding conflict and not placing blame.

If you value honesty that's fine I guess, but I think just letting things go stands a better chance of getting a non-negative reaction from the other party.

Tact is a thing. More importantly, just because a player does not enjoy the style does not mean that it is bad or wrong or needs changing. If you aren't enjoying yourself, the DM deserves to know. If theyre willing to change, great. If not, again, that isn't a bad thing, and I don't know why youre trying to make this about a confrontation when there isn't one.




They can but they tend not to. The overwhelming tendency is dismiss criticism and double-down even harder on a position. When someone's preferences are challenged their usual reaction is to defend those preferences, not to try and change their preferences to match those of the challenger.

If a DM feels offended or defensive when someone tells them "I don't like how you do this because X" then they frankly deserve it. They need to be knocked out of their comfort zone, because when it causes that attitude, it is not a good place to be.

Vitruviansquid
2015-07-12, 08:16 PM
For starters, its understood going in that a GM is undertaking a significantly larger task than the players are. Its hardly surprising that with more moving parts, theyre going to have to change some things at times. Beyond that though, there isn't anything preventing a GM from leaving a game theyre dissatisfied with either.

Additionally you hear about dissatisfied players far more often than you hear about GMs who hate their table.

Yes, the GM is undertaking a significantly larger task - that's why you should give him some leniency.

No, there is stuff preventing GMs from leaving the table. There is, in fact, stuff preventing players from leaving the table too, only some internet forums don't like to acknowledge that it applies to both GMs and players equally. And that is the fact that if you make arrangements with your friends to have a cooperative activity, it's not cool to back out. Especially if this commitment is supposed to be long-term.

Yes, you hear about more dissatisfied players than GMs, because there are more people who are players than GMs.


There have been plenty of threads of DMs complaining about disruptive players asking what to do for help beyond just talking. They have also been told to disinvite the problem player if he can't/won't change his disruptive behavior. The DM runs the game, but he is not the players' lord and master. It is the DM's campaign, but it is everyone's game.

That GMs are too often told to expel players too often is another feature of internet forums that I dislike. In general, people are far too willing to discard RPG groups or people within groups, and that's not healthy for any cooperative venture like an RPG group. The reason I talk about why the player should learn to bend for the GM is because I am currently talking to a player in this thread, not a GM.

Keltest
2015-07-12, 08:29 PM
Yes, the GM is undertaking a significantly larger task - that's why you should give him some leniency.

No, there is stuff preventing GMs from leaving the table. There is, in fact, stuff preventing players from leaving the table too, only some internet forums don't like to acknowledge that it applies to both GMs and players equally. And that is the fact that if you make arrangements with your friends to have a cooperative activity, it's not cool to back out. Especially if this commitment is supposed to be long-term.

Yes, you hear about more dissatisfied players than GMs, because there are more people who are players than GMs.



That GMs are too often told to expel players too often is another feature of internet forums that I dislike. In general, people are far too willing to discard RPG groups or people within groups, and that's not healthy for any cooperative venture like an RPG group. The reason I talk about why the player should learn to bend for the GM is because I am currently talking to a player in this thread, not a GM.

At the end of the day, no player or GM should be or is obligated to go to a gaming session they actively dislike. If you are actually friends with these people, they will understand that it isn't working out well for you and that you don't want to continue doing it. No gaming is better than bad gaming, after all.

Rainbownaga
2015-07-12, 09:22 PM
Just for scale here are 3 of the "Incidents"
1. An ogre was allowed to auto double crit. a player because he jumped from 30ft. above him and attacked instantly dropping our barbarian.

2. A goblin had a mirror that AUTOMATICALLY
reflected all of my spells back at me for double damage with max damage

3. We had to run from a kobold that had swallowed a pill that made him invulnerable to everything.

1 seems like a something you can already do with the right feats, and 2 and 3 seem like puzzle encounters.

I'm a bit suprised by the amount of damage the first two are dishing out, but otherwise this just sounds like "oldschool" play.

Why exactly does it bother you so much? Not saying you don't have a valid reason, but if you can explain it better than "bad dm, stop making things up" then it might work better when talking to him.

Steampunkette
2015-07-13, 02:16 AM
I'd say pick up a mirror, get your barabrian into the air, and start coming up with your own "screw you!" stuff to use against your GM. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.

And if all else fails, make your own fun in the game. If everyone at the table is frustrated with it, derail, derail, derail!

Of note, I am sorry for comparing you to a waterfowl for the purpose of colloquialism. I realize, through extensive interwebs experience, that you are most likely not a swimming avian with an internet connection. In the event you are, kudos on typing with your webbed feet, pinions, or bill, as appropriate.

ArcanaFire
2015-07-13, 05:10 AM
I agree with a lot of the previous posters in that communication is essential to a good gaming environment. You can tell your DM what you feel is wrong without ripping the campaign apart.

"I feel like that much damage for an attack that had no saving throw is a bit over the top; I'm sure none of us mind dying if it comes to that but it's not fun if we never had a chance, a more even battle is more fun to play", for example.

If you've talked to him about it before it's an easy enough matter to point out "You've been doing this again", and it will probably get toned down again. He'll probably start doing it again on down the line but if all it takes is mentioning it eventually you'll come up with a short hand for it and it will be an easy fix.

That's if it's worth it to you. When it becomes more of a chore than a fun hobby like it's supposed to be, that's when it's time to give up the ghost.

Balmas
2015-07-13, 05:26 AM
I'd say pick up a mirror, get your barabrian into the air, and start coming up with your own "screw you!" stuff to use against your GM. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.

And if all else fails, make your own fun in the game. If everyone at the table is frustrated with it, derail, derail, derail!

Of note, I am sorry for comparing you to a waterfowl for the purpose of colloquialism. I realize, through extensive interwebs experience, that you are most likely not a swimming avian with an internet connection. In the event you are, kudos on typing with your webbed feet, pinions, or bill, as appropriate.

Hmm. I think I'd argue against this approach, actually. The only thing that making up your own "Screw You" stuff will accomplish is to make both the DM and yourself frustrated. Either he doesn't accept your unorthodox methods, in which case you're frustrated, or worse, he does in which case... You still don't play the kind of game you seem to be looking for?

Ditto for Derailing. If you don't want to play a campaign, there are better and more mature methods to not play a campaign. You don't have to be there.

I'm going to toss my hat in towards the "Try to talk it out" box. The ideal is that he and you come to a new way of gaming geared towards what both parties want. And if he doesn't want to change, you have a choice of either sucking it up or leaving respectfully.

Segev
2015-07-13, 12:01 PM
All hte advice here as been mostly good.

I want to touch on Steampunkette's for a moment, though, because it's similar to what I'd do if I were in a game and the DM didn't seem to think my complaints were valid.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Pick up that goblin's mirror, and use it. Replicate the tactics of the insta-kill ogre. Ask where the "invulnerability pill" came from and try to find some for yourselves.

That's not being a jerk; that's just looking at the world as internally consistent. It's even playing along. If the DM thinks this kind of thing is funny and fun, he may even allow it. Just learn the rules and meta-rules of his game and world and exploit them.

Jay R
2015-07-14, 12:13 PM
There's a straightforward test for determining if the DM is being fair.

1. Jump on somebody from 30 feet, and see if you automatically double-crit.
2. Get that mirror. See if it reflects spells at your enemies for double damage with max damage.
3. Find out where those pills come from and try one.

If all these things work for you, then it's a fair game with rules and options you are learning along the way. If they don't work for you, then you have a serious problem, that's deeper and more systemic than "the DM very often and obviously bends the rules".