Best counterspeller

[MrStabby]

So, on average, from levels 5 upwards. Which is the better class at counterspelling? Is it Abjuration Wizard ore Lore bard?

Abjuration wizard gets full proficiency bonus but Lore bard's Jack of all trades comes sooner and they can use a proficiency die at higher levels...

If you were to be a character in a long running campaign what classes would you want to play to be as good as possible at dispelling and countering?

[SharkForce]

lore bard in the long run.

but why would you build a character that revolves around counterspelling? you're pretty much going to end up in a losing battle if your goal is to prevent one single enemy from accomplishing things, especially if that enemy is not guaranteed to be present...

[MaxWilson]

So, on average, from levels 5 upwards. Which is the better class at counterspelling? Is it Abjuration Wizard ore Lore bard?

Abjuration wizard gets full proficiency bonus but Lore bard's Jack of all trades comes sooner and they can use a proficiency die at higher levels...

If you were to be a character in a long running campaign what classes would you want to play to be as good as possible at dispelling and countering?

Abjuror with support from a Lore Bard: inspiration dice and Enhance Ability (Intelligence). Lore Bard alone is pretty decent though due to Jack of All Trades.

[Thisguy_]

My instinct is to go with the Abjuration Wizard, but you may be surprised at what a Diviner school Wizard can bring when it comes to "Nuh uh," considering their foretelling rolls. If you like Wizards being able to dominate an encounter once in a while, start getting prophetic dreams now, because I'm relatively sure that being able to preroll dice and place your rolls mostly as you see fit outweighs the Abjurer's abilities... about once per day or so.

Furthermore, a College of Lore bard can buff himself good. Like, bard good. And then do abjuration spells on top of that, some of which he can probably buff. I'm not looking at the bard's spell list or rules when I say this, though.

Sometimes you want to look at a damage roll, then look up at your DM, and then say, "No." Abjuration school in a nutshell.

Go bard if you don't mind singing about it afterwards, and I'd presuppose you'd need a clever combo to outdo the Abjurer, but again, no expert here.

Sometimes you want to outright influence the fates, almost always in your favor. Oddly enough, that means playing a Diviner, even though their job description is prediction, not manipulation.

Thinking about this purely in terms of the spell, Counterspell, though, have you considered a Sorcerer? If you built around literally being the best at counterspell, casting it more often falls into the Sorcerer's ability set fairly nicely. Maybe even the Warlock's, if short rests are abundant enough, as both classes have it on their list.

EDIT: Frankly, if you want to be more proactive, I'd take Abjuration wizard. It does the job of protecting people from harm nicely, and can counterspell if needed on top of that/alongside it.

[MrUberGr]

What does Jack of All Trades have to do with counterspelling?:smallconfused:

[SharkForce]

What does Jack of All Trades have to do with counterspelling?:smallconfused:

counterspelling a spell of higher level than the slot you're using is an ability check.

[MrUberGr]

Oh, yeah ok. I thought it was something about recognizing what spell is being cast.

[MrStabby]

lore bard in the long run.

but why would you build a character that revolves around counterspelling? you're pretty much going to end up in a losing battle if your goal is to prevent one single enemy from accomplishing things, especially if that enemy is not guaranteed to be present...

Nah, not just shutting down an enemy. This is just for my bonus action. My thinking was that after 5th level any TPK would be likely to involve a high level spell so stopping those would be pretty important to the party.


My instinct is to go with the Abjuration Wizard, but you may be surprised at what a Diviner school Wizard can bring when it comes to "Nuh uh," considering their foretelling rolls. If you like Wizards being able to dominate an encounter once in a while, start getting prophetic dreams now, because I'm relatively sure that being able to preroll dice and place your rolls mostly as you see fit outweighs the Abjurer's abilities... about once per day or so.

Furthermore, a College of Lore bard can buff himself good. Like, bard good. And then do abjuration spells on top of that, some of which he can probably buff. I'm not looking at the bard's spell list or rules when I say this, though.

Sometimes you want to look at a damage roll, then look up at your DM, and then say, "No." Abjuration school in a nutshell.

Go bard if you don't mind singing about it afterwards, and I'd presuppose you'd need a clever combo to outdo the Abjurer, but again, no expert here.

Sometimes you want to outright influence the fates, almost always in your favor. Oddly enough, that means playing a Diviner, even though their job description is prediction, not manipulation.

Thinking about this purely in terms of the spell, Counterspell, though, have you considered a Sorcerer? If you built around literally being the best at counterspell, casting it more often falls into the Sorcerer's ability set fairly nicely. Maybe even the Warlock's, if short rests are abundant enough, as both classes have it on their list.

EDIT: Frankly, if you want to be more proactive, I'd take Abjuration wizard. It does the job of protecting people from harm nicely, and can counterspell if needed on top of that/alongside it.

So I was thinking about being able to dispel with confidence just a couple of times per day - enough to buy the part time to take down enough enemies to survive before something really nasty and spell related happens. Countering everything would be nice... but cautious shepherding of spell slots and good scouting would probably let a wizard be as effective as a warlock or sorcerer.

I love the diviner suggestion though. I had kind of skipped over that one but the ability to know what level of spell you can be certain of dispelling is a pretty good safety net. I can see the attraction in this. You also get to use its abilities on other things.

On the subject of such things a lucky halfling character might be mandatory to get this to work and maximise re-rolls!

[Millface]

lore bard in the long run.

but why would you build a character that revolves around counterspelling? you're pretty much going to end up in a losing battle if your goal is to prevent one single enemy from accomplishing things, especially if that enemy is not guaranteed to be present...

Think of this: Abjuration Wizard casts Animate Objects first round with his Action, Uses them to attack with his bonus action, counters the enemy caster with his Reaction.

Round 2 Bonus action attacks with Animate Objects, Action for firebolt, Reaction for Counter.

A counterspell build effectively shuts down an equal level enemy casters ACTIONS at the cost of your REACTION. That's a helluva trade if you ask me. 10/10 would build again.

This gets far, far better if you go Abjuration Wizard X/Warlock 2. Now you're using your action on super beefy Eldritch Blasts. It opens up more spell slots for your hyped Counterspells. Throw in AoA combo'd with your Abjuration Ward and melee drops at your feet while they try to stop you from shutting down their casters. Possibly the most useful party build in the game. You can lock out a caster almost completely while still dealing 10d4+60+4d10+20 at higher levels every. single. round.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

How much information do players get before attempting to counterspell?
Just that a spell is being cast? Or the school or name of the spell? What about the spell level and/or the level it's being cast at (if heightened)? Would it make a difference if they knew the spell themselves or not?

[Millface]

How much information do players get before attempting to counterspell?
Just that a spell is being cast? Or the school or name of the spell? What about the spell level and/or the level it's being cast at (if heightened)? Would it make a difference if they knew the spell themselves or not?

For this I use an Arcana check DC 10+ the spells level for spells they don't know. If you know it you can recognize the somatic movements and deduce what the spell is. You could use passive insight or perception for that, I suppose, but I don't make it that hard.

[Naanomi]

I generally just let people know what spell is being cast, unless Subtle Spell or maybe an Arcane Trickster is involved

[Millface]

I generally just let people know what spell is being cast, unless Subtle Spell or maybe an Arcane Trickster is involved

In a way this makes things a tad easy, but if your players don't exploit it then its no problem.

If I'm running a counterspell build you're going to have a bad time if you auto tell me every spell being cast, then I get to cherry pick where I drop my counters and at what level I cast them, opening up spell slots for me to do even more things on rounds where the caster is casting something that I don't care to counter.

Never underestimate how much of an impact it is having one player deal competitive damage while shutting down your encounter's most potent caster.

[Orbis Orboros]

In a way this makes things a tad easy, but if your players don't exploit it then its no problem.

If I'm running a counterspell build you're going to have a bad time if you auto tell me every spell being cast, then I get to cherry pick where I drop my counters and at what level I cast them, opening up spell slots for me to do even more things on rounds where the caster is casting something that I don't care to counter.

So what? If that's your build, then go for it. If the DM is really worried about your counterspells*, he can give his casters counterspell to counter your counterspell. Or just more casters (you can only counter one spell a turn).



*which should only concern him in a few encounters, like when the BBEG shows up

[Millface]

So what? If that's your build, then go for it. If the DM is really worried about your counterspells*, he can give his casters counterspell to counter your counterspell. Or just more casters (you can only counter one spell a turn).



*which should only concern him in a few encounters, like when the BBEG shows up

Oh trust me, I'm all for letting the players play and coming up with ways to make it work as the DM!

I just find it unrealistic that the Wizard knows the Cleric spell based on components without some kind of roll. How would he? Especially when foci are involved.

A Bard sings hold person, A Cleric prays it, the Wizard invokes it. Life is already easy for casters, I see no reason to automatically give them further knowledge unless it makes sense to.

[MrStabby]

In my campaign I run something a bit between this.

Passive knowledge arcana check of 10+ spell level to know the spell. +5DC if you can either not see or not hear the caster (also if no verbal or somatic components). There are only two caster so lowest arcana knowledge opts in or out of countering if one knows the spell and the other doesn't.

In practice this often means "counter what you don't know because it is high level" - especially if someone has a bonus.

[Naanomi]

Making people automatically recognize spells makes things harder on most casters; as more casters have people countering their spells over their life than they are countering spells; and if you build for something 'unoptimal' by most standards then go for it and be successful; is rather you do that then just focus endlessly on damage

I assume counter spells work by stopping the spell after its cast but before it takes effect; snuff the fireball out of the air in flight and so on... Many spells are pretty easy to ID on this model, especially if you assume some level of 'special effects' during casting even of hold person/charm/etc (without subtle spell of course)

[Millface]

Making people automatically recognize spells makes things harder on most casters; as more casters have people countering their spells over their life than they are countering spells; and if you build for something 'unoptimal' by most standards then go for it and be successful; is rather you do that then just focus endlessly on damage

I assume counter spells work by stopping the spell after its cast but before it takes effect; snuff the fireball out of the air in flight and so on... Many spells are pretty easy to ID on this model, especially if you assume some level of 'special effects' during casting even of hold person/charm/etc (without subtle spell of course)

As the DM I might use a counter or two, but I don't usually set up a caster in my encounter just to nullify the party's caster. If someone in the party wanted to set up a character to nullify MY casters on the other hand I would be totally ok with that.

Its something I'd love to see on the player side, but would probably never do from the DM side. It's effective, but its not fun. I'll find a different way to make the encounter challenging that doesn't just shut someone down so that they can't do anything. As the DM rule number 1 for me is make sure everybody is having fun. That rule trumps all other rules at the end of the day.

So for further discussion assume that I balance things based on the players side. From their side I like the realism of them having to take a split second study of the spell being cast to have the advantage of knowing what it is. It's not so much about balance, because you're right, your way makes it just as detrimental as beneficial. It's about making use of the PCs high INT or WIS scores to grant them an advantage that less intelligent casters might not have. That translates into suspense on the Arcana checks and satisfaction on successes, careful consideration and intelligent guesswork on a failure. All in all, it's just fun.

[SharkForce]

Think of this: Abjuration Wizard casts Animate Objects first round with his Action, Uses them to attack with his bonus action, counters the enemy caster with his Reaction.

Round 2 Bonus action attacks with Animate Objects, Action for firebolt, Reaction for Counter.

A counterspell build effectively shuts down an equal level enemy casters ACTIONS at the cost of your REACTION. That's a helluva trade if you ask me. 10/10 would build again.

This gets far, far better if you go Abjuration Wizard X/Warlock 2. Now you're using your action on super beefy Eldritch Blasts. It opens up more spell slots for your hyped Counterspells. Throw in AoA combo'd with your Abjuration Ward and melee drops at your feet while they try to stop you from shutting down their casters. Possibly the most useful party build in the game. You can lock out a caster almost completely while still dealing 10d4+60+4d10+20 at higher levels every. single. round.

and if there's no caster there, your class feature does nothing.

if there are two casters there, your class feature does a lot less because you only get to pick one spell to counter.

if there's a caster in every fight, you run out of spells awfully quick because they can afford to blow everything on one encounter.

if they have a caster that casts from out of counterspell range, the entire thing you built around is useless.

being able to counterspell is a good idea. being good at counterspelling is a good idea. designing your character around counterspell only? not as good of an idea.

[Millface]

and if there's no caster there, your class feature does nothing.

if there are two casters there, your class feature does a lot less because you only get to pick one spell to counter.

if there's a caster in every fight, you run out of spells awfully quick because they can afford to blow everything on one encounter.

if they have a caster that casts from out of counterspell range, the entire thing you built around is useless.

being able to counterspell is a good idea. being good at counterspelling is a good idea. designing your character around counterspell only? not as good of an idea.

The only difference between designing the character for countering and not is making it Abjuration, which is good in it's own right, and deciding whether or not your 6th level slot is best used to cast a wall of force or to negate one.

When I say "build around counterspell" I simply mean that the class uses a cantrip and concentration spell for most of it's damage while waiting to see what the enemy casters do. (beefing up EB is a good way to save slots, for example) If there aren't any enemy casters then you just use your slots differently. I'm not saying that ALL he ever does is counter, I'm saying that putting an emphasis on it can be very powerful. Using a 3rd level slot to counter an enemy cleric's Heal on the big bad is a better use of that slot than anything else in that scenario.

If there's none of that he's still a Wizard with a Shield who's good at many things. It's more of a playstyle choice than a "build" if we're being technical. The only thing about it that's buildy is the 2 levels in warlock to give you a damage-competitive cantrip in order to reserve slots for the eventuality of wanting to counter something.

The emphasis on Animate Objects, for example, is great damage in any scenario, but it serves a double purpose of being additional concentration harass on enemy casters. The build does everything well, it battles casters exceptionally, thats all.

[Person_Man]

Warlock is also worth between ECL 7+ because their spells auto-scale up to 5th level. So every Dispel Magic they cast is going to be out of a 4th or 5th level slot. That's superior to having to make an ability check, since it will succeed automatically against most spells coming from ECL appropriate enemies.

Trickery Cleric is also worth considering. They get Counterspell added to their list from their Domain, and they have access to the Enhance Ability spell, which grants them Advantage on checks. They also have healing magic, and if they don't have Enhance Ability cast they often have Bless cast (improved Saves/To-Hit) or some protective buff, so even if they don't succeed in their Counterspell, they're usually better situated to with the results. (Though its noteworthy that the Bard also has Enhance Ability, and can cherry pick any spell they want to a limited degree).

Neither option is "the best" at counterspelling. But both are very solid options.

[MrStabby]

being able to counterspell is a good idea. being good at counterspelling is a good idea. designing your character around counterspell only? not as good of an idea.

I don't know about this last bit. I suppose it may depend on how much you can actually gimp yourself by doing it? If you take a warlock and add enough bard to get jack of all trades (2 levels) you suffer a bit (but maybe not too much) but you can get a good action with eldritch blast, short rest recharging spell slots (for whatever, not just counterspell) and a bard bevy of normal spell slots. Sure you miss out on high level spells but you get a lot of other abilities along the way, not to mention having the versatility of a lot more spells known.

I just cant actually see any build that would focus on countering spells that could avoid picking up enough other stuff along the way to make a viable character.

[Millface]

I don't know about this last bit. I suppose it may depend on how much you can actually gimp yourself by doing it? If you take a warlock and add enough bard to get jack of all trades (2 levels) you suffer a bit (but maybe not too much) but you can get a good action with eldritch blast, short rest recharging spell slots (for whatever, not just counterspell) and a bard bevy of normal spell slots. Sure you miss out on high level spells but you get a lot of other abilities along the way, not to mention having the versatility of a lot more spells known.

I just cant actually see any build that would focus on countering spells that could avoid picking up enough other stuff along the way to make a viable character.

You don't need Jack of all Trades if you go Abjuration though. Yeah, you come into your own a little later, but you're still a Wizard until then, and you can't be a Wizard and be gimp at the same time unless you're completely daft. :P

Keep in mind that up-casting counterspell auto-succeeds for higher level stuff. You don't just counter everything in sight, you pick and choose based on how much of an impact the opposing spell will have against your particular party. All Wizards should do this to a point, The difference is that this character will be better prepared for that scenario in the long run.

[MrStabby]

You don't need Jack of all Trades if you go Abjuration though. Yeah, you come into your own a little later, but you're still a Wizard until then, and you can't be a Wizard and be gimp at the same time unless you're completely daft. :P

Keep in mind that up-casting counterspell auto-succeeds for higher level stuff. You don't just counter everything in sight, you pick and choose based on how much of an impact the opposing spell will have against your particular party. All Wizards should do this to a point, The difference is that this character will be better prepared for that scenario in the long run.

Yeah, sorry. I was trying to illustrate a non-intuitive thing that someone might do to try and get better countermagic and to show it was pretty decent still.

[SharkForce]

I'm just saying that I don't think it's generally a good choice to specialize to be awesome in one rather niche area and decent at everything else when you could be awesome at lots of things and decent in that niche area.

I'd much rather be the guy who's making the enemy scramble to try and counter the bad things I'm going to do to them, than the guy who has to scramble to keep them from doing bad things to me.

[Naanomi]

I'm just saying that I don't think it's generally a good choice to specialize to be awesome in one rather niche area and decent at everything else when you could be awesome at lots of things and decent in that niche area.
In general, true, but lots of fun concepts/characters can be found in intentionally and carefully overspecializing

[Thisguy_]

...lots of fun concepts/characters can be found in intentionally and carefully overspecializing

You just described every character I've ever built. I made a baker once. I built him, PC levels and all, around baking, but his damage per round turned out nicely (with archery and Sharpshooter), and he's loads of fun to play. I like where this Wizard is going: "You don't get to cast spells." "But I wanna!" "No."

[Naanomi]

I'd build it as a lore bard inquisitor... Expertise in arcane and intimidation (later perception and investigation), knows ways of making you tell where your coven hides; and absolutely will not permit a witch to live

[MaxWilson]

In a way this makes things a tad easy, but if your players don't exploit it then its no problem.

If I'm running a counterspell build you're going to have a bad time if you auto tell me every spell being cast, then I get to cherry pick where I drop my counters and at what level I cast them, opening up spell slots for me to do even more things on rounds where the caster is casting something that I don't care to counter.

Never underestimate how much of an impact it is having one player deal competitive damage while shutting down your encounter's most potent caster.

It's not that easy to shut down an enemy caster. Counterspell has a range of only 60 feet, so unless somebody is grappling the enemy wizard he can just retreat to 61 feet and cast away. That is, unless the Counterspeller is a sorcerer with Distant Spell... in that case the enemy spellcaster is in for a nasty surprise because the sorc can Counterspell at up to 120 feet. :)

[Naanomi]

Sorcerer counterspellers have some funny options... Subtle Counterspell = very confused wizard

[SharkForce]

It's not that easy to shut down an enemy caster. Counterspell has a range of only 60 feet, so unless somebody is grappling the enemy wizard he can just retreat to 61 feet and cast away. That is, unless the Counterspeller is a sorcerer with Distant Spell... in that case the enemy spellcaster is in for a nasty surprise because the sorc can Counterspell at up to 120 feet. :)

the problem there is that then you're a sorcerer with distant spell, which goes right back into the "don't make major sacrifices to be good at a very niche concept" problem.

grabbing 3+ levels of sorcerer will delay your good stuff even more than the 2 warlock splash someone suggested (which is painful enough as it is), and about the only thing it adds to a character is 2 metamagic techniques. and distant, well, it might not be the worst metamagic technique (it's hard to say, but i think that might go to extend because the main reason you might consider extend is the times where it explicitly doesn't work), but it certainly doesn't live up to WotC's recommended "don't add metamagics that aren't worth taking" advice in their UA article on homebrewing stuff.

[Millface]

I'm just saying that I don't think it's generally a good choice to specialize to be awesome in one rather niche area and decent at everything else when you could be awesome at lots of things and decent in that niche area.

I'd much rather be the guy who's making the enemy scramble to try and counter the bad things I'm going to do to them, than the guy who has to scramble to keep them from doing bad things to me.

Am I the only one who considers Animate Objects + Eldritch Blast every round to be roughly enough out put to be considered dangerous?

Plus any round the enemy caster is out of range or casts a spell I don't care about I can drop a bad thing myself.

I've been playing this and it's really not as shackled as a couple of you seem to think it will be. Or perhaps we have a misunderstanding. I've said it and I'll say it again, making sure you have the counterspells and that they are buffed from Abjuration doesn't mean that all you do is counter spells. Far from it.


It's not that easy to shut down an enemy caster. Counterspell has a range of only 60 feet, so unless somebody is grappling the enemy wizard he can just retreat to 61 feet and cast away. That is, unless the Counterspeller is a sorcerer with Distant Spell... in that case the enemy spellcaster is in for a nasty surprise because the sorc can Counterspell at up to 120 feet. :)

If they want to move to 61 ft. and cut off half their spell list that has a range of less than 60 feet that's fine. I'll use that counter slot on something else, and thank you for putting one hand behind your back. Enjoy my 10 animated dinner forks in your face in the mean time.

[SharkForce]

Am I the only one who considers Animate Objects + Eldritch Blast every round to be roughly enough out put to be considered dangerous?

Plus any round the enemy caster is out of range or casts a spell I don't care about I can drop a bad thing myself.

I've been playing this and it's really not as shackled as a couple of you seem to think it will be. Or perhaps we have a misunderstanding. I've said it and I'll say it again, making sure you have the counterspells and that they are buffed from Abjuration doesn't mean that all you do is counter spells. Far from it.



If they want to move to 61 ft. and cut off half their spell list that has a range of less than 60 feet that's fine. I'll use that counter slot on something else, and thank you for putting one hand behind your back. Enjoy my 10 animated dinner forks in your face in the mean time.

that comes online at level 9. if you splash 3 levels of sorcerer for distant spell, level 12. if you also sacrifice 2 levels for eldritch blast (and also the need to have a high charisma), level 14.

being an abjurer is fine. you're still a regular wizard. but every level you take away from your primary spellcasting class is delaying your best abilities even more. when you sacrifice access to your higher level spells on a pure caster, you are typically trading something awesome for something that is kinda mediocre, especially if you're going to get into those very high levels. damage is certainly nice, but a level 14 full caster can bring so much more to a group than dealing damage and being somewhat annoying to enemy casters when they're around.

remember the ten commandments of optimization: thou shalt not give up caster levels (this should be amended for 5th edition slightly, as once you're level 17 you aren't giving up higher level spells any more and your level 17-20 abilities may or may not be worth more than the level 1-3 abilities of another class, especially if that class progresses your spellcasting slots).

certainly, there is room to be less than perfectly optimized and still be effective. but when you start throwing around huge delays to getting your key abilities, you do need to consider whether what you're getting is worth what you're giving up to get it.

[MaxWilson]

the problem there is that then you're a sorcerer with distant spell, which goes right back into the "don't make major sacrifices to be good at a very niche concept" problem.

grabbing 3+ levels of sorcerer will delay your good stuff even more than the 2 warlock splash someone suggested (which is painful enough as it is), and about the only thing it adds to a character is 2 metamagic techniques. and distant, well, it might not be the worst metamagic technique (it's hard to say, but i think that might go to extend because the main reason you might consider extend is the times where it explicitly doesn't work), but it certainly doesn't live up to WotC's recommended "don't add metamagics that aren't worth taking" advice in their UA article on homebrewing stuff.

I wasn't proposing a sorc splash. I was talking about a full sorcerer or sorlock.

[Millface]

that comes online at level 9. if you splash 3 levels of sorcerer for distant spell, level 12. if you also sacrifice 2 levels for eldritch blast (and also the need to have a high charisma), level 14.

being an abjurer is fine. you're still a regular wizard. but every level you take away from your primary spellcasting class is delaying your best abilities even more. when you sacrifice access to your higher level spells on a pure caster, you are typically trading something awesome for something that is kinda mediocre, especially if you're going to get into those very high levels. damage is certainly nice, but a level 14 full caster can bring so much more to a group than dealing damage and being somewhat annoying to enemy casters when they're around.

remember the ten commandments of optimization: thou shalt not give up caster levels (this should be amended for 5th edition slightly, as once you're level 17 you aren't giving up higher level spells any more and your level 17-20 abilities may or may not be worth more than the level 1-3 abilities of another class, especially if that class progresses your spellcasting slots).

certainly, there is room to be less than perfectly optimized and still be effective. but when you start throwing around huge delays to getting your key abilities, you do need to consider whether what you're getting is worth what you're giving up to get it.

Definitely not on board with the sorc splash. But Warlock 2 is a commonly agreed upon good optimization choice for wizards and sorcerers. A level 12 wizard/2 Warlock might not get one level 7 spell, but he gets infinite +cha eldritch blasts and devil's sight, which many agree to be better. That's the only required dip for the build, and is one many would take regardless of their tendency to counterspell. If the build needed to take things that you wouldn't normally take just for Counter's sake, you're correct in your assessment that it would be bad. As it is, its just an additional way to play a good build.

[SharkForce]

I wasn't proposing a sorc splash. I was talking about a full sorcerer or sorlock.

those are both decent builds, but nothing special as far as counterspell is concerned. I definitely wouldn't give up half of your metamagics on distant spell though. you only get a few metamagic choices, and only 2 of them come early. distant spell is not remotely close to being good enough to be worth choosing over the other options.


Definitely not on board with the sorc splash. But Warlock 2 is a commonly agreed upon good optimization choice for wizards and sorcerers. A level 12 wizard/2 Warlock might not get one level 7 spell, but he gets infinite +cha eldritch blasts and devil's sight, which many agree to be better. That's the only required dip for the build, and is one many would take regardless of their tendency to counterspell. If the build needed to take things that you wouldn't normally take just for Counter's sake, you're correct in your assessment that it would be bad. As it is, its just an additional way to play a good build.

warlock 2 is not what I would describe as a commonly agreed on good choice for wizards. it is sometimes suggested for abjurers purely as a means of quickly filling up your ward with mage armour spam, but I wouldn't describe it as being a common choice for any other wizard (high enough cha to make good use of eldritch blast and agonizing blast are not common in wizard builds).

it is, however, a fairly common recommended sorcerer splash, although still not without cost.

but it isn't about what you lose at 20 (although you'd actually be missing out on 2 level 3 spells per short rest for a wizard, which could be counterspell and dispel magic, which is kinda relevant for someone who wants to counterspell a lot). it's about what you delay on the way to 20. splash 2 warlock levels early and when you could be throwing fireball you only have shatter. when you could have animate objects, you only have conjure minor elementals. when you could have wall of force, you only have wall of fire. when you could have wish, you only have clone. when you could get unlimited use of 2 spells of your choice (one level 1, one level 2) you are 2 long levels off and by the time you get it (if you ever get there at all) the campaign is over. all the way through you'll have fewer spell slots (except for level 1 slots) as well, though that isn't as big of a deal as delaying your high level spells.

[Millface]

those are both decent builds, but nothing special as far as counterspell is concerned. I definitely wouldn't give up half of your metamagics on distant spell though. you only get a few metamagic choices, and only 2 of them come early. distant spell is not remotely close to being good enough to be worth choosing over the other options.



warlock 2 is not what I would describe as a commonly agreed on good choice for wizards. it is sometimes suggested for abjurers purely as a means of quickly filling up your ward with mage armour spam, but I wouldn't describe it as being a common choice for any other wizard (high enough cha to make good use of eldritch blast and agonizing blast are not common in wizard builds).

it is, however, a fairly common recommended sorcerer splash, although still not without cost.

but it isn't about what you lose at 20 (although you'd actually be missing out on 2 level 3 spells per short rest for a wizard, which could be counterspell and dispel magic, which is kinda relevant for someone who wants to counterspell a lot). it's about what you delay on the way to 20. splash 2 warlock levels early and when you could be throwing fireball you only have shatter. when you could have animate objects, you only have conjure minor elementals. when you could have wall of force, you only have wall of fire. when you could have wish, you only have clone. when you could get unlimited use of 2 spells of your choice (one level 1, one level 2) you are 2 long levels off and by the time you get it (if you ever get there at all) the campaign is over. all the way through you'll have fewer spell slots (except for level 1 slots) as well, though that isn't as big of a deal as delaying your high level spells.

This is the most articulate argument against the build I've seen so far. I never missed the higher level spells though. After I hit 5 as wizard I did warlock 1 and started comboing the Abjuration Ward with Upcasted AoA (since casters are less frequent/deadly at this level). Then at warlock 2 between 4th level AoA being able to take 34 points before failing and dishing out 20 points per hit I was a beast in melee. Eldritch Blast/Fireball for martial range or Eldritch blast/Counters in encounters with a big bad caster.

The build has alot to it, it actually started as a way to abuse AoA with the Abjuration Ward. Admittedly only good in melee. The build has several different "modes" that you switch around what you do depending on the encounter at hand. It wasn't until 11+ that I started really needing to be in "Counter Mode" (AO + Eldritch Blast) most of the time, because 6th level spells are where you run into stuff you just really don't want hitting your party. So that mode coming online at 11 really wasn't an issue. I had plenty of ways to be potent before then. It was mostly an accident that the build ended up being exceptionally potent when battling other casters.