Building an enchanter (3.5e)

[gilgil808]

Hi guys,

About a week ago I had the idea of building a mindbenderlike character, with the main purpose of messing with people's minds and make 'em do what you want, and of course be able to participate in combat.
I've looked at a few builds and the one I liked the most was wizard 3/master specialist 3/ mindbender 1/ master specialist +X, so thats what I made.
So far our characters are level 14 (this is a backup character, and a character I built for fun because I liked the the idea of messing with people like that), so accodring to the build I found I just finished the master specialist levels (10), I decided to give up evocation and necromancy for enchantment, and decided to be a gray elf (because it was recommended, and because elves FTW).

I already finished most of the things, but the latest thing I did was choosing spells, and I got a bit stuck (this is the first time I built a wizard).
Altho the main purpose is as mentioned messing with peoples mind, and being somewhat effective in combat, I still want to be able to survive fights, therefor I'm looking for defensive spells that can help me do that, and preferably spells that have long durations (like 24 hours) so I can cast once per day and be good, altho having like one defensive spell that I need to cast in combat is ok I guess.

The spells I chose so far (mostly not defensive spells):
Level 0: Detect magic.
Level 1: Charm person. (2/4 level 0&1 spells)
Level 2: Tasha's hideouse laughter, Entice gift, Torrent of tiers. (3/4)
Level 3: Suggestion, Hesitate. (2/5)
Level 4: Charm monster, Crushing despair. (2/4)
Level 5: Hold monster, Mind fog, Insidiouse suggestion. (3/5)
Level 6: Gease/Quest, Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Overwhelm, Freezing glance. (5/5)
Level 7: Final rebuke, Hiss of sleep. (2/4)

What do you think about the current spells? what spells (doesnt have to be only defensive, but I do want at least some defensive spells) should I add?

Another thing that I wasnt so sure about, and didn't finish yet is items. I was given 100k to start with, and I have a cap of 35k per item.
The items I've chosen so far:
-Headband of intellect +5 (25k).
-Veil of allure (14k).
-Robe of arcane might (21k).
-Lesser Quicken rod (35k).
That leaves me with 5k. I've been thinking about buying Cloak of resistance +2 (4k), but I'm not sure if it stacks with spell's bonuses, and perhaps theres a better use for this money, so I'd like to hear suggestions about that too.

Other things you might need to know:
-I did not roll stats yet.
-The feats I chose: Heighten spell, Spell focus (Enchantment), Spell penetration, Mindsight, Tattoo focus.
-Psionic things are not available.
-The alignment of the character is Chaotic Neutral.
-Most of the things we are fighting right now can see invisibility.

I will be happy to hear any comment about what I've done so far, and about what I can add.

P.S: I Would really prefer if you could write the name of the book on which the item/spell you're reffering to apears.

[Brova]

Honestly, if you want to be an enchanter, a Beguiler is a much stronger choice than a specialist Wizard. You get the good enchantment spells for free, and a much better chassis for an enchanter (diplomacy FTW!). Gnome for Shadowcraft Mage or just Rainbow Servant is good. Take arcane disciple to shore up weak points.

[Pluto!]

Beguiler is miles behind Enchanter. Gate is worth a smidge more than a few skill points.

But on that note, you'll want spells outside Enchantment. The Enchantment school has like 4 distinct effects total (mind control, Confusion, sleep, Ray of Stupidity). They're very strong effects, but all the dozens of spells in the school are all basically the same and run into the same semi-regular immunities (plants, undead, constructs, etc).

The spells that will kick ass defensively for an enchanter are the same that will kick ass defensively for a Conjurer - Greater Mirror Image, Celerity, Heart of Water, Greater Resistance, Greater Mage Armor, Overland Flight/Phantom Steed, Nerveskitter, Greater Blink, etc.

[gilgil808]

But on that note, you'll want spells outside Enchantment. The Enchantment school has like 4 distinct effects total (mind control, Confusion, sleep, Ray of Stupidity). They're very strong effects, but all the dozens of spells in the school are all basically the same and run into the same semi-regular immunities (plants, undead, constructs, etc).

That's exactly what I'm here for.


The spells that will kick ass defensively for an enchanter are the same that will kick ass defensively for a Conjurer - Greater Mirror Image, Celerity, Heart of Water, Greater Resistance, Greater Mage Armor, Overland Flight/Phantom Steed, Nerveskitter, Greater Blink, etc.

Thanks.
How many defensive spells would you recommend taking tho?

EDIT:I've gone over the spells you mentioned and I added:

Phantom steed
Greater blink
Greater mage armor
Greater resistance


After the addition what i have is:
Level 0: Detect magic.
Level 1: Charm person. (2/4 level 0&1 spells)
Level 2: Tasha's hideouse laughter, Entice gift, Torrent of tiers. (3/4)
Level 3: Suggestion, Hesitate, Phantom steed, Greater mage armor. (4/5)
Level 4: Charm monster, Crushing despair, Greater resistance. (3/4)
Level 5: Hold monster, Mind fog, Insidiouse suggestion, Greater blink. (4/5)
Level 6: Gease/Quest, Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Overwhelm, Freezing glance. (5/5)
Level 7: Final rebuke, Hiss of sleep. (2/4)

[Brova]

Beguiler is miles behind Enchanter. Gate is worth a smidge more than a few skill points.

Sigh.

First, if your actual goal is to be an enchanter, you don't care about getting access to gate. You want to cast enchantments on people and use them to win the game. And the Beguiler is better at that. Notably, he gets diplomacy as a class skill, which takes charm person from "pretty good" to "game breaker".

Second, gate is a 9th level spell. Even in a campaign that starts at 14th, that's three levels away for the Wizard. He's more likely to get there than most people, but in general you won't get 9ths in most games.

Third, gate is a broken spell. Both because it lets you abuse SLA wish and because of the Free Vacation: No Save trick. And the Beguiler isn't lacking for broken tricks. Getting charm person and diplomacy is the same deal as gate - a legion of minions - but from level 2 instead of level 17.

Fourth and finally, the Beguiler can in fact cast gate. As a Beguiler you will take either Rainbow Servant or Shadowcraft Mage. Both of those PrCs let you cast gate - Rainbow Servant because gate is a Cleric spell, Shadowcraft Mage because it is a Conjuration (creation) spell (arguably, Shadowcraft Mage only lets you use the planar travel version).


But on that note, you'll want spells outside Enchantment. The Enchantment school has like 4 distinct effects total (mind control, Confusion, sleep, Ray of Stupidity). They're very strong effects, but all the dozens of spells in the school are all basically the same and run into the same semi-regular immunities (plants, undead, constructs, etc).

You're underselling enchantment rather dramatically. Your plan as an enchanter isn't to cast a bunch of enchantment spells every combat, it's to use enchantment spells where applicable and use the minions accumulated from those uses to crush challenges that aren't effected by your enchantment. It's close to being the best school if your DM doesn't pull out counters every fight.

[Pluto!]

Gate is a synecdoche. Feel free to sub "Teleport," "Polymorph," "Celerity," "Assay Spell Resistance" or whatever other staple spell effect you want. The Wizard just does stronger things than the Beguiler, including Binding/Gating interesting things to beguile. And claiming that every Beguiler is a Shadowcraft Mage or a liberally-read level 10 Rainbow Servant is misleading - especially when you taut the benefits of specific class skills.

I don't want to jump on the Enchantment hate train. I typically enthusiastically defend Domination as one of the strongest things you can do with a spell slot. But let's also acknowledge the truth behind the complaints of the school - there are tons of monsters and spells that just ignore it, and the actual functional distinction between Charm, Suggestion, Geas and even Dominate is not all that big; the school just doesn't have a lot of different effects.

There's no reason to pitch a different class than the OP's trying to build, and even less reason when that class is both weaker in the original build's role and less flexible to expand beyond it.

[Brova]

Gate is a synecdoche. Feel free to sub "Teleport," "Polymorph," "Celerity," "Assay Spell Resistance" or whatever other staple spell effect you want.

teleport is in the Travel domain, obtainable with a feat, the use of substitute domain, or a scroll and abuse magic device. It's also a downtime spell which can be emulated by other utility spells the Beguiler already wants.

polymorph is not a spell you should ever cast. That's not to say it isn't powerful, but it's stupidly broken and has been errata'd so many times that it will be some combination of houseruled, spot-banned, or ruled to some incomprehensible effect. And if you actually want it, you can always use the Spell domain for greater anyspell (though how that interacts with spontaneous casting is anyone's guess).

celerity is very good, and not an easy spell to get for a Beguiler. Prestige Bard works though, for what that's worth. Also greater anyspell. Not as vital as it can be for an enchanter - you should have lots of minions worth of action economy already.

assay spell resistance is a Cleric spell, as well as eligible for greater anyspell. Also less valuable for an enchanter as you can expect a bunch of minions who don't trip spell resistance at all with their attacks.


The Wizard just does stronger things than the Beguiler, including Binding/Gating interesting things to beguile.

Even if the Wizard "does stronger things", the Beguiler is a better enchanter, and the poster wants to make an enchanter.


And claiming that every Beguiler is a Shadowcraft Mage or a liberally-read level 10 Rainbow Servant is misleading - especially when you taut the benefits of specific class skills.

Uh, what? First, every Beguiler takes one of those two classes, because they are insane and have incredible synergy with Beguiler. It's like natural spell for Druids. Second, abuse magic device and diplomacy seriously need a +10 bonus each (to hit "friendly to helpful" for diplomacy and "activate a wand" for abuse magic device"). That's very much doable with just the five or six levels of Beguiler you actually plan to take.


But let's also acknowledge the truth behind the complaints of the school - there are tons of monsters and spells that just ignore it, and the actual functional distinction between Charm, Suggestion, Geas and even Dominate is not all that big; the school just doesn't have a lot of different effects.

Those complaints are hogwash. Second things first, it doesn't matter how many effects you have when one of those effects is "fail a save, join the party". That effect is game breaking in a way that even planar binding (for minions, not wishes) isn't because it both wins a combat and generates a minion. First things second, the percentage of immune monsters is pretty low and very few monsters actually carry mindblank or protection from good. If you get even one encounter every level that's vulnerable, you end up doubling your combat effectiveness. And most of the time you'll have more than one encounter you can charm.


There's no reason to pitch a different class than the OP's trying to build, and even less reason when that class is both weaker in the original build's role and less flexible to expand beyond it.

You make a good point, except those things are the opposite of true. The Beguiler is both better as an enchanter (hello, diplomacy) and more able to expand beyond being an enchanter (thanks, every Cleric spell). The Beguiler is flat better at this niche than the Wizard is.

[gilgil808]

Honestly, if you want to be an enchanter, a Beguiler is a much stronger choice than a specialist Wizard. You get the good enchantment spells for free, and a much better chassis for an enchanter (diplomacy FTW!). Gnome for Shadowcraft Mage or just Rainbow Servant is good. Take arcane disciple to shore up weak points.

I looked at Beguiler before posting this thread, with all of its benifits i still prefer staying with the master specialist build because of it being simpler, so any suggestions other than changing that would be great.
Thanks anyway :smile:

[Brova]

I looked at Beguiler before posting this thread, with all of its benifits i still prefer staying with the master specialist build because of it being simpler, so any suggestions other than changing that would be great.
Thanks anyway :smile:

If you're sold on the Wizard, you'll want to figure out a way to get diplomacy as a class skill (I think there might be a UA variant for that?). The killer app for enchantment is to cast charm person or charm monster on something, roll a DC 20 diplomacy check to set its attitude to helpful, and then have it follow you around as an ally. In most combats you'll want some combination of ray of stupidity, buffs for your charmed minions, and attempts to charm more enemies. I might try to fit Incantatrix and/or War Weaver in to help with the buffing angle.

A well played enchanter should snowball very quickly into an army of charmed minions.

[gilgil808]

Current spell list:
Level 0: Detect magic.
Level 1: Charm person. (2/4 level 0&1 spells)
Level 2: Tasha's hideouse laughter, Entice gift, Torrent of tiers, Ray of stupidity. (4/4)
Level 3: Suggestion, Hesitate, Phantom steed, Greater mage armor. (4/5)
Level 4: Charm monster, Crushing despair, Greater resistance, Assay spell resistance. (4/4)
Level 5: Hold monster, Mind fog, Insidiouse suggestion, Greater blink, Teleport. (5/5)
Level 6: Gease/Quest, Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Overwhelm, Freezing glance. (5/5)
Level 7: Final rebuke, Hiss of sleep. (2/4)

[gilgil808]

If you're sold on the Wizard, you'll want to figure out a way to get diplomacy as a class skill (I think there might be a UA variant for that?). The killer app for enchantment is to cast charm person or charm monster on something, roll a DC 20 diplomacy check to set its attitude to helpful, and then have it follow you around as an ally. In most combats you'll want some combination of ray of stupidity, buffs for your charmed minions, and attempts to charm more enemies. I might try to fit Incantatrix and/or War Weaver in to help with the buffing angle.

A well played enchanter should snowball very quickly into an army of charmed minions.

There is the Enchanter Variant for wizard which gives you Social Proficiency (Ex) which is: Enchanters using this variant are as proficient at manipulating others through mundane means as they are at influencing their minds magically. Add the following skills to the character's list of wizard class skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. The enchanter also gains a +2 competence bonus on checks involving one of these skills (player's choice) every five levels (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th). This bonus can only be applied once to each skill.

But im not sure on which level you get it.

[Brova]

There is the Enchanter Variant for wizard which gives you Social Proficiency (Ex) which is: Enchanters using this variant are as proficient at manipulating others through mundane means as they are at influencing their minds magically. Add the following skills to the character's list of wizard class skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. The enchanter also gains a +2 competence bonus on checks involving one of these skills (player's choice) every five levels (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th). This bonus can only be applied once to each skill.

But im not sure on which level you get it.

That looks like it replaces bonus feats. You can take it at first level, and you won't get scribe scroll. You also won't get later bonus feats, but you don't care because you're taking Master Specialist.

[gilgil808]

That looks like it replaces bonus feats. You can take it at first level, and you won't get scribe scroll. You also won't get later bonus feats, but you don't care because you're taking Master Specialist.

The full thing taked from d20srd.org is:

Cohort
Upon reaching 6th level, an enchanter using this variant gains the service of a loyal cohort of the player's choice (with the game master's approval). The cohort is a 4th-level character when first gained; after that point, follow the normal rules described in the Leadership feat to determine the cohort's level, but treat the enchanter's level as being two lower than normal.

The enchanter doesn't gain any followers from this ability. If the enchanter selects the Leadership feat, he attracts followers as normal, the penalty to the enchanter's effective level is eliminated, and the enchanter automatically qualifies for the "special power" modifier to his Leadership score.

An enchanter using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

Social Proficiency (Ex)
Enchanters using this variant are as proficient at manipulating others through mundane means as they are at influencing their minds magically. Add the following skills to the character's list of wizard class skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. The enchanter also gains a +2 competence bonus on checks involving one of these skills (player's choice) every five levels (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th). This bonus can only be applied once to each skill.

An enchanter using this variant does not gain bonus feats for advancing as a wizard.

Extended Enchantment (Su)
Enchanters using this variant ensnare the minds of others more easily with their magic, and as a result their enchantment spells last longer than those cast by other spellcasters. Once per day, plus one additional time per two class levels gained above 1st, an enchanter using this variant can cast a spell from the enchantment school as if it were enhanced by the Extend Spell metamagic feat. This enhancement does not affect the spell's level.

This ability cannot be used to extend a spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent.

An enchanter using this variant does not gain additional spells per day for being a specialist wizard.


In that case i lose the familiar, and get no cohort for it in return, and lose the bonus feats and the bonus spells per day for specialist wizard.
Question is: is it worth it?

[Brova]

In that case i lose the familiar, and get no cohort for it in return, and lose the bonus feats and the bonus spells per day for specialist wizard.
Question is: is it worth it?

Those are separate ACFs, you can take whichever ones seem good to you. In this case, the one where you get diplomacy as a class skill.

[gilgil808]

Those are separate ACFs, you can take whichever ones seem good to you. In this case, the one where you get diplomacy as a class skill.

I see, so basicly everything stays the same except having social proficiency instead of scribe scroll.
In that case I will take it.

[Brova]

One other thing I would try to do is get glibness somehow. It's a pretty sweet spell, with two uses. First, it lets you spin a story that will (ideally) make your charmed and diplomacy'd minions less likely to turn on you (for example: "no, that guy you used to work for was the one mind controlling you. I set you free."). Second, it is almost impossible for people to tell you're lying, which has all kinds of uses.

[gilgil808]

One other thing I would try to do is get glibness somehow. It's a pretty sweet spell, with two uses. First, it lets you spin a story that will (ideally) make your charmed and diplomacy'd minions less likely to turn on you (for example: "no, that guy you used to work for was the one mind controlling you. I set you free."). Second, it is almost impossible for people to tell you're lying, which has all kinds of uses.

Well thats a problem for now, but maybe in the further levels it may be posible.

[gilgil808]

Telepathy doesn't let me talk to people if I don't know thier language right? Because if so I think taking tongues can be useful.

[Brova]

Telepathy doesn't let me talk to people if I don't know thier language right? Because if so I think taking tongues can be useful.

Don't know off the top of my head. I think not, but I remember something about telepathy working on "any creature with a language". That might have been a specific case for some outsiders. In any case tongues is a 3rd level spell, which you can walk around with essentially all day (just under two and a half hours at level 14). You also want phantom steed, which actually lasts long enough that you can cast it, rest for eight hours, then prepare spells gain without it wearing off.

[gilgil808]

Don't know off the top of my head. I think not, but I remember something about telepathy working on "any creature with a language". That might have been a specific case for some outsiders. In any case tongues is a 3rd level spell, which you can walk around with essentially all day (just under two and a half hours at level 14). You also want phantom steed, which actually lasts long enough that you can cast it, rest for eight hours, then prepare spells gain without it wearing off.

I actually already took Phantom steed as mentioned here:

Current spell list:
Level 0: Detect magic.
Level 1: Charm person. (2/4 level 0&1 spells)
Level 2: Tasha's hideouse laughter, Entice gift, Torrent of tiers, Ray of stupidity. (4/4)
Level 3: Suggestion, Hesitate, Phantom steed, Greater mage armor. (4/5)
Level 4: Charm monster, Crushing despair, Greater resistance, Assay spell resistance. (4/4)
Level 5: Hold monster, Mind fog, Insidiouse suggestion, Greater blink, Teleport. (5/5)
Level 6: Gease/Quest, Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Overwhelm, Freezing glance. (5/5)
Level 7: Final rebuke, Hiss of sleep. (2/4)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I honestly don't see the point in using Master Specialist for this type of character. Its unique abilities for an enchanter aren't even unique; targets of your social enchantment spells don't get their normal bonuses in combat situations (when you should be using combat spells anyway); you basically gain Slippery Mind (but don't need it if you have Mind Blank or any number of other effects); and 2/day you can force an opponent to reroll a successful save, but with a +5 to the reroll almost guaranteeing that they still make the save. None of that is really useful, and definitely not worth an investment of ten levels.

I would strongly recommend that you instead make an enchanter who also uses fear effects, if you want a character that messes with opponents' heads. For example the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) has a build named Adan which makes superb use of fear effects in addition to being a very capable enchanter and a primary Wizard (18/20 with prestige classes). That build shows nine levels of Wizard, but you should of course start taking your prestige classes as early as possible, and you can replace four Wizard levels with low-prerequisite filler like Paragnostic Apostle or Divine Oracle (gaining its feat prerequisite via the Frog God's Fane in CS).

[Emperor Tippy]

Hypnotism should be on your list of spells. Combine with Charm for a poor mans Mind Rape.

Besides that, you need to understand that an Enchanter does not enchant in combat. You defeat foes in open combat by throwing your disposable minions at them or by using non enchantment spells.

For example, one of the best feats that an Enchanter can grab is Nonlethal Substitution. Grab it for Fire and an Orb of Fire. Wait for combat to get your enemy relatively close to death and then whack them with the nonlethal spell to drop them unconscious. After combat you turn them into your disposable thrall.

The next thing that you have to understand is that you are an enchanter. You are the spider in the center of a web, the mastermind. The combat thralls that you create are nice enough but just as important (if not more important) are the ones that you create out of civilians to build your information and influence networks. Itinerant traders, bartenders, farmers, bards, mercenaries, random goblins, maids; anyone and everyone.

Skills that help you include Diplomacy, Bluff, Forgery, and Sense Motive.

Also remember that you want to have lots of thralls and that you really want them from as many different types and with as many different abilities as you can get. Invisible Stalkers are a great choice, a proper Enchanter should have an entire legion of them on hand as personal guards and scouts. Giant Eagles are also nice, as are awakened animals of all types. Blink Dogs are also nice.

Once you get 6th level spells you are going to want to pick up Smokey Confinement from Complete Mage so that you can more easily transport your whole legion around with you.

[Endarire]

What about going Psion (Telepath)/Thrallherd?

[gilgil808]

What about going Psion (Telepath)/Thrallherd?

As mentioned before:


Other things you might need to know:
-I did not roll stats yet.
-The feats I chose: Heighten spell, Spell focus (Enchantment), Spell penetration, Mindsight, Tattoo focus.
-Psionic things are not available.
-The alignment of the character is Chaotic Neutral.
-Most of the things we are fighting right now can see invisibility.

[gilgil808]

I honestly don't see the point in using Master Specialist for this type of character.

As mentioned before, one of the reasons I chose this class is because of it being simple. I don't wnat to make something too complicated the first time I build a spellcaster.
Another reason is my DM. He tends to nerf a lot of classes, abilities, spells and so on, so I chose to go with a class he won't nerf.



Hypnotism should be on your list of spells. Combine with Charm for a poor mans Mind Rape.

Added.


Skills that help you include Diplomacy, Bluff, Forgery, and Sense Motive.

I have Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense motive as CS thanks to a wizard variant, also I've got maxed Bluff and Diplomacy.


Once you get 6th level spells you are going to want to pick up Smokey Confinement from Complete Mage so that you can more easily transport your whole legion around with you.

I already have 5/5 level 6 spells I can learn, so it will require either changing one of the existing ones, or giving up on a 7th level spell. What would you recommend?

[Brova]

I already have 5/5 level 6 spells I can learn, so it will require either changing one of the existing ones, or giving up on a 7th level spell. What would you recommend?

I would drop overwhelm from your 6th level options. It looks good at first, but it's a will negates spell and the only will negates spell you want as an enchanter is charm monster.

One thing that's worth considering, though somewhat lower optimization, is a dip into Prestige Bard. It costs you a level of spellcasting, but you get a bunch of spells at lower levels. Not sure it's a good deal as a Wizard though. You still have to learn all the spells, and there's a lot of hedging for your DM to deny you access.

[Elkad]

A well played enchanter should snowball very quickly into an army of charmed minions.

Only if you are evil. Charm is far worse than animating the dead, channeling negative energy, consorting with willing demons, or generally murderhobo'ing around.

[Brova]

Only if you are evil. Charm is far worse than animating the dead, channeling negative energy, consorting with willing demons, or generally murderhobo'ing around.

Uh, by what standard? The cycle of charm -> diplomacy -> permanently helpful is, ethically speaking, the same as making friends with people. From a game rules perspective, there's no indication charm is evil. From an applied alignment perspective, you are convincing evil to fight evil - putting you on the same ethical ground as a Malconvoker.

[gilgil808]

Current spell list:
Level 0: Detect magic.
Level 1: Charm person, Hypnotism. (3/4 level 0&1 spells)
Level 2: Tasha's hideouse laughter, Entice gift, Torrent of tiers, Ray of stupidity. (4/4)
Level 3: Suggestion, Hesitate, Phantom steed, Greater mage armor, Miser's envy. (5/5)
Level 4: Charm monster, Crushing despair, Greater resistance, Assay spell resistance. (4/4)
Level 5: Hold monster, Mind fog, Insidiouse suggestion, Greater blink, Teleport. (5/5)
Level 6: Gease/Quest, Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Overwhelm Smoky confinement, Freezing glance. (5/5)
Level 7: Final rebuke, Hiss of sleep. (2/4)

[Lerondiel]

Level 5: Incite Riot from PHB2 - it's how Enchanters chuckle at Fireball....put Extend on that and you're really having fun :)

[gilgil808]

Should I take Nybor's Stern Reproof?

Also, what about the items?

EDIT: I've checked with my DM, he said the telepathy ability does not let me understand the language, just partially communicate. In that case I think Tounges is a must spell.
I can't give up on Phantom steed, niether on Suggestion or Greater mage armor. That leaves me with either Hesitate or Miser's envy.
I think Miser's envy is a more useful spell because it acomplishes "don't attack me" (as Hesitate does), but it adds to it the "attack your friend whos holding X".
Do you think giving up Hesitate will be the right choice?

[Ellowryn]

Honestly drop the Greater Mage Armor. Normal Mage Armor will get you buy in a pinch, but to be honest you should be running around with Mithril +X Twilight Chain Mail and a Mithril +X Buckler to take care of your AC issues. Plus you have to spend 100g every time you use the spell, and you have better things to use a 100gp a day on.

If you are good you can also prepare (you dont have to learn it, as every good character technically knows all sanctified spells) Greater Luminous Armor (Book of Exalted Deeds) which is effectivly Full-Plate without the reduction is speed or arcane spell failure chance.

[Elkad]

Uh, by what standard? The cycle of charm -> diplomacy -> permanently helpful is, ethically speaking, the same as making friends with people. From a game rules perspective, there's no indication charm is evil. From an applied alignment perspective, you are convincing evil to fight evil - putting you on the same ethical ground as a Malconvoker.

Charming the barmaid to come up to your room is equivalent to slipping a roofie into her drink.

Anything that turns a creature completely against it's own nature (which would give another save in some instances) is worse than slavery. Even a slave can choose to disobey (it may cost him his life, but the option is still there).

Even using charm to make the evil guy fight the other evil guy is questionable. It rates up there with all those Paladin conundrums like killing baby orcs before they grow up, or playing judge-jury-executioner for captives.

[gilgil808]

Honestly drop the Greater Mage Armor. Normal Mage Armor will get you buy in a pinch, but to be honest you should be running around with Mithril +X Twilight Chain Mail and a Mithril +X Buckler to take care of your AC issues. Plus you have to spend 100g every time you use the spell, and you have better things to use a 100gp a day on.

I don't understand why I need to spend 100g every time I cast the spell. I've read the spell again and it doesn't say anything about it.
http://i.gyazo.com/832b255d21d386a6efc899abaa7d05f0.png
Niether in Mage armor:
http://i.gyazo.com/6bedd45a93c5edecbf850e3c65a31039.png

Another problem is I have only 5k more to spend, and I really doubt I can get those for this little amount. so I can take mithril twilight chain shirt, and a mithril buckler +1. That will give me 6 AC, which is exactly the same as Greater mage armor.


If you are good you can also prepare (you dont have to learn it, as every good character technically knows all sanctified spells) Greater Luminous Armor (Book of Exalted Deeds) which is effectivly Full-Plate without the reduction is speed or arcane spell failure chance.

I assume youre talking about the alignment, in that case as mentioned before I'm Chaotic Neutral. Also I don't seem to be able to cast this spell.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't understand why I need to spend 100g every time I cast the spell. I've read the spell again and it doesn't say anything about it.

The original printing of Greater Mage Armor in Unapproachable East: Material Component: A tiny platinum shield worth at least 100 gp.

The next printing of Greater Mage Armor in Complete Arcane: Material Component: A tiny platinum shield worth 25 gp.

The most current printing of Greater Mage Armor is in Spell Compendium, and has no material components at all, because that's just silly.

[Brova]

Honestly drop the Greater Mage Armor. Normal Mage Armor will get you buy in a pinch, but to be honest you should be running around with Mithril +X Twilight Chain Mail and a Mithril +X Buckler to take care of your AC issues. Plus you have to spend 100g every time you use the spell, and you have better things to use a 100gp a day on.

If you are good you can also prepare (you dont have to learn it, as every good character technically knows all sanctified spells) Greater Luminous Armor (Book of Exalted Deeds) which is effectivly Full-Plate without the reduction is speed or arcane spell failure chance.

Honestly, I'm not convinced you need to invest all that much in AC. You should have mirror image (ideally both Greater and Persisted), various miss chances, and invisibility (again, preferably of the Greater variety). I'm just not really sure that the 15ish points of AC the armor gets you is all that good, especially at level 14.


Charming the barmaid to come up to your room is equivalent to slipping a roofie into her drink.

Anything that turns a creature completely against it's own nature (which would give another save in some instances) is worse than slavery. Even a slave can choose to disobey (it may cost him his life, but the option is still there).

Even using charm to make the evil guy fight the other evil guy is questionable. It rates up there with all those Paladin conundrums like killing baby orcs before they grow up, or playing judge-jury-executioner for captives.

There's no persistent mental control. You charm someone, talk to him, and then he is your friend. If that's evil, diplomacy is evil.

[gilgil808]

Honestly, I'm not convinced you need to invest all that much in AC. You should have mirror image (ideally both Greater and Persisted), various miss chances, and invisibility (again, preferably of the Greater variety). I'm just not really sure that the 15ish points of AC the armor gets you is all that good, especially at level 14.


Here come the problems with my DM...
My DM doesn't allow Greater mirror image. :frown:
The problem with invisibility is that we do have another spellcaster, and untill now a really high percent of the enemies we fought could see him even with Greater invisibility.

[Ellowryn]

Huh, every time i looked up the spell before i always saw it with the 100gp price tag. But yeah in the SpC it doesn't cost anything. Better, but the Mithril Armor is still better.

You can also toss Gleaming armor enchantment property on your armor (its a +3 so it may be too expensive right now but it is something to work for) so you have a continuous 20% miss chance unless they have true seeing (which it sounds like many of them do, but it should be helpful against mooks).

And yes i forgot that you are chaotic neutral, oh well.

[gilgil808]

Mithril Armor is still better.

I will consider that.

EDIT: The armor's and spell's bonuses don't stack right?

[Elkad]

There's no persistent mental control. You charm someone, talk to him, and then he is your friend. If that's evil, diplomacy is evil.

Wait. You are saying if I charm an orc from hostile to friendly, and then use diplomacy to get him to helpful (or fanatical I guess), once the spell drops his attitude is unchanged? That's a hell of a stretch.

Once the spell is gone, he is going back to his original attitude. MAYBE modified by your followup diplomacy check (so the charm bought you time to move him from hostile to indifferent at best), if he doesn't remember you charmed him. If he remembers you manipulated him, he will probably move down the scale. Down from hostile may not be a concern, but down from unfriendly is.

That salesman that pulled a fast one on you? He seemed nice till you got home and realized he suckered you. Now you not only would never buy from him again, you tell all your friends what a crook he is. And waiting for him in a dark alley might be something you'd consider.

[Ellowryn]

I will consider that.

EDIT: The armor's and spell's bonuses don't stack right?

Correct, most bonuses of the same type do not stack unless they state otherwise. Armor bonuses do not stack with other armor bonuses.

[Brova]

Wait. You are saying if I charm an orc from hostile to friendly, and then use diplomacy to get him to helpful (or fanatical I guess), once the spell drops his attitude is unchanged? That's a hell of a stretch.

That's not a stretch, that's how the rules of the game work. charm sets people to friendly, a DC 20 diplomacy check sets them to helpful. The end. That is the entirety of the interaction between charm person and the diplomacy skill. Is it good? Yes. Is it busted? Maybe. But it is not "a hell of a stretch" by any standard.

[gilgil808]

That's not a stretch, that's how the rules of the game work. charm sets people to friendly, a DC 20 diplomacy check sets them to helpful. The end. That is the entirety of the interaction between charm person and the diplomacy skill. Is it good? Yes. Is it busted? Maybe. But it is not "a hell of a stretch" by any standard.

Are you sure the target remains friendly? because it doesnt say so in the spell.

[Brova]

Are you sure the target remains friendly? because it doesnt say so in the spell.

That doesn't matter. You set their attitude to helpful with your diplomacy check. It doesn't matter if they might later stop being friendly, because they already stopped being friendly when they became helpful. Some people make the argument that it charm person suppresses rather than replaces the existing attitude (i.e. they're still hostile, just treated as friendly). Ultimately that just means that they stay friendly for the duration of the spell then become helpful.

[Elkad]

That doesn't matter. You set their attitude to helpful with your diplomacy check. It doesn't matter if they might later stop being friendly, because they already stopped being friendly when they became helpful. Some people make the argument that it charm person suppresses rather than replaces the existing attitude (i.e. they're still hostile, just treated as friendly). Ultimately that just means that they stay friendly for the duration of the spell then become helpful.

You are still supposing that he doesn't remember at least. Finding out you have been controlled is likely to move you quite a few steps towards hostile. Maybe a Fanatic might say "well he did it for my own good", but nobody else would.


In your second option (suppressed attitude), you'd be making your diplo check vs the underlying Hostile, not the magical Friendly. So when the charm dropped, you'd probably find yourself in "indifferent" territory. I'd object to that ruling, but I could live with it. The charm would be just buying you time to make the diplo check in that case.

[Brova]

You are still supposing that he doesn't remember at least. Finding out you have been controlled is likely to move you quite a few steps towards hostile. Maybe a Fanatic might say "well he did it for my own good", but nobody else would.

I mean, yes, if someone came out and told him that you were an enchanter who controlled him, you might have a problem. But that's what bluff checks are for. Or not treating allies like crap.


In your second option (suppressed attitude), you'd be making your diplo check vs the underlying Hostile, not the magical Friendly. So when the charm dropped, you'd probably find yourself in "indifferent" territory. I'd object to that ruling, but I could live with it. The charm would be just buying you time to make the diplo check in that case.

No, that's not what "treated as" means. To be "treated as" friendly would include diplomacy. So a DC 20 diplomacy check would successfully change the attitude from Friendly (actually Hostile) to Friendly (actually Helpful).

[Extra Anchovies]

Honestly drop the Greater Mage Armor. Normal Mage Armor will get you buy in a pinch, but to be honest you should be running around with Mithril +X Twilight Chain Mail and a Mithril +X Buckler to take care of your AC issues. Plus you have to spend 100g every time you use the spell, and you have better things to use a 100gp a day on.

Twilight is a trap as far as chain shirts are concerned. Mithril Feycraft (DMG2) Chain Shirt with a Thistledown Suit (Races of the Wild) is 0% ASF 0 ACP without any enchantments.

[Troacctid]

No, that's not what "treated as" means. To be "treated as" friendly would include diplomacy. So a DC 20 diplomacy check would successfully change the attitude from Friendly (actually Hostile) to Friendly (actually Helpful).

That's not a thing that the rules say, and it isn't an especially sound logical leap either.

[Brova]

That's not a thing that the rules say, and it isn't an especially sound logical leap either.

charm person literally says:


treat the target’s attitude as friendly

The actual definition of treat says:


behave toward or deal with in a certain way.

The diplomacy rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) say that the DC to make a friendly person helpful is 20.

You're going to have to explain how you reconcile those things in a way that avoids you being wrong, because I'm not really seeing it.

[Elkad]

I mean, yes, if someone came out and told him that you were an enchanter who controlled him, you might have a problem. But that's what bluff checks are for. Or not treating allies like crap.



No, that's not what "treated as" means. To be "treated as" friendly would include diplomacy. So a DC 20 diplomacy check would successfully change the attitude from Friendly (actually Hostile) to Friendly (actually Helpful).

Still doesn't work. If you are modifying the charm with your diplo roll and the underlying condition remains, then when the charm dropped, it would pull the rug out from under your diplomacy as well. All the way back to hostile again.

[Brova]

Still doesn't work. If you are modifying the charm with your diplo roll and the underlying condition remains, then when the charm dropped, it would pull the rug out from under your diplomacy as well. All the way back to hostile again.

No.

Or rather, point to the rules that say that. While charm person does only set the attitude for a duration, it doesn't state that they revert. If their attitude has been changed again by some other effect, it stays changed. It's a bit of a moot point anyway as charm monster is days/level.

[Troacctid]

charm person literally says:



The actual definition of treat says:



The diplomacy rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) say that the DC to make a friendly person helpful is 20.

You're going to have to explain how you reconcile those things in a way that avoids you being wrong, because I'm not really seeing it.

You're making leaps of logic that the rules don't support. You're assuming that you can influence the attitude of a charmed creature—the rules don't say that's possible, and in fact they strongly suggest it is not. You're assuming the creature's attitude will remain changed when the spell wears off—the rules certainly don't say that. And you're assuming that after making them helpful once, they'll remain helpful indefinitely no matter how much you impose on them—the rules don't say that either.

[Brova]

You're making leaps of logic that the rules don't support. You're assuming that you can influence the attitude of a charmed creature—the rules don't say that's possible, and in fact they strongly suggest it is not.

There's no specific ruling for charmed creatures to override the general ruling that you can use diplomacy on creatures. In fact, saying that creatures are treated as friendly is an argument that you can diplomacy them. If it didn't state an attitude, you could assume it was a mental override rather than an adjunct to the diplomacy system.


You're assuming the creature's attitude will remain changed when the spell wears off—the rules certainly don't say that.

charm person has an effect (setting an attitude to friendly) and a duration (1 hour/level). It subjects people to the effect for the duration. After one hour per caster level, it stops setting people's attitudes to friendly. It does not say anywhere that it sets them back to what they were, or that it sets them to something else.


And you're assuming that after making them helpful once, they'll remain helpful indefinitely no matter how much you impose on them—the rules don't say that either.

The rules are silent on any mechanism for influencing attitudes other than the diplomacy skill and a few spells. It may be reasonable for helpful to "fall off" under certain circumstances, but there is not support for that happening.

Look, if you want to argue that doing this (especially to an extreme) is broken, I totally agree. But there is zero indication that it is anything other than possible.

[gilgil808]

Twilight is a trap as far as chain shirts are concerned. Mithril Feycraft (DMG2) Chain Shirt with a Thistledown Suit (Races of the Wild) is 0% ASF 0 ACP without any enchantments.

I looked at it and I didnt quite get how it worked, how much it will cost and what will be the bonuses.
Can you please explain it to me?

[Optimator]

The Domain Wizard variant in UA is particularly nice for Enchanters.

One thing I like a lot for my enchanters is the Arcane Mastery feat along with boosting CL and dispel checks. Sure, it's a toll you have to pay dispelling any Mindblanks or Protection From X but you're still a wizard. Small price.

Loading up on things like Fear stacking, Ray of Sickness, Enervate, etc go a long way helping your enchantments land.

Also, using your WBL to buy scrolls that you have already transferred into your spellbook would be very useful. A true wizard doesn't just have the two spells/level that they get for free.

[gilgil808]

The Domain Wizard variant in UA is particularly nice for Enchanters.

I hightly doubt this is something my DM will approve.


One thing I like a lot for my enchanters is the Arcane Mastery feat along with boosting CL and dispel checks. Sure, it's a toll you have to pay dispelling any Mindblanks or Protection From X but you're still a wizard. Small price.

I actually thought about taking this feat, but I decided not to.


Loading up on things like Fear stacking, Ray of Sickness, Enervate, etc go a long way helping your enchantments land.

You gave examples of Necromancy spells and I kinda banned Necromancy, but I get the idea of it.


Also, using your WBL to buy scrolls that you have already transferred into your spellbook would be very useful. A true wizard doesn't just have the two spells/level that they get for free.

Problem is my DM gives us hard time explaining how we got things he doesn't like we got before we joined the campaign. We have a caster who wants to use polymorph, and become certain creatures, but my DM wants him to explain how he knows this creature, and altho he gave a raesonable answer he did not approve. He asked him to roll a d% (not in his favour) to see if he can morph to it, and now he regrets learning this spell because he made it a bit useless. :smallfrown:

[gilgil808]

Final spell list:
Level 0: Detect magic.
Level 1: Charm person, Hypnotism, Feather fall. (4/4 level 0&1 spells)
Level 2: Tasha's hideouse laughter, Entice gift, Torrent of tiers, Ray of stupidity. (4/4)
Level 3: Suggestion, Hesitate, Phantom steed, Tongues, Miser's envy. (5/5)
Level 4: Charm monster, Crushing despair, Greater resistance, Assay spell resistance. (4/4)
Level 5: Hold monster, Mind fog, Insidiouse suggestion, Greater blink, Teleport. (5/5)
Level 6: Gease/Quest, Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Smoky confinement, Freezing glance, Greater dispel magic. (6/5) -1750gp
Level 7: Final rebuke, Hiss of sleep, Plane shift (lore reasons), Nybor's Stern Reproof. (4/4)

[marphod]

Final spell list:
Level 0: Detect magic.
Level 1: Charm person, Hypnotism, Feather fall. (4/4 level 0&1 spells)

Wait. Something everyone has seemed to miss:


A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice.

Every 0th level spell may be a bit unrealistic, given the sizes of spellbooks and the number of 0th level spells out there, but you have WAY more than just detect magic.

Also, you should have at least 8 1st level spells; Your base 3, +3 for an 16 int, and 2 more at 2nd level. if you started with an int higher than 16, thats even more.

[gilgil808]

Wait. Something everyone has seemed to miss:



Every 0th level spell may be a bit unrealistic, given the sizes of spellbooks and the number of 0th level spells out there, but you have WAY more than just detect magic.

Also, you should have at least 8 1st level spells; Your base 3, +3 for an 16 int, and 2 more at 2nd level. if you started with an int higher than 16, thats even more.

Yep I've missed that.
Thanks :smile:

[Optimator]

Problem is my DM gives us hard time explaining how we got things he doesn't like we got before we joined the campaign. We have a caster who wants to use polymorph, and become certain creatures, but my DM wants him to explain how he knows this creature, and altho he gave a raesonable answer he did not approve. He asked him to roll a d% (not in his favour) to see if he can morph to it, and now he regrets learning this spell because he made it a bit useless. :smallfrown:

That sucks a fat one. How on earth would a wizard, who ostensibly has been on dozens of adventures and reached level 13+, never find a single scroll or visit a wizard's college or meet a friendly wizard in which to a borrow a spellbook? THAT doesn't make sense. I know we all have to game with the group we have, but is your DM relatively inexperienced? This sort of fiat-denial style is generally considered sub-optimal roleplaying.

[gilgil808]

That sucks a fat one. How on earth would a wizard, who ostensibly has been on dozens of adventures and reached level 13+, never find a single scroll or visit a wizard's college or meet a friendly wizard in which to a borrow a spellbook? THAT doesn't make sense. I know we all have to game with the group we have, but is your DM relatively inexperienced? This sort of fiat-denial style is generally considered sub-optimal roleplaying.

Actually this is his main job, and he had been doing it for years now. I guess that because this was sort of our first time he did not allow too complicated things like psionics because he knew we couldn't handle fighting psionic enemies. There are though things he considers OP which he doesn't allow our things be nerfs and that's I guess because he thinks this will break the game and only one or few people will able to so things and the other don't. I'm not sure if he will say no to finding a friendly wizard on the way, I'm about to ask him, we have a session ina few minutes.