Taking 10 on concentration?

[martixy]

I'm trying to convince my DM that you can take 10 on concentration checks when not threatened/distracted.

It's not working. Help me please?

[Psyren]

Did you show him the take 10 rules? A skill has to say you can't take 10 on it (like UMD) in order for his reading to be true.

Having said that, concentration is a special case -it's almost always going to be under distracting or threatening conditions, otherwise it would be automatic. There are a handful of exceptions, like gaining psionic focus, but in general if you're making a check at all it's because something adverse is going on.

[martixy]

It's precisely for psionic focus.

And yes, I showed him.

[Red Fel]

See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#taking10).

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.
(Emphasis added.)

That first sentence is key. When you're not threatened or distracted, you can take 10 on a skill check unless otherwise indicated. That includes Concentration.

Now, certain forms of Concentration specifically come up when threatened or distracted. For example, performing an action while taking damage, being subject to vigorous motion, being subject to dangerous weather, or performing an action defensively all trigger Concentration checks, and all of them constitute being threatened or distracted - thus preventing you from taking 10. But others, such as gaining your psionic focus, are not triggered by being threatened or distracted; you could take 10 on these.

Keep in mind, however, that the DC to become psionically focused is 20. That means that you need at least 10 ranks in Concentration in order to take 10 on the roll.

Note further the distinction between taking 10 and taking 20 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#taking20). Taking 10 means performing a skill once, but with care. Taking 20 means performing a skill over and over until you get it right. As noted in the description, any skill that carries a penalty on failure incurs those penalties. Obviously, that means that your Concentration check could have failed multiple times, carrying whatever consequences that entails. Note also that taking 20 requires twenty times the length of time of a normal action, while taking 10 does not indicate an increased execution time.

[Psyren]

@OP: Your GM is wrong, regaining psionic focus (in a calm environment) will let you take 10. And even if it didn't, what would stop you from just rerolling until you get it?



Keep in mind, however, that the DC to become psionically focused is 20. That means that you need at least 10 ranks in Concentration in order to take 10 on the roll.


To clarify the above - you're assuming 10 Con and no modifiers here. You can take 10 with fewer than 10 ranks depending on your static bonuses from other sources, including the relevant ability score.

[ShurikVch]

In case it will be useful: Dragon #340 have feat "Secrets of Dusk", which allow to take Concentration 10 at any time, period, and Knowledge 20 1/day

[Jowgen]

I suggest checking the list I complied. It's in my sig.

Should your DM hardline on the issue, I suggest the "Hardnened Criminal" feat from City of Stormreach. It lets you pick one skill to always take 10 on. Also, immunity to intimidate, for what it's worth. I think it has Iron Will as a prerequesite and your DM may frown at the fluff, but it's the easiest way to get Skill Mastery on the sly.

[Curmudgeon]

Should your DM hardline on the issue, I suggest the "Hardnened Criminal" feat from City of Stormreach.
If the DM's hardlining on anything, I doubt that would work.
Members of the Bilge Rats have access to the following feats. At the DM’s option, any other Stormreach native can also take them.

JOINING THE BILGE RATS

Entry Requirements

Type: Humanoid.
Skill: Intimidate 3 ranks.
Class Feature: Sneak attack +1d6 or sudden strike +1d6.
Special: In order for you to receive the Gift, a Gifted Rat must personally vouch for you.

[Jowgen]

If the DM's hardlining on anything, I doubt that would work.

Well, hardlining on his view on skill-checks in one thing, hardlining on the availability of a feat that's tied to setting-fluff is another. Provided they're not playing Eberron and the DM generally allows the adaptation of setting-tied feats (most do in my exerpience) then this is an option. A balanced one at that, since spending a feat (2 if you count iron will) for skill-mastery in a single skill isn't that good of a deal even if taking 10 in the skill really works for the build.

But yeah, if the DM really doesn't want to give then that's that.

[ShaneMRoth]

I'm trying to convince my DM that you can take 10 on concentration checks when not threatened/distracted.

It's not working. Help me please?

I find that bribery works well. Out of Game, I mean.

Bring him a pizza, then ask if he will reconsider his ruling.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But the gesture will be appreciated.

[Renen]

To be honest if your DM is being difficult on take 10, id do what was already suggested and just keep rolling. Heck, eventually you will hit a 20, for an auto success unless your modifier is negative. If he says you can't, ask him what is stopping you from rolling the check until you get it. I assure you he won't find any actual reason.

[nyjastul69]

To be honest if your DM is being difficult on take 10, id do what was already suggested and just keep rolling. Heck, eventually you will hit a 20, for an auto success unless your modifier is negative. If he says you can't, ask him what is stopping you from rolling the check until you get it. I assure you he won't find any actual reason.

I would suggest this angle too, as has been said upthread. Rolling a nat 20 on a skill check is not an automatic success though.

[Renen]

If I implied it was though, u would not have mentioned negative modifier.

[nyjastul69]

If I implied it was though, u would not have mentioned negative modifier.

Ummm.. I never mentioned a negative modifier. A nat 20 on a skill check is not necessarily a success.

[Renen]

To be honest if your DM is being difficult on take 10, id do what was already suggested and just keep rolling. Heck, eventually you will hit a 20, for an auto success unless your modifier is negative. If he says you can't, ask him what is stopping you from rolling the check until you get it. I assure you he won't find any actual reason.

Sure I did. I have bonded it for you above. What that means is that since DC is 20 and you roll 20 you get an auto success, in reference not to not 20s on saves, but the fact that you roll exactly how much you need. UNLESS the modifier is negative, since if you got - 1 mod (for example) , it's impossible to make the check (Unless something boosts the modifier) as even a 20 would result in only a 19.

[nyjastul69]

Sure I did. I have bonded it for you above. What that means is that since DC is 20 and you roll 20 you get an auto success, in reference not to not 20s on saves, but the fact that you roll exactly how much you need. UNLESS the modifier is negative, since if you got - 1 mod (for example) , it's impossible to make the check (Unless something boosts the modifier) as even a 20 would result in only a 19.

I don't understand the words you are using in the fashion being used. A 20 on a skill check is not an automatic seccess. I apologize if I've been unclear here, but I can't follow your dialogue.

[torrasque666]

I don't understand the words you are using in the fashion being used. A 20 on a skill check is not an automatic seccess. I apologize if I've been unclear here, but I can't follow your dialogue.

They're saying that since the DC for the task at hand (becoming focused) is a DC20, then rolling a 20 on the dice is enough, provided you don't have a negative modifier.

[Renen]

Yep. I meant exactly that. The only way you DON'T guarantee a success on a 20 if the DC is 20, is by having a negative modifier.

[nyjastul69]

They're saying that since the DC for the task at hand (becoming focused) is a DC20, then rolling a 20 on the dice is enough, provided you don't have a negative modifier.

That's obvious. The 'auto' success bit is what I got hung up on. Some people think a nat 20 on skill check is a auto success. I was just trying clarify that it is not.

[Renen]

And I was explaining that I specifically mentioned having negative modifier because I knew someone might misunderstand otherwise. If I thought 20 made a success no matter what, there would be no mention of negative modifiers as they wouldn't matter.

[nyjastul69]

And I was explaining that I specifically mentioned having negative modifier because I knew someone might misunderstand otherwise. If I thought 20 made a success no matter what, there would be no mention of negative modifiers as they wouldn't matter.

I get it now. Your saying 'auto success' was confusing to me. It was especially confusing because the target number you chose was 20. Some who play the game think that a 20 on a skill check isnan auto success. If you had used 13, or something not 20, as the target number, I think it would have been more clear.

[paranoidbox]

Back on track, I think the feat Steady Concentration lets you Take 10 on Concentration check whenever you want (Races of Stone? I think). At the very least it's not a feat from an obscure source.

[Ravens_cry]

0 on these.

Keep in mind, however, that the DC to become psionically focused is 20. That means that you need at least 10 ranks in Concentration in order to take 10 on the roll.

No, no it doesn't. It just means your bonuses must add up to ten. Sure, if you have no plus in Constitution and no items or feats to increase it, sure, you'd need ten ranks, but even a fourteen Constitution and a masterwork item (a pretty minuscule investment) pushes that down to six ranks.

[Synar]

No, no it doesn't. It just means your bonuses must add up to ten. Sure, if you have no plus in Constitution and no items or feats to increase it, sure, you'd need ten ranks, but even a fourteen Constitution and a masterwork item (a pretty minuscule investment) pushes that down to six ranks.

There are masterwork concentration items?

[Karnith]

There are masterwork concentration items?
There are in theory masterwork tools for any skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork), though in my experience many DMs are unwilling to allow the more unconventional ones.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

My personal policy, which is obviously not RAW or anything like it, is to allow any masterwork tool that the player can describe to me.

[Renen]

Its umm... a masterwork... anti-stress ball... it umm... helps relieve stress and concentrate!

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Its umm... a masterwork... anti-stress ball... it umm... helps relieve stress and concentrate!

Sure! Better have a free hand to use it, though!

There's definitely a certain amount of chutzpah; I approved a pair of Dr. Skroll's Gel Insoles as a MW UMD tool. Because how can you fake being an epic Wizard if your feet hurt?!

[Karnith]

Its umm... a masterwork... anti-stress ball... it umm... helps relieve stress and concentrate!
I believe that the one time one of my players suggested a Concentration tool, it was one of these (http://image.rakuten.co.jp/futaba-sousyoku/cabinet/matsuri/hachimaki-kamikaze1.jpg).
I allowed it
It was either that, or an Iaijutsu Focus tool. I forget which.

[Renen]

Sure! Better have a free hand to use it, though!

There's definitely a certain amount of chutzpah; I approved a pair of Dr. Skroll's Gel Insoles as a MW UMD tool. Because how can you fake being an epic Wizard if your feet hurt?!

Free hand? Nahhhh...
Lets see... Its a body spray, that makes me smell so good, I cant help but feel confident and calm as I go about my adventuring life!

[Curmudgeon]

There are in theory masterwork tools for any skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork), though in my experience many DMs are unwilling to allow the more unconventional ones.
That's a little bit off: there are instead masterwork tools for any job, of which there may be multiple jobs per skill. For example, the Jump skill has the following jobs:

Long Jump
High Jump
Hop Up
Jumping Down

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Free hand? Nahhhh...
Lets see... Its a body spray, that makes me smell so good, I cant help but feel confident and calm as I go about my adventuring life!

Hm, that seems like it'd be limited use... but maybe it's infinitely replenishable with water because it's just the placebo effect!

[ShaneMRoth]

There are in theory masterwork tools for any skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork), though in my experience many DMs are unwilling to allow the more unconventional ones.

Those DMs need to watch more Roadrunner cartoons...

[Ravens_cry]

There are masterwork concentration items?
Yes, there is, you just need to make one up. Regardless, a magic item to boost concentration is also pretty damn cheap as well.

[Mr Adventurer]

Steady Concentration is Races of Stone.

My character has Focusing Crystals for a MW Concentration tool (meditation-style).

[Psyren]

I use a chime or bell of some kind. Basically it would be a reusable item to help you get into the required mental state fluffwise.

[Killer Angel]

Those DMs need to watch more Roadrunner cartoons...

...but they don't end so well for the tools' user... :smalltongue:

[prufock]

To the OP

You have already showed him the rules, in print, that say you can do it, and he still says you can't. Does that mean he says
- you are interpreting it incorrectly
- the written rule is "wrong" somehow
- he doesn't trust the source
- miscellaneous other reason

Because beyond showing him that it is written down by the game authors, there shouldn't be anything else to do, and probably isn't anything else you can do if your DM is being that obtuse.

[Ravens_cry]

If I may make a suggestion, do it privately. Don't shove it in his face during the game session, just find a time to go over it, and be polite, considerate, and don't act like a jerk about it.
The only thing worse than a jerk is a jerk who is right.

[KillianHawkeye]

The only thing worse than a jerk is a jerk who is right.

Really? :smallconfused:

I would think the opposite would be true. I'd rather encounter a jerk that knows what they're talking about than one that I'm certain is completely wrong, too ignorant to know it, and too much of a jerk to accept it. I suppose that may just be because I hate to let people continue to be wrong about objective, factual information, though.

[Sagetim]

There are masterwork concentration items?

Of course, don't you have a masterwork dousing crystal on a piece of string? But having a masterwork tool for concentration seems more than a bit ridiculous. As such, I would suggest having an actual magic item for it (like a friendship bracelet of concentration, or a pair of warm winter socks of concentration...with endure elements on them too).

[ShaneMRoth]

If I may make a suggestion, do it privately. Don't shove it in his face during the game session, just find a time to go over it, and be polite, considerate, and don't act like a jerk about it.
The only thing worse than a jerk is a jerk who is right.

I strongly concur with this statement.

I am a jerk, and I often find myself in full command of the facts.

The jerk part doesn't help. It gets in the way.

I smack the jerk part of my personality in the bad of his head with a sock full of nickels before I make a presentation to someone I'm trying to persuade.

Presentation is important.

Timing is important.

Being right, by itself, is never enough.

[Psyren]

I strongly concur with this statement.

I am a jerk, and I often find myself in full command of the facts.

The jerk part doesn't help. It gets in the way.

I smack the jerk part of my personality in the bad of his head with a sock full of nickels before I make a presentation to someone I'm trying to persuade.

Presentation is important.

Timing is important.

Being right, by itself, is never enough.

For once we agree on something :smalltongue: