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EldritchWeaver
2015-07-11, 05:54 PM
I've been looking at the Tier placements of the core classes and it makes me sad that they are all over the place. So for my new campaign I'm looking for ways to bring the power level of the available classes to the Tiers 2, 3, and - if not possible otherwise - 4. Regarding magic, the biggest offender, I plan to use Spheres of Power instead. The classes provided by this supplement leave me at least with the impression that they are part of the expected power level range. But I still need to deal with the original classes. I could enforce using Sphere-converted classes, but there might be some problem I didn't spot (e.g. a converted class became too weak or wasn't boosted enough). And that still leaves the mess that martials are.

So I'm looking for suggestions which classes from 3rd party/Paizo material can fulfill the roles the various classes define. As there doesn't seem to be an exact match from core class to replacement (with the exception of the Unchained ones), I'm not averse to have several suggestions. But please add which particular builds are being matched in that case. Bonus points if you could add a mention of the Tier the replacement is considered to be in, how close it comes to the original, what problems the new rules might have, whatever else you think should be said. Feel free to tell me, if my suggestions are missing something or are plainly wrong. ;) I'll try to keep that table updated as for now I don't have really an answer for some classes. Edit: Applied info given by the following posters.

General notes:


Sphere Magus (assuming you allow the Paizo class) can be a great class to dip in as it allows to combine magic and martial attacks.
The Initiator Balance Rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418881-Initiator-Alternate-Rule-Balance-Fix) allows more martial oriented classes have some more options, even if they don't specifically use PoW stuff specifically.
To cut through the clutter I marked unique concepts, so in case of overlaps the non-core variant is favored.




Class Name
Tier
Roles
Replacement
Source
Tier
Notes


Barbarian
4
All?
Barbarian with Primal Disciple archetype
Path of War: Expanded
3??
That might be the least intrusive change in that vein that you still keep the class. Can't say how this changes playing the Barb however. Note: This archetype is compatible with Unchained Barbarian, but only the new rage mechanic and a single rage power remain.


Barbarian
4
All?
Warder with Primal Fury school
Path of War
3??
A defense focused class.


Barbarian
4
All?
Warlord with Primal Fury school
Path of War
3??
A teamwork focused class.


Barbarian
4
All?
Stalker with Brutal Slayer archetype
Path of War (Expanded)
3??
Looks like a Rogue turned Berserker to me.


Barbarian
4
All
Unchained Barbarian
Pathfinder Unchained
4
Overall this replacement isn't about making the Barbarian stronger, but easier to play. That alone is reason enough to use this one.


Bard
3
All?
Sphere Bard
Spheres of Power
3
It all comes down to magic here. A Sphere Bard is a mid-caster, which means having a CL of 15 at level 20. We have also only have a many magic talents as the Incanter class which is the SoP Wizard. So we have certainly less spell effects known. On the other hand, generally you have at-will effects available which keep you going for longer. And if you choose effects which aren't directly dependent on the CL the difference is less noticeable to a high-caster. You can have a lot of fun if you choose wisely.


Bard
3
All?
Hedgewitch
Spheres of Power
3
Choosing the Charlatanism and Spiritualism traditions grants access to most Bard abilities (though didn't check if a single character can get them all). But the tradition powers are better than what the Bard would get. Magic-wise the Hedgewitch is more focused, but as it allows to choose from all spheres it is more flexible what can be accomplished overall. Unfortunately, as a mid-caster, the maximum CL is 15, not 20. Hands down, I'd take this Hedgewitch over the other Bards.


Bard
3
More frontlining roles
Bard with Rubato archetype
Path of War: Expanded
3??
If you want to replace spells with more martial prowess then this is the way to go. The main feature Bardic Performance stays but the list of options changes.


Bard
3
More backlining roles
Maestro
Strange Magic
3??
Seems to make the bard more wizard-like, but can't use meat magic. Unfortunately I'm not sure how this class is supposed to work, so I can't say more.


Cleric
1
All?
Sphere Cleric
Spheres of Power
2-3
Cleric is a difficult class to replace with solely a single SoP class, as none of them are as encompassing.* The power loss is due the spheres as you are more limited in the effects a certain character can use, compared to prepared casters of the core rules.


Cleric
1
Ranged spells and attacks, buffing, healing, minions
Incanter
Spheres of Power
2-3
If you care more about the magic part, then Incanter - the SoP wizard - is the right choice. You lose weapon and armor proficiencies and have only a low BAB, but if your concept does not require them, you can more easily tailor the rest for a great fit. Channel Energy and Cleric Domains (without spells) are available.


Cleric
1
Ranged spells and attacks, buffing, healing, minions
Soul Weaver
Spheres of Power
3
If you want to be more necromancer with some nice new abilities than the Cleric, then choose this class.


Cleric
1
Healing, Melee
Hedgewitch
Spheres of Power
3
While only a mid-caster, the traditions Combat and Covenant provide cleric-y powers. Certainly an alternative, which provides also options otherwise not accessible.


Druid
1
All?
Sphere Druid
Spheres of Power
2-3
A druid has access to quite a lot options. Shapeshifting can be accessed at level 1, but - starting from 4th level - has a limited duration of 10 minutes per level - unless you get the capstone of permanent duration (assuming target is personal)**. Spellcasting is limited as the Sphere Sorcerer, but you get nice things for the Alteration sphere - which probably shares first place with Conjuration. So this might provide enough of a push for the higher Tier. Again, less flexible on accessible spell effects compared to prepared casters.


Druid
1
Support, Combat, Battle Field Control
Elementalist with the Geomancer archetype
Spheres of Power (Expanded Options)
3
While the Geomancer is a mid-caster for the nearly all spheres, he is a high-caster for the Nature sphere - the most important one - and gets nice bonuses to the caster level to the Nature sphere packages. Basically choose this option if you want to specialize on all things nature. You don't get most features of a core druid, but the ones you get are helpful enough and fit the druid theme still.


Druid
1
Support, ???
Hedgewitch
Spheres of Power
3
If shapeshifting is not your focus, then take the Green Magic tradition. This gives the non-shifty powers of the Druid. While not a part the core Druid, the Herbology tradition provides access to Alchemists' potions. Certainly an interesting option, if you can accept that Hedgewitch is merely a mid-caster.


Druid
1
Scout, Melee
Shifter
Spheres of Power
3
If you want to be a great shapeshifter then this class is made for you. While the extended shapeshift goes online later at 9th level, the various options are a feast for those who want to have fun with shapechanging. Sorry, I'm drooling. :smallredface: The trade-off is that you are only a mid-caster with a reduced number of magic talents.


Fighter
5
???
Fighter with Myrmidon archetype
Path of War: Expanded
4??
Can't say how that changes the class, as I have no experience with it.


Fighter
5
All?
Warder
Path of War
3??
A defense focused class.


Fighter
5
All?
Warlord
Path of War
3??
A teamwork focused class.


Monk
6
All
Monk with the Monk of the Silver Fist archetype
Path of War: Expanded
???
Like the Stalker you lose Flurry of Blows. :( Not compatible with its UM version, as Abundant Step and Quivering Palm are there part of the new ki system.


Monk
6
All
Unchained Monk
Pathfinder Unchained
5-6
For a supposed improvement this falls quite flat according common consensus. For my purpose not recommendable.


Monk
5
All?
Warlord with Steelfist Commando archetype and Thrashing Dragon school
Path of War
3??
A teamwork focused class.


Monk
6
All?
Stalker
Path of War
???
While the Stalker has some Rogue elements included, those seem to be the combat-oriented ones. While there is no replacement of the Flurry of Blows obvious to me (maybe some maneuvers can replicate it), the Stalker seems by virtue of having complete access to maneuvers stronger than the Paizo Monks.


Paladin
4
All?
Sphere Paladin
Spheres of Power
4
A handicapped low-caster (CL 7 at 20th level) and only 8 magic talents over the entire progression (discounting the two bonus magic talents every caster gets) make the magic part sad. On the other hand, you can choose from all spheres, so choosing complementary effects can provide a big boost. The core rules might have a CL of 17 at 20th level, but not a spell list which could capitalize on this.


Paladin
4
All?
Mageknight with Holy Warrior of Light archetype
Spheres of Power (Expanded Options)
3-4
A low-caster (CL 10 at 20th level) and 11 magic talents over the entire progression (discounting the two bonus magic talents every caster gets) limit the magic part somewhat. On the other hand, most abilities of the Paladin are granted or accessible, leaving only the mount*** and the immunities (which are replaced by some broader resistances) make this for the most part a better Paladin than the Sphere Paladin. If only we could get the mount by choosing the - incompatible - archetype Dragoon as well... Note: According to the author, it can be made work if another freely choosable talent is allowed to be traded away for the mount instead of resist magic.


Paladin
4
All?
Armorist
Spheres of Power
3-4
A low-caster (CL 10 at 20th level) and 10 magic talents over the entire progression (discounting the two bonus magic talents every caster gets) limit the magic part somewhat. On the other hand, you can choose from all spheres, so choosing complementary effects can provide a big boost. Protection, Light, Life are the spheres closest to the functions a Paladin has, but the mechanics quite differ. Also no mount.***


Paladin
4
All?
Martial class/Hedgewitch
Pathfinder Unchained/Path of War/Spheres of Power
???
If you want magic then Hedgewitch with the Covenant and Green Magic traditions comes close to mimic the Paladin abilities. For more martial prowess multiclass with your favorite martial one. The trade-off here is losing some BAB compared to a Sphere Paladin.


Paladin
4
Non-magic ones, magic scouting
Paladin with Knight Disciple archetype
Path of War: Expanded
???
No spells and no mount*** or enhanced weaponry and... Actually, left are modified Lay on Hands and Mercies, instead you get a lot of Detect Somethings and can protect your teammates quite effectively.


Paladin
4
Non-magic ones
Warder
Path of War
???
The Aegis and other abilities geared to help allies are fitting with the Paladin theme. No magic as well no special mount*** are the big trade-off here.


Paladin
4
Non-magic ones
Warder with the Ordained Defender Archetype
Path of War
???
If you want a bit more magic then you get can some bit and pieces compared to the Warder.


Paladin
4
Non-magic ones
Warder/Warlord with the Hussar archetype
Path of War
???
This one is "I wanna keep the mount!!1!" for the Paladin fans. Is otherwise just tanky.


Paladin
4
Non-magic ones
Warlord
Path of War
???
Tactical Presence, Force of Personality and other abilities geared to help allies are fitting with the Paladin theme. No magic as well no special mount*** are the big trade-off here.


Paladin
4
All?
Warder/Warlord with the Hussar archetype/CL 3 (take any SoP class)/Battle Templar
Path of War, Spheres of Power
3?
For people who want to have magic like the Paladin and wanting to wield it like the Magus, the Battle Templar prestige class seems interesting. A Sphere Battle Templar would require a CL 3 instead second level of a divine casting class and be a mid-caster, providing one magic talent when the CL increases. So at BT 10, you would have around the same number of magic talents and CL 10 as the Warrior of Holy Light at level 20. Which means you can freely add more martial stuff for the last levels, or go increase the magic prowess more. Or choose a gish class.


Paladin
4
All aside requiring mounted combat?
Zealot
Path of War - Expanded
???
The Paladin theme is provided by the team oriented powers. No magic as well no special mount*** are the big trade-off here.


Ranger
4
All?
Sphere Ranger
Spheres of Power
4
There is no SoP which comes close to the feel of the Ranger, although the Shifter has access to Favored Terrain and Favored Enemy. A handicapped low-caster (CL 7 at 20th level) and only 8 magic talents over the entire progression (discounting the two bonus magic talents every caster gets) make the magic part sad. On the other hand, you can choose from all spheres, so choosing complementary effects can provide a big boost. The core rules might have a CL of 17 at 20th level, but not a spell list which could capitalize on this.


Ranger
4
All?
Ranger with the Ambush Hunters archetype
Path of War: Expanded
???
The biggest trade-off is the loss of the spells. But your animal companion can do martial stuff as well! The other stuff looks cool as well.


Rogue
5
All
Rogue with Hidden Blade archetype
Path of War: Expanded
4???
For the price of 5 rogue talents you get access to the martial stuff and a number of nice to have things. Compared what you trade-out definitively an improvement. And as luck would have it, you can actually use the UR variant as base class, which has a chance to push this into Tier 4.


Rogue
5
All
Unchained Rogue
Pathfinder Unchained
4
The Unchained version has received an upgrade by one tier level, but still falls flat compared to the Arcane Trickster replacement mentioned below. Overall this version might be too weak still.


Rogue
5
All?
Stalker with Vigilante archetype
Path of War (Expanded)
4??
I added Slayer as a Rogue replacement earlier, but the lack of trapfinding made me unhappy. But look no further, with Vigilante archetype Stalker looks like Arnold and Rogue like Danny from Twins.


Rogue
5
Trapfinding, martial ones
Luckbringer with the Black Cat Burgler archetype
The Secrets of Adventuring
4??
This class/archetype has access to Trapfinding, but not access to sneak attack. Instead it seems to be a debuffer. Works as a face as well.


Sorcerer
2
All?
Sphere Sorcerer
Spheres of Power
3
A Sphere Sorcerer is powerful, but trades part of their magic talents for spell points and bloodline feats compared to an Incanter. This I feel costs them too much flexibility to warrant Tier 2. On the other hand, with the increased SP pool, you can more often the stronger effects. This makes still a compelling choice, if you don't care about casting drawbacks or want to use them for boons instead.


Sorcerer
2
All?
Incanter
Spheres of Power
2-3
If there would have been no specific Sorcerer conversion, there would have been no doubt which SoP class would be the replacement. You can get even some part of the Sorcerer's bloodline powers (no feats or spells). Depending on load-out, the Incanter can still reach Tier 2, but this is no longer a guarantee.


Wizard
1
All?
Sphere Wizard
Spheres Of Power
2-3
This class is an Incanter with preselected options. Forget about it. Unless the option happen to be what want to choose anyway. Then you might be happy that you get Scribe Scroll as a free bonus feat. Otherwise all I can say about this option is the same as I say below.;)


Wizard
1
All?
Incanter
Spheres Of Power
2-3
There is a Sphere Wizard, but that class is strictly a lesser Incanter. Forget about it. The Incanter gets bonus feats like the Wizard, but can trade them at 1st level for special abilities. It's those who provide flavor and differentiation on the class feature-side. Otherwise, an Incanter has less flexibility as they can't change their load-out.


Arcane Trickster

Any not requiring unlimited sneak attack
Hedgewitch
Spheres of Power
3
While a PrC, I'd like to mention that with the traditions Academia and Charlatanism you can get an Arcane Trickster from level 1. The Telekinesis sphere has nice abilities if you go for remote skill usage - far superior to Ranged Legerdemain. Also one does get access to sneak attack, but you to pay for them with a Guile Pool. So this is too opportunistic to be reliable.



*Although Armorist and Mageknight are heavy armored spellcasters, they don't seem to capture the cleric-y feeling, so I didn't mention them as choices.

**Sphere Druids don't have the one hour duration as otherwise the Shifter's own progression for increased duration sucks too much in comparison.

*** Mounts may be gained by:

directly investing in Conjuration - which is costly enough (base sphere, Greater Summoning, Lingering Companion, Boon Companion for the optimum)
employing the advanced talent Summoning with DM fiat for requiring less pay - i.e. not requiring daily wages. Also allows to ask your party wizard doing it for you instead of taking these talents.
taking the feats Animal Ally, Boon Companion and Nature Soul - in case, where magic is not an option.

Dienekes
2015-07-11, 06:09 PM
Martials: Use the Path of War stuff, found here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war) There's an expansion that's currently being worked on as well, you can find the information on that in that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423981-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-%28Discussion-Thread-VI%29).

The first can replace Fighters and Barbarians with the Warder and the Warlord, the first is more defensive focused, while the second is more about teamwork. You can make the case for either of them doing a non-magic Paladin-esque role as well. But honestly, the Crusader from Tome of Battle (3.5 D&D) did that better.

The third class is the Stalker, which is like a supernatural ninja. Not really a monk, or a rogue but somewhere in between.

The other option is to look at the Paizo Unchained versions of the Rogue, Monk, and Barbarian. Found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes). I don't know where they fall in the tier ranking, but the general consensus is they're better than the basic versions of the classes, probably tier 4 though.

Mehangel
2015-07-11, 06:28 PM
I would also recommend using Path of War to replace martial characters. It is kind of interesting having the following:

Spellcasters:
o Have At-Will Spells, but have possibility to nuke out on a couple effects. Thus they can do the same spell over and over again all day.

Martials:
o Have Per Encounter Maneuvers, but have the possibility to recover those that it expended. Thus the martial is great for short bursts, but can go all day.

I like to compare Spheres of Power to Path of War via the Following:

Hedgewitch/Elementalist - Mystic
Shifter/Armorist - Warder
Incanter/Mageknight - Warlord
Soul Weaver/Symbiat - Harbringer
Fey Adept - Stalker
Eliciter/Thamaturge - Zealot

It isn't anywhere near a perfect comparison, but even with only access to both path of war and spheres of power you have two separate groups of characters...

EldritchWeaver
2015-07-12, 09:07 AM
Martials: Use the Path of War stuff, found here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war) There's an expansion that's currently being worked on as well, you can find the information on that in that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423981-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-%28Discussion-Thread-VI%29).

The first can replace Fighters and Barbarians with the Warder and the Warlord, the first is more defensive focused, while the second is more about teamwork. You can make the case for either of them doing a non-magic Paladin-esque role as well. But honestly, the Crusader from Tome of Battle (3.5 D&D) did that better.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying. Is Warder replacing only the Fighter and Warlord only replacing the Barbarian or can both PoW classes fill roles of the core classes?

Regarding the Paladin: Skimming the classes I see what you mean about the non-magical version of a Paladin. Never having seen the Crusader, but it's not Pathfinder anyway. I suppose multiclassing with a druidic class (the Hedgewitch with Covenant and Green Magic traditions seems appropriate) should provide the healing and mount abilities.


The third class is the Stalker, which is like a supernatural ninja. Not really a monk, or a rogue but somewhere in between.

The other option is to look at the Paizo Unchained versions of the Rogue, Monk, and Barbarian. Found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes). I don't know where they fall in the tier ranking, but the general consensus is they're better than the basic versions of the classes, probably tier 4 though.

The stalker seems more monk than rogue. No trapfinding and similar abilities. The Unchained Rogue seems to be more appropriate. For monk both stalker and unchained monk seem to be appropriate. Barbarian is strange. The Unchained version doesn't seem to be that different if you look only at the tables. I suppose if I already take the other unchained classes, it wouldn't make sense to exclude that variant, considering we're still in Tier 4 here. If people complain about not being able to use maneuvers, then they can the very least take the feats which grant access to them.


I would also recommend using Path of War to replace martial characters. It is kind of interesting having the following:

Spellcasters:
o Have At-Will Spells, but have possibility to nuke out on a couple effects. Thus they can do the same spell over and over again all day.

Martials:
o Have Per Encounter Maneuvers, but have the possibility to recover those that it expended. Thus the martial is great for short bursts, but can go all day.

I like to compare Spheres of Power to Path of War via the Following:

Hedgewitch/Elementalist - Mystic
Shifter/Armorist - Warder
Incanter/Mageknight - Warlord
Soul Weaver/Symbiat - Harbringer
Fey Adept - Stalker
Eliciter/Thamaturge - Zealot

It isn't anywhere near a perfect comparison, but even with only access to both path of war and spheres of power you have two separate groups of characters...

Interesting way to look at it. If I see that correctly then the PoW classes are non-magical versions of these SoP classes?

Edit: I completely forgot, but do you have an opinion about the supplements Ultimate Psionics and Acashic Mysteries I've seen mentioned? Do those have a place here as well? Or are they more additional options?

Dienekes
2015-07-12, 09:24 AM
I'm not quite sure what you are saying. Is Warder replacing only the Fighter and Warlord only replacing the Barbarian or can both PoW classes fill roles of the core classes?

Regarding the Paladin: Skimming the classes I see what you mean about the non-magical version of a Paladin. Never having seen the Crusader, but it's not Pathfinder anyway. I suppose multiclassing with a druidic class (the Hedgewitch with Covenant and Green Magic traditions seems appropriate) should provide the healing and mount abilities.

My apologies for being unclear. What I meant to say is both the Warder and the Warlord can play both the Fighter and the Barbarian archetypes, though the Warder is more defensive focused while the Warlord is more teamwork focused. However, they are both given the Primal Fury school, which is fluffed as being angry and attacking things, which is pretty much as Barbarian as you can get.



The stalker seems more monk than rogue. No trapfinding and similar abilities. The Unchained Rogue seems to be more appropriate. For monk both stalker and unchained monk seem to be appropriate. Barbarian is strange. The Unchained version doesn't seem to be that different if you look only at the tables. I suppose if I already take the other unchained classes, it wouldn't make sense to exclude that variant, considering we're still in Tier 4 here. If people complain about not being able to use maneuvers, then they can the very least take the feats which grant access to them.


I feel the Stalker is a mix of Rogue and Monk mainly for all the stealth abilities it possesses, and that it can get Rogue Talents.

The other option that was fairly popular when Tome of Battle came out (what the Path of War classes are based on) was to take the lower tiered classes, maybe trim a few abilities, and then give them the appropriate schools to use. For Rogue, I'd probably cut Sneak Attack to 2/3 level, and maybe do the same with Rogue Talents, give them access to Steel Serpent, Tempest Gale, Scarlet Throne and call it a day.

Elricaltovilla
2015-07-12, 09:36 AM
Path of War: Expanded (currently in playtest, first PDF released) includes archetypes for Barbarian, Rogue, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger.

Bucky
2015-07-12, 10:26 AM
Path of War: Expanded (currently in playtest, first PDF released) includes archetypes for Barbarian, Rogue, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger.

Fighter with the Martial Master archetype and the Martial Training line of feats from Path of War goes uptier from having spontaneous access to all of a discipline's low-level maneuvers and stances.

Elricaltovilla
2015-07-12, 10:35 AM
Fighter with the Martial Master archetype and the Martial Training line of feats from Path of War goes uptier from having spontaneous access to all of a discipline's low-level maneuvers and stances.

I forgot that there's a Fighter archetype too, which is compatible with nearly every other fighter archetype, including Martial Master. Using Martial Master to pick up the Martial Training line of feats is pretty expensive in terms of feat cost, but useable.

Elkad
2015-07-12, 11:20 AM
Looks like you can make a pretty decent paladin with an Armorer.

I can sure make it fit the style of holy warrior. Equipment provided by the gods that shifts to the form and powers you need. Maybe Protection and Light spheres, with a bit of Life.
Getting your mount is harder, as it takes a good share of your talents dumped into Conjuration.

Tuvarkz
2015-07-12, 11:30 AM
Tbh I've always felt like the Harbringer has a Magus/Anti-Paladin feel to it.

stack
2015-07-12, 01:30 PM
There are archetypes for the mage knight that are VERY paladin/antipaladin in Expanded Option. PoW:E zealot does this too, with a psionic twist. Spheres paladin has such a gimped CL that I shy away from it. The elementalist (geomancer) from expanded options does nature-y druid well (gets nature sphere at full CL plus level boosts to the various packages, up to +6 for one). Spheres magus from expanded options is a great gish on its own and an excellent dip to melee-up other classes.

EldritchWeaver
2015-07-12, 04:32 PM
I feel the Stalker is a mix of Rogue and Monk mainly for all the stealth abilities it possesses, and that it can get Rogue Talents.

It still lacks access to Trapfinding and similar, which I find important enough to have somehow access to without requiring a magic class. But yes, the Stalker takes the combat-orientated stuff from the Rogue.


Path of War: Expanded (currently in playtest, first PDF released) includes archetypes for Barbarian, Rogue, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger.

Do these archetyps work also for the Unchained versions? Those seem to be at least simpler to play even if they lack the power boost.


Looks like you can make a pretty decent paladin with an Armorer.

I can sure make it fit the style of holy warrior. Equipment provided by the gods that shifts to the form and powers you need. Maybe Protection and Light spheres, with a bit of Life.
Getting your mount is harder, as it takes a good share of your talents dumped into Conjuration.

The Armorist can get access to the Summoning advanced talent easily. Assuming that the mount is some kind of servant to the very same god the Paladin works for, I'd see it reasonable not to require actual gold, but some items to improve the equipment of the mount over the time they are questing together. Only question is, how the Armorist can turn the summon into an animal companion. Isn't there a feat for this? Hmm, looking through the Armorist archetypes, Warleader provides a mount and teamwork feats. Looks a bit Paladin-y.


There are archetypes for the mage knight that are VERY paladin/antipaladin in Expanded Option. PoW:E zealot does this too, with a psionic twist. Spheres paladin has such a gimped CL that I shy away from it. The elementalist (geomancer) from expanded options does nature-y druid well (gets nature sphere at full CL plus level boosts to the various packages, up to +6 for one). Spheres magus from expanded options is a great gish on its own and an excellent dip to melee-up other classes.

This is what I get for not completely reading the PDF yet. :( The Warrior of the Holy Light archetype for the Mageknight is very Paladin-y indeed. Except for losing the mount. Which one could get by taking the Dragoon archetype - if those archetypes would be compatible. So Summoning or Animal Companion feat are the way to go here.

stack
2015-07-12, 07:41 PM
I thought they were compatible archetypes, guess I need to check again.

stack
2015-07-13, 07:01 AM
Checked, both replace resist magic. Missed that before. Seems wrong that they can't stack. Guess there isn't much else to trade out at first level. Could lose the first mystic combat I guess. Not like getting an animal companion makes good dip fodder due to scaling, so pushing back the cost wouldn't hurt.

Hedgewitch can grab a tradition for an AC and another for lay hands and similar, making a psuedo-paladin as well.

Sacrieur
2015-07-13, 07:32 AM
You're in luck, there's a system developed to do this. I'm working on other systems to further increase balance, but in the interim it's the best I've got. It's called the Initiator Balance Rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418881-Initiator-Alternate-Rule-Balance-Fix). The feedback I'm getting from games it has been implemented in has been very positive.

The problem we run into when we try to fix the problems with PF/D&D 3.5 is that there's too much content and too many problems. To really fix it you have to rewrite the CRB. That's just a nightmare, as I'm sure you'll have figured out, since players are wary of having all these new changes they don't understand thrust upon them and people are less willing to trust "unofficial" and homebrew content, however fallacious it may be to do so.

EldritchWeaver
2015-07-13, 03:06 PM
Path of War: Expanded (currently in playtest, first PDF released) includes archetypes for Barbarian, Rogue, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger.

Managed to find the playtest documents. The archetypes one references classes like Dread or Marksman, but I haven't seen those one. In which book are they?

stack
2015-07-13, 03:15 PM
Dread and marksman are psionic classes.

Mehangel
2015-07-13, 03:16 PM
Managed to find the playtest documents. The archetypes one references classes like Dread or Marksman, but I haven't seen those one. In which book are they?

Ultimate Psionics, you can find them on the PFSRD.

EldritchWeaver
2015-07-13, 06:14 PM
There are archetypes for the mage knight that are VERY paladin/antipaladin in Expanded Option. PoW:E zealot does this too, with a psionic twist. Spheres paladin has such a gimped CL that I shy away from it. The elementalist (geomancer) from expanded options does nature-y druid well (gets nature sphere at full CL plus level boosts to the various packages, up to +6 for one). Spheres magus from expanded options is a great gish on its own and an excellent dip to melee-up other classes.

I skimmed Zealot and although I see what you mean I don't want to introduce another subsystem. Still, there are some PoW:E archetypes for the old PoW classes which shore up some gaps left yet. Will add them once I have the time. Just going to mention Vigilante for Stalker - has the Trapfinding stuff I couldn't find yet for PoW.

Edit: Decided to add Zealot as I keep my houserules out of my post now.


You're in luck, there's a system developed to do this. I'm working on other systems to further increase balance, but in the interim it's the best I've got. It's called the Initiator Balance Rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418881-Initiator-Alternate-Rule-Balance-Fix). The feedback I'm getting from games it has been implemented in has been very positive.

I like this as it can be applied to all classes without access to the initiator stuff. Hmm, just occurred to me, if you get martial stuff over feats, do your levels still count to the aBAB as before?


The problem we run into when we try to fix the problems with PF/D&D 3.5 is that there's too much content and too many problems. To really fix it you have to rewrite the CRB. That's just a nightmare, as I'm sure you'll have figured out, since players are wary of having all these new changes they don't understand thrust upon them and people are less willing to trust "unofficial" and homebrew content, however fallacious it may be to do so.

Luckily my group consists of PF newbies, so I'm the resident expert and GM and people believe what I say anyway. ;P

Sacrieur
2015-07-13, 10:40 PM
I like this as it can be applied to all classes without access to the initiator stuff. Hmm, just occurred to me, if you get martial stuff over feats, do your levels still count to the aBAB as before?

The only thing that's ignored when calculating aBAB is initiatior classes. If you're using VMC to take levels in barbarian with warblade class features, then it counts towards your aBAB as before. The definition of what defines what levels you take as an initiator class or not depends not on whether or not they grant you maneuvers, but rather whether or not the class counts as full initiator levels (as opposed to half).

The Martial Training feat line uses its own way of determining what your initiator level is (1/2 class level + ability mod).

EldritchWeaver
2015-07-14, 01:55 AM
I got another question regarding the aBAB calculation. Differing to core, Spheres of Power has no spell levels. There is only the rule to divide the CL by 2 of a certain effect to calculate the effective spell level if it is required. But as in core, varies bonuses can affect the CL, so one could argue to simply use the BCL (base caster level) for determining the spell level. But some classes which are overall a mid-caster (meaning BCL 15 at level 20) have for a certain sphere a BCL of 20 at level 20. Do I see it correctly that for your system only the main BCL should be used for determining aBAB? Also should I cap the spell level at 9? A BCL 20 results in a spell level 10 and the effects can scale effectively beyond spell level 9. Or does +/-1 one for the aBAB not matter that much?

Psyren
2015-07-14, 08:18 AM
Rogue is T6, and Unchained Rogue is T5? Am I the only one who knows how to build one? :smallsigh:

Extra Anchovies
2015-07-14, 09:36 AM
Rogue and uRogue are high 5 (or low 4, not sure which) and mid-high 4 respectively. It can't be T6, because it's objectively better than the Expert in all ways but one (getting to pick your own class skills).

The thing that makes the Slayer T4 is that they're rather good at fighting (studied target + sneak attack + full BAB + bonus feats) and can do more than just stand around when not in a fight. It gets especially good if you're willing to make the rogue talents -> slayer talents logical jump and apply the Hidden Blade archetype (PoW:E is intentionally ignoring alternate classes and ACG for now, hence this not having actually happened).

Also, what does "All except AT capstone dependent" mean? AT's capstone isn't variable.

Psyren
2015-07-14, 09:47 AM
I'd go further and say that base PF Rogue is T5, certain archetypes get it to T4 (e.g. Scout, Underground Chemist, Counterfeit Mage etc.) since you become more capable in a fight, and Unchained Rogue can get up to T3.

Also, Paladin can get to T3 with some archetypes like Sacred Servant.

Sacrieur
2015-07-14, 10:15 AM
have for a certain sphere a BCL of 20 at level 20.

It's decided by the most powerful spell you can cast.

If a spell is effectively 10th level, you'd treat it as a 10th level spell.

EldritchWeaver
2015-07-14, 11:02 AM
Regarding the Rogue Tier: Maybe I chose a bad source for my Tiers. I'll update once I had time to check this. Considering that I neither have played a Rogue nor have seen anyone play one I can't really say much (I play magic classes, not melee ones, which is detrimental for judging the actual abilities for the unplayed ones) and have to defer to others.


Also, what does "All except AT capstone dependent" mean? AT's capstone isn't variable.

Sorry that's not clear enough. :smallfrown: I looked once into AT guides if building an AT would be fun. There I discovered that the AT capstone allows sneak damage with spells which otherwise can't be used for sneaking. And it's an area sneak attack to boot. IIRC, a certain build uses this ability to deal damage in particular. As the Hedgewitch does not have this capstone ability this particular build would no longer work under SoP (unless you choose to take the AT PrC, of course). Which I referred to as "capstone dependent". Oh, checking SoP again, I noticed I forgot to take into account that the Hedgewitch's sneak attacking is powered by a guile pool, which limits the number of usage anyway. Which might not make a sneak attack build not viable anymore. I'll update accordingly.

upho
2015-07-20, 04:32 PM
Class Name
Tier
Roles
Replacement
Source
Tier
Notes


Paladin
4
Non-magic ones
Warder
Path of War
???
The Aegis and other abilities geared to help allies are fitting with the Paladin theme. No magic as well no special mount*** are the big trade-off here.


Paladin
4
Non-magic ones
Warlord
Path of War
???
Tactical Presence, Force of Personality and other abilities geared to help allies are fitting with the Paladin theme. No magic as well no special mount*** are the big trade-off here.



*** Mounts may be gained by:

directly investing in Conjuration - which is costly enough (base sphere, Greater Summoning, Lingering Companion, Boon Companion for the optimum)
employing the advanced talent Summoning with DM fiat for requiring less pay - i.e. not requiring daily wages. Also allows to ask your party wizard doing it for you instead of taking these talents.
taking the feats Animal Ally, Boon Companion and Nature Soul - in case, where magic is not an option.

The warder and warlord can also grab the Hussar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M6VC1CGrL85oC2mE22eoBXyKjD-Z9a9bhom8JhTirKM/edit) archetype to gain a full "level=druid level" animal companion mount. A hussar warder is probably as traditionally "tank-pally-ish" as the PoW classes will ever get.

(If said hussar warder is combined with a dip into cleric and the Battle Templar PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/battle-templar), you've got a pally that's arguably more of a pally than the core pally. And definitely above tier 4.)

137beth
2015-07-20, 11:32 PM
Warlord can also replace monk to an extent. Thrashing Dragon on its own is great for unarmed fighters. However, the Steelfist Commando (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/steelfist-commando-warlord-archetype) warlord archetype is obviously designed with monk-replacement in mind. It gets a bunch of bonuses with unarmed strikes and monk weapons, a scaling dodge bonus to AC, and all the disciplines that are unarmed-attack-friendly.

Other replacements are possible. For example, the Luckbringer (The Secrets of Adventuring) works as a rogue replacement, especially when given the Black Cat Burgler archetype (found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/rite-publishing/luckbringer#black)).

The Bard can be replaced by the Maestro (from Ultimate Composition (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/142403/Ultimate-Composition?term=ultimate+compo) and compiled in Strange Magic (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/149011/Strange-Magic--Ethermagic-Composition-and-Truemagic?term=strange+magic)). It introduces its own subsystem, which is possibly my favorite subsystem in the game (hence why I mention it:smalltongue:)

EldritchWeaver
2015-07-21, 06:01 PM
The warder and warlord can also grab the Hussar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M6VC1CGrL85oC2mE22eoBXyKjD-Z9a9bhom8JhTirKM/edit) archetype to gain a full "level=druid level" animal companion mount. A hussar warder is probably as traditionally "tank-pally-ish" as the PoW classes will ever get.

(If said hussar warder is combined with a dip into cleric and the Battle Templar PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/battle-templar), you've got a pally that's arguably more of a pally than the core pally. And definitely above tier 4.)

Funny that this PrC is called Hussar, but the document calls still itself Dragoon. Interesting option for sure as a Paladin replacement as it provides nicely the magic power. :)


Warlord can also replace monk to an extent. Thrashing Dragon on its own is great for unarmed fighters. However, the Steelfist Commando (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/steelfist-commando-warlord-archetype) warlord archetype is obviously designed with monk-replacement in mind. It gets a bunch of bonuses with unarmed strikes and monk weapons, a scaling dodge bonus to AC, and all the disciplines that are unarmed-attack-friendly.

Nice! I've missed having a non-monk monk!


Other replacements are possible. For example, the Luckbringer (The Secrets of Adventuring) works as a rogue replacement, especially when given the Black Cat Burgler archetype (found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/rite-publishing/luckbringer#black)).

I see where you come from . :)


The Bard can be replaced by the Maestro (from Ultimate Composition (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/142403/Ultimate-Composition?term=ultimate+compo) and compiled in Strange Magic (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/149011/Strange-Magic--Ethermagic-Composition-and-Truemagic?term=strange+magic)). It introduces its own subsystem, which is possibly my favorite subsystem in the game (hence why I mention it:smalltongue:)

I admit looking through Maestro's class features (d20pfsrd.com has this class as well) I don't see how the scores are supposed to work. Maybe I missed the important bit because I skimmed everything, but I fail how a score can provide actual powers. Also how many spells per day can the Maestro cast each level?


To all posters:
I added all of your suggestions - thanks for your help so far!

Laurent
2017-03-11, 07:36 AM
Sorry for the necro... but this topic has been VERY USEFUL FOR ME, still now...

Is there somewhere such an effort about base classes and hybrid classes ?

Rhedyn
2017-03-11, 10:26 AM
Rogue is T6, and Unchained Rogue is T5? Am I the only one who knows how to build one? :smallsigh:
Rogue is T5 because the pf classes only go down to T5. Urogue gets to be T4 because they have functional class features.

Rogues are still awful suicidal classes to play.

EldritchWeaver
2017-03-11, 04:02 PM
Sorry for the necro... but this topic has been VERY USEFUL FOR ME, still now...

Is there somewhere such an effort about base classes and hybrid classes ?

You want to replace the newer Paizo classes, which aren't Tier 2-4? That's not something I have tried yet, considering I don't use most of these classes anyway. Not to mention that I'm not sure if those classes have been tiered already, so I wouldn't know which are too strong. The general advice would be to use SoP archetypes for the newer classes (even if some need some errata to reflect their class better). Some classes are too close to SoP classes, so at best an archetype to reuse the unique mechanics makes sense (mesmerist -> eliciter and kinetecist -> elementalist come to my mind).


Rogue is T5 because the pf classes only go down to T5. Urogue gets to be T4 because they have functional class features.

Rogues are still awful suicidal classes to play.

I think you posted in the wrong thread.

upho
2017-03-11, 07:52 PM
Sorry for the necro... but this topic has been VERY USEFUL FOR ME, still now...

Is there somewhere such an effort about base classes and hybrid classes ?Well, all of the base and hybrid 6/9 caster classes are already T3 (or T2 in the case of the Summoner), so unless you also want to use only the SoP magic system, none of these need to be replaced or altered in order to meet the goal set in the OP (only T2-T3 classes, or T4 in a pinch).

When it comes to the rest of them, these are my replacement suggestions, all high T4 - mid T3 (classes/archetypes without a link can be found on d20pfsrd.com):

Bloodrager has no PoW archetypes yet, and it's already very high T4. I'd probably just make the Primalist archetype a part of the vanilla class, which should be more than enough to push it into T3. If you'd like to open up the class to PoW stuff, you could for example add the Martial Training feats to the bonus feats lists of each bloodline, or perhaps trade one spell/day and one spell known/level with the standard PoW archetype limited initiating progression. (You could also add (warning: shameless advertising) my homebrew Wrathblood archetype (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442363-Wrathblood-The-Monster-Bloodrager-Archetype-New-and-Improved-Monstrous-Thread!) as an option.)
Brawler has the PoW Contender archetype (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487641-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Fool-s-Errand) soon to be published which definitely improves the class, maybe not to T3, but enough IMO.
Cavalier is pretty perfectly represented by a warlord hussar.
Gunslinger is probably best replaced by a Desperado (or Privateer) warlord (possibly mixed with three levels of Trench Fighter + Myrmidon fighter for Dex to damage with guns).
Slayer rogue with Hidden Blade archetype or stalker.
Swashbuckler Myrmidon fighter or Privateer warlord.
Vigilante has the PoW Night Terror archetype (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487641-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Fool-s-Errand) soon to be published.



Not to mention that I'm not sure if those classes have been tiered already, so I wouldn't know which are too strong.This is actually a community effort going on right now (see for example this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516934-Retiering-the-classes-(PF)-Wizard-Cleric-Druid-and-Witch)).


Rogue is T5 because the pf classes only go down to T5.Did you happen to notice the post you replied to is about 20 months old?

Anyhow, of course PF has T6 classes. It's just that none of them are PC classes.

Haruki-kun
2017-03-11, 10:54 PM
The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.