Combat styles balance

[heavyfuel]

I'm starting a new campaign in a bit, and the group wants to experiment with PF (we play 3.5 usually). I was down with it, but my experience with the system is laughable.

Regarding Combat Styles: In 3.5, 2 handed was king, and I had houserules in place to make it less so (eg, all TWF feats were compressed in a single one). Now in PF, I want to know where each combat style stands. Is TWF still only good if you're a Rogue? Does Sword and Board become useless after lv 6? Things like that. Houserules suggestions are welcome.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm going to assume you want to stick to Paizo content, in which case the strongest combat styles are either archery or mounted charging. Also, if you do want to exclude third party material, you should probably say so in the OP, because otherwise this is just going to turn into another Path of War thread.

Archery is so strong because it has damage comparable to and likely better than THF (slightly less damage per hit because Deadly Aim is 2-for-1 while Power Attack is 3-for-1, but you deal out more hits due to Manyshot and Rapid Shot), plus you can almost guarantee getting a full attack every round, which is not something any other style can do.

Mounted charging probably has higher damage output than even archery does, but it's one of the more battlefield-dependent fighting styles.

THF is strong, but not overpowered. I consider it to be the proper balance point for a combat style.

TWF is a little underpowered, but it's viable on some classes. Vivisectionist Alchemist is probably the best, since they get full sneak attack and have a nice suite of combat buffs, especially if they put some discoveries into buffing their mutagen. Ninjas and Slayers are both nice; the former because it gets full sneak attack and a reliable means of proccing it, and the latter because it has full BAB and a scaling to-hit buff, allowing the use of Piranha Strike without accuracy issues.

Sword and Board isn't any good because +2 to +7 AC isn't worth dealing less damage than TWF does. Best defense is a good offense and all.

One-handed weapons with a free hand is bad for everyone except the Magus, but they can't not fight that way.

Unarmed combat still has issues, mostly because it functions similarly to TWF but neither of the unarmed-focused classes (Brawler, Monk) get appreciable damage boosts. Sacred Fist Warpriest could make it work but you'd be better of picking up Crusader's Flurry and using a polearm.

[grarrrg]

TWF is a little underpowered...Ninjas and Slayers are both nice; the former because ... and the latter because it has full BAB and a scaling to-hit buff, allowing the use of Piranha Strike without accuracy issues.

Slayer also has the option of going "all in STR" as they can grab the TWF line without needing DEX. Saves the need to take other feats/specific gear/etc...


You missed 2, admittedly less common, options.

Firearms. If Gunslinger this can get fairly crazy at mid/high levels. If not Gunslinger, this is fairly poor.

TWF with 2 Shields. Offensively maybe not quite as good as TWF with actual weapons, but there is a fair amount of support: Still getting Shield Bonus when attacking (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-shield-bash-combat---final), adding Shield Enhancement bonus to Attack/Damage rolls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat---final) (so you don't need to spend double $$), free hits when you Crit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bashing-finish-combat), free Bull Rushes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-slam-combat---final). Two-Shield-Fighting can actually be quite scary.

[Gwaednerth]

And there's also the jerk who deals no damage but uses all combat maneuvers all the time. Whips, nets, bolas, whole nine yards. If you do it right, it's infuriating.

[heavyfuel]

Thanks for the answers. Now, does Path of War change them? I know it's not Paizo, but people seem to love the splat.

[Extra Anchovies]

Okay, Path of War now.

Mounted Charging is far and away the strongest. It has damage comparable to initiators even without maneuvers, and AFAIK they haven't implemented any restrictions on using maneuvers with mounted charges yet. Once that goes through, it'll fall somewhere near THF power-wise.

Archery is still at the top too. The ranged disciplines give some crazy damage.

THF is very strong, but many of the THF-supporting abilities are getting nerfed IIRC.

TWF works just fine on classes without sneak attack. Hidden Blade Rogues, Steelfist Commando Warlords, Polymath Vivisectionist Alchemists, and Stalkers are the best at TWF.

Sword + Board works just fine. The Iron Tortoise discipline gives shield bashing lots of nice stuff.

One-handed with a free hand is actually competitive with THF now. Scarlet Throne Style gives you Power Attack damage as if you were using a two-handed weapon, and the Landsknecht prestige class gives 1.5*Str to damage with one-handed weapons at level 1. Both are worded such that they're only usable when you're only fighting with one weapon in one hand, so you can't THF, TWF, or shield bash with them.

Unarmed is perfectly viable on classes without TWF-supporting bonus damage, but that's because Broken Blade provides absurd amounts of damage (more than any other discipline IIRC), to the point that I think it needs to be nerfed a bit.

Firearms work fine. There's also a class template for Stalkers and Warlords that supports melee/ranged hybrid TWF.

[Dusk Eclipse]

From the PoW:E Systems and Use Document


Maneuvers and Mounted Combat - When a martial disciple initiates a martial maneuver (strike or boost) during a mounted charge attack, the initiation of the maneuver overrides the damage bonuses that are sometimes gained (such as from the feat Spirited Charge or while wielding a lance) while performing this action. The initiator inflicts damage as if it were a normal attack while mounted and then the strike and/or boost’s additional damage and effects apply to the target. If the strike includes a charge attack component, the initiator’s mount forgoes its action this round and performs a full round action to facilitate the movement portion of the strike and may move up to twice its base movement speed as if it were charging. Apply the effects of the strike to the initiator’s attack at the end of this charge as normal. Martial counters and stances are unaffected by being mounted, and may be applied or used as normal.

Other than that Extra Anchovies got it right, though I would add Dervish Defender and Harbinger to the non-SA good TWF (Harbingers can get Int to damage back at level 5 with a Thrashing Dragon stance)