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View Full Version : A question and a thought regarding prepared spells



SouthpawSoldier
2015-07-12, 12:50 PM
I'm curious about people's preferred method of tracking prepared spells. Index cards, chosen from a stack? Always preparing the same spells, with a couple empty spaces so you can prepare a spell tailored for the situation?

Puzzling over that question, I had an idea for Divine casters; random or DM selection of prepared spells each day. Instead of the character getting what they want, the deity grants them the spells they need, and they are expected to be inventive in implementation of divine will.

Red Fel
2015-07-12, 01:22 PM
I'm curious about people's preferred method of tracking prepared spells. Index cards, chosen from a stack? Always preparing the same spells, with a couple empty spaces so you can prepare a spell tailored for the situation?

I don't generally play spellcasters. But when I do, I find reference cards ideal. I also prefer to use a core set of spells that are always or generally useful, and only switch around a few peripheral "option" slots for the immediate situation.


Puzzling over that question, I had an idea for Divine casters; random or DM selection of prepared spells each day. Instead of the character getting what they want, the deity grants them the spells they need, and they are expected to be inventive in implementation of divine will.

Ooh, I could see that going horribly wrong. Most spells in a D&D-style game aren't designed to be used "creatively" - they explicitly state what they do, and that's all, full stop. Giving the PCs "the spells they need" smacks of "read my mind" railroading, and that can go south in a big hurry. Assuming you're using the spells by RAW, you've just told the PCs exactly what's coming. ("Well, my deity gave me a bunch of buff and battlefield control spells, so I guess we're going to be fighting a lot." "Well, today it's five versions of Fly, so I guess we're traveling." "Well, Wind Wall suggests that we'll be facing archers.") This basically attempts to prevent the PCs from derailing your plot; if the party doesn't get into the situation you intended, the divine caster's spells are pretty much useless for that day.

I suppose you could get away from the "I'm giving you what you need" angle, but unless there is a great deal of trust between player and DM, there's no way for the DM to win. Either the DM selects spells which aren't beneficial under the circumstances, and the players call him out for deliberately hosing them; or the DM selects spells which will be beneficial, and the players call him out for stacking the deck in their favor and railroading; or the DM selects spells truly at random (e.g. by putting together a "random spell table" and rolling on it), and the players call him out for the fact that they have five instances of Purify Food and Drink prepared.

SouthpawSoldier
2015-07-12, 01:27 PM
I don't generally play spellcasters. But when I do, I find reference cards ideal. I also prefer to use a core set of spells that are always or generally useful, and only switch around a few peripheral "option" slots for the immediate situation.

I figured this would be the standard. Best balance of easy bookkeeping and versatility.


... or the DM selects spells truly at random (e.g. by putting together a "random spell table" and rolling on it), and the players call him out for the fact that they have five instances of Purify Food and Drink prepared.

I'm not limiting the concept to 3.5/PF, though that's a valid issue. I'm also thinking of systems like 5e, without the fire and forget aspect of casting.

JNAProductions
2015-07-12, 02:02 PM
It'd still be kinda nasty. I don't often play divine casters, but I would NEVER play as a Cleric under those settings. (Might play Paladin, but that's because I can use spell slots for smiting.)

Surpriser
2015-07-12, 04:03 PM
I see two ways how this could work:
1) "Spells" are really just a rather general domain of influence, where everything within this domain can be somehow influenced by the spellcaster (limited by the level of the spell or the caster). A typical example would be the elements (and their various extensions). So you pray in the morning and get access to X applications of fire magic, Y applications of wardings and Z applications of healing. Your chosen patron deity as well as feats or other abilities should influence the spells received. During the day, you would be able to use all of these influences as you see fit for the current situation.
2) Divine Casters are converted into spontaneous casters, who don't gain known spells, only spell slots. If they want to cast something, they specify level and the desired effect and pray. The DM then implements this request according to the theme of the deity. For example, a cleric of Kord prays for assistance in battle and gets all the boni of the spell Righteous Might (or some other spell that fits the thematic and power level).

In both cases, this would require a major overhaul of the magic system (for D&D). The important thing is that player agency is preserved.
Also both variants have in common that the choice of patron deity becomes a lot more important than it was before.

SouthpawSoldier
2015-07-12, 04:24 PM
...
Also both variants have in common that the choice of patron deity becomes a lot more important than it was before.

This was my thought when the whim came to me. I didn't come up with the idea from crunch aspect, so much as a flavor view. It seems presumptuous that divine casters pray for and receive specific spells. While the general idea of divine casting is that prayers (spells) are answered, the casting and spell preparation mechanic as is feels like it reduces deities to a 1-800 number, like the OOTS strip; "Press one for Cure Spells; Press two for Bless; Press three for Lightning Bolt". The caster is supposedly an instrument of their god(s)' will. They're supposedly a supplicant, asking for divine favor.

I'm not suggesting this be used as a way to cut back the character's power or player agency. I just think it would be interesting to have some way of reflecting that the character serves the will of their god(s), instead of vice versa. For example, a Good aligned deity may not be ok with a Cleric providing buffs or healing above a certain spell level to an Evil character, unless it comes with a reduced form of Geas; the target must be honestly repentant of their ways. Maybe a character can't receive certain spells from specific deities; make Domains similar to 3.5 Wizard Schools.

I'm just thinking of ways to make deity choice matter, and reflect the idea of divine service.

Surpriser
2015-07-12, 06:48 PM
A simpler (and probably less problematic) way to accomplish this is to replace one of the regular cleric spells by a second domain spell, possibly balanced a bit by adding a third domain.
Or give the cleric a shugenja-like spell progression, where some of the spells have to be connected to the patron deity's portfolio.

Of course, both of these options are downgrades, but Cleric is Tier 1 anyway.

EDIT: The part about divine service is a bit trickier, as it stands on similar grounds as the alignment issue and every group handles that differently. It depends both on your group's playstyle and on the world you have created (e.g. whether the gods actually intervene in mortal matters - and what about alignment-dedicated clerics?)
Enforcing spell selection to at least partly match the theme of the patron should already help with that issue. If you want a more pronounced impact, you can range from "You sense a hint of disapproval", over caster level reductions or even a full blown spell failure up to denying the cleric (parts of) their spells the next day if they misuse them too often.

VoxRationis
2015-07-12, 06:59 PM
I'm curious about people's preferred method of tracking prepared spells. Index cards, chosen from a stack? Always preparing the same spells, with a couple empty spaces so you can prepare a spell tailored for the situation?

Puzzling over that question, I had an idea for Divine casters; random or DM selection of prepared spells each day. Instead of the character getting what they want, the deity grants them the spells they need, and they are expected to be inventive in implementation of divine will.

My handwriting is really small, so I'm usually able to squeeze a character's entire spellcasting section into the bottom half of one side of a sheet of paper. I set everything up in a table with the following columns, from left to right: Spell Level/Save DC/Per Day/Known/Prepared (the last two obviously vary depending on class; a sorcerer would omit "prepared," a cleric would omit "known," etc.). I then write the spells in the appropriate sections by name. But then again, I rarely play high-level characters, so I don't usually have to keep track of as many spells as you might have to (I don't know what sort of campaigns you usually play in).

goto124
2015-07-12, 08:14 PM
Tying choice of patron to spell choice? Is 'play another class' really a valid answer here, especially since different classes have different mechanics? It looks like 'you can play this set of mechanics if and only if you follow this particular way of roleplay'.

Red Fel
2015-07-12, 08:35 PM
Maybe a character can't receive certain spells from specific deities; make Domains similar to 3.5 Wizard Schools.

A simpler (and probably less problematic) way to accomplish this is to replace one of the regular cleric spells by a second domain spell, possibly balanced a bit by adding a third domain.

Hmm... Actually, there's an idea in here. You know how Cleric domains and Psion disciplines are compared favorably with Wizard specializations? In the sense that Wizards who specialize lose something, but Clerics and Psions gain something extra based on their domains or disciplines, respectively?

Consider taking it in that direction. Instead of getting a spell of your choice to place in your domain slot, your deity places one there. (Call them "deity" slots instead of "domain" slots.) You still choose your domains based upon your deity, and you still gain your domain power. But instead of choosing your daily domain slots, your deity chooses from the spells available to you - not just domain spells necessarily, but any spells available to you - which ones will be useful to you that day.

Alternatively, those slots can be "prayer" slots. They are left empty, but at any time, you can pray for guidance - a general request for aid in your situation. (E.g. "aid us in combat," "help us make them understand," etc.) Your deity responds by dropping a spell into one of those slots which would be appropriate for you. The rest of your spells you prepare as usual, but these remain empty until a request is made. This could be dangerous if overused; for example, if you've already used a third-level spell, and your deity decides that another third-level spell is appropriate, he may use your fourth-level slot to satisfy it.

A third option is to make this an optional rule. Players can go with the normal mechanics if they choose, or with one of these "intermeddling deity" methods. The advantage to the former is more complete control; the advantage to the latter is a combination of flavor and the benefit of gentle hints from the DM.


Tying choice of patron to spell choice? Is 'play another class' really a valid answer here, especially since different classes have different mechanics? It looks like 'you can play this set of mechanics if and only if you follow this particular way of roleplay'.

Well, if you use it like I've suggested, it's less onerous a burden. In essence, the character isn't losing anything - not control, not power, nothing. Instead, he's taking something he got for free - bonus domain slots - and changing them into something flavorful and interesting, that's still free. By making it optional, it becomes even more appealing, because there's no "if and only if" about it.

KillianHawkeye
2015-07-13, 07:33 AM
Well, for my current Wizard character in D&D 3.5, I have a printed out sheet that I update periodically when gaining new spells which has a few different "default" spell lists that each serve a different purpose. Currently, I have one list for "general adventuring" which has the broadest variety of effects in the hope that while many of the selected spells may not always be useful, there will always be at least something I can do in just about any situation; one list that is geared more towards dungeon exploration or if I'm just expecting to get into a heavy combat situation, which is mostly filled with a couple buffs, various debuffs, and a strong selection of crowd control spells; and another list that I haven't gotten much use of but is totally geared towards stealth and infiltration-related spells.

Upon these printed lists, I frequently cross out and write in different spells in pencil when the majority of the list is in order but the specific situations I expect to encounter require some substitutions.

Beyond that, I also use index cards for individual spells as a quick reference and in order to track ranges, areas, save DCs, and specific effects. For example, I have a card for my Wizard's grease spell which indicates the actual range at my level, the Reflex save DC including all my modifiers and such, the Balance check DC that the enemies need to make to move within the area, and a round-by-round counter that I fill up with tick marks to track the duration.

That may sound like a lot of paperwork to do for a casual game, but I find that spellcasters (especially prepared spellcasters, and Wizards in particular) can benefit a lot from out-of-game planning. It really helps to keep the flow of the game moving when you can easily see your options in front of you and don't have to hold things up by looking through a bunch of rulebooks every turn. Also, when playing a super-Intelligent character like a typical Wizard, it helps to put some extra thought into what they would do in various kinds of situations.

Joe the Rat
2015-07-13, 07:50 AM
A list on one or more sheets of paper, and check boxes always worked for me. Checking off or writing down which spells are prepared is sufficient for 5e, though I do see a benefit for cards-for-slots. As in, here's your stack of spell slots to spend (and write what you have prepared in each slot on the card, for "traditional" prep casting editions).
I may fiddle with this next time I play caster.


I think a lot of the ideas here on cleric spell selection could add quite a bit of flavor, but I'd bring this to your players to see what they think. If I were to do it, I'd offer one of the part-selected, part-assigned variants.

Jay R
2015-07-14, 12:21 PM
I prepared a sheet with several lists: the basic traveling adventure list, the basic underground list, the basic battlefield list, the basic town list, plus several empty lists for special occasions.

I also included a standardized adventuring list with a few blanks, to fill in on the day.

Also, since that character was a 2E wizard / thief, I had a special sneaky list for days I knew he'd be slipping into enemy camps or castles.

Deepbluediver
2015-07-14, 01:19 PM
I'm curious about people's preferred method of tracking prepared spells. Index cards, chosen from a stack? Always preparing the same spells, with a couple empty spaces so you can prepare a spell tailored for the situation?

Puzzling over that question, I had an idea for Divine casters; random or DM selection of prepared spells each day. Instead of the character getting what they want, the deity grants them the spells they need, and they are expected to be inventive in implementation of divine will.
Ultimately I'd prefer a homebrewed system that made tracking easier, but maybe that's outside the scope of the question. :smallwink:

One of those small whiteboards usually works pretty well- write down the spells you've prepared for the day with tick-marks for how many copies of each you have, and then you can erase them quickly in the middle of combat.

Honest Tiefling
2015-07-14, 01:52 PM
Puzzling over that question, I had an idea for Divine casters; random or DM selection of prepared spells each day. Instead of the character getting what they want, the deity grants them the spells they need, and they are expected to be inventive in implementation of divine will.

I'd never play a cleric with these rules, but for fluff reasons. If you wanted something, why didn't you ask instead of yanking me around? If YOU are so smart and know what I need, why don't you come here and do it yourself!? I wouldn't need to be so goddamned inventive if you would just give me the Divine Power spell you big baby! Would you kindly stop interfering with me trying to spread your faith and defeat your enemies for 1 freaking day!?

I much prefer to play a cleric as the mortal eyes and ears of the gods, their agents in the mortal/prime material/whatever world. Having the gods pick the spell makes the cleric seem less like the faithful servant and more like a punching bag to me. The god either doesn't trust the mortal to select the right spells, or they're being a massive troll and trying to force creativity when the cleric is already busy trying to serve the god.

Now if there was a god of insanity, that would be quite amusing. Maybe shuffle in some nice appropriately themed wizard/sorcerer spells to make up for the loss of tactical ability. I wouldn't see many people picking this option, but some might for variation for a shorter game.

The prayer slot idea that Red Fel had? I sorta like it. It makes it seem like the cleric has a genuine connection to their god. Maybe make the ability tied to some aspect of the god, and that it recharges when certain acts are completed with a sane maximum. For instance, for a god of protection, every time the cleric keeps watch or protects another it recharges, but can only recharge once per day. Something easy enough to complete with the other characters, but specific enough to encourage that sort of thinking that is appropriate to the god. Sure, they'd get the ability 99% of the time, but it makes the player keep in mind the aspect of the god when playing the character.