Wizards vs. Sorcerer Spell List

[Dralnu]

Yet another "Dralnu gripes about sorcerers" thread!

So it's pretty obvious that the Sorcerer's spell list is shorter than the Wizard's. But it surprised me how much of a smaller selection of spells it really is.

Counting EE, the Sorcerer has 160 spells available to choose from. The Wizard has 252. That's a 92 spell difference, 63%.

What's up with that?

[MrStabby]

Well the obvious answer is that for every spell on the list the sorcerer has a quickened version, and a subtle version and for many a twinned, an empowered and an extended version... Add all of these variants on and the numbers swing in the sorcerer's favour.

In short, you can evaluate a class by its list of spells alone.

[Yorrin]

The entire schitck of Wizards in 5e is having more spells rather than anyone else. I haven't counted, but I'd imagine Sorcerer is closer to in-line with other full casters (Bard, Cleric, Druid, etc)

[MrStabby]

I think Sorc is less than cleric by a little and I think more than the Warlock, Paladin and Ranger (although this is because they have no 6+ spells).

There are domain additions as well though (which a Favoured Soul could take as well)

[Dralnu]

The entire schitck of Wizards in 5e is having more spells rather than anyone else. I haven't counted, but I'd imagine Sorcerer is closer to in-line with other full casters (Bard, Cleric, Druid, etc)

That's something I didn't consider. Let's see:

Bard (Lore): 133
Cleric (not counting domains): 106 (up to 116)
Druid (not counting Land): 142 (up to 152)

Note that Clerics got no new spells from EE unlike the other classes.

So actually you appear to be correct. It's more that Wizards have a ridiculous amount of spells available/known rather than Sorcerer having too few.

EDIT: Fixed up the numbers. Only comparing pure spellcasters.


Well the obvious answer is that for every spell on the list the sorcerer has a quickened version, and a subtle version and for many a twinned, an empowered and an extended version... Add all of these variants on and the numbers swing in the sorcerer's favour.

I don't agree with this at all.

But that's fine since Yorrin provided an answer I like.

[Kryx]

It follows the 4e tradition of a Sorcerer's niche being a blaster.

Overall the Sorcerer is significantly weaker than the Wizard by RAW - Which is why I buff them (see my signature).

[SharkForce]

it isn't just a matter of how many spells are lost. it's *which* spells are lost. the sorcerer not having access to, say, alarm? not a big deal. yeah, it's obviously less variety, but it isn't as if they were likely to take that spell anyways. but, for example, the sorcerer has only one "summoning" spell (animate objects, which is not mechanically a summoning spell but is close enough to be functionally the same thing), and *that* is a big loss.

then combine that with only knowing a mere pittance of the possible spell list, and they're really hurting.

[Demonic Spoon]

It follows the 4e tradition of a Sorcerer's niche being a blaster.


I don't think you can actually reasonably say this. The wizard has blasty-type spells that the sorcerer doesnt' have, too. Furthermore, several metamagic options are best used with non-blasty spells, and Twin Spell makes the sorcerer uniquely awesome at buffing.

[Nifft]

It follows the 4e tradition of a Sorcerer's niche being a blaster. Let's not edition war here.

My 4e Wizard was a fantastic blaster.

- - -

Hmm. Thinking about 4e, the Celestial Sorcerer was really neat. I never got to play one, though. Now I want that to make its way into 5e.

[Rhaegar14]

It follows the 4e tradition of a Sorcerer's niche being a blaster.

I think this might have been the intent, but it's certainly not what they accomplished. If Sorcerers are blasters there is no reason for them to not have access to spells like Flaming Sphere or Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, and those two are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.

[MaxWilson]

it isn't just a matter of how many spells are lost. it's *which* spells are lost. the sorcerer not having access to, say, alarm? not a big deal. yeah, it's obviously less variety, but it isn't as if they were likely to take that spell anyways. but, for example, the sorcerer has only one "summoning" spell (animate objects, which is not mechanically a summoning spell but is close enough to be functionally the same thing), and *that* is a big loss.

then combine that with only knowing a mere pittance of the possible spell list, and they're really hurting.

They're only hurting in a relative sense. Sorlocks and sorcadins are still amazing, but they're more analogous to fighters than to wizards: they have a few tricks and they do them really, really well. Shield, Counterspell, Enhance Ability, Polymorph, Animate Objects, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Quickened Blink, Quickened Mirror Image, Quickened Mass Suggestion, Quickened Globe of Invulnerability: all of these spells are terrific and they're each terrific in a different way. It's too bad they don't have Absorb Elements by RAW, but they have plenty of other fun toys.

That being said, I do think it's better to give the PHB sorcerers the same kinds of bonus spells that UA sorcerers get. For dragon sorcs I give them a set list including Comprehend Languages, Charm Person, Hold Person, Suggestion, Fear, and other dragon-ish spells useful for building an empire. For wild sorcs I roll two random spells of each level 1-5. Each wild sorc is different.

For the most part these extra spells are more flavorful than useful, which is why I say PHB sorcs are fine even without them, but it's kind of fun when the wild sorc/paladin actually finds a use for his useless spells like Jump (to attack a vampire who's Spider Climbed up to the ceiling in order to heal while Dodging).

TLDR; yes, the wizard list is way better. But sorcerers, especially multiclass sorcerers, are still fun to play.

[Dralnu]

it isn't just a matter of how many spells are lost. it's *which* spells are lost. the sorcerer not having access to, say, alarm? not a big deal. yeah, it's obviously less variety, but it isn't as if they were likely to take that spell anyways. but, for example, the sorcerer has only one "summoning" spell (animate objects, which is not mechanically a summoning spell but is close enough to be functionally the same thing), and *that* is a big loss.

then combine that with only knowing a mere pittance of the possible spell list, and they're really hurting.

Yeah, that's where my gripe came from. It's okay for sorcerers not to have any of the very situational spells because realistically no sorcerer will take them anyway; the spells known for a sorcerer is too small to take highly specific utility. Most of the rituals fall into this category along with tons of other spells.

Just a couple of the missed spells my sorcerer would've loved to take: Find Familiar, Flaming Sphere, Evard's Black Tentacles, Watery Sphere, Wall of Force (really???), Bigby's Hand.



I asked Mike Mearls on Twitter this question and he was gracious enough to respond (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/620344878799523841).


for sorcerer, we avoid more complex spells. Sorcerer magic is simpler, more direct

I'm happy he responded but if this is the actual reasoning.. oh dear.

[PoeticDwarf]

Yet another "Dralnu gripes about sorcerers" thread!

So it's pretty obvious that the Sorcerer's spell list is shorter than the Wizard's. But it surprised me how much of a smaller selection of spells it really is.

Counting EE, the Sorcerer has 160 spells available to choose from. The Wizard has 252. That's a 92 spell difference, 63%.

What's up with that?

Compare the wizard and others, wizards have the most spells.

Sorcerer are just to weak for me, because I don't think their 15 spells at lv. 20 is going to work.

[Kryx]

I don't think you can actually reasonably say this.
The Sorcerer shared the same list until 4e where a sorcerer was a striker and a wizard was a controller.

That's where 5e took the restricted list from. This isn't an edition war - just the history of the class.



If Sorcerers are blasters there is no reason for them to not have access to spells like Flaming Sphere or Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, and those two are just off the top of my head.
Sorcerers don't have access to named spells like Otiluke's or Melf's for flavor reasons. The idea is these are spells invented by wizards and they do not occur naturally.

[Demonic Spoon]

The Sorcerer shared the same list until 4e where a sorcerer was a striker and a wizard was a controller.

That's where 5e took the restricted list from. This isn't an edition war - just the history of the class.


There are plenty of other explanations for the differing spell lists other than 4e roles, such as, as pointed out above, the idea that a huge and varied spell list is one of the wizard's schticks.

If WotC was intending to shoehorn sorcerers into the "Blasting" role, you'd expect their spell list and metamagic options to reflect that. They don't. They have tons of buff spells, tons of control spells, and tons of metamagic options that benefit control spells over other spells. They have one subclass which provides benefits to blasting, and another subclass which doesn't, at all.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm happy he responded but if this is the actual reasoning.. oh dear.

I actually like that reasoning. Wizards studied hard and came across complex ways of using magic. Sorcerer magic comes from within, and is much more primal.

[MrStabby]

I actually like that reasoning. Wizards studied hard and came across complex ways of using magic. Sorcerer magic comes from within, and is much more primal.

I would agree with this but would also be nice to have some more "primal" spells that wizards couldn't get.

[Shining Wrath]

There are a few spells sorcerers get that wizards do not - AFB but I recall there being a few decent spells on that list; mostly they were elemental in nature, the sorts of things druids get.

Mearls answer also explains why sorcerers don't get rituals. Other classes learn magic and know spells; sorcerers are magic and innately do spells. Sorcerers can't do anything that requires study and complex activation; they can do the stuff they can "feel".

As a perhaps oversimplified analogy, wizards are Pepe Romero, sorcerers are BB King. Both are legendary guitarists, but they have radically different approaches to the instrument.

I think we can see where WotC is going with the sorcerer by looking at the Favored Soul and Stormborn. You're going to get variant sorcerers which gain additional spells from other lists similar to a Land Druid circle spells or a Cleric Domain spells, and this will both give sorcerers more spells known and a wider selection.

I have a homebrew "Light" sorcerer I'm working on.

[Naanomi]

Sorcerers don't have access to named spells like Otiluke's or Melf's for flavor reasons. The idea is these are spells invented by wizards and they do not occur naturally.
I get this though it does cut out some elemental spells that would make some dragon color variants more versatile (snilloc and his snowballs)

[Kryx]

There are plenty of other explanations for the differing spell lists other than 4e roles, such as, as pointed out above, the idea that a huge and varied spell list is one of the wizard's schticks.
It was also one of the Sorcerer's Schticks in 3.X. The role change in 4e changed that. 5e seemingly went with the same design. You're placing too much emphasis on blasting. What I really I meant was "striker" as per 4e.

Sorcerers are significantly more limited than 3.X in comparison to wizards - this is likely due to a decision from wizards to differentiate the classes more.
There are many threads already that discuss Sorc vs Wiz balance. Wizard schools are easily a match for origins and metamagic. It has been debated significantly. Not only that there are many other advantages to running a wiz: More spells, free rituals, arcane recovery, etc.
But we don't need to go into this at length as it would just spawn another debate thread.



I get this though it does cut out some elemental spells that would make some dragon color variants more versatile (snilloc and his snowballs)
I don't agree with the choice for exactly this reason - just stating why Wizards does it.

[Demonic Spoon]

It was also one of the Sorcerer's Schticks in 3.X. The role change in 4e changed that. 5e seemingly went with the same design. You're placing too much emphasis on blasting. What I really I meant was "striker" as per 4e.



CC/Buffing - both things that sorcerers are good at - do not constitute being a "striker" either.



Sorcerers are significantly more limited than 3.X in comparison to wizards - this is likely due to a decision from wizards to differentiate the classes more.
There are many threads already that discuss Sorc vs Wiz balance. Wizard schools are easily a match for origins and metamagic. It has been debated significantly. Not only that there are many other advantages to running a wiz: More spells, free rituals, arcane recovery, etc.
But we don't need to go into this at length as it would just spawn another debate thread.


Stop making direct comparisons to 3.x, especially with regards to tier 1/2 full casters that got hugely toned down. This isn't a question of balance, this is a question about general class design. You say that sorcerers were designed as blasters or strikers, but nothing about the way that the 5e class is designed supports that. Do you think that WotC meant to force sorcerers into that role, but they just accidentally gave them subclasses, spells, and class features that dont' support that?

[Kryx]

You can choose to view a Sorcerer however you want. WotC has chosen to view it as a more limited Wizard in several regards. Mearls himself says they view a Sorcerer as having more "simple" spells:

for sorcerer, we avoid more complex spells. Sorcerer magic is simpler, more direct

Whatever you want to call that - whether it's striker, or more limited, that is the choice that WotC has made. I do not agree with it.

Sorcerers are significantly behind a Wizard:

Spells List For spells sometimes it makes sense in cases like Alarm. Other times like animate dead, antimagic field, bestow curse, bigsby's hand, Melf's Acid Arrow, etc I don't agree that a Sorcerer should not have it.
Spells Known 15+10 (for favored/storm) vs 44+ spells automatically known by the wizard.
Spell Recovery before you say "Sorcs can recover spells too!" they then trade most of their metamagic (which is the only thing that makes them unique) to get an equivalent amount of spells. At which point the Wizard's already equivalent spell school signficantly outweighs a sorc's metamgic with much less points.

The Sorcerer was actually not going to be in 5e, but then they changed their mind and found an identity that was unique. That identity is less powerful than the class that they have been compared to (and have been less powerful than) in every edition. You may find that to be acceptable. I have never found it to be acceptable.

[Easy_Lee]

Sorcerers are supposed to do more with fewer spells. The trouble with the PHB options is that WotC doesn't let sorcerers cast most spells which would be really good with metamagic (like Foresight, as one high level example). It's kind of a self-defeating thing, having metamagic but not having much to do with it.

That said, sorcerers can be very good when played creatively, especially as a favored soul with their expanded spell list. Subtle Command and similar is a favorite of mine, since nobody knows you did it. The RP potential is endless. Unless your DM is a total ass, sorcerers can do fine.

The other trouble is that WotC are some real ****heads about the Twin metamagic. I'd houserule that in a heartbeat.

[Kryx]

That said, sorcerers can be very good when played creatively, especially as a favored soul with their expanded spell list. Subtle Command and similar is a favorite of mine, since nobody knows you did it. The RP potential is endless. Unless your DM is a total ass, sorcerers can do fine.
Agreed that Sorcerers in play are actually pretty good. They can definitely be fun.

My gripe is the balance aspect in comparison and the lack of especially high level spells, but even many lower level spells like grease.

[MrStabby]

You can choose to view a Sorcerer however you want. WotC has chosen to view it as a more limited Wizard in several regards. Mearls himself says they view a Sorcerer as having more "simple" spells:


Whatever you want to call that - whether it's striker, or more limited, that is the choice that WotC has made. I do not agree with it.

Sorcerers are significantly behind a Wizard:

Spells List For spells sometimes it makes sense in cases like Alarm. Other times like animate dead, antimagic field, bestow curse, bigsby's hand, Melf's Acid Arrow, etc I don't agree that a Sorcerer should not have it.
Spells Known 15+10 (for favored/storm) vs 44+ spells automatically known by the wizard.
Spell Recovery before you say "Sorcs can recover spells too!" they then trade most of their metamagic (which is the only thing that makes them unique) to get an equivalent amount of spells. At which point the Wizard's already equivalent spell school signficantly outweighs a sorc's metamgic with much less points.

The Sorcerer was actually not going to be in 5e, but then they changed their mind and found an identity that was unique. That identity is less powerful than the class that they have been compared to (and have been less powerful than) in every edition. You may find that to be acceptable. I have never found it to be acceptable.


Not all spell slots are equal. Sorcerers, having the flexibility to recover slots of the combination of levels they chose, will always be able to get closer to what they need in an adventuring day. If you need more fireball then you take level 3 slots, for example. You can do this mid combat and not need a short rest. Metamagic abilities that twin spells correspondingly can be more efficient than casting two spells. Quickened cantrips and full action cantrips on the same turn are often more effective than level 1 spells and so on. The trick to a sorcerer is to play them smart to get the best use out of their resources. If you just default to not thinking ahead and just doing what seems the most powerful only within the context of a turn then of course they will seem less powerful than a wizard.

Sorcerers in the past have been less powerful than wizards; now they are just harder to get the most out of.

[Easy_Lee]

I wonder if sorcerers even need to have a limited spell list. They end up with fewer spells than wizards anyway due to having to pick spells rather than find and inscribe them. If wizards are supposed to cast any spell while sorcerers are meant to specialize, then it should be fine to just let sorcerers have the same list.

[Kryx]

Sorcerers, having the flexibility to recover slots of the combination of levels they chose
Wizards do the exact same with Arcane Recovery from level 1. They can do one big spell, or many small


You can do this mid combat and not need a short rest.
This is indeed nice.


Metamagic abilities that twin spells correspondingly can be more efficient than casting two spells. Quickened cantrips and full action cantrips on the same turn are often more effective than level 1 spells and so on. The trick to a sorcerer is to play them smart to get the best use out of their resources.
These these are true and are great things, but the Wizard's schools almost universally are comparable in their benefits. There was a thread about it a while ago where a poster was arguing about it with another guy and he compared many of the metamagic aspects to Wizard schools.





I wonder if sorcerers even need to have a limited spell list. They end up with fewer spells than wizards anyway due to having to pick spells rather than find and inscribe them. If wizards are supposed to cast any spell while sorcerers are meant to specialize, then it should be fine to just let sorcerers have the same list.
I came to the same conclusion today. The Sorcerer is already limited by spells known so they won't pick many anyways, but it'd be nice.

There are a few spells that are on the Sorc list and not the Wizard: Enhance Ability (2nd), Daylight (3rd), Water Walk(3rd), Dominate Beast (4th), Insect Plague (5th), Fire Storm (7th), Earthquake (8th). Those would have to get added to the Wizard list.

One other thing I noticed: Sorc has Melf's Minute Meteors, but not many other named spells. Seems inconsistent.

[Naanomi]

One other thing I noticed: Sorc has Melf's Minute Meteors, but not many other named spells. Seems inconsistent.
Clearly Melf lied about creating that spell!

[Easy_Lee]

One other thing I noticed: Sorc has Melf's Minute Meteors, but not many other named spells. Seems inconsistent.

Huh, seems like an oversight. I can kind of see what they were going for, wizards researching and naming spells with sorcerers just intuiting them. Still, it seems pointless. A sorcerer would just cast Melf's My Minute Meteors

[MrStabby]

Clearly Melf lied about creating that spell!

I always felt that Melf's Minute Meteors was a description put about by his enemies, defaming his reproductive organs.

[Nifft]

I wonder if sorcerers even need to have a limited spell list. They end up with fewer spells than wizards anyway due to having to pick spells rather than find and inscribe them. If wizards are supposed to cast any spell while sorcerers are meant to specialize, then it should be fine to just let sorcerers have the same list. There's some value in having a smaller list of better, more flexible spells, which contain no trap spells that you'll regret later. (The value is that it's easier for a new player to not make a mistake.)

One interesting bit of triva: in 3.5e, the Sorcerer actually had more spells on her list than the Wizard, thanks to the introduction of Sorcerer-only spells in books like Dragon Magic.

Several spells also had Sorcerer-only benefits.


One other thing I noticed: Sorc has Melf's Minute Meteors, but not many other named spells. Seems inconsistent. Yeah, that is inconsistent.

I'd suggest just renaming the spell.

[Easy_Lee]

There's some value in having a smaller list of better, more flexible spells, which contain no trap spells that you'll regret later. (The value is that it's easier for a new player to not make a mistake.)

Trouble is that, instead of doing that, WotC just removed most of the spells that could benefit the most from metamagic.

[Nifft]

Trouble is that, instead of doing that, WotC just removed most of the spells that could benefit the most from metamagic.
Well, sure -- but I'm not arguing that WotC picked the right spells.

I'm just arguing that a limited list could provide value.

[Dralnu]

Sorcerers don't have access to named spells like Otiluke's or Melf's for flavor reasons. The idea is these are spells invented by wizards and they do not occur naturally.

I hope that's not an official reason, because while Sorcerers don't get Melf's Acid Arrow, they DO get Melf's Minute Meteors. They also get Aganazzar's Scorcher, Maximilian's Earthen Grasp, Snilloc's Snowball Swarm, and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting.

Those are all Elemental Evil spells though, so maybe this WAS their reasoning before but they've discarded it as time went on.

My problem with denying Sorcerers spells for flavor reasons is without providing them other spells for compensation is it's a mechanical nerf. Okay, Sorcerers don't get XYZ spells -- then give them ABC spells to balance it out.

The end result though, is Sorcerers are behind 92 spells to Wizards. If the reason for this was "well Wizards having the biggest spell list over everyone, not just Sorcerers: that's their thing," then I can get behind that. It makes sense to me (and this lines up with reality). But when the reason ISN'T that, it's just that they don't want Sorcerers to have all these spells for flavor reasons, that's when I get worried about the design process.


I would agree with this but would also be nice to have some more "primal" spells that wizards couldn't get.

Yup, that's it exactly. "Sorcerers don't get XYZ for flavor" but no compensation.


Sorcerers are supposed to do more with fewer spells. The trouble with the PHB options is that WotC doesn't let sorcerers cast most spells which would be really good with metamagic (like Foresight, as one high level example). It's kind of a self-defeating thing, having metamagic but not having much to do with it.

That said, sorcerers can be very good when played creatively, especially as a favored soul with their expanded spell list. Subtle Command and similar is a favorite of mine, since nobody knows you did it. The RP potential is endless. Unless your DM is a total ass, sorcerers can do fine.

The other trouble is that WotC are some real ****heads about the Twin metamagic. I'd houserule that in a heartbeat.

Yeah, it's that and the amount of metamagics is way too few. I'm playing a level 8 sorcerer and I've only known the same 2 metamagics since level 1. I'd LOVE to do cool things with Subtle metamagic and stuff, but my choice at level 1 has barred me from anything outside of Quicken and Twin until level 11.


I wonder if sorcerers even need to have a limited spell list. They end up with fewer spells than wizards anyway due to having to pick spells rather than find and inscribe them. If wizards are supposed to cast any spell while sorcerers are meant to specialize, then it should be fine to just let sorcerers have the same list.

Wizards can prepare more spells than the Sorcerer even knows. Significantly more at low levels, eventually just 3 more. Then of course the Wizard knows way more spells than the Sorcerer ever will.

I don't know if those two things are enough to justify not having Metamagic, but certainly once you factor in how many of the great spells are Wizard-exclusive it definitely seems to me that Sorcerers got the short end.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, sure -- but I'm not arguing that WotC picked the right spells.

I'm just arguing that a limited list could provide value.

Sure, and that's fair. I generally prefer diversity, a system which allows many options. To that end, I'd rather have a list of suggested spell choices for new players than a smaller spell list for sorcerers.

[Dimolyth]

Though I clearly understand, that "Sorcerer vs Wizard" holy war will last longer than Blood War between demons and devils...

In 3.X. the schtick of Sorcerer was - spontangeous fullcaster. That meant that he could repeat his fireball damn MORE and MORE times, than an ultimate powerful wizard.
Now, everybody can replicate that.
So, the new schtick of sorcerer is meant to be repeating his fireball each time in unique manner (via metamagic or spontangeously builded slots).
That is said, that WOTC brought that idea for caster, who repeats casting obvious spells here and there, but each time he uses it in unique sorcererous way.
I`d like to say, available lists or the number of spell known are not the main probleme of Sorcerer.
The MAIN probleme with that - is the number of sorcerous points, which is not enough for both - slot constructing and metamagic. But that is mainly a balance issue against multiclassing options (sorcerers are already awesome in that, give them more, they`ll disbalance system).

That means, yes, I`m fun of sorcerer. But I`m absoluely okay with limited spell list. He is not bard or wizard after all. He is not DESIGNED to be them.
And if anyone (really, just like me) want metamagic-user with a lot of spell known - go multiclassing lore bard/favored sul sorcerer, loose theoretical acces to 8-9 spells and and the game with tons of spell-known and a lot of slots to break. Do you still remember, that metamagic itself in 3.X. burnt out higher level slots? That will be exactly that type of character - primal, and strange, and mystic way to cast spells (use components instead of music instrument or arcane focus).

[Kryx]

I hope that's not an official reason, because while Sorcerers don't get Melf's Acid Arrow, they DO get Melf's Minute Meteors. They also get Aganazzar's Scorcher, Maximilian's Earthen Grasp, Snilloc's Snowball Swarm, and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting.

Those are all Elemental Evil spells though, so maybe this WAS their reasoning before but they've discarded it as time went on.
They were indeed restricted to Wizard for that reason - I forget if it was 4e that started that trend or if it was 5e, but I do remember reading it.

And ya, EE seems to have discarded that idea. And I'm happy they did. EE was after they noticed that Sorc was lacking and gave it Favored Soul and Storm Sorc




Wizards can prepare more spells than the Sorcerer even knows. Significantly more at low levels, eventually just 3 more. Then of course the Wizard knows way more spells than the Sorcerer ever will.
A Wizard can prepare 25+2 spells. A RAW sorc knows 15. With Storm, Favored Soul, or houserules like mine a Sorc knows 15+10 and the difference becomes 2.


I've buffed dragon and wild magic to match the spells for storm and favored. I'm also going to combine sorc and wizard spell lists. I've also buffed metamagic and Sorcerous restoration:
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10, 4 at 15, and 5 at 20. See giantItP for comments on this
Houserule (Buff): Give extra spells known based on Origin. See Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU)

Small amounts, but I didn't want to make it overpowering.

[Dimolyth]

Sure, and that's fair. I generally prefer diversity, a system which allows many options. To that end, I'd rather have a list of suggested spell choices for new players than a smaller spell list for sorcerers.

To be honest - I agree with you. But in that diversity - we should allow to a wizard legal mechanism to invent his own spells (and only to wizards, not to bards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, or minor casters)... As the only signature feature of the class, but...
...yeah, WOTC are afraid of balance and complexity. And they are probably right.

[Dimolyth]

I'm considering allowing a feat for 1 metamagic and 1 sorcery point and another for 2 sorcery points. I wasn't before when Sorcs only had metamagic, but if you give them a bit more then it'd be ok imo.

Personnaly I don`t like idea to give metamagic to non-sorcerer. It could be compaired with giving an Action Surge to non-fighter or Wild Shape to non-druid... Signature features are made to be unique (that is why I don`t like Mystic from UA)

[Kryx]

Personnaly I don`t like idea to give metamagic to non-sorcerer. It could be compaired with giving an Action Surge to non-fighter or Wild Shape to non-druid... Signature features are made to be unique (that is why I don`t like Mystic from UA)
And yet we have Martial Adept which allows pilfering of Manuevers.

I'd normally be inclined to agree, but I wonder if it should be allowed if the Sorc is buffed to near wizard level like I do. (It's still significantly behind so maybe not).

[GiantOctopodes]

Let's not forget the other impact of being a Ritual Caster, with the mechanics the Wizard has- they have access to their ritual spells without preparing them. As such, the 20th level Wizard actually has access to a max of 44 spells (25 + 2 3rd level + 17 ritual spells). The sorcerer would need to use a feat to keep up (specifically, Ritual Caster off the Wizard list). I will also point out that, including Ritual Spells, the Wizard has the 3.5 sorcerer's spontaneous casting, with more spells prepared than the 3.5 sorcerer had known, while being able to swap those spells out every day. It's like a strictly better version of the 3.5 sorcerer (except the number of slots). It should also be noted that this means the 5e Wizard can have prepared more unique spells than the 3.5 wizard (max 44 spells vs max 36), while of course having far more flexibility in his casting mechanics. Meanwhile the Sorcerer, with a base number of spells known of 15, has less than half the number of spells known of his 3.5 equivalent. He also still cannot swap out spells, and loses access to his familiar. It's like it's a strictly worse version of the 3.5 sorcerer.

Really, metamagic is their only saving grace, and it stands up as a comparable option to the advantages gained through the subclasses of Wizard, but not overwhelmingly superior. They do multiclass very effectively, but otherwise, the longer I play the game and the more I've seen both of them in action, the more I must conclude that without houserules and / or modifications, the Sorcerer simply doesn't stack up to the Wizard as well as it should. Really, for a Favored Soul Sorcerer (the most competitive current subclass) to be competitive with a Wizard, I think the minimum you would need to do is give him the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat for free. Even then it's still debatable, but at least it helps close the gap.



I've buffed dragon and wild magic to match the spells for storm and favored. I'm also going to combine sorc and wizard spell lists. I've also buffed metamagic and Sorcerous restoration:
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10, 4 at 15, and 5 at 20.

Small amounts, but I didn't want to make it overpowering.

I'm considering allowing a feat for 1 metamagic and 2 sorcery points. I wasn't before when Sorcs only had metamagic, but if you give them a bit more then it might be ok imo.

All of that looks good, and it certainly helps bridge the gap while keeping them unique.

What, if anything, are you giving the favored soul to help them stay competitive with their Dragon and Wild Magic brethren? Might I recommend the 1st level domain abilities for the domain chosen?

Also, I'd recommend having it be 1 sorcery point per two character levels for the feat, since sorcery points (normally) only come back on a long rest, and that way they get enough sorcery points (max 5) to either do something meaningful (like twin a 5th level spell) or have enough uses of careful spell, subtle spell, or whatever, to really have some fun with it.

[Shining Wrath]

Also worth mentioning in this discussion is that for a 5e character Charisma is a better ability than Intelligence. INT gets you 5 less-used skills, CHA gets you 4, some of which are used routinely.

[asorel]

Also worth mentioning in this discussion is that for a 5e character Charisma is a better ability than Intelligence. INT gets you 5 less-used skills, CHA gets you 4, some of which are used routinely.

That depends on the campaign. My party has made more INT checks by a significant margin so far than CHA checks, as our first course of action was to head into the wilderness.

[SharkForce]

Also worth mentioning in this discussion is that for a 5e character Charisma is a better ability than Intelligence. INT gets you 5 less-used skills, CHA gets you 4, some of which are used routinely.

matter of perspective. I've played in games where skills like nature, religion, history, and arcana were used quite a bit. especially as a wizard, some of those skills can be used to identify your opponents, and therefore identify their weaknesses and strengths (which is to say, to figure out which of your spells to use against them).

likewise, investigation can be quite valuable also.

simply put, if intelligence skills are not being used, that's because the players aren't asking enough questions or the DM is choosing to not give answers, or is giving answers without requiring skill investment just as has in times past been a problem for social skills with charismatic players.

[Shining Wrath]

That depends on the campaign. My party has made more INT checks by a significant margin so far than CHA checks, as our first course of action was to head into the wilderness.


matter of perspective. I've played in games where skills like nature, religion, history, and arcana were used quite a bit. especially as a wizard, some of those skills can be used to identify your opponents, and therefore identify their weaknesses and strengths (which is to say, to figure out which of your spells to use against them).

likewise, investigation can be quite valuable also.

simply put, if intelligence skills are not being used, that's because the players aren't asking enough questions or the DM is choosing to not give answers, or is giving answers without requiring skill investment just as has in times past been a problem for social skills with charismatic players.

Agreed that all skill comparisons are campaign based. But it is a very rare campaign where the party never interacts with NPCs.

[Kryx]

Let's not forget the other impact of being a Ritual Caster, with the mechanics the Wizard has- they have access to their ritual spells without preparing them. As such, the 20th level Wizard actually has access to a max of 44 spells (25 + 2 3rd level + 17 ritual spells). The sorcerer would need to use a feat to keep up (specifically, Ritual Caster off the Wizard list). I will also point out that, including Ritual Spells, the Wizard has the 3.5 sorcerer's spontaneous casting, with more spells prepared than the 3.5 sorcerer had known, while being able to swap those spells out every day. It's like a strictly better version of the 3.5 sorcerer (except the number of slots). It should also be noted that this means the 5e Wizard can have prepared more unique spells than the 3.5 wizard (max 44 spells vs max 36), while of course having far more flexibility in his casting mechanics. Meanwhile the Sorcerer, with a base number of spells known of 15, has less than half the number of spells known of his 3.5 equivalent. He also still cannot swap out spells, and loses access to his familiar. It's like it's a strictly worse version of the 3.5 sorcerer.
Agreed - forgot to mention this. And I think that will kill the metamagic feat for me.


I must conclude that without houserules and / or modifications, the Sorcerer simply doesn't stack up to the Wizard as well as it should.
It really pleases me to see that this forum overall has come around to the idea that Sorcs are not strong enough.


Really, for a Favored Soul Sorcerer (the most competitive current subclass) to be competitive with a Wizard, I think the minimum you would need to do is give him the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat for free. Even then it's still debatable, but at least it helps close the gap.
I had once suggested the same, but have since reversed my opinion. Ritual simply doesn't fit with the Sorcerer's default fluff imo. Ritual casting is all about knowing spells and their components. Sorcerers just cast inherently - they wouldn't know the incantations for rituals unless you assume they are somehow passed down - maybe orally or in a book.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the flavor subject though.


All of that looks good, and it certainly helps bridge the gap while keeping them unique.
Thanks! :)


What, if anything, are you giving the favored soul to help them stay competitive with their Dragon and Wild Magic brethren? Might I recommend the 1st level domain abilities for the domain chosen?
In my opinion I think Favored Soul = Storm Sorcerer = Draconic Bloodline >> Wild Magic.
Favored soul can cherry pick the best abilities from a Cleric. What makes you think that a Favored Soul is a tier lower?

If you allowed the first level benefit you'd have Life Domain favored souls in Heavy Armor...


Also, I'd recommend having it be 1 sorcery point per two character levels for the feat, since sorcery points (normally) only come back on a long rest, and that way they get enough sorcery points (max 5) to either do something meaningful (like twin a 5th level spell) or have enough uses of careful spell, subtle spell, or whatever, to really have some fun with it.
That's essentially giving 10 levels of Sorcerer for 1 feat... That seems like a bad idea.
I actually split feats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14ospp70vgWKehPRegAae8eKjH8YynlEgabiOGEn9RJQ) into equal power levels. I'd likely allow 1 or 2 extra Sorcery points for my half feat cost.

[Dralnu]

They were indeed restricted to Wizard for that reason - I forget if it was 4e that started that trend or if it was 5e, but I do remember reading it.

And ya, EE seems to have discarded that idea. And I'm happy they did. EE was after they noticed that Sorc was lacking and gave it Favored Soul and Storm Sorc




A Wizard can prepare 25+2 spells. A RAW sorc knows 15. With Storm, Favored Soul, or houserules like mine a Sorc knows 15+10 and the difference becomes 2.


I've buffed dragon and wild magic to match the spells for storm and favored. I'm also going to combine sorc and wizard spell lists. I've also buffed metamagic and Sorcerous restoration:
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10, 4 at 15, and 5 at 20.

Small amounts, but I didn't want to make it overpowering.

I'm considering allowing a feat for 1 metamagic and 2 sorcery points. I wasn't before when Sorcs only had metamagic, but if you give them a bit more then it might be ok imo.

Those houserules would be pretty much perfect.

That feat seems fine and fun. It's like the Battle Master feat for casters.


Also I promise this will be the last time I bring up Sorcerers. I know I've whined about them too much. They're great at multiclass with Lock/Pally/Bard and the two new subclasses are quite good. If I need to play a straight pure caster without homebrew I'll suck it up and play Wiz.

[asorel]

Those houserules would be pretty much perfect.

That feat seems fine and fun. It's like the Battle Master feat for casters.


Also I promise this will be the last time I bring up Sorcerers. I know I've whined about them too much. They're great at multiclass with Lock/Pally/Bard and the two new subclasses are quite good. If I need to play a straight pure caster without homebrew I'll suck it up and play Wiz.

I rolled high on INT and CHA (not to mention a backstory to fit), so I've gone with a Wizard (Generalist) 6/Sorcerer (Draconic) X. Combine that with caster MC houserules to allow learning high level spells with MC, and I have a viable character.

[Citan]

Hi all :)

I'll admit I didn't play much yet th edifferent classes, but I quite don't understand such heavy gripes being expressed against Sorcerer.

Sure, its spell list is quite more limited than the Wizard. But, as has been quoted before in the thread, it's both questions of balance and fluff.
Sorcerer having magic flows instinctively and "pour out of them", it would be natural that they become able to Animate Objects. Because, fluff-wise, it's as easy as "pour your magic into object to make it move".
On the contrary, fluff-wise, it seems obvious that conjuring a true being, requires intense study since it means altering planes and timespaces or advanced knowledge of the creature and its environment. Reason why for example the Druide is the only one with Range being able to conjure Animals, and generally the second best conjurer after Wizard.

Same kind of reasoning could be repeated for the whole of Sorcerer List. Sure, you can get some spells who escape this (you feel some ought to be awarded to Sorcerer, or contrarily some shouldn't be available). But globally, it works.

Also, in terms of balance only, you can notice that WoTC strongly cared about having each class having exclusive or "nearly-exclusive" (=only another class has it) spells, and each class bending towards a playstyle coherent with the fluff. That's why Druid is good at conjuring, and otherwise has a balance of heal and damage dependant on plants and weather.
That's why the Bard is heavily oriented toward buffs.

As for the Sorcerer specific spell list, well... I really don't see the problem. Sure, there is a large majority of spells that serve the "combat self-sufficiency" of the sorcerer. But you still have quite a few utilities and RP options crammed (Clairvoyance, Dimension Door, Tongues).
And as noted by others, metamagic like Subtle Spell opens way to very many interesting tricks in RP.
As well as many potent options in combat that Wizard could only dream of (or attain by using much higher spell slots).

My only real gripes with the Sorcerer, as many here, are...
1. (minor gripe) The number of spell known (although Favored Soul compensates a fair bit). Survivable but bonus spells at some levels for all archetypes (like Bard) would have been nice.

2. (minor gripe) Metamagic Point pool. 20 points every long rest can be far enough or totally insufficient, depending on how you use them. The auto-recover at lvl20 seems weak to me, but well, two levels of Warlock can arrange that.

3. (major gripe) Metamagic options. At the very least, I'd like additional Metamagic options learned more often, especially because it's the core of its gameplay. Hence liking the houserule proposed hereabove.
I think that, it is precisely because Sorcerer learn so few Metamagic options to play with that most feel too limited with the spell learning.

TL;DR: If you feel frustrated by a lack of versatility, Use the proposed houserule above to expand your Metamagic options earlier, take two levels in Warlock early to enjoy 4 MP each short rest (although you lose one 6th and 7th slot and an AIS in the long run, so not a light choice ;)) and enjoy using your Metamagic to its fullest ! :smallsmile:
Or, if you just want plenty of spells, just go be wizard ! :p

I rolled high on INT and CHA (not to mention a backstory to fit), so I've gone with a Wizard (Generalist) 6/Sorcerer (Draconic) X. Combine that with caster MC houserules to allow learning high level spells with MC, and I have a viable character.
Ahem...
Sure, it's viable... But if it's the kind of ruling like "you can learn a spell of X level as long as you has a spell slot for this level" (= blunt summary of general system for full spellcasters), well... Every multiclass is probably totally viable. Even better, a completely dispersed character (like a main class with 1 dip in every other) could be better than a single-class in terms of spell versatility (like, be a Wizard in a dip in classes having exclusives like Paladin or Warlock). Because, beyond ASI, high-level learning is usually the major loss in multiclassing. :)

[Dimolyth]

And yet we have Martial Adept which allows pilfering of Manuevers.

I'd normally be inclined to agree, but I wonder if it should be allowed if the Sorc is buffed to near wizard level like I do. (It's still significantly behind so maybe not).

Manuevres are not really fighter`s signature (even not every fighter has acces to them), and in addition to Martial Adept, there is also UA spell-less Ranger.
For Sorcerer, you could say that there is Magic Initiate for them. Or ritual caster (even if it is totaly trap option). For sorcery-like feats to add, I`ll propose something emulating one of their origin features, not innate (exactly as Martial Adept functions).

[Dimolyth]

My only real gripes with the Sorcerer, as many here, are...
1. (minor gripe) The number of spell known (although Favored Soul compensates a fair bit). Survivable but bonus spells at some levels for all archetypes (like Bard) would have been nice.

2. (minor gripe) Metamagic Point pool. 20 points every long rest can be far enough or totally insufficient, depending on how you use them. The auto-recover at lvl20 seems weak to me, but well, two levels of Warlock can arrange that.

3. (major gripe) Metamagic options. At the very least, I'd like additional Metamagic options learned more often, especially because it's the core of its gameplay. Hence liking the houserule proposed hereabove.
I think that, it is precisely because Sorcerer learn so few Metamagic options to play with that most feel too limited with the spell learning.




I`m agree with you about defence of sorcerer, but the problems of most augmentations on him lies in multiclassing. Augment metamagic or sorcerous points - and Sorcerer/Warlock or Sorcerer/Paladin would outshine the rest of the party (doesn`t matter Fighter, Wizard, or Cleric).

[Nifft]

I've buffed dragon and wild magic to match the spells for storm and favored. I'm also going to combine sorc and wizard spell lists. I've also buffed metamagic and Sorcerous restoration:
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10, 4 at 15, and 5 at 20.

Small amounts, but I didn't want to make it overpowering.

I'm considering allowing a feat for 1 metamagic and 2 sorcery points. I wasn't before when Sorcs only had metamagic, but if you give them a bit more then it might be ok imo.

This looks really interesting.

I'm going to have to think about adding this stuff to my game.

[Kryx]

Also I promise this will be the last time I bring up Sorcerers. I know I've whined about them too much.
Please don't stop. This thread has been great for discussion.


Also thanks for the positive feedback guys! Great to see that I balanced it well. here is the full list I'm using after this post (added combined spell lists):

Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10, 4 at 15, and 5 at 20
Houserule (Buff): Give extra spells known based on Origin. See Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU)
Houserule (Buff): Combine spell lists with the Wizard. Add the following from the Sorcerer list to the Wizard list: Enhance Ability (2nd), Daylight (3rd), Water Walk(3rd), Dominate Beast (4th), Insect Plague (5th), Fire Storm (7th), Earthquake (8th)

The Sorcerous Origins has the extra spells for draconic and wild mage and the following buffs to their abilities:

Elemental Affinity: Remove the Sorcery point cost to gain the resistance. Bronze and Blue Dragons add their Charisma modifier for Thunder damage in addition to Lightning Damage.
Draconic Presence: Reduce the Sorcery point cost to 3 points.
Wild Magic Surge triggers for every non-cantrip spell on a 1 or a 20. Replace entry 07-08 on the Wild Magic table with a Stinking Cloud, centered on self, cast as a 3rd Level Spell that lasts for 1 minute.
Bend Luck: Costs 1 Sorcery point

[SharkForce]

Agreed that all skill comparisons are campaign based. But it is a very rare campaign where the party never interacts with NPCs.

I would agree that a lack of NPCs to interact with is quite rare.

I would also say that it is an even more rare campaign where there is absolutely nothing you could be asking questions about. you're trying to find an item that was last known to be in the hands of the great hero calain of tarana? hey guess what. you can make history checks about that hero's final days and get an idea of where you might look. how the hero died might give you a clue as to who had that item after him. was he buried with it? did he have children that might have inherited it? I could go on and on, and this is just about one fact. you encounter a moving statue... is it a golem? an animated object? does it have the mark of a well-known wizard, or does it bear the symbol of a god of trickery whose priests are known for painting their clay golems to look like rock? is that skeleton monster a form of undead, or an extraplanar creature, or a construct made of bones? or is it an illusion? when you read that diary, were there any unusual phrases or inconsistencies that might provide a hint or indicate the writer was trying to obscure the facts? most experienced D&D players will know how to kill a troll, but they might not recognize a troll if you describe it differently, and what if they encounter a mutated version that stops regenerating when you freeze it?

when you encounter a jawa sandcrawler surrounded by gaffi sticks and has bantha tracks leading away, will you realize that the sand people always travel in single file to hide their numbers and that the blast points are too precise and actually indicate imperial storm troopers did the deed and realize that the empire is looking for the droids you're traveling with, (thus knowing that you need to tell the storm troopers that you've owned said droids for three or four seasons), or will you tell the first imperial patrol you encounter that you just bought them and your family was recently slaughtered by the sand people thus painting a gigantic target on your forehead?

social skills are how you get information out of NPCs. intelligence skills are how you get information out of your environment. both are valuable resources.

edit: oh, and 2 levels of warlock doesn't give you 4 sorcery points per short rest to play with. you need 3 levels for that. 2 levels of warlock will only give you 2 points; 1 per spell level.

[Citan]

I`m agree with you about defence of sorcerer, but the problems of most augmentations on him lies in multiclassing. Augment metamagic or sorcerous points - and Sorcerer/Warlock or Sorcerer/Paladin would outshine the rest of the party (doesn`t matter Fighter, Wizard, or Cleric).
Hmm could be true if you add many houserules, but I don't see how only bringing additional Metamagic choice at some levels without touching anything else could ruin things.

If you think about things like Paladin using subtle spells, I'd say it's better to take the Warcaster feat than count on a very few MP per day. Paladin multiclassing Sorcerer will probably take other metamagic options anyways, and since you can only ever apply one metamagic to the spellcasting (and if you really want the Empowered on damage) I don't see it break game. No more than you could now.

Same with Warlock multiclass: game breaking comes from using warlock "short-rest" spell slots to convert them into MP points and then back into additional spell slots (bringing potentially very high number of lvl4-5 slots per day ^^). Which you can already do as is.

With that said, I'd personally only add a houserule to gain a third Metamagic at 3rd lvl or gain more Metamagic through levels. Another way would be to treat them as known/prepared Metamagic (a bit clunky though)/
On that topic...

Please don't stop. This thread has been great for discussion.


Also thanks for the positive feedback guys! Great to see that I balanced it well. here is the full list I'm using after this post (added combined spell lists):

Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10, 4 at 15, and 5 at 20
Houserule (Buff): Give extra spells known based on Origin. See Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU)
Houserule (Buff): Combine spell lists with the Wizard. Add the following from the Sorcerer list to the Wizard list: Enhance Ability (2nd), Daylight (3rd), Water Walk(3rd), Dominate Beast (4th), Insect Plague (5th), Fire Storm (7th), Earthquake (8th)

The Sorcerous Origins has the extra spells for draconic and wild mage and the following buffs to their abilities:

Elemental Affinity: Remove the Sorcery point cost to gain the resistance. Bronze and Blue Dragons add their Charisma modifier for Thunder damage in addition to Lightning Damage.
Draconic Presence: Reduce the Sorcery point cost to 3 points.
Wild Magic Surge triggers for every non-cantrip spell on a 1 or a 20. Replace entry 07-08 on the Wild Magic table with a Stinking Cloud, centered on self, cast as a 3rd Level Spell that lasts for 1 minute.
Bend Luck: Costs 1 Sorcery point

In my opinion, the cumulation of all these houserules makes the sorcerer too powerful compared to other spellcasters (eats a fair of Warlock AND Wizard). And potentially too good a choice for multiclass (while bother with INT to get wizard variety?). :)

Could be fair enough to use all in a campaign which forbids any multiclass though (although as a DM I would only bring the additional Metamagic options and MP recovery to avoid outshining some pure Wizards or Warlocks).

[Kryx]

In my opinion, the cumulation of all these houserules makes the sorcerer too powerful compared to other spellcasters (eats a fair of Warlock AND Wizard). And potentially too good a choice for multiclass (while bother with INT to get wizard variety?). :)

Could be fair enough to use all in a campaign which forbids any multiclass though (although as a DM I would only bring the additional Metamagic options and MP recovery to avoid outshining some pure Wizards or Warlocks).
The Wizard knows double by default - all of which he has the choice over. Even with my buffed version Sorcs only know 15+10. They are not stepping on any Wizard toes. The Wizard still has significant advantages over the Sorcerer - one being rituals.

Multiclass: not really any different from before. I, personally, don't allow the 2 warlock dip for EB+AB, but that's less related. MCing a Sorcerer is a strong choice because the default Sorc has bad progression. Making that progression better doesn't make MC better, it makes single classing a better choice in comparison.

A Warlock is quite a competent spellcaster. Contrary to popular belief they actually cast nearly as many spell level equivalents per day as a Wizard (if you actually do short rests). Plus they have the highest DPR of a caster.

[Citan]

The Wizard knows double by default - all of which he has the choice over. Even with my buffed version Sorcs only know 15+10. They are not stepping on any Wizard toes. The Wizard still has significant advantages over the Sorcerer - one being rituals.

Multiclass: not really any different from before. I, personally, don't allow the 2 warlock dip for EB+AB, but that's less related. MCing a Sorcerer is a strong choice because the default Sorc has bad progression. Making that progression better doesn't make MC better, it makes single classing a better choice in comparison.

A Warlock is quite a competent spellcaster. Contrary to popular belief they actually cast nearly as many spell level equivalents per day as a Wizard (if you actually do short rests). Plus they have the highest DPR of a caster.
The problem here is not in itself that you allow Sorcerers to know more spells. It's that you allow them to choose among the Wizard's list (which is basically all spells minus a few dozen). Meaning that you have no more reason to go any other class that Sorcerer especially for multiclass builds: you can be as good as a Druid with summons, nearly as good as a Bard with debuffs, as good as a Wizard with utilities and offensive. Only for healing would you look towards Bard.
Ritual Casting is no more a problem: just pick the Feat, takes Sorcerer (= CHA based wizard list) and you're set.

Apart from that, each of your houserule is very nice by itself: it's the accumulation of everything that makes it OP...
- No more need to dip Warlock to get some MP regen.
- No more need to make difficult choice between Draconic and Favored Soul Origin (especially with extra spells you give from Draconic, which also takes some best spells from the Druid).
- No more need to invest in Bard if you want mid-to high level specific spells (except healing).
- No more need to consider a MAD multiclass to get good healing/conjuration/elemental spells.
- No more need to ponder between Warlock and Sorcerer for a versatile physical/caster.
- And you get plenty of Wizard spells that become brilliant with Metamagic (if only the Twinned Spell or Heightened Spell) or spells that strongly benefit a particular Draconic (ex Freezing Sphere). Or spells that are a good part of what make people choose Wizard (Mordenkainen spells, Forcecage, Eyebite, rituals etc).

Sorcerer indeed becomes largely good enough to be chosen as single-class to the point of shadowing other classes, but it now shines ever more with multiclass: basically Dex Paladin/Sorcerer becomes the most potent multiclass option by far unless you aim a very specific goal (pure ranged, healer): all the versatility of a Wizard, Elemental potency from Druids, metamagics usable a few times every short rest, melee fighting with smite, healing and protection spells (with are THE thing lacking in wizard list)... Go Draconic 14 / Devotion 6 to get Wings and +CHA to any saving throws, equip a shield, take a few feats like Warcaster and Spellsniper or Shield Master and you're set!

Sorry, I stronly stand firm on my position: all the rules at once is clearly overpowered. At the very least, the houserule extending the spell choice should be removed and the bonus spells should be added to the list but not automatically learnt (I agree though that it's nice for a Draconic to avoid multiclassing just to get spells coherent with the fluff). Instead, allow additional spell learnt at 3, 5, 9, 12, 15, 18 and 20 levels. Then Sorcerer becomes very good but "manageable".

[GiantOctopodes]

Ritual Casting is no more a problem: just pick the Feat, takes Sorcerer (= CHA based wizard list) and you're set.

Sorcerer indeed becomes largely good enough to be chosen as single-class to the point of shadowing other classes, but it now shines ever more with multiclass:

I just want to point out two things:

1) The Ritual spells don't benefit from a high ability score (not a single one of them). Taking the Sorcerer List vs the Wizard list would be in those circumstances identical, as it is now. And since Sorcerer is already on the list of choices for ritual caster (why, I have no idea, there is no reason anyone would ever take it), and the prereq is nonetheless int or wis 13 (which is also illogical, but whatever), nothing would actually change at all.

2) Multiclassing is optional. The great thing about houserules for your campaigns is you're in control. The first time someone plays a sorcerer under those houserules, I can't imagine letting them multiclass, because the first goal would be to see how they stack up on their own merit, and multiclassing muddies those waters. So if someone's going for Sorcerer / Paladin, or whatever else, you just say "no", and that problem is solved.

[Citan]

I just want to point out two things:

1) The Ritual spells don't benefit from a high ability score (not a single one of them). Taking the Sorcerer List vs the Wizard list would be in those circumstances identical, as it is now. And since Sorcerer is already on the list of choices for ritual caster (why, I have no idea, there is no reason anyone would ever take it), and the prereq is nonetheless int or wis 13 (which is also illogical, but whatever), nothing would actually change at all.

2) Multiclassing is optional. The great thing about houserules for your campaigns is you're in control. The first time someone plays a sorcerer under those houserules, I can't imagine letting them multiclass, because the first goal would be to see how they stack up on their own merit, and multiclassing muddies those waters. So if someone's going for Sorcerer / Paladin, or whatever else, you just say "no", and that problem is solved.
1) I agree on this, although I never understood why they didn't write it as having an ability requirement corresponding to the targeted class. Maybe because they didn't see anyone interested in taking CHA-based ritual list, of because of fluff... Hmm probably because of fluff, because I don't see how being charismatic helps understand and memorize complicated signs and symbols... ^^

2) I agree that multiclass can be forbidden, and I initially considered the houserule Sorcerer to be balanced as single-class in campaign. But I didn't take into account the bonus known spells and expanded spell list. Because of this, Sorcerer may be perfectly fine in a party or overshadowing other players.

For example, he could be on par in spellcasting efficiency with an Evocation Wizard (vs Draconic/Storm), Spellcasting-focused Warlock, Land Druid, Lore Bard.

Contrarily, there would be probably no problem having a Draconic Sorcerer as such in a party with Divination Wizard, EB or Blade Warlock, Hunter Ranger or Moon Druid for example.

It all depends on the group balance. As long as each player has an area of expertise / specific role to fulfill compared to others all is fine. :) Thing is, official balance makes sure there is very little chance that any class tiptoes on other whatever the composition of the group is by imposing restrictions on what each can do. These houserules bypass many of these safeguards, hence are not suited for any campaign/group.

[Kryx]

The problem here is not in itself that you allow Sorcerers to know more spells. It's that you allow them to choose among the Wizard's list (which is basically all spells minus a few dozen). Meaning that you have no more reason to go any other class that Sorcerer especially for multiclass builds: you can be as good as a Druid with summons, nearly as good as a Bard with debuffs, as good as a Wizard with utilities and offensive. Only for healing would you look towards Bard.
So - your basic complaint is that a Sorcerer is now just as powerful as the Wizard.. While that is the point of these buffs it is simply not true due to the reasons I outlined above. The straight Wizard is still significantly better than the straight Sorcerer.

If a Wizard's list is too powerful in comparison to other classes like Druid or Bard, that is a separate issue.


To avoid make a wall of quotes I'll summarize some here:

A feat has a feat cost. It is not free.
Not requiring MC is a feature, not a bug.
Wizard spell list is strong, but see above.
Draconic, Favored Soul, and Storm are all equally competitive imo. They have their different purposes: Draconic is raw damage, Favored Soul is cleric versatility, and Storm is damage + CC.
A warlock is still a great choice. A Bladelock is quite good actually - it would do significantly more DPR than a Favored Soul. I don't see how my houserules change this at all.
15+10 is extremely limiting. You're welcome to play with just 15 known - I think that's awful. Based on WotC's design they're moving away from that to 15+10.
Cleric, Circle Druid, Paladin, Storm, and Favored Soul already automatically learn their 10 bonus spells. If this was an issue for MCing then it would be an issue for all of them.




- And you get plenty of Wizard spells that become brilliant with Metamagic (if only the Twinned Spell or Heightened Spell) or spells that strongly benefit a particular Draconic (ex Freezing Sphere). Or spells that are a good part of what make people choose Wizard (Mordenkainen spells, Forcecage, Eyebite, rituals etc).
This is a Wizard superiority view, which is the default WotC view. Combining spell lists is designed to go against this view. This is a feature, not a bug.
Metamagic with these spells isn't going to be any more powerful than the Wizard School choices in most situations.


Dex Paladin/Sorcerer becomes the most potent multiclass option by far unless you aim a very specific goal (pure ranged, healer)
Healing: The Life domain gives you Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Revivify, Mass Cure Wounds. Those are great, but you're not a full healer - you're a supplementary healer like a Paladin.
"Elemental Druid potency" is undefined - a Wizard can already do this.

An EK+Wiz can already be a full armor caster. Or just take the 1st level in any heavy armor class.
A pure Sorc/Paladin can already do great burst and healing - the only thing added is "Elemental Druid potency"





It all depends on the group balance. As long as each player has an area of expertise / specific role to fulfill compared to others all is fine. :) Thing is, official balance makes sure there is very little chance that any class tiptoes on other whatever the composition of the group is by imposing restrictions on what each can do. These houserules bypass many of these safeguards, hence are not suited for any campaign/group.
If you think MCing makes this class op then don't allow the expanded spell list. I don't agree that it overshadows many roles. It still has a very limited spell list and you'd have to dedicate a lot to only partially covering the other role.

[Citan]

My bad on Elemental Spells, you're right Wizard has them in their list. Well, I'll make a try with your custom Sorcerer when I can so see how it fares with a normal Sorcerer.

[SharkForce]

the only compelling reason to go sorcerer over wizard for a paladin multiclass, even with the houseruled buffs, is because the sorcerer is charisma-based and the paladin gets a lot from charisma, so you can actually combine using spells offensively with melee if you want.

otherwise, the buffed sorcerer has some nice things, but so does the standard version of the wizard. there's plenty of warriors that would love to have something like the abjurer's ward, for example, or a philosopher's stone.

(on a side note... no, your summoning is not as good as a druid. druids are amazing summoners. wizards get elementals, and that's it... some day, that may be as versatile as druids, but right now beasts are a much better summon type, and without houserules to limit pixies, fey is amazing as well).

[Citan]

the only compelling reason to go sorcerer over wizard for a paladin multiclass, even with the houseruled buffs, is because the sorcerer is charisma-based and the paladin gets a lot from charisma, so you can actually combine using spells offensively with melee if you want.

otherwise, the buffed sorcerer has some nice things, but so does the standard version of the wizard. there's plenty of warriors that would love to have something like the abjurer's ward, for example, or a philosopher's stone.

(on a side note... no, your summoning is not as good as a druid. druids are amazing summoners. wizards get elementals, and that's it... some day, that may be as versatile as druids, but right now beasts are a much better summon type, and without houserules to limit pixies, fey is amazing as well).
"Only compelling reason to go sorcerer over wizard for a paladin multiclass, even with the houseruled buffs, is because the sorcerer is charisma-based and the paladin gets a lot from charisma". I really love the "only" compelling reason. Going wizard requires a hefty investment in INT to make spells useful, which precisely this houserule avoid.
Also, I wasn't talking about specific Arcane School bonus because obviously if you want them you'll go Wizard. I was focusing only on the spell choice versatility.

On summons, I agree with you that the Druid has the best summons, but I don't see how you wouldn't like a Conjurer Wizard which gives 30 THP to any summoned or created ally (in addition of getting Dominate Monster and Simulacrum which means double Conjuration).

By the way, if you disregard the extra THP of Conjurer Wizard, the best Summoner is in fact Lore Bard: getting Simulacrum as well as exclusive Druid summons (Fey, Woodlands) (or dropping Fey summon and Simulacrum to get Chain Warlock with Voice of The Master Invocation). :)

[SharkForce]

simulacrum means getting the best summoner for basically one day at a cost of a lot of gold and 12 hours of your time. that's nice and all, but it doesn't really become significant until you can start using wish, which sorcerers already got anyways. before then, it's mostly theoretical.

but yes, bards do make extremely good summoners if you build for it.

and my point was merely that wizard was never really in contention for a good choice for paladins to multiclass into in the first place. it's not a terrible choice either, though, and in fact, does not require any investment in int for the spells to be useful (it does require a 13 int for multiclassing to be allowed in the first place, but not to make spells useful). for starters, any level 1-4 spell slots can be used for smites. but even going beyond that, shield, mirror image, invisibility, light, blur, haste, misty step, jump, and many others do not require any attribute at all to get their full benefit. even at higher levels you have options like wall of force, bigby's hand, foresight, forcecage, and others which do not require a saving throw and can be useful.