Invocation help needed

[nonsi]

Ok, so I got this cool invocation, which I really like:


Facial Blank (Lesser; 4th)
You can erase features of a creature's face, removing any sign that they were ever there.
You can remove eyes, ears, mouth or nose.
The invoker may apply 1 erasure per 4 levels, treating an eye, ear or nose as a single application and the mouth counting as two organs.
The target must make a successful Fort save or have the selected feature(s) removed and covered with flesh and skin.
The removed feature(s) return to normal after 24 hours, or via the usage of Break Enchantment, Limited Wish, Wish or Miracle spell.
Removing one eye gives the victim a -2 penalty on attack rolls and Spot checks. Removing both eyes renders the target blind.
Removing one ear gives the victim a -2 penalty on all Listen checks. Removing both ears renders the target deaf.
Removing the mouth makes it impossible for the target to speak, eat or drink.
A target without a nose has no sense of smell.
Removing both the mouth and nose makes it impossible for the target to breathe, subjecting it to possible suffocation. A heal skill check vs. DC 20 allows the performance of a tracheotomy to allow the victim to breathe, but causes 2d3 points of Con damage (DC 25 for self treatment).
Once targeted, regardless of the save result, a creature cannot be affected by this invocation for the next 24 hours.



But........



One thing I don't want, is spamming of this invocation - less for balance issues and more for thematic reasons.
It's supposed to be a jaw-dropping effect and spamming it would kill the atmosphere to some extent.

One thing I was considering is allowing a save vs. each organ erasure, but I'm not sure about that one. If I do that, then the mouth would still get only one save.
Another thought that came to mind was to make it a once-per-hour invocation (or once per day?)
Another option is that an invoker cannot have this invocation active simultaneously on more than one target.
Lastly, I could make it come with a price to the invoker that would hurt for a short while, but nothing comes to mind ATM.


So, should it be one of the above? (which one)
Any other ideas?


I'm leaning toward the 3rd option, but I would like to hear others' opinions.

[Network]

Removing both the mouth and nose makes it impossible for the target to breathe, subjecting it to possible suffocation. A heal skill check vs. DC 20 allows the performance of a tracheotomy to allow the victim to breathe, but causes 2d3 points of Con damage (DC 25 for self treatment).
I feel it would be less risky to just dig a new nostril. I mean, the nose is probably still hollowed, isn't it? Digging a nostril should deal some damage, but this would be normal damage, not Constitution damage.

One thing I don't want, is spamming of this invocation - less for balance issues and more for thematic reasons.
It's supposed to be a jaw-dropping effect and spamming it would kill the atmosphere to some extent.
The invocation is already 1/day per target. What do you want more?


One thing I was considering is allowing a save vs. each organ erasure, but I'm not sure about that one. If I do that, then the mouth would still get only one save.
That could work, I think.

Another thought that came to mind was to make it a once-per-hour invocation (or once per day?)
Another option is that an invoker cannot have this invocation active simultaneously on more than one target.
If you did these things it would feel less like a warlock invocation and more like a spell. The one thing that sets warlocks apart from other casters is their ability to use all invocations at-will, so if you remove that the class becomes too mechanically similar to other classes, IMHO. And a save-or-die at 12th level (minimum level to affect mouth + nose) is not that unusual, except almost all the spells that do it have either the death, fear, or mind-affecting descriptor (which makes them irrelevant by level 8, 12, and 16, respectively), with a few 9th-level exceptions.

Lastly, I could make it come with a price to the invoker that would hurt for a short while, but nothing comes to mind ATM.
This one could work, if the price is not too heavy to pay (no need to punish warlocks more; they are already low on versatility).

I'm leaning toward the 3rd option, but I would like to hear others' opinions.
I'd say the 1st and 4th option are the only ones that make thematical sense with the warlock.

[Amechra]

Reduce the range to Touch. You wipe your hand across their face and their orifices begin to seal up.

Have it only work once on a given creature per 24 hours, if you don't want it spammed. Though spamming is what Warlocks do, so it almost feels like you want to be making something more like a Witch Hex.

[nonsi]

Ok, I'm convinced that the targeted once / 24 hours restriction is enough.

Also, now I think that "De-Orifice" sounds better than "Facial Blank".


Anyway, I have some additions for the OP description:


De-Orifice (Lesser; 4th)
You can erase features of a creature's face, removing any sign that they were ever there.
You can remove eyes, ears, nose or mouth.
The warlock may apply 1 erasure per 4 levels, treating an eye, ear or nose as a single application and the mouth counting as two organs.
The target must make a successful Fort save or have the selected feature(s) removed and covered with flesh and skin.
The removed feature(s) return to normal after 24 hours, or via the usage of Break Enchantment, Limited Wish, Wish or Miracle spell.
Removing one eye gives the victim a -2 penalty on attack rolls and Spot checks. Removing both eyes renders the target blind.
Removing one ear gives the victim a -2 penalty on all Listen checks. Removing both ears renders the target deaf.
Removing the mouth makes it impossible for the target to speak, eat or drink.
A target without a nose has no sense of smell.
Removing both the mouth and nose makes it impossible for the target to breathe, subjecting it to possible suffocation. A heal skill check vs. DC 20 allows the performance of a tracheotomy to allow the victim to breathe, but causes 2d3 points of Con damage (DC 25 for self-treatment).
Once targeted, regardless of the save result, a creature cannot be affected by this invocation for the next 24 hours.
When succumbing to the effects of this invocation for the first time, a target that's not immune emotional manipulation automatically loses all actions until the end of its next turn.
Special: Though not really having game mechanics implications, with DM's approval, this invocation may also affect pelvic orifices. In some cases, this could cause penalties due to not being able to expel bodily waste (... and could have other implications :smallbiggrin:).
Special: Starting at level 16, any and all bodily orifices may be sealed (or selectively excluded) simultaneously.



Oh, and tracheotomy was just one option.
I'll leave other options in the hands of the DM.

[Network]

Reduce the range to Touch. You wipe your hand across their face and their orifices begin to seal up..
I second this.

When succumbing to the effects of this invocation for the first time, a target that's not immune emotional manipulation automatically loses all actions until the end of its next turn.
I suggest you reword this. Make it something like "A target failing its save against this formula for the first time must make an additional Will save or be shaken and paralyzed by fear for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting fear effect."

Special: Though not really having game mechanics implications, with DM's approval, this invocation may also affect pelvic orifices. In some cases, this could cause penalties due to not being able to expel bodily waste (... and could have other implications :smallbiggrin:).
Technically, the effects of this could be devastating. Sewing rodent asses was an historical method of disposing of them. If done well, they would kill their own kind to ease the pain before succumbing to it.

Special: Starting at level 16, any and all bodily orifices may be sealed (or selectively excluded) simultaneously.
I, personally, think it's better to allow it to scale into epic levels.

Oh, and tracheotomy was just one option.
I'll leave other options in the hands of the DM.
When a list of options is given, the expectation is that a less powerful effect will not work unless it is explicitely stated to work in the circumstance. An ability that can be negated with Wish or Miracle, but does not mention anything about Remove Curse, then which game master would allow this lower-level spell to work? Logically, it follows that if an heal check can be used to save the life of a defaced person, the DC listed will be the lowest DC to do it with minimal damage to the target.

In other words, I'm saying nobody will do a tracheotomy at DC 20 that deals 2d3 Con damage when they can dig a new nostril at DC 10, maybe dealing 1d6 points of normal damage. Only the easiest option needs to be listed, just as anyone would have allowed Wish to negate Bestow Curse even if it was not explicitely listed.

[nonsi]

I second this.

I think I'll go for one save when applied by touch and multiple saves (one per organ) at range.
I'm not sure if this has precedence, but this somehow feels right to me.




I suggest you reword this. Make it something like "A target failing its save against this formula for the first time must make an additional Will save or be shaken and paralyzed by fear for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting fear effect."

Suggestion accepted.




Technically, the effects of this could be devastating. Sewing rodent asses was an historical method of disposing of them. If done well, they would kill their own kind to ease the pain before succumbing to it.

What kind of sick f**k does that just for curiosity?
Anyway, I wouldn't reflect RL animal behavior on the game in such a manner, assuming that creatures usually fight on to survive.




I, personally, think it's better to allow it to scale into epic levels.

I don't know of any non-epic power in 3e that scales to something new when you "transcend".
Also, even though the effect is quite overwhelming, there are worse things than temporary total de-orification by level 16 (again: flesh to stone, disintegrate, destruction...)




When a list of options is given, the expectation is that a less powerful effect will not work unless it is explicitely stated to work in the circumstance. An ability that can be negated with Wish or Miracle, but does not mention anything about Remove Curse, then which game master would allow this lower-level spell to work? Logically, it follows that if an heal check can be used to save the life of a defaced person, the DC listed will be the lowest DC to do it with minimal damage to the target.

In other words, I'm saying nobody will do a tracheotomy at DC 20 that deals 2d3 Con damage when they can dig a new nostril at DC 10, maybe dealing 1d6 points of normal damage. Only the easiest option needs to be listed, just as anyone would have allowed Wish to negate Bestow Curse even if it was not explicitely listed.

I wouldn't go for digging a new nostril, because one could argue that the victim would probably choke on its own blood.
But I could accept cutting the mouth open for 1d3 Con damage (HP are an abstraction while Con damage stands for actual physical damage).

[Network]

What kind of sick f**k does that just for curiosity?
Anyway, I wouldn't reflect RL animal behavior on the game in such a manner, assuming that creatures usually fight on to survive.
I read this was in a French sardine cannery, but it could just as well have been an urban legend. I'm not sure now...

I don't know of any non-epic power in 3e that scales to something new when you "transcend".
Do you mean you don't know any non-epic effect that scales into epic levels? There are in fact plenty. Channelled Soul Blast, Maw of Chaos and Wings of Flurry all deal uncapped damage based oncaster level and scale into epic levels. Polar Ray has a damage cap of 25d6, so you need to have a caster level of 25 to get the most of it. Blasphemy with an epic caster level pre-epic is a favorite tactic of evil powergamers (evil in game terms, here). And almost all spells with a duration based on caster level have no upper limit on the duration, so increasing caster level is also a great way to increase spell durations.

If you mean you do not know any ability that stops scaling and then gives all options directly passed a certain level, I'd have a little more trouble finding one, but it probably exists in the official rules somewhere.

Also, even though the effect is quite overwhelming, there are worse things than temporary total de-orification by level 16 (again: flesh to stone, disintegrate, destruction...)
Even a perfectly unoptimized party will be protected against destruction by level 9, given that death ward is a must-have for not getting screwed by death effects and energy absorption. It's a little trickier to get immune to flesh to stone and disintegrate, but there is an armor special ability in Complete Arcane that does it (lack of Constitution score also protects against flesh to stone, while disintegrate is only an untyped high damage spell). If these do not work, then it's time a party member devotes himself to counterspelling (with a good spellcraft modifier and a few scrolls, this is not entirely out of question). None of these tactics function against invocations.

I wouldn't go for digging a new nostril, because one could argue that the victim would probably choke on its own blood.
But I could accept cutting the mouth open for 1d3 Con damage (HP are an abstraction while Con damage stands for actual physical damage).
Fair enough, even though it would interact strangely with immunity to Constitution damage.

I think opening a new mouth is also how a character from Vampire: The Masquerade got around having his mouth shout close by a tzimisce. So it's fun to be able to do (almost) the same in D&D.

[nonsi]

If you mean you do not know any ability that stops scaling and then gives all options directly passed a certain level, I'd have a little more trouble finding one, but it probably exists in the official rules somewhere.

Yes. That was what I meant.




Even a perfectly unoptimized party will be protected against destruction by level 9, given that death ward is a must-have for not getting screwed by death effects and energy absorption. It's a little trickier to get immune to flesh to stone and disintegrate, but there is an armor special ability in Complete Arcane that does it (lack of Constitution score also protects against flesh to stone, while disintegrate is only an untyped high damage spell). If these do not work, then it's time a party member devotes himself to counterspelling (with a good spellcraft modifier and a few scrolls, this is not entirely out of question). None of these tactics function against invocations.

Bottom line, what needs to be resolved is this: am I breaking anything by allowing total de-orification by level 16?
My assessment is that with multiple saves at range, this would make it a low probability result, so the warlock would need to get into the heat of battle - and that's not a place a warlock is cut out to deal with properly.




Fair enough, even though it would interact strangely with immunity to Constitution damage.


Fair point.
I'll probably state that this invocation only applies for the living, or simply state that not having a Con-score renders the target immune.

[Network]

Fair point.
I'll probably state that this invocation only applies for the living, or simply state that not having a Con-score renders the target immune.
That's already covered by the Fortitude save thingy. Deathless and undead are immune to all Fortitude-based effects, except those that are harmless or affect objects. Constructs are immune as well, but their immunity extends to harmless effects that do not also affect object. Since neither of the two tags is mentioned in the invocation, and it allows a Fortitude save, they are immune to it. I can't think of any other way to lack a Constitution score that doesn't give similar immunities.

Now there are a couple more ways to gain immunity to Constitution damage while still being a living creature. This includes Sheltered Vitality (a spell), Strongheart Vest, Vitality Belt (soulmelds), etc. Funnily enough, undead are explicitely immune to Constitution damage, as an ability unrelated to their lack of it. Weird isn't it?

But I'd say it still makes more sense to go with hit points damage, because I could definitely see a character with damage reduction being harder to dig a mouth in than one without, or a character with fast healing cicatrize the new mouth cavity in no time. It makes more sense in-universe than to see someone thinking ''I have Strongheart Vest on, so digging a new mouth for me deals me no damage.'' And it's not like cutting a new mouth for you intrinsically reduced your ability to hold your breath or run, except from the pain (which, thankfully, is rather easy to magically deal with). You could, of course, make it do both (say, 1 Con and 2d6 damage).

[nonsi]

That's already covered by the Fortitude save thingy. Deathless and undead are immune to all Fortitude-based effects, except those that are harmless or affect objects. Constructs are immune as well, but their immunity extends to harmless effects that do not also affect object. Since neither of the two tags is mentioned in the invocation, and it allows a Fortitude save, they are immune to it. I can't think of any other way to lack a Constitution score that doesn't give similar immunities.

Now there are a couple more ways to gain immunity to Constitution damage while still being a living creature. This includes Sheltered Vitality (a spell), Strongheart Vest, Vitality Belt (soulmelds), etc. Funnily enough, undead are explicitely immune to Constitution damage, as an ability unrelated to their lack of it. Weird isn't it?

But I'd say it still makes more sense to go with hit points damage, because I could definitely see a character with damage reduction being harder to dig a mouth in than one without, or a character with fast healing cicatrize the new mouth cavity in no time. It makes more sense in-universe than to see someone thinking ''I have Strongheart Vest on, so digging a new mouth for me deals me no damage.'' And it's not like cutting a new mouth for you intrinsically reduced your ability to hold your breath or run, except from the pain (which, thankfully, is rather easy to magically deal with). You could, of course, make it do both (say, 1 Con and 2d6 damage).

Yes, definitely.
1 Con and 2d6 HP sounds just right.

Just one thing missing: cutting yourself a new mouth should be shocking and rattle your system for at least 1 round.
I was thinking of Staggered/Nauseated/Stunned condition........