Shaman Homebew That Needs Brain Storming!

[Silverolivia]

Hello! While this isn't my first homebrew, it is the first that I've actually put on the internet. And I need brain storming! :) My friend recommended I come here and said that the people here were pretty cool. And considering one of the last places I went to was 4chan (his idea NOT MINE!!) the bar is pretty low here, guys :p

So my idea for this was the spiritual outcast or hermit. All cultures have them (voodoo doctors, the wise medicine man, the refeki's of the savanna, living isolated, but not alone because they speak to the spirits of the world around them) and because of this, and because I wanted this to be as close to a complete, stand alone class, I build it from the ground up.

I looked to the classes that already exist, and saw a flexibility. This blank slate to project the hero of your choosing on. Like the ranger class, it could be Robin Hood your thinking of, or maybe Strider (from LOTR).

So I decided to take the cleric/druid class and mold them to the bones of the warlock. I felt this method would give the player the greatest flexibility and customization.

there are 3 totem animals that give a flavor to the shaman, and two traditions that are basically: a caster with a bigger spell list to pull upon, OR a caster that uses it's Familiar to fight the battles. The Familiar path takes heavily from the Druid platform. The idea being that instead of YOU doing all this cool animal stuff, it's your animal friend that does it.

After my past ventures on the internet it is clear that the problem is the expanded spell list and invocation list. But what can I do about it while keeping that customisation AND being balanced.

Please while reading this remember that I am in the final stages of being done, so no it's not finished. I just need to tackle this spell list problem. And that, While it is on the bones of a warlock (which is a fighter/caster mix class), I wanted to shy away from the fighter aspect and go just for a pure caster who draws on the energy of the ambient spirits for help. And generally not a god or the weave.

No pressure! :p And also thanks for reading and giving your two cents!

Below is the link to the published google doc.Here! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DuCnSttRcX5FLVyLX7H81zTX28Ti2Nx88aKGXdb2VNQ/pub)

[Amnoriath]

You need to shave a lot off. As it stands you have combined the Pact of the Blade as well as the Tome into 1 pacr with double the spell slots and explicitly scaling invocations. You also either have very weird exceptions and typos all over the place like:
1. Why does the Great Bear have 4 5th level bonus spells that are elemental as well as Gaseous Form and other spells that have little to do with the archetype.
2. Having 3 at will spells and 2 single use spells in a single invocation is way out of design and balance.
3. Why does the Buffalo's 6th level feature is a Hold Monster spell that infers you can use a higher level slot to do it to more target?
4. The snakes cantrip is a blatant copy of Eldritch Blast
The list goes on. If you are going to make a new class don't out class others unless it is a fix.

[Silverolivia]

You need to shave a lot off. As it stands you have combined the Pact of the Blade as well as the Tome into 1 pacr with double the spell slots and explicitly scaling invocations.
I can kinda see where you are getting this from. In that one of the later level invocations allows for the staff to become a magical weapon for the purposes of resistances. I added this because in the warlock version there are two invocations for pact of Chains and Blade, but only one for Tome. I felt that the inconsistencies needed to be evened out since I took out a pact all-together and it was the one with the fewest invocations. I then gave each new "pact" 3 invocations. basically cutting the special pact invocation down by one.

There are actually fewer invocations in the shaman list then in the warlock list.


1. Why does the Great Bear have 4 5th level bonus spells that are elemental as well as Gaseous Form and other spells that have little to do with the archetype.

Ahh, yes. That was a tough call. The Bear totem was an interesting challenge. I had to really search stretch the definition of "Defense" to make sure they all had the same number of spells, all at the same and correct level, and that they all fit into the "feeling" of that totem. And the Bear totem suffered for it. And I would be pleased if you can find more appropriate spells then hold person or gaseous form! That are the correct level, that make sense for the totem and, (most importantly) are something a dude who's "Magic powers" are basically borrowed from the spirits around him. THAT is the most challenging. Because Magic missile, bigby's hand, major image? NOT APPROPRIATE. So finding that perfect spell is really hard.

And as far as the 4 spells at the end. They are a very specific spell, that basically just adds an extra 4 spells to your KNOWN spells, and one to your daily cast allowance. And they are out of the elemental Evil expansion. At the beginning of the day you can pick the element you have via the spell you cast and the party has advantage on that damage type for the day. It's actually not that powerful, and the shaman is actually at a disadvantage because he can only cast ONE of them ONCE per long rest, where as a mage who new them all, could cast, like, what... 4 of them at max level? It would consume his spell slots, but it would be more powerful.


2. Having 3 at will spells and 2 single use spells in a single invocation is way out of design and balance.
Humm... I see what your saying here, I guess I could split them up however my thinking for them was 1.) they fit in a theme and 2.) you can't use most of them until you reach a certain level.


3. Why does the Buffalo's 6th level feature is a Hold Monster spell that infers you can use a higher level slot to do it to more target?
I don't understand the question of this one. Do you mean the feature, "A better Grip" ? If I understand correctly your asking if it is an additional Hold Person spell or is an upgrade? One is based off of the spell hold creature the other off the spell hold person. Would you recommend something different? I'm always up for ideas.


4. The snakes cantrip is a blatant copy of Eldritch Blast
Yes! This was done on purpose! Most of this class is based, literally straight out of the book, for warlocks. All of the wording of the invocations are the same (albeit I changed what a lot of them do) and the way the whole of the shaman (like WHEN they can do stuff) is the same. And since the shaman is based off the FRAMEWORK of the warlock, and I wanted a spell that wasn't over-powered. I decided to just re-skin the cantrip as well as A LOT of the other framework of the mother-class. My goal for that was to be able to get an idea of what was over-powered in this and what is not. Hence why a lot of my decisions seem strange. But I can point out in the Players handbook where it reoccurs again and again for balance.

[Amnoriath]

I can kinda see where you are getting this from. In that one of the later level invocations allows for the staff to become a magical weapon for the purposes of resistances. I added this because in the warlock version there are two invocations for pact of Chains and Blade, but only one for Tome. I felt that the inconsistencies needed to be evened out since I took out a pact all-together and it was the one with the fewest invocations. I then gave each new "pact" 3 invocations. basically cutting the special pact invocation down by one.

There are actually fewer invocations in the shaman list then in the warlock list.



Ahh, yes. That was a tough call. The Bear totem was an interesting challenge. I had to really search stretch the definition of "Defense" to make sure they all had the same number of spells, all at the same and correct level, and that they all fit into the "feeling" of that totem. And the Bear totem suffered for it. And I would be pleased if you can find more appropriate spells then hold person or gaseous form! That are the correct level, that make sense for the totem and, (most importantly) are something a dude who's "Magic powers" are basically borrowed from the spirits around him. THAT is the most challenging. Because Magic missile, bigby's hand, major image? NOT APPROPRIATE. So finding that perfect spell is really hard.

And as far as the 4 spells at the end. They are a very specific spell, that basically just adds an extra 4 spells to your KNOWN spells, and one to your daily cast allowance. And they are out of the elemental Evil expansion. At the beginning of the day you can pick the element you have via the spell you cast and the party has advantage on that damage type for the day. It's actually not that powerful, and the shaman is actually at a disadvantage because he can only cast ONE of them ONCE per long rest, where as a mage who new them all, could cast, like, what... 4 of them at max level? It would consume his spell slots, but it would be more powerful.


Humm... I see what your saying here, I guess I could split them up however my thinking for them was 1.) they fit in a theme and 2.) you can't use most of them until you reach a certain level.


I don't understand the question of this one. Do you mean the feature, "A better Grip" ? If I understand correctly your asking if it is an additional Hold Person spell or is an upgrade? One is based off of the spell hold creature the other off the spell hold person. Would you recommend something different? I'm always up for ideas.


Yes! This was done on purpose! Most of this class is based, literally straight out of the book, for warlocks. All of the wording of the invocations are the same (albeit I changed what a lot of them do) and the way the whole of the shaman (like WHEN they can do stuff) is the same. And since the shaman is based off the FRAMEWORK of the warlock, and I wanted a spell that wasn't over-powered. I decided to just re-skin the cantrip as well as A LOT of the other framework of the mother-class. My goal for that was to be able to get an idea of what was over-powered in this and what is not. Hence why a lot of my decisions seem strange. But I can point out in the Players handbook where it reoccurs again and again for balance.
1. Except that the combinations have the same benefits plus another's on almost double the chassis of a Warlock. The Pact of the Tome even though it only had one it is the best invocation to get and arguably the most versatile feature in the game. Despite that Pact of the Blade still had more damage with the right combinations and even the Chain had certain tricks the Tome just couldn't fully replicate. While the Tome invocation could have been nerfed and given another invocation they have specialties in which others don't infringe upon.
2. But your invocations are vastly more powerful and with more in them making this better in almost every way.
3. Yes, I know about them but they don't do what you say they do. In a way each of those spells turns you into a buffed up elemental giving immunities and/or resistances as well as attack options and movement options. They are also 6th level. Still why does this need the exception to have 4? Also what does the Great Bear have anything to do with specifically fire, cold, stone, and wind?
4. But nothing at will scales by adding more at will spells. Even in 3.5 those invocations didn't scale like that.
5. It means that one, it isn't very clear on what is the cost of increasing it. Two, why does it need to be increased in the first place? You are giving a free 5th level spell at 6th level every short rest. What is the point in jamming in something in which only your Spirit Arcanum could answer?
6. The point is why are you making something that is a Warlock+++? Why aren't you making a Patron that fits nature better if you want to keep the Warlock class so badly. It isn't unheard of at all to make homebrew invocations that are detailed to Patrons only. If you are making another class it must significantly different which must mean that it is weaker in some key areas than another.

[PotatoGolem]

Just from the table, this is silly unbalanced. Cast 8 9th level spells on a short rest? No. No other class gets more than one spell per day of level 8 and 9, and full casters only get up to 2 level 6-7 spells. And it has double the warlock's spell slots. This needs some heavy nerfing. Warlock can be a good base for a shaman, but use the same spell slots and spell level table. Warlocks are already good, this is just ludicrously powerful.

And on further reading, you ALSO have the warlock's high level spell feature. Why? They're casting 9th level spells out of regular slots, they don't need even more. Seriously, tone this way down.

And your invocations are way stronger than a warlock's. This class is just a significantly better warlock in every way, and is completely unbalanced.

[Silverolivia]

1. Except that the combinations have the same benefits plus another's on almost double the chassis of a Warlock. The Pact of the Tome even though it only had one it is the best invocation to get and arguably the most versatile feature in the game. Despite that Pact of the Blade still had more damage with the right combinations and even the Chain had certain tricks the Tome just couldn't fully replicate. While the Tome invocation could have been nerfed and given another invocation they have specialties in which others don't infringe upon.
See now, I felt the exact OPPOSITE when I played my warlock. I went pact of blades and found it profoundly overpowered. I think the idea here is that, 1.) yes I have already stated that it is to powerful and that I need to cut the whole thing down, not add to it. But before I commit to a fix, I want to get some brainstorming in. And 2.) that you have expressed EXACTLY what I was trying to go for. That two completely different people believe that X + Y is more powerful then Y+Z. You and I can see the strength's in both options. And there in-lies the fun and flexibility I was talking about before.

So, with that in mind, what specifically would you recommend here. There's all sorts of fixes that can be done. Even to the extent of making the Shaman less caster and more fighter alla the warlock build, or make the shaman a sorcerer re-skinned, to a brand new idea i haven't thought of. That was the reason I brought this here, to hear your ideas! ^.^


2. But your invocations are vastly more powerful and with more in them making this better in almost every way.

I see what your saying. So we need to make the shaman have more negatives, while reducing the spells. I really liked the idea of having the spells be invocations to help give greater flexibility and customization... maybe make all the spells into once perday invocations, and increase the invocation list, but only allow the shaman 4 invocations. And take the special "pact" invocations out to make them innates with the traditions, or the have to choose and either/or kind of thing at certain levels.... How does that sound?

Then even at 20th level, the shaman would only have 4 spells per day.

Or maybe have the invocations tiered? Like have 5 spirit invocations at levels 1 - 14 then at level 15 'Grand invocations' opens up and you can have 4 of them, but the number you can use goes up with levels, so at 20th you'd have 5 spirit invocations and 4 grand invocations?


3. Yes, I know about them but they don't do what you say they do. In a way each of those spells turns you into a buffed up elemental giving immunities and/or resistances as well as attack options and movement options. They are also 6th level. Still why does this need the exception to have 4? Also what does the Great Bear have anything to do with specifically fire, cold, stone, and wind?

This was the idea. That the shaman, much like the cleric it is based on, is a buff/hex machine, but they cannot heal (unless they take the healing path), nor do a lot of damage. So maybe really take out all the spells that do damage? That will certainly take out like, 90% of the spells. And then the question of what constitutes and damage spell must be raised....


4. But nothing at will scales by adding more at will spells. Even in 3.5 those invocations didn't scale like that.

I'm not sure, but I think I only added 3 extra at wills (if you count the animist ability.) I tried really hard to follow the warlock guidlines when it came to the invocations. In that when there was an 'At will' I made sure to replace it with a spell that was not only more fitting for a shaman, but also the same level, and more importantly, also the same KIND of spell... i.e. replace levitate with feather fall. Which I was actually thinking of making more fluffy by saying something like, at will you call upon the air spirits to help you drift in the air... or something like that.


5. It means that one, it isn't very clear on what is the cost of increasing it. Two, why does it need to be increased in the first place? You are giving a free 5th level spell at 6th level every short rest. What is the point in jamming in something in which only your Spirit Arcanum could answer?

Which spell are you talking about, I thought I made it so you can only cast one spell from any invocation after a long rest? If I goofed and missed something then I definitely need to change that!


6. The point is why are you making something that is a Warlock+++? Why aren't you making a Patron that fits nature better if you want to keep the Warlock class so badly. It isn't unheard of at all to make homebrew invocations that are detailed to Patrons only. If you are making another class it must significantly different which must mean that it is weaker in some key areas than another.
It's not a warlock though. There is no "arcane" anything. All the magic comes from an outside source. Like... humm... the warlock gets straight up mage-like magic, where they are literally bending the universe to their will, while the shaman cajoles the ambient energy around him to create something. Or carefully weaves a spell using the energy inherent in all things to make dissonant energy like a hex?? I don't know if that makes sense.

Anyway, what would you suggest in this case? Should I cut up the spells and make most of them into abilities that are more like rituals, where you have to spend X many more hours doing it, and even more if you want it to be more powerful? Like, as you level you can spend more time weaving this energy (as if you were actually casting the spell?)

Or maybe I should scrap the whole thing and make a brand new caster that has a lot of time consuming abilities, that uses a staff for spells and a familiar for protection...? This is a disheartening idea, but I could do it.

[Silverolivia]

this is silly unbalanced. Cast 8 9th level spells on a short rest? No. No other class gets more than one spell per day of level 8 and 9, and full casters only get up to 2 level 6-7 spells. Warlock can be a good base for a shaman, but use the same spell slots and spell level table.
Yes, all very good points! So, which ones are the ones with short rests? Some one else mentioned this, and like I said I copied most of the wording (will a little more clarification on a few points) from the warlock.

At any rate, this was way I needed some ideas! I was really stuck on where to go and instead of getting frustrated I decided to come here to see what some outside sources could come up with. Even if it's a total over-haul. I'm really digging a previous thought of making all the spells once-a-day abilities and then putting them in tiers. It will basically be rewriting the whole shaman spell book, but I could do it.


And your invocations are way stronger than a warlock's. This class is just a significantly better warlock in every way, and is completely unbalanced.
Yes, I did this because the warlock is a fighter hybrid, and while I liked the versatility, I wanted to make the shaman more caster then fighter. The only thing that I did to give them survivability is a Familiar that has druid like qualities (since this is based off a cleric/druid) OR a staff that at level 15 (which is really late in game) becomes a little more viable when hitting a creature that is magical. This doesn't seem over powered like the pact of the blade, where you can have your weapon take any form and you are proficient in it. couple that with the duel-wield feature and your kinda overpowered as a fighter. But that is a discussion for another time.

It is definitely better as a caster, but that was the idea, that they don't generally (or shouldn't be) engaging in physical fights, whereas the warlock could go toe to toe with a monster. (And I have with mine in the past)

So with that in mind, how do you think I can make this class more like a caster and less like a fighter?