Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide

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Player’s Gonna Play
A Bard’s Guide

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“Music is everything and nothing. It is useless and no limit can be set on its use. Music takes me to places of illimitable sensual and insensate joy, accessing points of ecstasy that no angelic lover could ever locate, or plunging me into gibbering weeping hells of pain that no torturer could devise. Music makes me write this sort of maundering adolescent nonsense without embarrassment. Music is in fact the dog's bollocks. Nothing else comes close.”

-Stephen Fry

While Bards were originally a nigh-unfeasible mix of Fighter, Rogue, and Druid, they were made into a regular class with the onset of 2e AD&D. The classic Bard combines the combat prowess of the Fighter and acrobatic skill set of the Rogue with magical abilities. Using magical songs, Bards can buff their allies and devastate their enemies. The 5e Bard stays true to the classic archetype, providing a powerful caster who can hold their own in close combat, and a damned fine skill monkey to boot.

Of course, apart from the mechanical aspects, the Bard is a class that demands to be roleplayed. Its spells demand that you think creatively. Its strengths push you to interact with people constantly. It wants you to be gregarious, and it was designed that way. If you want to be silly, clever, and powerful, the Bard might be the class for you.

Remember that this is an optimization guide. It is designed to allow readers to understand the strengths and advantages inherent to playing a Bard. That said, if you have a fun idea that isn't terribly optimized, don't be afraid to put fun ahead of numbers. It's a game, after all.

Color Scheme

This is freaking amazing! It provides many options, or will do one thing extremely well.
This is really good, but not quite phenomenal.
This is good. It will regularly be useful, though it won't provide many tactical choices.
Bad. It will be extremely rare that it's useful at all.


Occasionally very useful, but limited in scope or applicability.

Table of Contents:

Learn Your Scales
Musical Cultures
Bardic Colleges
Set List
Feats and Multiclassing

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Player’s Gonna Play
You Must Learn your Scales and your Arpeggios

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Ability Scores
Strength: Good for skill checks, and some melee builds will need STR, but most won't. Valor Bards are more likely to go with STR over Lore Bards.
Dexterity: This should almost certainly be your secondary stat, and Valor Bards will want to have this roughly equal to their CHA. It boosts your attack, initiative, and AC, not to mention some great skills.
Constitution: Hit Points are good.
Intelligence: You might want a decent Arcana. Or you might dump this completely.
Wisdom: If you don’t dump INT, dump this. You might want it to boost your Perception and saves, but you need to pick one of them.
Charisma: This is your primary casing stat. Always pump it up.

While Bards are capable melee combatants, they are primarily casters. Even Bards in the College of Valor will spend as much time weaving spells as they will swinging blades.

Class Features
Hit Dice: 1d8 per level isn’t the worst. You won’t be able to take a punch like a Fighter can, but you’re no wimp.
Armor Proficiency: Light armor isn’t bad, especially since most Bards are DEX builds. Valor Bards get Medium and Shields.
Weapon Proficiency: You get all simple weapons, plus some martial swords and ranged weapons.
Saving Throws: DEX is extremely common, and you’ll be pumping it anyways. CHA is less common, but it’s common enough to be useful.
Skills: You literally get all the skills. Only the Rogue could possibly contest your position as supreme skill monkey. Grab Acrobatics, one conversational skill, and anything else you think you’ll enjoy.
Tools: Musical instruments. You’ll be able to find a use for this. At least, early on, you can make some coin.
Spellcasting: You can keep up with any other primary caster, with the same number of slots as any other principal caster, and as many cantrips as a Druid. The Bard list lacks a bit in pure damage potential, but it has options in every school, and you can make a powerful Enchanter or Illusionist. Plus, Ritual Casting.
Bardic Inspiration: Combine Bless and Guidance, then increase the size of the die every five levels. All this, and you don’t even need a spell slot.
Jack of All Trades: You will never be bad at a skill. Also applies to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Initiative, and Telekinesis ability checks, which is pretty damned helpful.
Song of Rest: Stretch out the whole party’s hit dice.
Expertise: Bards didn’t need to be any better skill monkeys, but they are.
Ability Score Improvement: Obviously good for obvious reasons. The only reason it's not sky blue is that the Fighter gets more.
Font of Inspiration: Bard features tend to make them even better at things they can already do, and this feature is no exception. Bardic Inspiration now regenerates much faster.
Countercharm: It’s a decent buff at the cost of an action. Paladins get similar features that don’t cost actions, but this is a solid ability, too.
Magical Secrets: Learn any two spells you want. This feature is the primary reason why people claim that Bards are the best caster class.
Superior Inspiration: You will always have some Bardic Inspiration. You probably weren’t running out very often to begin with, but there you have it.

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Cultural Music Exchange

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Player's Handbook
Hill Dwarf: You gain a boost to CON, which is nice, and you get some sweet Dwarf features. You get nothing that boosts your ability to attack or cast, though.
Mountain Dwarf: Like the Hill Dwarf, but instead of a dump stat, you get a boost to STR. Okay for Valor Bards. Again, Lore Bards shouldn’t touch it.
High Elf: Like all Elves, High Elves get Trance, proficiency with Perception checks, and a DEX boost. You won’t need the INT or the cantrip, though, and the weapon training is wasted.
Wood Elf: Again, the basic Elf package is solid, but the Wood-specific features aren’t terribly helpful. It’s a slight improvement on the High Elf.
Drow: Boost your DEX, boost your CHA, boost your casting, boost your Darkvision, plus all the Elf features! Sunlight Sensitivity sucks, but you can get around it, and most of your spells rely on saves. Besides, Faerie Fire washes out the disadvantage.
Lightfoot Halfling: DEX and CHA boosts are awesome. Luck is awesome. Brave is awesome. Hiding isn’t bad, either. This is awesome.
Stout Halfling: Like Lightfoot, but without a boost to CHA. Still, Con isn’t bad, and neither is resistance to poison.
Human: Plus one to every stat? Sure.
Variant Human: Feats are fun.
Dragonborn: A CHA boost, some damage resistance, and a breath attack? Cool. If you want a STR build, this is the race to pick. If you don’t, it’s still solid.
Forest Gnome: Gnome Cunning is awesome, and you get a DEX boost, but INT is your dump stat, and you don’t get much use out of anything else.
Rock Gnome: See above, but switch out DEX for CON.
Half-Elf: Did you want 16, 16, 14 for CHA, DEX, and CON? Then take this. You even get Elf features and even more skills.
Half-Orc: If you want a Valor Bard who’s a mediocre caster for the first eight levels, pick a Half-Orc. If you’re starting at level 8 or higher, it’s actually not bad. Nothing here for Lore Bards, though.
Tiefling: It’s a +2 to CHA, resistance to a common damage type, and you gain spells that key off of your CHA. You’re second boost goes to a dump stat, but everything else is great.

Dungeon Master's Guide:
Aasimar: Charisma and resistance are great, but the spells are kind of crappy.
Eladrin: High Elf with a teleport spell. Not terrible.

Sword Coast Adveturer's Guide
Duergar: Okay for Valor, less good for Lore.
Deep Gnome: DEX is fine, and you can get advantage on a lot of saves and Stealth. That said, INT does nothing for you. Besides, Deep Gnomes are too dour.
Ghostwise Halfling: The other halflings are simply superior for your purposes.


Volo's Guide to Monsters
Aasimar: The Charisma is great. The rest of it is arguably better. It just offers too much not to be useful.
Firbolg: Not that great for Bards, but not terrible for a Valor Bard.
Goliath: Another that is okay for a Valor Bard, but terrible for a Lore Bard.
Kenku: It's good at doing things unrelated to being a bard, but it isn't great otherwise.
Lizardfolk: If you roll a solid STR, this isn't terrible, but it isn't great unless you're a Valor Bard.
Tabaxi: CHA, DEX, and mobility features sounds good to me.
Triton: Are you a Valor Bard? Well these guys boost all your major stats, plus resistance and extra spells.

Volo's Monstrous Races
Bugbear: Don't bother. Really, no one wants to hear a Bugbear sing. They're not terrible Valor Bards, but they're not good Bards.
Goblin: The bonus action Disengage is nice, as is getting boosts to your secondaries.
Hobgoblin: There is nothing about Hobgoblins that is musically inclined.
Kobold: Pack Tactics isn't great for Bards, who basically only use save-or sucks.
Orc: Nothing that Orcs provide helps with the whole singing and making magic by singing schtick.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood: For having no emotion, Yuan-Ti are damn good at musical magic. The Charisma and Magic Resistance are solid on their own, but there's also poison immunity and some extra spells.


Elemental Evil
Aarakocra: Flight is fun, and you get a DEX boost, but nothing provides you with any major advantages.
Genasi: All the Genasi options provide a CON boost and some CON spells. This is generally a pretty good thing.
Air Genasi: DEX and Levitate are decent for any Bard.
Earth Genasi: It's better as a STR build.
Fire Genasi: Just take a Tiefling.
Water Genasi: The only thing here that helps you is the CON boost. If you want Acid resistance, be a Dragonborn.


Plane Shift Zendikar
Holy crap, it's a Magic/D&D crossover. A lot of the races in this supplement don't fit the races in traditional D&D settings that well, so be sure to talk to your DM before utilizing them.

Human: About what you'd expect.
Kor: Ghostwise Halfling drops psychic ribbon for a climb speed.
Merfolk: I have a little saying: "If it boosts your primary casting stat and gives you extra magic, it's sky-blue." All Merfolk are sky-blue.
Vampire: The Charisma boost is nice, but the other features are not terribly important for a Bard.
Goblin: A boost to Constitution and two resistances is going to be nice for any class.
Elf: Tajura at least get the Charisma boost, but Juraga and Mul Daya just aren't Bard material.


Unearthed Arcana supplements have provided a few new options:

Eberron

Changeling: Charisma and Dexterity boosts, plus Deception and Shapechanging? Plenty of fun for a Bard here.
Shifters: Shifters tend to provide purely physical boosts. Some of these boosts are better than others, but Valor Bards are generally the only ones who will want to pick a Shifter. Lore Bards have no business being Shifters.

Beasthide Shifter: The bonuses to AC, CON, and DEX make a decent Valor option.
Cliffwalk Shifter: Your DEX is good, and you get the shifter temp HP, but other shifter options are simply better.
Longstride: Another pure Dex option, with a mobility option. No need to poach Longstrider.
Longtooth Shifter: A little STR and DEX can help a Valor Bard.
Razorclaw Shifter: Pure DEX with a bonus attack. Not terrible.
Wildhunt Shifter: WIS is a dump stat.
Warforged: A Valor Bard can get some use out of this, but a Lore Bard should just say no.

Waterborne
Minotaur: You ever feel like you’re constantly repeating yourself? Well, it’s another race that is okay for a Valor Bard, but terrible for a Lore Bard.

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Player’s Gonna Play
Bardic Colleges

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College of Lore
The College of Lore is for bards truly devoted to story and song. In his quest for learning, the Lore Bard gains more skills, more magic, and some truly awesome abilities that make him an excellent support character. Arguably the greatest caster in the game.

Bonus Proficiencies: At this point, you’re so skilled you’ll hardly need spells to accomplish anything.
Cutting Words: Now, you buff your friends, and debuff your enemies using Bardic Inspiration. Very nice.
Additional Magical Secrets: Who doesn’t like more spells?
Peerless Skill: Never fail at anything ever again. Well, up to five times per short rest. Works on Initiative, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and Telekinesis, too.


College of Valor
The College of Valor is for those skalds whose devotion to heroism has gone far beyond academic study. The Valor Bard is a competent melee combatant without losing any of his magical ability.

Bonus Proficiencies: Exactly what you need to become a strong melee combatant.
Combat Inspiration: Solid buffs to damage and AC.
Extra Attack: Double your damage.
Battle Magic: This is where you really start to shine as a gish. Cast and slash, every turn.


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Xanathar's Guide to Everything
Ask your DM before using a splatbook, kids!

College of Glamour (Xanathar's Guide to Everything)
The college of Glamour is for people who like looking fabulous. Oh, and people who want to go all in on battlefield control. Like, really go all in. It's scary how in you are. You are in it like the Tory who was walking by Lexington field on his way home from hunting in 1775 when he dropped his musket and it went off. There's nowhere else to go but forward. Into it.
Mantle of Inspiration: The temp HP is okay, but reshaping the battlefield can be pretty damn nice.
Enthralling Performance: Charming some peeps is nice, but taking a minute straight to do it makes this a niche ability.
Mantle of Majesty: Constantly casting Command on a bonus action without using any slots is pretty sweet. It takes your concentration, but otherwise it's pretty great.
Unbreakable Majesty: Man, this school loves its bonus actions. Like this one, it basically stops anything from being able to attack you unless it makes a save, and then it gets disadvantage against your saves. Wait, it does what?! That's an option?!

College of Swords (Xanatha's Guide to Everything)
The College of Swords is for those Bards who want to truly devote themselves to the pursuit of the blade without giving up their casting. Now updated with Xany!

Bonus Proficiencies: Fairly central to your character concept, though comparatively limited.
Fighting Style: Both fighting styles work well with this revised version of the school.
Blade Flourish: You deal extra damage and get another thing! The options are all pretty sweet, and you don't have to choose between them when you build your character! It's pretty dang sweet.
Extra Attack: Very nice, as always.
Master's Flourish: Never run out of flourishes, and keep your Inspiration until you really want to use it. Cool.

College of Whispers (Xanathar's Guide to Everything)
A lot of the time, when Wizards of the Coast wants to make a morally dubious character, they just slap the word "shadow" onto some abilities and call it a day. But this time, they made an inherently creepy archetype whose abilities revolve around sowing fear and distrust, not to mention corpse spying. Of course, it's still Wizards, so they slapped the word "shadow" on at the end anyways.
Psychic Blades: Like all people whose abilities revolve around espionage and mental power, it manifests in... being able to hit people well... Oh, well, Psylocke a sucker if it makes you feel good. It's definitely limited compared to Sneak Attack, it's closest relative.
Words of Terror: Your first thematically appropriate ability! It's situational, but fun! Get the ear of the king and pull a Wormtongue.
Mantle of Whispers: Part disguise, part information gathering, all creepy. Seriously, you take a dead guy's shadow and steal his form. That's messed up. I don't even want to talk to you right now.
Shadow Lore: Nothing about this has anything to do with shadows. They could have called it Whispered Secrets, or Arcane Voice, or Sinister Susuruss, but no. They just had to tack shadows onto something so you knew this was the bad one. Lame. Super Lame. Not the ability, it's freaking awesome, and it's completely on theme. Charming with no consequences is sweet.


College of Satire (Unearthed Arcana: Classics Revisited)
Fun fact: Fools in medieval and Renaissance England were specifically licensed to be able to tell the truth without legal consequences, and the College of Satire draws from these real-world roots. The Fool seems specifically designed both to ferret out truths and avoid consequences, two things that can be very handy in D&D.
This College is not Adventurer's League legal. Ask your DM before using splats.

Bonus Proficiencies: A nice suite of skills and tools.
Tumbling Fool: The bonus action Dash/Disengage combined is awesome enough, but there are other benefits, too!
Fool's Insight: A solid, low-cost information gathering tool.
Fool's Luck: It has a nasty drawback, but it will save your butt when you need it to.


As you can tell, the Bard provides excellent options that diverge considerably, but provide excellent power and utility.

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Player’s Gonna Play
Set List

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The usefulness of a lot of Bard spells frequently depends on your own imagination and roleplaying. Of course, they also tend to have measurable mechanical aspects that allow you to pull off your imaginative tomfoolery with varying degrees of success.

It's also worth noting that many of the Bard's best spells rely on Wisdom saves. It is advisable that you occasionally branch out, even picking somewhat inferior spells, in order to ensure that you can target multiple abilities. Otherwise, you might end up with great spells that are completely useless against your enemy.

You can use either a component pouch or a musical instrument as a focus.

I will not be rating spells eligible for choice using Magical Secrets, as ranking every spell in the game sounds like a horrible experience. Just make sure one of your choices is Counterspell, and remember that Telekinesis benefits from Jack of All Trades and Peerless Skill.

Besides, Navigator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?46313-Navigator) put together this awesome list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ad9xzK8ISo6zpUQP_lxJD_ToWXd6_vhqE7STZSHnUzg/edit?usp=sharing) of spells eligible for Magical Secrets.


Blade Ward: This would be great if it didn’t last a single round. As it is, if you expect to be attacked by a lot of mundane weapons, you should probably just Dodge and take a different cantrip. That said, a Valor Bard can get use out of this after hitting level 14, when he can cast and then attack as a bonus action.
Dancing Lights: Light for people who want to feel fancy. It uses concentration though, so I guess making Light fancy takes a lot of skill. (Concentration)
Friends: Charm Person for people you don’t care about. Want to get past a hostile bouncer? Friends. Interrogation? Friends. Maybe you want a guard to carry a bomb into a monastery, and you don’t particularly care what he thinks of you afterwards. That’s right. Friends. (Concentration)
Light: Makes a light. If you frequently find yourself in need of light, take this cantrip.
Mage Hand: It provides a minor benefit that you can definitely get some use out of. In fact, I’ve found that players who chose Mage Hand will frequently find far more reasons for using Mage Hand than other players think is reasonable. It’s like when you have a hammer, every problem is solved by Mage Hand.
Mending: Fix a thing. There are some things that are definitely worth fixing. If you think you’ll be around things that need fixing, maybe take the spell that lets you fix things.
Message: I can imagine ways that this spell can be useful. I cannot imagine very many, though.
Minor Illusion: A lovely spell that allows you to fail spectacularly when you roleplay an animal sound. Also, a fantastic way to trick people without using up any resources. Take it. (Concentration)
Prestidigitation: It’s all flash, and it provides no mechanical benefit whatsoever. You’re a bard. Take it.
Thunderclap (EE/XGtE): Bards get a damaging cantrip! It deals more damage than Vicious Mockery, but it doesn’t impose disadvantage and leads to fewer yo’ momma jokes at the table. It's also a spell that demands that you be surrounded to use it, but doesn't actually help very much if you're surrounded. Lightly slapping the three orcs standing next to you is rarely a winning strategy.
True Strike: You know what’s better than giving up an action to roll twice for an attack next turn? Rolling this turn, then rolling next turn. You roll the same number of times, but you have the chance to hit twice. Casting this spell is mathematically worse than not casting this spell. (Concentration)
Vicious Mockery: The Bardliest cantrip you can get, it deals very little damage, but the disadvantage is an excellent debuff. Plus, any spell that encourages you to insult the DM’s favorite villain deserves respect.



Animal Friendship: Heavily situational.
Bane: If you have other spellcasters in your party, this can be a strong spell. (Concentration)
Charm Person: Better than Friends, but possibly not good enough to contend with your other options. You might want to wait for Suggestion.
Comprehend Languages: Obviously extremely situational.
Cure Wounds: Healing is good. This provides healing that scales.
Detect Magic: You may need it at times. I don’t know if you’ll need it enough to displace your other options. (Concentration)
Disguise Self: Again, situational, but useful.
Dissonant Whispers: Deal okay damage, and force your enemy to run away of their own volition. This can trigger all kinds of op attacks and reshape the field in your favor.
Earth Tremor (EE/XGtE): This can help you escape a nasty situation, dealing some damage to boot.
Faerie Fire: I like having advantage. This does that thing that I like. (Concentration)
Feather Fall: When you need it, you’ll be glad you have it. You will not, however, need it very often.
Healing Word: Heal on a bonus action. You don’t heal as much as with Cure Wounds, but you still get to do something else. Valor Bards may want this over Cure Wounds so they can continue attacking.
Heroism: The temp HP is extremely strong when you first get it, but that fades with time and levels. (Concentration)
Identify: Having ritual spells around is certainly a good idea, and this one provides a decent benefit. Having the Wizard take it is an intelligent decision.
Illusory Script: Again, situationally useful.
Longstrider: The slight mobility granted is simply not worth expending any resources.
Silent Image: A neat little illusion that’s suitably superior to Minor Illusion. (Concentration)
Sleep: At first you can lay waste to entire encounters with this spell, but it becomes less impressive as time rolls by.
Speak with Animals: Situational, if you could not tell.
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter: It keeps your opponent from being able to do anything for a while, and provides advantage. Extremely abusable in social situations. (Concentration)
Thunderwave: Deal okay damage and push your enemies away. Those are two things any caster can appreciate.
Unseen Servant: Situational, but it can address so many situations.



Animal Messenger: You know this is situational.
Blindness/Deafness: An enemy that can’t see you is an enemy that won’t last very long.
Calm Emotions: Don’t want to deal with the furious orcs? Worried that mob might grab its pitchforks? Need to fight off a Frightening Presence? Calm Emotions is here to help you out. (Concentration)
Cloud of Daggers: Okay damage in a very small area. If you can keep a target from moving out of the area, it gets better (Concentration)
Crown of Madness: As many have pointed out, the fact that the enemy attacks before you force it to move can lead to situations in which the enemy you cast it upon can’t actually attack another enemy. (Concentration)
Detect Thoughts: It has situational uses, but can also be used to sweep for invisible enemies. (Concentration)
Enhance Ability: It’s a solid buff, but it does not allow advantage on attacks or spell attacks. (Concentration)
Enthrall: I just don’t see the point of it. I suppose you can distract a creature while your buddies sneak around, but they could just use Pass Without Trace. Its uses are extremely limited.
Heat Metal: As a matter of fact, dealing damage every turn with no save allowed is extremely nice. The ability to incapacitate or disarm your opponent is gravy. (Concentration)
Hold Person: Don’t want a big guy to get near you, hold him still!(Concentration)
Invisibility: Always good. (Concentration)
Knock: If no one has Thieves’ Tools, this can be useful.
Lesser Restoration: Will be necessary a some point.
Locate Animals or Plants: Obviously situational.
Locate Object: Again, clearly situational. To the point where you shouldn’t have it without a spellbook. (Concentration)
Magic Mouth: So very situational.
Phantasmal Force: The uses of this spell are infinite, and the damage you could do with it is tremendous. (Concentration)
Pyrotechnics (EE/XGtE): Provides solid debuffs that are definitely worth utilizing. (Concentration)
See Invisibility: Somewhat situational, and Detect Thoughts and Faerie Fire can replicate its effects.
Shatter: Scaling AOE attack that deals decent damage. Bards don’t actually have many of those.
Silence: If you want to cripple another caster or sneak through a dangerous are, use this. (Concentration)
Skywrite (EE/XGtE): Completely situational. (Concentration)
Suggestion: The only limit is your imagination… in addition to the other limits specified in the PHB. It’s an extremely powerful charm. (Concentration)
Warding Wind (EE/XGtE): Like with Unseen Servant, the sheer variety of situations in which this would be useful move it beyond situational abilities. (Concentration)
Zone of Truth: Useful, but not necessary.



Bestow Curse:When I read the text for this spell, I feel like a trick is being played on me. You can choose from all those awesome debuffs or convince your DM of another one? Great! (Concentration)
Catnap (EE/XGtE): You get a short rest! And you get a short rest! And there's only one other short rest. That's it. That's all the short rests. Still, that's pretty nice.
Clairvoyance: That's a solid spying tool. Not necessarily one you're ever going to use, but still solid. (Concentration)
Dispel Magic: I think everyone finds themselves needing this occasionally. Benefits from Peerless Skill and Jack of All Trades.
Enemies Abound (EE/XGtE): Pick one enemy and make him attack everyone around him. This can be a game changer. (Concentration)
Fear: It has the potential to completely change an encounter. Forcing your enemies to flee while giving your buddies op attacks is fun, but the conditions for saving from it make it downright abusable, and its an AOE to boot! (Concentration)
Feign Death: Situational. Sometimes you'll get some use out of this, but you usually will not.
Glyph of Warding: If you have an hour to use it, you will frequently find it worthwhile. However, you will rarely have an hour to spare when exploring a dungeon.
Hypnotic Pattern: Take away the actions of quite a lot of enemies. Very nice. (Concentration)
Leomund’s Tiny Hut: Protect yourself from the elements, your enemies, and random encounters at night. A decent utility, though not particularly useful in combat.
Major Image: Illusions have infinite uses, and this is a very big illusion. (Concentration)
Nondetection: Completely situational. If the BBEG is a mage who has been scrying you, go for it.
Plant Growth: The utility uses are entirely situational, but it also aids you in escaping pursuers and allows you to hold groups of enemies fairly still for AOE effects.
Sending: You know what's totally situational? This spell.
Speak with Dead: And this spell.
Speak with Plants: Also, this spell.
Stinking Cloud: AOE that denies actions on a CON save? Not bad. (Concentration)
Tongues: Playing Holy Spirit is very situational in its usefulness.



Charm Monster (EE/XGtE):
Compulsion: Solid battlefield control that denies movement and can set up some nasty AOEs. (Concentration)
Confusion: It interferes with enemy actions as an AOE, but it offers saves every turn and has a smaller radius. Plus the effects are unpredictable. (Concentration)
Dimension Door: 500' teleport with very few restrictions. Also potentially weaponizeable.
Freedom of Movement: Provides decent bonuses, but maybe not worth the slot.
Greater Invisibility: Well, that's nice. (Concentration)
Hallucinatory Terrain: Good for occasionally tricking people.
Locate Creature: Does what it does well, but you won't necessarily need it. (Concentration)
Polymorph: While it's not completely broken as some came, it's still tons of fun. (Concentration)



Animate Object: Animate some silverware and tell them to assassinate a king for 65 damage per turn. Or animate a cottage and ask the taxman if you really owe for property. This is one of those spells that's more useful than it sounds. (Concentration)
Awaken: A spell for those among us who, despite all evidence to the contrary, genuinely believe their pets have something interesting to say. It's situational, but infinitely applicable.
Dominate Person: This is arguably the most powerful enchantment up to this level, but it only lasts a minute, and the target can save multiple times. (Concentration)
Dream: Situational, but its usefulness is wide-ranging. From simple communication, to intentionally harming or even assassinating a target, you can do quite a lot with this ability.
Geas: You can do so many horrible things to a target using Geas. You can ruin an NPC, force an enemy into service, or even assassinate someone via dangerous, but not suicidal tasks.
Greater Restoration: You will need this at some point. Take it if no one else will.
Hold Monster: Excellent ability that can stop your death in its tracks. (Concentration)
Legend Lore: Just make a History check. You're a skill monkey, after all.
Mass Cure Wounds: I'm a big believer in not dying as a means of winning, and this is a good spell for that. Doesn't scale terribly well, but still great.
Mislead: One of those situational spells that's still useful in combat and has so many uses it has to be black.(Concentration)
Modify Memory: This one is just plain situational, though many parties will wish people forgot what just happened. As a Bard, that will likely be your fault. (Concentration)
Planar Binding: Potentially powerful, but celestials, fey, and fiends all tend to have excellent Charisma saves, which limits its use. Certain fiends are better targets for this than others, but those tend to be the weaker fiends.
Raise Dead: This is one of those spells someone needs to have, or else your party will regret it.
Scrying: Totally situational. Flavorful, and a spell I personally like, but situational. (Concentration)
Seeming: A decent way to stealth your way through hostile territory. Also good for turning guards against one of your enemies.
Skill Empowerment (EE/XGtE): A situational boost to skills. I like it. (Concentration)
Synaptic Static (EE/XGtE): Deal damage and harm your enemies' ability to deal damage back. It's especially useful against spellcasters, and especially especially useful against stupid spellcasters.
Teleportation Circle: A decent way to skip travel time for the whole party.



Eyebite: Solid debuffs on multiple targets for ten rounds for a single slot. Not bad. Still, a lot of these effects can be replicated by lower level spells. (Concentration)
Find the Path: Extremely situational. (Concentration)
Guards and Wards: If you have a home base of your own, you will want this spell. Most players will not want this spell.
Mass Suggestion: I love Suggestion. This is Suggestion for lots of people.
Otto’s Irresistible Dance: This is possibly the most fun you can have with a spell. Cast on flying creatures for double the awesome. (Concentration)
Programmed Illusion: Situational, but like all illusions a little creativity can make it very useful.
True Seeing: It's a festival of benefits for the price of one spell.



Etherealness: Excellent scouting spell, plus an automatic "Eff your prison."
Forcecage: Possibly broken, but no save is necessary, and it can completely remove someone from a fight.
Mirage Arcane: A tactile illusion limited only by your imagination and the "no creatures" clause.
Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion: A fancy hidey-hole. Not quite useless, and very fun.
Mordenkainen’s Sword: Summon with an action, and deal bonus action damage for the remainder of its duration. The damage is poor for the level, but it's on your bonus action. (Concentration)
Project Image: If you need another you hanging around, this works out. (Concentration)
Regenerate: Excellent healing over a long duration with no concentration.
Resurrection: In case no one had Raise Dead when the Wizard died.
Symbol: Upgrades Glyph, but has a massive cost. You won't be using it often if you take it, and there's a lot of competition for these slots.
Teleport: This is simply a great teleportation spell.



Dominate Monster: Like Dominate Person, but works against any creature. (Concentration)
Feeblemind: A little twisted, but you can completely destroy an enemy's ability to function as a person, almost permanently.
Glibness: You'll be out-talking everyone anyways, but you'll find uses for it. If you're expecting to fight casters, it's an enormous boost to your Counterspell.
Mind Blank: Great buff if you need it.
Power Word Stun: Guaranteed chance to prevent at least a single round of actions.



Foresight: Holy balls this is great!
Mass Polymorph (EE/XGtE): If you don't like the battlefield, make a new one. (Concentration)
Power Word Heal: Make someone all better.
Power Word Kill: Do you really want to waste your ninth level slot on something that has less than 100 HP?
Psychic Scream (EE/XGtE): It deals great damage, stuns, keys off an INT save, and targets a lot of enemies! But most importantly, it makes heads explode.
True Polymorph: And now you're a dragon. (Concentration)

[EvilAnagram]

Player’s Gonna Play
Feats and Multiclassing

http://i.imgur.com/jc5Syoa.jpg
Image Copyright WotC


Barbarian : Being unable to cast makes this pretty bad for a caster.
Cleric: a couple domains offer enough ancillary benefits that one level might be worth taking, but be sure to pick as few spells that rely on WIS as possible. And why do you have a 13 WIS?
Druid: Doesn't offer anything to a full caster with WIS as a dump stat.
Fighter: Fighting Style, Extra Attacks, Second Wind, Action Surge, Combat Maneuvers... this is a great for a Valor Bard. Even Lore Bards can benefit from a few levels.
Monk: No overlap, no real benefits.
Paladin: You share a spellcasting ability, plus a lot of combat benefits. A smiting Bard could be fun.
Ranger: A level in Ranger is okay as an alternative to other martials, even two or three if you want Hunter's Mark or a Path option, but no more.
Rogue: Sneak attack is fun, but you're already a skill monkey.
Sorcerer: Arguably the best option to up your blasting potential, but metamagic also provides boosts to your buffs.
Warlock: Another excellent option to increase your blasting power, plus the benefits of Invocations.
Wizard: Don't cast spells with your dump stat.




Alert: Going before the enemy is rarely a bad thing.
Athlete: You really don't need this.
Actor:If you thought you weren't crazy enough at Charisma based skill checks, this feat can help you truly break the game. Great for only costing an ability point.
Charger: It's okay. You get to charge, just like you did in the last system. Nothing special.
Crossbow Expert: If you want to use a crossbow, it's either necessary or broken, depending on how your DM rules it.
Defensive Duelist: Great for any melee build, and archers will find it useful when combat gets tight, too.
Dual Wielder: Most bards need a free hand to cast, though if you go with the College of Swords then it's much more useful.
Dungeon Delver: Great if your DM is a bit trap-happy.
Durable: It's okay. Nothing special, but it's a good half-feat bonus.
Elemental Adept: You can snag some blasting spells from other classes and make great use out of this, though maybe not as much use as some other casters could.
Grappler: Damn it, Jim! You're a caster, not a soldier!
Great Weapon Master: An excellent feat for a Valor Bard.
Healer: Your skills will be high enough for it.
Heavily Armored: You really shouldn't need Heavy Armor, but some Valor Bards might want it.
Heavy Armor Master: This is the only reason to get Heavily Armored, but only for Valor Batds, and the benefits aren't worth sacrificing two Ability increases.
Inspiring Leader: Starts off powerful and scales okay. Good choice for a Bard.
Keen Mind: Situational, but abusable, and it only costs a single ability point.
Lightly Armored: You already have the benefit.
Linguist: In my experience, knowing the right language at the right time can save your ass.
Lucky: This is an exceptionally powerful feat. Definitely worth taking.
Mage Slayer: A Valor Bard can get great use out of this, especially if your DM likes casters.
Magic Initiate: Grab some blasting power without having to multiclass. Great option.
Martial Adept: I would only pick this if you multiclass as a Battle Master.
Medium Armor Master: Good for a STR build that relies on Medium Armor, since you won't have to pump DEX quite as much to get a great AC. Even a DEX based Valor Bard could use it if he really wants that +1 AC.
Mobile: Solid mobility boost with an escape option.
Moderately Armored: You already have the benefit if you're a Valor Bard, but Lore Bards might want it.
Mounted Combatant: It's a perfectly good option if you're frequently mounted.
Observant: It's a great bonus to two skills that are extremely important to a party.
Polearm Master: Great synergy with Sentinel. Only for STR-based builds.
Resilient: For a single ability point, you gain a save proficiency. That's awesome.
Ritual Caster: You're already a ritual caster, though this might be worthwhile for the spellbook.
Savage Attacker: A powerful option for any melee build.
Sentinel: Not good for a Bard. Moves up to Blue if you're a Valor Bard and have Polearm Master.
Sharpshooter: Great benefits for a ranged character.
Shield Master: Great if you use a shield.
Skilled: Do you really need any more skills?
Skulker: Sneaky stuff can always work to your advantage.
Spell Sniper: Okay, but this is not made for a Bard.
Tavern Brawler: You're a Bard. Don't take this.
Tough: It's a fairly good benefit, and it ends up giving you 40 HP at level 20.
War Caster: Valor Bards have no reason not to take this. In fact, if they don't take this, they're big stupid dummy heads. Lore Bards should take it, to. I have half a mind to introduce a gold rating just to emphasize how much this feat rocks.
Weapon Master: You already have proficiency with everything if you're a Valor Bard. If you're not, you still don't need this.



Bountiful Luck: Giving someone a free reroll on a critical failure without using any resources is unreasonably awesome.
Dragon Fear: If you're at all familiar with me, you'll know I like frightening enemies.
Dragon Hide: Getting a boost to your AC for half a feat is good all by itself.
Drow High Magic: I will never turn down extra spells. Never. Do you hear me!? Never!
Dwarven Fortitude: This is a pretty solid boost to your resilience.
Elven Accuracy: This is goooooood. Really good. Like, really, really good. Dang. It's so good. Why is it so good? It should be less good.
Fade Away: Turning invisible as a reaction with no spell slot is damn nice.
Fey Teleportation: A half-feat that provides a situational ability with a great slotless teleportation spell. Yay!
Flames of Phlegethos: You just won't be using fire that much.
Infernal Constitution: Resisting three kinds of damage and getting advantage on poison saves is nice. Also getting a point in CON is great.
Orcish Fury: Not terrible for a melee Bard.
Prodigy: Four situational abilities make a blue. That's just science.
Second Chance: I like mulligans, especially when you're forcing them on others. At the very least, you can negate 20s.
Squat Nimbleness: This is basically an "I don't want to be grappled," feat, which is fine. Being grappled can be debilitating, so it might be worth it.
Wood Elf Magic: You know, I think there are some extra spells I'll turn down. Specifically, Longstrider.

[MrStabby]

"Charisma: CHA is great for skill checks. That's about it. Also a candidate for a dump stat."

I know bards can do a lot without Charisma, but there is so much more they can do if it is high - I would say it really shouldn't be a dump stat.

[Kryx]

You've rated spells (some)! Nice! Very happy to see a guide start with spells rated instead of "it'll come in the future" and then it never comes. A guide for a spellcaster isn't a guide without spells being rated imo.

The ratings mostly look good.

Thunderclap deserves to be blue imo. It is an AoE damage cantrip - which a bard has none other of. The other guide on WotC (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4146291)rates it blue.

Hold Person is more Blue than Sky Blue. It's good, but is restricted by only targeting humanoids and having a save every round.

[Rhaegar14]

"Charisma: CHA is great for skill checks. That's about it. Also a candidate for a dump stat."

I know bards can do a lot without Charisma, but there is so much more they can do if it is high - I would say it really shouldn't be a dump stat.

Based on the sky blue rating, and the fact that they cast off Charisma, I'm inclined to believe that this is either sarcasm or a mistake from copying the format of another guide. Either way, it should be changed.

[MrStabby]

You've rated spells (some)! Nice! Very happy to see a guide start with spells rated instead of "it'll come in the future" and then it never comes. A guide for a spellcaster isn't a guide without spells being rated imo.

The ratings mostly look good.

Thunderclap deserves to be blue imo. It is an AoE damage cantrip - which a bard has none other of. The other guide on WotC (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4146291)rates it blue.

Hold Person is more Blue than Sky Blue. It's good, but is restricted by only targeting humanoids and having a save every round.

I don't know - sky blue seems to fit my views on it. It is a bit restrictive yes, but it is an incredibly powerful effect and hits what is often a weak save. For me its value comes from the fact that it remains useful at higher levels - on the right targets cast from a 4th level slot its as game changing as a 4th level spell should be. On the other hand when you are low on resources and only have low level spells the effect on a fight is more powerful than most level 2 spells.

Niche use also as a non-lethal effect if you need one.

[Kryx]

I wouldn't consider Wis to be a low attribute for most monsters. From the monsters I've used it's typically around 12.

The Sorcerer guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4142906) rates it Blue.
The Wizard guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4157906) rates it Sky Blue.
The Warlock guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4133456) rates it blue(using blue as the maximum)
The other bard guide linked above rates it Blue.

I could see it going either way. I lean more toward Blue due to the likelihood of it breaking, but that's just my opinion.

[MrStabby]

Hmm Yes. I suspect we probably don't disagree about how good it is, just where the boundaries lie between colours.

For a sorcerer it is better - proficiency in CON and it being a concentration spell is good. Also quickened hold person is a very nasty trick sometimes. I am surprised it is not rated better for them than the Wizard. Certainly given concentration I might rate it slightly weaker for a melee focuses Valor Bard.

A lot may come down to your DM and how populated the campaign is by monsters and how much by people.

[EvilAnagram]

Thunderclap deserves to be blue imo. It is an AoE damage cantrip - which a bard has none other of. The other guide on WotC (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4146291)rates it blue.

Hold Person is more Blue than Sky Blue. It's good, but is restricted by only targeting humanoids and having a save every round.

I will definitely take this into consideration.

My big problem with Thunderclap, though, is that it's an, "Oh, poop, I'm surrounded," spell that doesn't help very much if you're surrounded. The damage is weak, and it doesn't have any secondary effects that would help you escape being surrounded. For those reasons, a Lore Bard should probably never take it. I can see a Valor Bard using it occasionally, since he'd leap into the fray no matter what, but then you have a spell that's only good for kobold sweeping taking an action that could have been used to kill an enemy. Battle Magic alleviates this a bit, but by then you have better options anyways.


"Charisma: CHA is great for skill checks. That's about it. Also a candidate for a dump stat."

Thanks for this! Really, point out any typos like this. I was going off of one of my other guides, so some typos like this are inevitable. Also, I was very tired. Please don't judge me.

[xroads]

I'd rate Blade Ward as "Not a great choice, but situationally useful" for valor bards.

For valor bards, the spell has more utility at 14th when they can cast and slash. It's a reusable cantrip that aids in defense. So a bard can fight defensively for a bit while waiting for an opportunity to use one of her more powerful spells.

[EvilAnagram]

I'd rate Blade Ward as "Not a great choice, but situationally useful" for valor bards.

For valor bards, the spell has more utility at 14th when they can cast and slash. It's a reusable cantrip that aids in defense. So a bard can fight defensively for a bit while waiting for an opportunity to use one of her more powerful spells.

This is an excellent point. I will adjust.

[xroads]

This is an excellent point. I will adjust.

Thanks.

Also, it just occurred to me that if a bard (both valor & lore), wants to increase the odds of maintaining a concentration spells, then they can cast this spell for a few rounds. Particularly if your opponent is averaging more than 22 points of damage per strike.

[EvilAnagram]

Thanks.

Also, it just occurred to me that if a bard (both valor & lore), wants to increase the odds of maintaining a concentration spells, then they can cast this spell for a few rounds. Particularly if your opponent is averaging more than 22 points of damage per strike.

Here, I think that Dodge is a better option. It's as effective at preventing you from taking damage, and it doesn't entail losing out on another cantrip for this one.

[xroads]

Here, I think that Dodge is a better option. It's as effective at preventing you from taking damage, and it doesn't entail losing out on another cantrip for this one.

True. But I was imagining it might be of more use in situations where the opponent has high odds of hitting regardless of disadvantage.

But then again, I suppose if the players are in a campaign where the bard is regularly being attacked by high damage opponents, regular enough to justify the spell, then there is a problem. :smalleek:

[EvilAnagram]

All spells are rated. Suggestions and vitriol are welcome.

[xroads]

Leomund’s Tiny Hut has the benefit that it is also a ritual. So a bard doesn't need to expend a spell slot to cast it.

Where do you find Thunderclap? I've searched all over the PHB and can't find it.

[ravenlikestea]

Where do you find Thunderclap? I've searched all over the PHB and can't find it.

I believe it's in the elemental evil player's guide.

Also, the spell descriptions here are pretty much perfect. I was suggested by my dm to take modify memory for the same reason that you used to explain the spell.

[some guy]

Not every player wants to play a musical bard, maybe add a reminder that a Component Pouch can also be used instead of a spellcasting focus?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Not every player wants to play a musical bard, maybe add a reminder that a Component Pouch can also be used instead of a spellcasting focus?

This is true. One of my favorite bards is an opportunistic, abrasive mercenary who lies, bluffs or threatens to get what he wants. The though of him using anything more musical than a war-horn just doesn't fit the character.

[EvilAnagram]

I can add the bit about component pouches, though war horns are perfect for a Valor Bard's focus.

Also, I'm almost done with the Feats, and I'm finished with the multiclassing.

[Spacehamster]

Great weapon master should not be red at least not for valor bard or mc paladin/bard. :)

[EvilAnagram]

Great weapon master should not be red at least not for valor bard or mc paladin/bard. :)

I agree, I don't know what I was thinking there.

All feats are completed. The guide is finished.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

A STR based valor bard, or even a mountain dwarf lore bard could get a use out of Heavy Armor. Niche yes, but it exists.

[EvilAnagram]

A STR based valor bard, or even a mountain dwarf lore bard could get a use out of Heavy Armor. Niche yes, but it exists.

A STR Valor Bard can get 17 AC with Medium armor without getting too MAD. I don't buy that +1 AC is worth the feat. At least Medium Armor Master also provides a decent secondary benefit. Still, I suppose some might see value in it.

[Citan]

I'm waiting to see what you suggestions will be for multiclassing. ;)

May I propose some pists? ^^

1. Paladin: a few dips can mean a lot for a Combat oriented Bard:
- level 1 for Fighting Style, but more importantly...
level 2 for Smites.
- level 3 if you can go Oath of Devotion (+CHA to attack rolls for a minute per short rest, works on ranged too so perfect on a Ranged Valor Bard).
- Investing more means sacricifing high level spells and some features will overlap (such as Extra attack), so good only if you plan on being a Smiting Bard with occasional spellcasting or your primary goal is versatility in any situation instead of focused efficiency (in which case Paladin 6 / Lore Bard 14 or Paladin 8 / Bard 12 are good choices).

2. Fighter: 2 levels for Action Surge (and Fighting Style, Second Wind) are always good for anybody.

3. Sorcerer: 1 level dip can be interesting in some cases (Draconic Origin for a DEX-focused character, Storm Origin to get free Disengage on spellcast, Favored Soul for extra lvl1 spells).
Getting more levels has a sense only if you're ready to invest quite a few levels to make fun with Metamagic imo. Which also means you sacrifice high-level spells. Otherwise, you'd better cherry pick interesting spells with Magic Secrets.

4. Warlock: 2 levels for Eldricht Blast and related Invocations, 3rd level for all goodness (recommended choice: Pact of Tome: cantrips + find familiar + other ritual). You can also forego EB combo and get very nice invocations for RP or combat (Free Mage Armor, Free Disguise Self, free proficiencies in Persuasion and Intimidation etc).

5. Rogue: even 1 level dip is good for expertise, but really the best is getting to Archetype at level 3: Assassin is situational but great when successful, OR Swashbuckler gives you nice boost to Initiative, free Disengage against enemies you attacked and 2d6 bonus damage per turn.

As for the other classes, they could be nice to multiclass into for some concepts but brings MAD on the table. Except the Barbarian, but since you can't cast magic while raging it would severely limit your playstyle (basically smite your slots while raging. Can be fun though :))

If you can afford it though 1 or 2 levels can be nice: Life Cleric 1 to empower your healing, War/Storm Cleric to get heavy armor, 1 Druid for Wild Shape (RP only) and spells/cantrips (although Cleric lvl1 brings many specific good spells -Bless, Command, Guiding Bolt- whereas Druid as ~40% spells in common with Bard)...

Or go become a lvl 2 Divination Wizard to add Portent to your Bardic Inspiration and become a God of Fate... ^^

Ranger seems uninteresting for me (as a Bard main): you could get Fighting Style from Fighter, pick a Ranger spell through Magic Secrets, and Horde Breaker is not good enough to waste three levels.

My two cents :)

EDIT: Ahem, I saved this post from before, didn't see that you published your multiclass recommendations meanwhile. With that said, my post seems complementary since going more in detail. ;)

[MrStabby]

I have to say I think you have slightly undersold the Cleric multiclass.

One level in life cleric gets you weapon and armour proficiency - great for a strength based Valor bard. Life domain also gives you a solid boost to healing. As it is a full caster you still get all the same slots.

Nature cleric does similar but lets you take shillelagh as a cantrip - you can be a valor bard with wisdom as your attack stat if you want (and heavy armour still).

A level of knowledge cleric is superb for RP reasons.

Getting guidance as a cantrip is a nice touch if you are playing bard as a skill focussed character.

[EvilAnagram]

One level in life cleric gets you weapon and armour proficiency - great for a strength based Valor bard. Life domain also gives you a solid boost to healing. As it is a full caster you still get all the same slots.
The benefits you get from this are weighed out by the fact that the Cure Wounds you get uses your WIS (dump stat), as do any other spells you use from the Cleric list. At best, you get a little bit of a healing boost and heavy armor proficiency.


Nature cleric does similar but lets you take shillelagh as a cantrip - you can be a valor bard with wisdom as your attack stat if you want (and heavy armour still).
Being able to attack with a dump stat isn't a selling point. Even if you're suggesting dumping Strength instead, you're not decreasing the MAD at all.


A level of knowledge cleric is superb for RP reasons.
An optimization guide doesn't cover RP, even if it's a Bard guide.


Getting guidance as a cantrip is a nice touch if you are playing bard as a skill focussed character.
Bards are skill-focused no matter what. Guidance isn't much help when you have a +14 to your skill already. Besides, you can get that with Magical Secrets.

Every class offers something, but Cleric doesn't offer nearly enough. I don't like the idea of giving up a single ASI for heavy armor, let alone a whole level.

[MrStabby]

The benefits you get from this are weighed out by the fact that the Cure Wounds you get uses your WIS (dump stat), as do any other spells you use from the Cleric list. At best, you get a little bit of a healing boost and heavy armor proficiency.


Being able to attack with a dump stat isn't a selling point. Even if you're suggesting dumping Strength instead, you're not decreasing the MAD at all.


An optimization guide doesn't cover RP, even if it's a Bard guide.


Bards are skill-focused no matter what. Guidance isn't much help when you have a +14 to your skill already. Besides, you can get that with Magical Secrets.

Every class offers something, but Cleric doesn't offer nearly enough. I don't like the idea of giving up a single ASI for heavy armour, let alone a whole level.

Re life:You wouldn't use cure wounds if you were a life cleric. Stick with healing words as a bonus action to get people back into the fight, but with more hitpoints. Cleric spells like bless are solid and don't need wisdom. You can also use magical secrets to get the paladin healing aura spell for good sustained healing.

RE Nature: Yes, I was suggesting dumping strength rather than wisdom. I admit the advantages to this are small - wisdom saves, perception are the main ones. The aim isn't to become less MAD but to provide a viable alternative.

RE Roleplay: Point taken, although possibly a comment is due at the top that the purpose is to make the bard more efficient not to help people have more fun. This is reasonable, there are other guides for that.

RE Skills/Guidance: Guidance isn't a huge thing for the class but it is a nice thing to have on top of all the other abilities. Just another spell that you don't need wisdom for and enhances your strengths. If people don't want to just be good at skills but the best possible at things, then this may be attractive to them. You are right you could get this with magical secrets - but you could also save those for something else with this dip.


My view is that none of the things here alone are worth a dip for. It is the cumulation of:
more spells known / available
Armour proficiency (weapon as well but less of an attractive thing for a lore bard)
A couple of really strong spells
A level 1 ability - life domain fits in well

The costs are also manageable - 13 Wisdom is all you need and so many good level 1 cleric spells don't need high wisdom. Yes, some of these are also on the bard list but it lets you take more bard spells. Don't forget you will learn the domain spells as well.

I am not trying to say I think it is great as a choice - just that it is solid enough to consider and that it does bring some enhancements if that is what you want. I was of the view that red was a bit harsh (but I will say red seems about right for the druid).

[EvilAnagram]

Re life:You wouldn't use cure wounds if you were a life cleric. Stick with healing words as a bonus action to get people back into the fight, but with more hitpoints.
The boost Life domain gives you only surpasses the difference between you CHA and WIS modifiers at much higher levels.


Cleric spells like bless are solid and don't need wisdom. You can also use magical secrets to get the paladin healing aura spell for good sustained healing.
True.


RE Roleplay: Point taken, although possibly a comment is due at the top that the purpose is to make the bard more efficient not to help people have more fun. This is reasonable, there are other guides for that.
I like to think that there is room for both fun and efficiency, but that's a reasonable suggestion.


The rest
You make a convincing enough argument to bump it up to purple. I'll use some of what you've suggested.

Still, with most characters, the 13 Wis will be a bit difficult. Most solid Bard races don't have Wis as a stat boost, and so you have to give one of your highest stats to a dump stat.

[MrStabby]

The boost Life domain gives you only surpasses the difference between you CHA and WIS modifiers at much higher levels.


True.

RE Nature: Yes, I was suggesting dumping strength rather than wisdom. I admit the advantages to this are small - wisdom saves, perception are the main ones. The aim isn't to become less MAD but to provide a viable alternative.


I like to think that there is room for both fun and efficiency, but that's a reasonable suggestion.


You make a convincing enough argument to bump it up to purple. I'll use some of what you've suggested.

Still, with most characters, the 13 Wis will be a bit difficult. Most solid Bard races don't have Wis as a stat boost, and so you have to give one of your highest stats to a dump stat.

Purple sounds within the range of what I would consider (I would say black but perhaps not as i would never say take more than 1 level of cleric if you plan to main class bard).

My OCD nature still requires me to address one last thing though... Disciple of life boosts ANY healing spell, not just cleric spells. You still use healing word as a bard spell (or mass healing word or whatever) but you restore extra hitpoints from the disciple of life.

[EvilAnagram]

Purple sounds within the range of what I would consider (I would say black but perhaps not as i would never say take more than 1 level of cleric if you plan to main class bard).

My OCD nature still requires me to address one last thing though... Disciple of life boosts ANY healing spell, not just cleric spells. You still use healing word as a bard spell (or mass healing word or whatever) but you restore extra hitpoints from the disciple of life.

But you're learning all of those spells a level later, and you still have cleric healing spells prepared that are useless to you. The drawbacks keep this combination from being terribly powerful.

[Citan]

The benefits you get from this are weighed out by the fact that the Cure Wounds you get uses your WIS (dump stat), as do any other spells you use from the Cleric list. At best, you get a little bit of a healing boost and heavy armor proficiency.

Being able to attack with a dump stat isn't a selling point. Even if you're suggesting dumping Strength instead, you're not decreasing the MAD at all.

An optimization guide doesn't cover RP, even if it's a Bard guide.


Bards are skill-focused no matter what. Guidance isn't much help when you have a +14 to your skill already. Besides, you can get that with Magical Secrets.

Every class offers something, but Cleric doesn't offer nearly enough. I don't like the idea of giving up a single ASI for heavy armor, let alone a whole level.

A few notes again (wonder if anyone read my previous post? ^^).
1. Life Cleric: your critic is irrelevant for two reasons: one, the bonus is not dependent on a stat but only on spell level. Two, the bard has many good healing spells on his own spell list (and can get Aura if needed).
Also, sorry but... "The boost Life domain gives you only surpasses the difference between you CHA and WIS modifiers at much higher levels." Well, consider a character starting CHA 16 / WIS 13: your always prepared Cure Wounds already heals the same "as plain Bard" or "as Life Cleric". Would be the same with CHA 18 / WIS 14. If you decide to learn it as Bard, it's like a 2nd level spell cast as lvl1. :)
War cleric: a few bonus attacks from level 2, heavy armor proficiency (good for STR oriented Valor, no?), free cantrip.

2. Cleric/Druid: Guidance is very very good in itself: it's usable on anything, everytime. Free for abuse and complements Jack of All Trade very well for a "proficiency-like" bonus. Although if you only need it best use a Magic Initiate feat.

3. Cleric/Druid: each of the class provides several spells who don't depend on spellcasting ability to be efficient:
- Bless (Cleric): always nice for the team.
- Sanctuary / Shield of Faith (Cleric): "free" protect spells.
- Guiding Bolt / Command (Cleric): usable if you have advantage, otherwise indeed...
- Absorb Elements (Druid): no-concentration reaction spell for resistance to incoming damage and SCALING BONUS ELEMENTAL DAMAGE on next attack. Perfect for a Valor Bard.
- Animal Friendship / Detect *** / Healing Word&Cure Wounds / Jump/Longstrider: all these spells on the Bard list that could be interesting but didn't seem worth enough. Well, now you know them all!!!

4. Druid: WildShape for much more RP and scouting possibilities.

5. Shillelagh and general "Why would your WIS be 13 or more anyways" ? Well, why not? Getting 13 just for multiclass may be worth it considering all it brings.
For some multiclass builds, being WIS+CHA based instead of DEX+CHA based is not the end of the world with Shillelagh or Magic Stone. Athough it makes Warcaster absolutely necessary (and Resilient could be recommended).

So, I strongly advocate for Cleric and Druid to be at least both black: getting lots of free known and usable spells and additional benefits just for a stat requirement seems nice enough to me.
Especially when Barbarian is black (not being able to cast spells seems not a light requirement to me) and Ranger is purple (generally worse than other fighting classes and has WIS requirement).

Also, on Feats, I really don't understand why Magic Initiate is so high while Ritual Caster is so low. Sure, getting an upgradable lvl1 spell is nice. But you can just pick up Magic Secrets.
Contrarily, Ritual Caster brings you a pack of situational to very useful spells, generally not dependent on stat, and which further frees the Bard's memory to focus on exclusive non-ritual spells. Only drawback is the WIS or INT requirement (remember your question "why is your WIS 13" ?).
I'd propose Ritual Caster rating to be purple by default (low WIS/INT), black if WIS 13 and blue if INT 13 (because wizard has best ritual list and Find Familiar!!).

Thanks for reading. :)

[EvilAnagram]

1. Life Cleric: your critic is irrelevant for two reasons: one, the bonus is not dependent on a stat but only on spell level. Two, the bard has many good healing spells on his own spell list (and can get Aura if needed).
Also, sorry but... "The boost Life domain gives you only surpasses the difference between you CHA and WIS modifiers at much higher levels." Well, consider a character starting CHA 16 / WIS 13: your always prepared Cure Wounds already heals the same "as plain Bard" or "as Life Cleric". Would be the same with CHA 18 / WIS 14. If you decide to learn it as Bard, it's like a 2nd level spell cast as lvl1. :)
There is no reason to pump a Bard up to 14 WIS. It provides absolutely nothing. You even said yourself that it makes your heal equal to just using a Bard spell, which is wasting a level. Furthermore, you probably shouldn't multiclass until after you hit at least one ASI, so the Bard should have an 18 CHA with a 13 WIS at most. The gulf is not breached.


War cleric: a few bonus attacks from level 2, heavy armor proficiency (good for STR oriented Valor, no?), free cantrip.
STR based Valor Bards are a bit too MAD for my taste, and having to throw in at least 13 points into WIS just makes it worse. The benefit is not worth it.


2. Cleric/Druid: Guidance is very very good in itself: it's usable on anything, everytime. Free for abuse and complements Jack of All Trade very well for a "proficiency-like" bonus. Although if you only need it best use a Magic Initiate feat.
Guidance is okay. I have seen it in play, and it is perfectly fine. It is not worth a level. I question using Magical Secrets to get it. Being good at every skill and fantastic at several makes Guidance's d4 questionably useful at best.


3. Cleric/Druid: each of the class provides several spells who don't depend on spellcasting ability to be efficient:
- Bless (Cleric): always nice for the team.
- Sanctuary / Shield of Faith (Cleric): "free" protect spells.
- Guiding Bolt / Command (Cleric): usable if you have advantage, otherwise indeed...
- Absorb Elements (Druid): no-concentration reaction spell for resistance to incoming damage and SCALING BONUS ELEMENTAL DAMAGE on next attack. Perfect for a Valor Bard.
- Animal Friendship / Detect *** / Healing Word&Cure Wounds / Jump/Longstrider: all these spells on the Bard list that could be interesting but didn't seem worth enough. Well, now you know them all!!!
Everything here can be attained through Magic Initiate or Magical Secrets.


Well, why not?
It increases MAD with few benefits to balance this out, especially for Druids.


Getting 13 just for multiclass may be worth it considering all it brings.
The benefits are not worth the level(s), especially for Druids.

You convinced me to drop the Barbarian rating, though.


Also, on Feats
Magic Initiate is another Magical Secrets you can take without much setback, depending on stats. Ritual Casting provides access to situational spells in other classes that may or may not be helpful, and you're already a ritual caster.

[Citan]

There is no reason to pump a Bard up to 14 WIS. It provides absolutely nothing. You even said yourself that it makes your heal equal to just using a Bard spell, which is wasting a level. Furthermore, you probably shouldn't multiclass until after you hit at least one ASI, so the Bard should have an 18 CHA with a 13 WIS at most. The gulf is not breached.

My point with the Healing comparison was to prove that even if you cast Cure Wounds "as a cleric" it was nearly still as effective as a Bard learning it at level 1. And more effective with a decent WIS (which, by the way, could always help against many nasty spells since you are not proficient in it and can't use Bardic Inspiration on self). And becomes great as soon as you learn (as Bard obviously) better healing spells, becoming as good as a pure non-Life cleric.
Also, saying "Magic Secrets serves that purpose" is untrue: you can only cherry-pick some spells (and clearly you should use this to pick high-level spells anyways). While here you automatically learn all spells.

Well anyways, we clearly have different views on the benefit of having 10 useful spells always known and 2 always prepared (or WS), so I won't argue further.

Same with Ritual Caster: being able to learn "free" rituals from Wizard (which is Bard's list ++) or even Cleric/Druid seems far more interesting for me than getting two cantrips and one spell (especially since you can already get a specific spell with Magic Secrets, and they are MANY feats that bring more distinctive features to a spellcaster).
I'll stop here since we are now in a question of mutual-respected opposing opinions. :) And it's your guide after all! ^_^

Have a nice day!

[Pyon]

Hey, great stuff here! Could I just ask that you add a "suggested magical secrets" portion? Like 5 or 6 spells you consider completely necessary or at least a basis on what to choose.

[Sigreid]

I know it's not exactly what you're looking at here but bard can make a solid dip for a wizard to get that sweet expertise on some of those knowledge skills he is likely to be the only one that has without actually costing him any spell slots (though he'll get to the higher level spells a tad slower).

Yeah, I know that belongs in the wizards guide but I'm tossing it out there for anyone who's looking at bard in order to be a mr. know it all.

[Hawkstar]

A STR Valor Bard can get 17 AC with Medium armor without getting too MAD. I don't buy that +1 AC is worth the feat. At least Medium Armor Master also provides a decent secondary benefit. Still, I suppose some might see value in it.

If you're a STR-based Valor bard, DEX becomes a VERY low priority stat. +1 AC isn't worth the feat. +3, though, is.

[EvilAnagram]

I'll stop here since we are now in a question of mutual-respected opposing opinions. :) And it's your guide after all! ^_^

Have a nice day!

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I was on vacation, and internet access was nonexistent. Then, I had to prepare for Gencon.

I think you raise excellent points, but I think we're just in disagreement over the relative worth of certain features. Thanks for your input, though, and especially thanks for the positivity!


Hey, great stuff here! Could I just ask that you add a "suggested magical secrets" portion? Like 5 or 6 spells you consider completely necessary or at least a basis on what to choose.

There's no way to narrow that down, though. Depending on your focus, there may or may not be any spells that are "necessary" to your build. Do you want blasting? Pick the spell that lets you do the most damage. Do you want Illusion or Charm spells? Pick one you don't already have access to. Maybe a Valor Bard wants some smites. Maybe a Lore Bard wants to keep people away from him. Maybe any Bard wants to be able to escape nasty situations. There are just too many spells for me to narrow everything down without my having to sift through every spell in the book, and none of them are absolutely necessary.


If you're a STR-based Valor bard, DEX becomes a VERY low priority stat. +1 AC isn't worth the feat. +3, though, is.
It's not one feat, though. At the very minimum, it's two feats or a feat and a multiclass level. I'm not convinced it's worth the effort for that.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

It's not one feat, though. At the very minimum, it's two feats or a feat and a multiclass level. I'm not convinced it's worth the effort for that.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What's the second feat? You either take the heavy armor feat at 4, or multiclass to get all the proficiencies you need. Taking the feat allows you to completely ignore Dex, since you get around the bard's multiclass requirements.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What's the second feat? You either take the heavy armor feat at 4, or multiclass to get all the proficiencies you need. Taking the feat allows you to completely ignore Dex, since you get around the bard's multiclass requirements.

Sorry, I was thinking of Heavy Armor Master.

I'm not saying that it's the worst idea ever, but let's look at the projection of a Valor Bard from first level who wants to dump DEX in favor of STR. There are some immediate disadvantages:


Dumps a common save for an uncommon save.
Dumps a stat that's the basis for several skills for one that bumps one skill.
Lowers his initiative.


On the positive side, he bumps his max damage up an average of 2.5 HP per attack at the most, unless he multiclasses or takes another feat. In order to get a significant increase in damage potential, he has to eschew the use of a shield in favor of heavier weapons.

Of course, he won't get to deal that damage quite yet. Before he can be a solid melee attacker, he has to get through two levels with an AC of 11 and get through 1-2 levels with a max AC of 13-14 in order to finally gain an AC of 16-17. Then, wait until he can afford Plate.

OR

He could keep his Dex at a reasonable 14, spend his first two levels with an AC of 13, then bump it up to a reasonable 17-18 at level 3.

I'm not saying that Heavy Armor is useless or that a Valor Bard couldn't get any use out of it, but in order to be successful the Bard would have to either start at level 5 or spend a few levels unable to effectively fight in melee, making his high STR useless. It's fine for a Fighter/Bard multiclass, or even a Cleric/Bard multiclass, but it's very niche and its benefits are rather dubious compared to simply pumping up the DEX of your Valor Bard and giving him a shield. In fact, a STR Valor Bard with plate and a shield is on the same level as a DEX Valor Bard with Half-Plate and a shield, except the DEX Bard will have a higher initiative and can dodge spells more easily.

It's a niche build, that's why it's purple. Purple is for niche options.

[TekDragon]

But you're learning all of those spells a level later, and you still have cleric healing spells prepared that are useless to you. The drawbacks keep this combination from being terribly powerful.

I have to say, I disagree here. I don't think you're really thinking of the long term benefit to the party a bard gets from this.

One level of Life Cleric is great. Aside from bless (one of the best buffs in the game), guidance (fantastic for everyone in the party), the heavy armor, and the +3 to healing word, you're also getting +5 HP every time you *USE* Aura of Vitality.

That means 2d6 (7) times 10 becomes 2d6+5 (12) times 10. That moves your average from 70 HP healed to 120 HP healed, and it can be spread around the party as you see fit. That's freaking amazing.

A Lore Bard can get 100% of that benefit from level 6, or a Valor Bard from 10. That's countless episodes of content the Bard can be tanking better (heavy armor with shield spell), buffing better, and healing better than anyone else in the party.

What are you giving up for it? Superior Inspiration? Cmon man. You need to think.

[Navigator]

I have a list of all possible core spells that can be taken with Magical Secrets picks:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ad9xzK8ISo6zpUQP_lxJD_ToWXd6_vhqE7STZSHnUzg/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to use in any way. I'm also not 100% on the accuracy as this list comes from a SQL query. I found only one mistake but if you see more just let me know!

[EvilAnagram]

I have a list of all possible core spells that can be taken with Magical Secrets picks:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ad9xzK8ISo6zpUQP_lxJD_ToWXd6_vhqE7STZSHnUzg/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to use in any way. I'm also not 100% on the accuracy as this list comes from a SQL query. I found only one mistake but if you see more just let me know!

That's awesome! I'll put this in and give you due credit.

[RuneBound]

Hello EvilAnagram,

First and foremost, your guide is excellent and very meticulously done.

Just one small comment, I do think that healing word should be sky blue. Healing word serves as a way to get your allies on their feet during battle. This is more than emergency healing. Even good party get take a hit, and that's why healing word is so important. You get an ally on his/her feet while still attacking (Bonus action), this is great in my vocabulary. This is the best healing spell in combat and in my humble opinion, far superior to cure wounds. After combat, you can hope that your friends brought heir healing potions and got non-magical healing abilities as you soothe them with song of rest...

All the best,
R.

[EvilAnagram]

R.

Thank you for the feedback. I feel like I've just been handed a wonderfully handwritten letter from a particularly polite field mouse.

I ranked Healing Word on par with Cure Wounds because, while it only uses a bonus action, it doesn't heal all that much, so the spells seem on par to me. It's certainly a better choice for a Valor Bard, but Lore Bards might want to stick with Cure Wounds, as casting is most of what they do regardless.

[Citan]

I have to say, I disagree here. I don't think you're really thinking of the long term benefit to the party a bard gets from this.

One level of Life Cleric is great. Aside from bless (one of the best buffs in the game), guidance (fantastic for everyone in the party), the heavy armor, and the +3 to healing word, you're also getting +5 HP every time you *USE* Aura of Vitality.

That means 2d6 (7) times 10 becomes 2d6+5 (12) times 10. That moves your average from 70 HP healed to 120 HP healed, and it can be spread around the party as you see fit. That's freaking amazing.

A Lore Bard can get 100% of that benefit from level 6, or a Valor Bard from 10. That's countless episodes of content the Bard can be tanking better (heavy armor with shield spell), buffing better, and healing better than anyone else in the party.

What are you giving up for it? Superior Inspiration? Cmon man. You need to think.
Hi all!
Strongly agree here. 1-lvl dip for Life Cleric greatly improves buff/heal capacities. Since you also get usual Life Cleric prepared spells, you can also prepare Sanctuary or Shield of Faith.

At low levels, since we agree (I think) that Healing Word is the best in-combat spell but has low HP recovery, by adding 3HP at lvl 1 cast, you give a much higher chance for cured ally to not be down straight again next round at low levels. With starting stats of 18 CHA (let's be optimistic), you go from 1d4+4 (avg 6,5) to 1d4+4+3 (9,5), ~50% increase, not far from a Cure Wounds.
Later, Aura of Vitality combo or just Gooberries cheesiness (although it's a bit sad to use a Magic Secrets on lvl1 spell, could use Magic Initiate or lvl 1 Druid). :=)

[EvilAnagram]

Snip

I've been convinced that the Cleric is a reasonably decent dip, but it's still MAD, only works for a few builds, and still delays you spell learning. It's decent, but the barrier to entry (13 Wis) and the limited benefits (the spellcasting just mitigates the delay in Bard progression, you're only here for the Life feature) means it stays purple. it can't go above black. Enough people seem to really enjoy those Domain features, I suppose. Might as well upgrade it to reflect that.

[EKruze]

I just recently got to level 14 on my Lore Bard and would suggest that Peerless Skill probably deserves a Sky Blue rating. Ability checks go beyond just skill rolls and includes Dispel/Counterspell rolls if you have those spells and also the most commonly rolled ability check of them all: Initiative.

Adding a D10 or at level 15 a D12 to an initiative check already boosted by Jack of All Trades gives Lore Bards a high likelihood to go first in any give combat scenario. There are so many options to disable opponents at this level that the first striking ability provided by Peerless Skill is unmatched in its utility.

[PrismaRiyo]

Hi all,
So in a game I'm playing now I started out as a bard without any plans for multiclassing but our DM gave as an RP moment where one of us could choose to take Warlock levels (pact of the fey), and eventually I took the opportunity.
I ended up taking 2 warlock levels and then 1 bard level so now I'm bard 6 warlock 2.

We're about to level up again and I've been wondering if I should take a 3rd warlock level, so I can get 2nd level spell slots and a pact boon.

I don't know if we are going to reach that high, but so far I didnt really mind what I was losing from the bard, but level 18 is where you get more magical secrets.

So what do you guys think? Is it worth it to go warlock 3 or should I just stick with bard from now on? And if I should take another warlock level, What pact is better chain or tome? ( blade seems underwhelming to me)

Thanks in advance.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Hi all,
So in a game I'm playing now I started out as a bard without any plans for multiclassing but our DM gave as an RP moment where one of us could choose to take Warlock levels (pact of the fey), and eventually I took the opportunity.
I ended up taking 2 warlock levels and then 1 bard level so now I'm bard 6 warlock 2.

We're about to level up again and I've been wondering if I should take a 3rd warlock level, so I can get 2nd level spell slots and a pact boon.

I don't know if we are going to reach that high, but so far I didnt really mind what I was losing from the bard, but level 18 is where you get more magical secrets.

So what do you guys think? Is it worth it to go warlock 3 or should I just stick with bard from now on? And if I should take another warlock level, What pact is better chain or tome? ( blade seems underwhelming to me)

Thanks in advance.

I don't think another Warlock level is worth it, except at extreme high level. You don't get enough to justify delaying your Bard progression further - Level 2 pact slots and the boon aren't really worth it. You won't be dooming yourself to eternal mediocrity if you do it or anything, but I just wouldn't call it the better option.

If you do decide to, then I'd probably recommend Chain over Tome, as the latter really needs Book of Ancient Secrets to shine, and BoAS works off Warlock level. Your analysis of Blade is very much correct - it's respectable for a pure warlock, but rubbish for a dip (Tome is merely somewhat unspectacular - the Cantrip utility isn't as much of a boost for you as it would have been for a full Warlock).

[Crusher]

Any suggestions on building a bardcher?

[EvilAnagram]

Peerless Skill
Point well made. I'll consider it.


Bardlock
I would go for the extra level of Warlock. There are enough second level spells that are consistently worth casting regularly to justify it, and familiars can be insanely useful through the Chain Pact.


Any suggestions on building a bardcher?

Pump Dex and snag Swift Quiver with your secrets.

[Crusher]

Thanks.

Btw, superb guide.

[Polarthief]

Hey there, new to the forum, hope I'm not necroing all that much.

EvilAnagram, I want to say thank you so much for making this guide. I'm new to D&D as a whole and will be playing my first game ever come Wednesday! Thanks to your guide (and others' guides), I was able to at least start my character relatively painless. Was super overwhelmed by possibilities, but having them all posted in one place is so helpful.

Also had a question if someone wouldn't mind answering, would it be dumb to try a LoreBard (15)/TomeLock (5) [or possibly 17/3] for a support/utility, buff/debuff kind of character? Was thinking of picking up Devil's Sight (120 feet 100% darkvision magical and non), Agonizing Blast, and the Tome Ritual invocations and just having like all the cantrips, all the spells, and all the... everything really. Again, this is my first time ever playing so if it's blatantly stupid, let me know! 15 Bard was mostly for Inspiration d12; don't really care about an extra 2 maximum on the Song of Rest, Superior or Superior Inspiration. Sucks I miss out on some Magical Secrets and a feat/2 ability points, but I feel like the extra Spell Slots (2 3rd-level) that reset on short rests, the extras 6+ spells (plus 3 cantrips and Tome rituals), and the 3 invocations are worth it, right?
(Edit: Another option might be 14/6?)

One last thing, using the above scenario and assuming I'm doing Adventure's League (where Ability spread is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and I'm a Dragonborn), would it be smart to do 15 Cha (16 from DB), 14 Dex, 13 Wis, 12 Con, 10 Int, and 8 Str (10 from DB), or would there be a better spread? Eldritch Blast will probably be my main damaging attack (will be going Bard 1 Warlock 2 (or 3), so I'll have EB very early!), though I'll have a rapier for melee and whatever Magical Secrets and other stuff I pick up.


Thanks again EvilAnagram, contributors to the guide, and other guide makers, you guys really made this as painless as possible <3 (PS: Might try making a Sorc using your guide if I want a second character sometime)

[EvilAnagram]

EvilAnagram, I want to say thank you so much for making this guide. I'm new to D&D as a whole and will be playing my first game ever come Wednesday! Thanks to your guide (and others' guides), I was able to at least start my character relatively painless. Was super overwhelmed by possibilities, but having them all posted in one place is so helpful.
You're welcome! I'm glad I was able to help.



Also had a question if someone wouldn't mind answering, would it be dumb to try a LoreBard (15)/TomeLock (5) [or possibly 17/3] for a support/utility, buff/debuff kind of character? Was thinking of picking up Devil's Sight (120 feet 100% darkvision magical and non), Agonizing Blast, and the Tome Ritual invocations and just having like all the cantrips, all the spells, and all the... everything really. Again, this is my first time ever playing so if it's blatantly stupid, let me know! 15 Bard was mostly for Inspiration d12; don't really care about an extra 2 maximum on the Song of Rest, Superior or Superior Inspiration. Sucks I miss out on some Magical Secrets and a feat/2 ability points, but I feel like the extra Spell Slots (2 3rd-level) that reset on short rests, the extras 6+ spells (plus 3 cantrips and Tome rituals), and the 3 invocations are worth it, right?
(Edit: Another option might be 14/6?)
In general, a Bardlock is a perfectly viable choice, and you in particular seem to have thought yours through pretty well. However, I would caution you not to plan your character for what he looks like at level 20. In fact, you're almost guaranteed not to reach level 20 in Adventurer's League play. You're going to be spending the bulk of your time between levels 5 and 12, which means you should plan your build to become viable around that time.

The key to a successful multiclass build is identifying your exit points - the levels you absolutely need to reach to enjoy yourself with that class' features. For Warlocks, second or third levels are usually decent exit points. For Lore Bards, sticking around until level 6 is common.


One last thing, using the above scenario and assuming I'm doing Adventure's League (where Ability spread is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and I'm a Dragonborn), would it be smart to do 15 Cha (16 from DB), 14 Dex, 13 Wis, 12 Con, 10 Int, and 8 Str (10 from DB), or would there be a better spread? Eldritch Blast will probably be my main damaging attack (will be going Bard 1 Warlock 2 (or 3), so I'll have EB very early!), though I'll have a rapier for melee and whatever Magical Secrets and other stuff I pick up.
That's a decent spread. I might recommend switching your Wis and Con around since taking the Resilient Con feat is always a good choice for casters thanks to Concentration checks.


Thanks again EvilAnagram, contributors to the guide, and other guide makers, you guys really made this as painless as possible <3 (PS: Might try making a Sorc using your guide if I want a second character sometime)
Thanks, I'm really glad to hear that!

[Polarthief]

In general, a Bardlock is a perfectly viable choice, and you in particular seem to have thought yours through pretty well. However, I would caution you not to plan your character for what he looks like at level 20. In fact, you're almost guaranteed not to reach level 20 in Adventurer's League play. You're going to be spending the bulk of your time between levels 5 and 12, which means you should plan your build to become viable around that time.

I always plan out stuff even if I'm Level 1, just to have a general plan to make sure I'm not screwed later down the line. I definitely plan to stay flexible based on the party's needs (as I will be primarily a support-y, skillmonkey, utility player with some blasting power), but I like having a plan to at least start with. Flexibility will definitely come into play regarding when/where I take the rest of my Bard levels vs Warlock levels (the only thing for sure is I will go B1/W3, and then from there it depends).


The key to a successful multiclass build is identifying your exit points - the levels you absolutely need to reach to enjoy yourself with that class' features. For Warlocks, second or third levels are usually decent exit points. For Lore Bards, sticking around until level 6 is common.

I want to stick around in Bard for the majority of my character for the support-y nature and the extra spell slots as well. My main concern was my exit point for Warlock, as I see 3 (for the Tome and 2nd level slots instead of 1st), 5 (for 3rd level spell slots and an extra Invocation), and now even 6 (for Pact ability 2, though unlikely I will since I like Inspiration d12 and 8th level spell slot) as potential exit points. My biggest concerns included losing a feat/2 Ability Points and not obtaining a 9th level spell slot.

That said though, I don't have any plans to get a third class, though my second option instead of Warlock was Sorc, but that'll be for another day.

My other large concern was my Invocations which I feel are dumb, but I like the choices. Devil's Sight (120' bright light darkvision in magical and non), Book of Ancient Secrets (Tome gets 2 1st level rituals and I can add rituals up to Level 3 [assuming I go Warlock 5] into my book), and Agonizing Blast (+Cha modifier to EB? Yes please!) are my main three atm. Idk, I just feel like Devil's Sight is a dumb choice, but I find the uses for it amazing (especially combined with Darkness and having Adv on all my attacks + EBs and them having Disadv on all their attacks).

Also wasn't sure about which patron to pick; will probably go Fey though.


That's a decent spread. I might recommend switching your Wis and Con around since taking the Resilient Con feat is always a good choice for casters thanks to Concentration checks.

I must have read that feat 10 times, but it never stuck in my mind. Having proficiency on Con would be pretty nice for sure! (plus it only uses one of my two ability points for that. Very nice)

Would you say Con would be better for my build overall than Wis? Like I said, this is my first time playing so I wasn't sure how much I was going to be hit vs the extra Wis


Thanks, I'm really glad to hear that!

For sure! Also love the humor. Too many guides were just bland and objective. Reading lines like "I like having advantage. This does that thing that I like." (regarding Faerie Fire) is always a joy to read (and glad to see it stick through your other guides too!) ;) Thanks again for being awesome!

[EvilAnagram]

I always plan out stuff even if I'm Level 1, just to have a general plan to make sure I'm not screwed later down the line. I definitely plan to stay flexible based on the party's needs (as I will be primarily a support-y, skillmonkey, utility player with some blasting power), but I like having a plan to at least start with. Flexibility will definitely come into play regarding when/where I take the rest of my Bard levels vs Warlock levels (the only thing for sure is I will go B1/W3, and then from there it depends).
It's fine to have an idea for what you want it to look like at high levels. My point was simply thay the most important thing is that you have a strong character for levels you will spend the most time playing (5-12).



I want to stick around in Bard for the majority of my character for the support-y nature and the extra spell slots as well. My main concern was my exit point for Warlock, as I see 3 (for the Tome and 2nd level slots instead of 1st), 5 (for 3rd level spell slots and an extra Invocation), and now even 6 (for Pact ability 2, though unlikely I will since I like Inspiration d12 and 8th level spell slot) as potential exit points. My biggest concerns included losing a feat/2 Ability Points and not obtaining a 9th level spell slot.
Don't worry about your ninth level. It's rarely a major game changer. And while normally ASIs are a big concern, your only real concern should be on Charisma and maybe getting Resilient Con. Other than that, ASIs won't be terribly important for you, so you can miss a few. If you feel like you're lagging on level four, stick with another Warlock level for the ASI. Otherwise, don't worry about it.




My other large concern was my Invocations which I feel are dumb, but I like the choices. Devil's Sight (120' bright light darkvision in magical and non), Book of Ancient Secrets (Tome gets 2 1st level rituals and I can add rituals up to Level 3 [assuming I go Warlock 5] into my book), and Agonizing Blast (+Cha modifier to EB? Yes please!) are my main three atm. Idk, I just feel like Devil's Sight is a dumb choice, but I find the uses for it amazing (especially combined with Darkness and having Adv on all my attacks + EBs and them having Disadv on all their attacks).
Devil's Sight is great for precisely the reasons you mention, and ritual casting is solid. The thing with 5e is that there are very few trap options, so if you can think of a fun or cheesy use for something, it's probably worth taking.


Also wasn't sure about which patron to pick; will probably go Fey though.
That's probably the best choice for you.



Would you say Con would be better for my build overall than Wis? Like I said, this is my first time playing so I wasn't sure how much I was going to be hit vs the extra Wis
Con and Wis are both very common saves, but concentration makes Con more important to casters.



Thanks again for being awesome!

I'd say you're making me blush, but frankly I'm a narcissist.

Kidding aside, I'm glad you enjoyed the guide, and I hope you have a great time playing!

[Polarthief]

Alright, I went ahead and made some small adjustments, the biggest being swapping WIS and CON to 12 and 13 (respectively). Feel like I'm so ready for this now :D


Don't worry about your ninth level. It's rarely a major game changer. And while normally ASIs are a big concern, your only real concern should be on Charisma and maybe getting Resilient Con. Other than that, ASIs won't be terribly important for you, so you can miss a few. If you feel like you're lagging on level four, stick with another Warlock level for the ASI. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

Glad to hear that because my Cleric friend wouldn't shut the hell up about it, plus I wouldn't even get it until 19 or 20 anyways. Besides, I'd end up taking Wish and then probably rolling the 33% chance of never getting to use it again. No thank you!

So CHA I want to 20 I'm guessing. Alright. That would mean two ASIs on CHA (to bump it to 20) and then I only get 2 feats (Resilient and something else, Resilient also bumps CON to a 14 for +2).

Also, in all my main choices for MC (17/3, 15/5, etc), I'd only be missing one ASI. Definitely don't plan on losing out on 2.


Devil's Sight is great for precisely the reasons you mention, and ritual casting is solid. The thing with 5e is that there are very few trap options, so if you can think of a fun or cheesy use for something, it's probably worth taking.

I'd say Phantasamal Force sounds like a trap to me! :D Even the PHB says I can make a fake bridge and their mind has to come up with ways that the bridge still exists. Being part-Illusionist is just awesome.


That's probably the best choice for you.

Wasn't sure even though it's a very minor choice. I guess the PBAoE Fear/Charm is pretty nice, on top of having some pretty good spell choices for Lock if I wanted to swap out FF/Sleep from Bard to Lock or something. I was considering Fiend for Fireball to be my 3rd Warlock spell (Level 5), but I could just pop a Magical Secret on it.


I'd say you're making me blush, but frankly I'm a narcissist.

Kidding aside, I'm glad you enjoyed the guide, and I hope you have a great time playing!

Well, s'all about that CHArm. ;) Thanks again and I can't stop thinking about it! :D

[RickAllison]

I suppose this brings up an interesting question; since Bards and Sorcerers can switch a spell each level, could one switch out a burned Wish spell for another spell known if they haven't reached 20 yet?

[Polarthief]

I suppose this brings up an interesting question; since Bards and Sorcerers can switch a spell each level, could one switch out a burned Wish spell for another spell known if they haven't reached 20 yet?

Or what if they did reach 20? Are you just stuck with -1 spell?

[RickAllison]

Or what if they did reach 20? Are you just stuck with -1 spell?

Well that one is a "Yes" unless you have a lenient DM :smallwink:

[PoeticDwarf]

Nice guide; agree with most stuff. Extra attacks should be blue or sky blue, song of rest no more than purple, but I agree mostly

[Polarthief]

Nice guide; agree with most stuff. Extra attacks should be blue or sky blue, song of rest no more than purple, but I agree mostly

I think the reason for EA being black is because it and Battle Magic step on each other's toes. You can't use both in one go, and it's arguable that a spell will end up doing a lot more for you than one more weapon attack (obviously depends on the weapon and spell). It's good, but eh.

Whatever's between black and blue, I'd put it at that. Until you get Battle Magic though, yeah it's pretty blue.

[EvilAnagram]

Nice guide; agree with most stuff. Extra attacks should be blue or sky blue, song of rest no more than purple, but I agree mostly

I agree with you on Extra Attack now that I've had some time to really experience the Valor Bard outside of theorycraft. However, you should not that purple is explicitly outside if the normal hierarchy of color-coding. I Use It To denote abilities whose uses fluctuate depending on circumstances. For example, Prestidigitation has potentially infinite uses, but doesn't provide concrete benefits. I think Song of Rest is rated accurately.

[RickAllison]

I agree with you on Extra Attack now that I've had some time to really experience the Valor Bard outside of theorycraft. However, you should not that purple is explicitly outside if the normal hierarchy of color-coding. I Use It To denote abilities whose uses fluctuate depending on circumstances. For example, Prestidigitation has potentially infinite uses, but doesn't provide concrete benefits. I think Song of Rest is rated accurately.

Which is a little odd compared to most guides. Most guides I've perused use green for that purpose since it is off the red-blue chain. To each their own, everyone gets it so long as they actually read the first post :smallbiggrin:

[EvilAnagram]

Which is a little odd compared to most guides. Most guides I've perused use green for that purpose since it is off the red-blue chain. To each their own, everyone gets it so long as they actually read the first post :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I've eschewed the green coding because it looks terrible. It's similar to how I don't use gold because nothing is actually mandatory for you to have fun in D&D.

And I don't see the point in having an intermediate between black and red because if it isn't good and it isn't situationally useful then it's bad.

And I think that if nothing else I've proven that nothing can get some people to read the first post. My Sorcerer guide has a sexy Tiefling and it has way more complaints related to purple ratings.

[Polarthief]

Regarding Resilient (Con for Concentration [and other stuff I guess]), would you recommend War Caster on top of it? Having Advantage on my proficient Con saves would be really nice, on top of the spell reactions (and for RP reasons, no free hand for somatic requirements mean I can always hold my Lyre/Lute/etc instrument. Just very RP-y for me :D), or would just WC or Resilient be enough? Since I'm new, I have no idea what's going to be overkill or not.

Just weighing all my options ahead of time since I need 2 ASIs on CHA (for a total of permanent 20 for the +5), giving me only 2 feats since I'm going Bard/Lock and giving up an ASI for it (4/8/12 Bard and 4 Warlock).

[EvilAnagram]

Resilient and War Caster are both solid feats for your build. If you have both, your Concentration saves will be insane.

[Polarthief]

Resilient and War Caster are both solid feats for your build. If you have both, your Concentration saves will be insane.

But do I reeeeeeeeally need all that much? How bad is the DC for saves on keeping Concentration?

I mean yeah it's awesome to have, but I question if I'll really need to use both of my only feats on Concentration saving, since I only get 4 ASIs.

[RickAllison]

But do I reeeeeeeeally need all that much? How bad is the DC for saves on keeping Concentration?

I mean yeah it's awesome to have, but I question if I'll really need to use both of my only feats on Concentration saving, since I only get 4 ASIs.

DC is 10 or half the damage, whichever is higher. With 12 Con, you will have a 40% chance of failing the save every time a commoner smacks you unarmed for just one damage. With just Warcaster, your basic chance of failure goes down to 16%. With just Resilient (Con), your chance of failure goes down to 30% at low levels and down to 10% at level 17 (which won't be for a while). Together, your chance of failure goes from 9% to 1%. That becomes even more important when you get to the higher level threats that deal damage resulting in a higher DC.

[Polarthief]

Together, your chance of failure goes from 9% to 1%.

*throws PHB on the bed* Guess I'm done looking at feats then! lol

Sorry for all these questions guys, and I super appreciate the friendly and helpful posts. Incredibly nervous and being the support-y skillmonkey, I don't want to let down my group. The game's been constantly on my mind since I got my PHB a few weeks ago, so it's setting me up to fail big time if I mess up :(

[RickAllison]

*throws PHB on the bed* Guess I'm done looking at feats then! lol

Sorry for all these questions guys, and I super appreciate the friendly and helpful posts. Incredibly nervous and being the support-y skillmonkey, I don't want to let down my group. The game's been constantly on my mind since I got my PHB a few weeks ago, so it's setting me up to fail big time if I mess up :(

Relax and have fun. It'll be a blast.

EDIT: Also, don't get flustered if your concentration drops. It'll happen and sometimes you can't prevent it in any way, so just be prepared to get right back in the action!

[Polarthief]

Ugggggggh, I want both Resil and War Caster, but man there's so many other fun feats I'd love to pick up. Actor, Alert, Lucky (oh man I reeeeeeeeally want Lucky!), Mobile, and... I think there was one more but I can't remember.

I should just roll Variant Human to take an extra feat right off the bat :D

Another quick question: Besides ASIs/some feats, is there any way to improve your ability scores permanently? I want to get to 20 CHA (starting at 16), but I'd love to be able to save ASIs on those fun feats.

[RickAllison]

Ugggggggh, I want both Resil and War Caster, but man there's so many other fun feats I'd love to pick up. Actor, Alert, Lucky (oh man I reeeeeeeeally want Lucky!), Mobile, and... I think there was one more but I can't remember.

I should just roll Variant Human to take an extra feat right off the bat :D

Another quick question: Besides ASIs/some feats, is there any way to improve your ability scores permanently? I want to get to 20 CHA (starting at 16), but I'd love to be able to save ASIs on those fun feats.

Not reliably, and it's even less likely with AL. There is a series of magic items that act as a free ASI for a certain ability. I don't think there are any other ways, but I might be wrong.

[Polarthief]

Not reliably, and it's even less likely with AL. There is a series of magic items that act as a free ASI for a certain ability. I don't think there are any other ways, but I might be wrong.

Damn. Ahh well, maybe I'll find some enchanted Lyre or something cool :)

I guess I have one last question though just to keep in mind, would it be better to improve CHA to 20 for my first 2 ASIs or should I nab feats first?

[EvilAnagram]

Damn. Ahh well, maybe I'll find some enchanted Lyre or something cool :)

I guess I have one last question though just to keep in mind, would it be better to improve CHA to 20 for my first 2 ASIs or should I nab feats first?

I usually spend my first ASI on my primary stat, but the second can be a feat. getting 18 is more important than getting 20.

[Polarthief]

I usually spend my first ASI on my primary stat, but the second can be a feat. getting 18 is more important than getting 20.

Any specific recommendation for the first feat?

I still want to get Lucky so bad. Just sounds like a damn good time (and awesome RP possibility), but I feel like I'll regret not taking both WC and Resil. Might end up not taking WC (Con is 13 so Resil also nets me +1 for more HP and even better saves). Getting only 4 ASIs stinks :(

[EvilAnagram]

Any specific recommendation for the first feat?

I still want to get Lucky so bad. Just sounds like a damn good time (and awesome RP possibility), but I feel like I'll regret not taking both WC and Resil. Might end up not taking WC (Con is 13 so Resil also nets me +1 for more HP and even better saves). Getting only 4 ASIs stinks :(

Either works. If you find yourself getting annoyed at having to switch between foci, take War Caster.

[Polarthief]

Either works. If you find yourself getting annoyed at having to switch between foci, take War Caster.

Hell I might consider dropping my second ASI so I can get Resil, WC, and Lucky, but I guess I'll see as time comes :)

Thanks again for all the help Evil and everyone else! Still a bit anxious but really excited and feeling a lot more prepared. First session starts tomorrow!

Edit: Omg I keep learning small tidbits of info that changes like literally everything. Swear I'm a glutton for D&D knowledge at this point; the PHB and Google's been my fix XD I was not under the assumption that rounds lasted only 6 seconds, so a spell that lasts 1m, like Heat Metal, lasts an eternity (10 rounds)! I questioned why it was sky blue; I had no idea! From a new player perspective, I see that as shining gold rating, holy hot damn! Can't wait to burn people using metal armor/weapons/etc ;)

[DivisibleByZero]

I'd like to point out that you omitted something extremely important from College of Swords that I think makes it superior to Valor.

Yes, College of Valor is cool for melee. But TWF doesn't step on Battle Magic's toes very much at all. It's the exact same as Valor's Battle Magic. Cast a Bard spell, get to make one attack as a bonus action. Sure, you're basically limited to light and/or finessable blades here, which means that a Valor Bard potentially has an advantage over you (I say potentially because many upon many Valor Bards will be going the finesse route anyway). So making Swords' Battle Magic black while Valor's Battle Magic is light blue seems unfair to me.

But that isn't the part that bothers me with your assessment of Swords.
For Blade Flourish, you say: "Boost your AC or ranged attack, with a rider on top. It's nice, even with the limitations."
That doesn't even mention Unnerving Flourish at all, which is by FAR the best Flourish.
Pull your attack, just like anyone else can, to leave an enemy at 1hp instead of zero. But in addition, you can use this (spending your bonus action and one Bardic Inspiration die) to make the enemy frightened of you for a number of minutes equal to your Cha mod. You also force that enemy to make a Wisdom save vs your spellcasting saving throw DC + the result of the BI roll. If the enemy fails that save (which is likely with the DC raised by the BI die) you then in addition to the frightened effect, you also get what basically amounts to a free Zone of Truth and a free Dominate, which lasts for what will likely be 3-5 minutes, and does not require concentration.
Unnerving Strike, just by itself, makes this College worth it. It is far and away better than Combat Inspiration in my opinion, and that alone makes Swords superior to Valor, because those are basically the only difference.
When the only real difference between the two favors Swords, but you rate Swords lower, I see that as a problem.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Unnerving Strike, just by itself, makes this College worth it. It is far and away better than Combat Inspiration in my opinion, and that alone makes Swords superior to Valor, because those are basically the only difference.
When the only real difference between the two favors Swords, but you rate Swords lower, I see that as a problem.

You're forgetting the Valor's side of the tradeoff, being able to boost Allies' AC and damage directly, which Swords cannot do. Valor's CI allows the allied player to selectively choose when and how the die is spent, whereas Swords must give the more limited die to an ally, or save it and use it on themselves. And if Swords is using the die to boost AC, it must be used preemptively, and the attack bonus is only applied to to-hit rolls on a highly specific attack.
Really, the Swords CI is rather situational, whereas Valor's is more generally useful.

And the other difference is getting two-weapon fighting style vs getting access to Shields, Longbows, and heavy x-bows, as well as the best STR weapons (which is only useful for specific builds, so a more minor bonus). The importance of this difference is more build dependent.

[PoeticDwarf]

I agree with you on Extra Attack now that I've had some time to really experience the Valor Bard outside of theorycraft. However, you should not that purple is explicitly outside if the normal hierarchy of color-coding. I Use It To denote abilities whose uses fluctuate depending on circumstances. For example, Prestidigitation has potentially infinite uses, but doesn't provide concrete benefits. I think Song of Rest is rated accurately.

I know about how you use purple and I like it, but song of rest is sometimes really strong and sometimes you can't use it properly. It is really depending on the situation. If you don't want to rate it purple it should be red. It barely helps

[DivisibleByZero]

You're forgetting the Valor's side of the tradeoff, {snip}

I'm not forgetting anything. I'm also not theorycrafting. I've seen Valor Bards in play with Combat Inspiration, and I'm currently playing a Blade who uses Unnerving Flourish as often as feasibly possible because of how friggin amazing it is.
Yes, the Valor Bard gets more weapons and shields. Yes, his Combat Inspiration is useful to his allies.
But getting a fighting style in exchange for the other weapons is a fair trade. And getting most of the Valor Bard's Combat Inspirations for yourself (only you, and with some stipulations) is offset by how unbelievable the extra one that you get (which the Valor Bard doesn't), namely Unnerving Flourish, is.
Worst case scenario, they are on equal footing, with the only difference being whether you help the party or yourself.
In my opinion, Swords is simply better because of how good UF is.

[EvilAnagram]

I'd like to point out that you omitted something extremely important from College of Swords that I think makes it superior to Valor.
Okay. Well, there's a lot to unpack from your post, so let's get to it.


Yes, College of Valor is cool for melee. But TWF doesn't step on Battle Magic's toes very much at all. It's the exact same as Valor's Battle Magic. Cast a Bard spell, get to make one attack as a bonus action. Sure, you're basically limited to light and/or finessable blades here, which means that a Valor Bard potentially has an advantage over you (I say potentially because many upon many Valor Bards will be going the finesse route anyway). So making Swords' Battle Magic black while Valor's Battle Magic is light blue seems unfair to me.
I suppose it's more that all of the Sword College's features step on each other's toes. Inspiration, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Battle Magic are all competing for that one bonus action. And while not every Valor Bard will focus on Strength, even finesse Valor Bards can use rapiers, which still deal more damage than the Swords' scimitars. Reduced damage and more competition make two strikes that degrade how worthwhile Battle Magic is. Still, Battle Magic is usually used when you would have cast anyways, so I can see bumping it to Blue, but not Sky Blue.



Unnerving Strike, just by itself, makes this College worth it. It is far and away better than Combat Inspiration in my opinion, and that alone makes Swords superior to Valor, because those are basically the only difference.
When the only real difference between the two favors Swords, but you rate Swords lower, I see that as a problem.
Well, it's not the only real difference. The fact that Valor Bards can be more effective cast-and-slashers is real. The fact that Valor bards can have better AC without using any resources and can still give out Inspiration to his buddies is real. More importantly, the fact that the Sword Bard has features that consistently compete with each other for use is a real difference.

A Valor Bard gives his Inspiration to his allies, and they decide when and how to use them at the most convenient moment. Sword Bards can do this to a more limited extent, but they're also encouraged to hoard their Inspiration for these more situational effects. They're powerful effects, but they're limited in applicability and erode your ability to aid your allies. That's why it's "only" rated really cool.

After consideration, I'm lowering the rating of Two-Weapon Fighting because of how much it competes with other Bard abilities, but I'll boost up Battle Magic a bit.

Edit: Although, since you play a Sword Bard anyways, I might as well ask you. Does TWF get used often enough to justify a good rating? It seems like it would be getting crowded out pretty often.


I know about how you use purple and I like it, but song of rest is sometimes really strong and sometimes you can't use it properly. It is really depending on the situation. If you don't want to rate it purple it should be red. It barely helps

I may be biased because I've usually seen it while I DM, and I tend to run tough games, but it tends to make a pretty big difference when my group's Bard uses it. With the book's assumption that 5e runs on 6-8 encounters a day, it's a reliable way to stretch party hit dice.

[Drackolus]

I think it's worth mentioning that a bard gets to use jack of all trades on dispel magic (on their list), counterspell, and telekinesis. It makes you almost as good as an abjuration wizard. A lore bard also gets to use peerless skill and, in the case of telekinesis, cutting words. Personally, I'd rate dispel magic as sky blue just because only abjuration wizards are better than bards at using it, and arguably they aren't better than a lore bard once they hit 14.

[EvilAnagram]

I think it's worth mentioning that a bard gets to use jack of all trades on dispel magic (on their list), counterspell, and telekinesis. It makes you almost as good as an abjuration wizard. A lore bard also gets to use peerless skill and, in the case of telekinesis, cutting words. Personally, I'd rate dispel magic as sky blue just because only abjuration wizards are better than bards at using it, and arguably they aren't better than a lore bard once they hit 14.

I think your point is well argued, but I don't think the increased capability translated to an increase in how it should be rated. It's totally worth mentioning, though, and I intend to do just that.

[DivisibleByZero]

Hey, it's your guide, you can and will rate things as you like. I just thought I'd chime in with a different opinion on that rating. :smallsmile:


And while not every Valor Bard will focus on Strength, even finesse Valor Bards can use rapiers, which still deal more damage than the Swords' scimitars. Reduced damage and more competition make two strikes that degrade how worthwhile Battle Magic is. Still, Battle Magic is usually used when you would have cast anyways, so I can see bumping it to Blue, but not Sky Blue.
All Bards get proficiency with rapiers. It's not Valor exclusive.
And no one says that you have to TWF just because you get the style for free. Feel free to use your rapier, just like a finesse Valor Bard would.... but in so doing you're actually losing out. Two scimitars (with the style) are indeed better than one rapier.
A rapier does an average of 1pt more damage. The second attack from TWF does an average of 6-7 damage. That means every time you take the TWF bonus action, you effectively have like 6 rounds worth of the damage difference from the rapier built up. Use those next 6 rounds to do something else with your bonus action.
How you consider that a bad thing baffles me.


More importantly, the fact that the Sword Bard has features that consistently compete with each other for use is a real difference.
[snip]
Edit: Although, since you play a Sword Bard anyways, I might as well ask you. Does TWF get used often enough to justify a good rating? It seems like it would be getting crowded out pretty often.

I dual wield (with Mobile feat, to keep me out of melee). My spells control and debuff.
In combat, when I want or need to cast, that's when I hand out any BI that I might want to. Or the reverse, if I want to hand out BI, then I cast (this is a great time to toss out a vicious mockery, for example). When I want to attack, my bonus action almost always gets used on twf.
So in my opinion, yes, the addition of the style is not wasted at all. In my opinion and experience, having more options for your bonus action is a good thing, and I wouldn't categorize it as stepping on toes.

I mean, seriously, how does more options for your bonus action become a bad thing in your guide?!?

Take that as you will, and rate it how you will.

[EvilAnagram]

I think you make a fairly compelling case. I'll up the ratings of the fighting style and archetype.

[DivisibleByZero]

I think you make a fairly compelling case. I'll up the ratings of the fighting style and archetype.

I find the newer ratings (and the mention of UN's mechanics) much more fair.
Individual aspects of the Colleges Valor and Swords may be slightly different (even within the exact same abilities between the two, because of the other abilities within), but in and of themselves they are on equal footing.

[Quintessence]

How would you feel about a paladin 2/bard 18 college of swords, using a shield and long sword with full plate? Your guide is the only one that really talks about college of swords so I was hoping to possibly get some feedback and learn a bit more about your feelings towards it.

[CaptAl]

In my 5 player AL group we have a Dwarven Fighter (S&B), Halfling Rogue, Undying Warlock Half Elf, Half Orc two weapon Ranger, and myself. I've been playing a Life Cleric. We're all level 2, but I find the Clerical spell list, and flavor subpar. I am considering a rebuild to go Lore Bard with a focus on Int skills (which the party is sadly lacking), and picking up Aura of Vitality for my first magical secrets pick. My question is, can a Lore Bard provide enough healing to keep a party going in a heavily combat focused game? I went Life specifically for this purpose; I just don't like playing a Cleric.

[RickAllison]

In my 5 player AL group we have a Dwarven Fighter (S&B), Halfling Rogue, Undying Warlock Half Elf, Half Orc two weapon Ranger, and myself. I've been playing a Life Cleric. We're all level 2, but I find the Clerical spell list, and flavor subpar. I am considering a rebuild to go Lore Bard with a focus on Int skills (which the party is sadly lacking), and picking up Aura of Vitality for my first magical secrets pick. My question is, can a Lore Bard provide enough healing to keep a party going in a heavily combat focused game? I went Life specifically for this purpose; I just don't like playing a Cleric.

You might still choose to dip one level in Cleric for that juicy 1st-level ability. Remember that Disciple of Life states that you get the boost when you "use a spell of 1st level or higher" rather than specify needing to cast it. That means that Aura of Vitality gives you 2d6+5 healing as a bonus action for 10 rounds. Effectively, you start dealing Life Cleric-worthy amounts of healing around that isn't even dependent on Wisdom while everything else is Bardic.

[CaptAl]

You might still choose to dip one level in Cleric for that juicy 1st-level ability. Remember that Disciple of Life states that you get the boost when you "use a spell of 1st level or higher" rather than specify needing to cast it. That means that Aura of Vitality gives you 2d6+5 healing as a bonus action for 10 rounds. Effectively, you start dealing Life Cleric-worthy amounts of healing around that isn't even dependent on Wisdom while everything else is Bardic.

Plus that juicy heavy armor proficiency. I'm guessing that Wis saves are pretty important in Curse of Strahd too.

[RickAllison]

Plus that juicy heavy armor proficiency. I'm guessing that Wis saves are pretty important in Curse of Strahd too.

Take less damage so he has even less to heal! Additionally, he could also grab Goodberry with a side of cheese for easy, out-of-combat healing. 40 HP for a first-level spell is hard to turn down when you are in an area that is not exactly permissive of resting...

[CaptAl]

Take less damage so he has even less to heal! Additionally, he could also grab Goodberry with a side of cheese for easy, out-of-combat healing. 40 HP for a first-level spell is hard to turn down when you are in an area that is not exactly permissive of resting...

I'm convinced. Life Cleric 1/ Lore Bard X and on to morning.

[RickAllison]

I'm convinced. Life Cleric 1/ Lore Bard X and on to morning.

Very effective combo. In case you care what other spells you get to prepare that you would normally have to Magical Secrets:

3 cantrips from Guidance, Sacred Flame, Spare the Dying, Thaumaturgy, as well as several others that are also Bard cantrips.

1st level spells: Bless, Command, Create or Destroy Water, Detect Evil and Good, Detect Poisons and Diseases, Guiding Bolt, Inflict Wounds, Protection from Evil and Good, Purify Food and Drink, Sanctuary, and Shield of Faith.

That is a pretty nice list that lets you boost your companions before they get injured!

[CaptAl]

Very effective combo. In case you care what other spells you get to prepare that you would normally have to Magical Secrets:

3 cantrips from Guidance, Sacred Flame, Spare the Dying, Thaumaturgy, as well as several others that are also Bard cantrips.

1st level spells: Bless, Command, Create or Destroy Water, Detect Evil and Good, Detect Poisons and Diseases, Guiding Bolt, Inflict Wounds, Protection from Evil and Good, Purify Food and Drink, Sanctuary, and Shield of Faith.

That is a pretty nice list that lets you boost your companions before they get injured!

Bless alone is worth the dip. With the Magic Initiate feat for good berry, I'll have approximately all the cantrips.

[EvilAnagram]

How would you feel about a paladin 2/bard 18 college of swords, using a shield and long sword with full plate? Your guide is the only one that really talks about college of swords so I was hoping to possibly get some feedback and learn a bit more about your feelings towards it.
Well, your smites will be off the charts at the cost of delaying your spell learning. However, you can pick mostly save-or-suck spells, so you don't have to worry about your spell damage lagging. You absolutely need to grab War Caster for this to work at all, though.

One problem I can see is that you'll either be unable to smite until level 8, or you won't get Extra Attack until level 8. That's a major impediment to your early melee.

Still, you'll benefit from basically all of the Sword College's features, and you'll be able to smite on top of that. It's not bad.


snip

Yeah, Bards have plenty of healing. More importantly, you always have the option of reducing your enemy's ability to hit with Vicious Mockery, while increasing your allies' ability with Inspiration, so you should need to heal less than you did as a Life Cleric.

And when you cast Vicious Mockery, it's always a good idea to actually insult your enemy. It makes for a fun table.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Thanks DivisibleByZero for advocating for the Swords College. It is an interesting variation.

Some comparisons between a Valor and a Swords following a similar progression I did for those interested in the numbers:

On AC: Valor is higher, by 1-3 points depending on the armor and feat choices. This is mainly because of a Shield.
Valor maxes at 20 with a shield and medium armor master.
Swords maxes at 19 with medium armor master and Dualist feats. This is a heavy feat investment however, so not every build will get this.
Swords is able to compensate if things look bad by gaining 1 Inspiration die to AC for a round for a bonus action.

On damage:
If they both follow a similar, DEX-based progression, Swords is doing from 4.5 to 9.5 more at-will damage per turn, depending on level, DEX mod and feats acquired.
Valor may compensate by adding inspiration dice to allies' damage. Starts at 3.5*CHA mod per long rest, becomes 6.5*CHA mod per short rest, so something like 10 to 33 extra damage per rest. About 2 to 3 bonus attacks for a Swords bard.

[Ewhit]

My question is whe will evilanagram complete other classes

[Quintessence]

Well, your smites will be off the charts at the cost of delaying your spell learning. However, you can pick mostly save-or-suck spells, so you don't have to worry about your spell damage lagging. You absolutely need to grab War Caster for this to work at all, though.

One problem I can see is that you'll either be unable to smite until level 8, or you won't get Extra Attack until level 8. That's a major impediment to your early melee.

Still, you'll benefit from basically all of the Sword College's features, and you'll be able to smite on top of that. It's not bad.


Well sadly I would have to start as Paladin in order to get heavy armor, I suppose I could do TWF in heavy armor until I get second attack.. Alright I have a general idea of how to make this work, thank you very much.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

My question is whe will evilanagram complete other classes

I'm not sure he's intending to do more, though I certainly would appreciate it. A Wonk or Marlock guide would be nice - all the guides for them are rather out of date.

[Mervold]

Heroism: The temp HP is extremely strong when you first get it, but that fades with time and levels.

Sleep: You can lay waste to entire encounters with this spell.I like how you have shown with Heroism that it fades quickly. Unfortunately Sleep fades even quicker, in my opinion it is close to useless by level 3. So I would make it Purple, and mention that it starts as Sky Blue.

[EvilAnagram]

I like how you have shown with Heroism that it fades quickly. Unfortunately Sleep fades even quicker, in my opinion it is close to useless by level 3. So I would make it Purple, and mention that it starts as Sky Blue.

From experience, I can tell you that Sleep is effective through level 5, but I see your point.

[Mervold]

From experience, I can tell you that Sleep is effective through level 5, but I see your point.I guess we had very different DMs.

I love how you kept the WotC coloring scheme, sometimes I get really confused on this forum, where in some guides Gold is the second worst value.

I see you did not do a Magic Item section, I understand, they are mostly the same for all classes. One big exception is Instrument of the Bards, DMs tend to hand them out as they start from uncommon, and are thematically correct. They give disadvantage on charm saving throws. I would defintely mention in the spells section that Animal Friendship, Charm Person, Dominate X, Hypnotic Pattern become at least one category better if you have such an item.

[Ehergert]

Hello all -

I am still very new to tabletop rpg games, but have been getting started at my local store recently.

While I don't necessarily care about pure optimization, I don't want to be significantly underpowered either. I was looking at a possible rogue swashbuckler / bard MC, but I really don't see any conversation on that build. Is there a reason why?

[EvilAnagram]

Hello all -

I am still very new to tabletop rpg games, but have been getting started at my local store recently.

While I don't necessarily care about pure optimization, I don't want to be significantly underpowered either. I was looking at a possible rogue swashbuckler / bard MC, but I really don't see any conversation on that build. Is there a reason why?

Honestly, it's so clearly good in so many ways that it's not worth commenting on. Bard/Rogues are obviously good together, and a Charisma Rogue obviously has even more overlap. Everyone agrees on this, but all the conversation revolves around out disagreements.

Swashbuckler is a solid class, and it meshes well with all the Bard archetypes.

[Mervold]

Honestly, it's so clearly good in so many ways that it's not worth commenting on. Bard/Rogues are obviously good together, and a Charisma Rogue obviously has even more overlap. Everyone agrees on this, but all the conversation revolves around out disagreements.

Swashbuckler is a solid class, and it meshes well with all the Bard archetypes.I am confused. To the guy who wanted to play a Paladin/Bard you said he is gona have problems, and now Bard/Rogue is supposed to be great?
Ok, Rogue is pretty front-loaded, but Swashbuckler does not advance spellcasting, and providing Inspiration interferes with off-hand attacks. If you go Valor, Medium Armor quickly becomes redundat, if you go Lore delaying your spell progression will hurt even more.

What does a Rogue add to a Bard, that it really needs? Ok, probably DPR, but Warlock2 does it much better.
What does a Bard add to a Rogue, that it really needs? Nothing, unless the party has no other healer/controller.
Bards profit much more from Cleric1 or Warlock2, and Rogues profit much more from Battlemaster, or Arcana Cleric, or Sorcerer.
I agree Bard/Rogue is hard to do very badly, but it is impossible to do great.

[EvilAnagram]

I agree Bard/Rogue is hard to do very badly, but it is impossible to do great.
He wanted to know that he wouldn't be lagging behind or fall into a trap. He won't, so I told him it's fine. He specifically said he's not out to uber-optimize, so the fact that his features don't build much on each other won't matter.

[Mervold]

He wanted to know that he wouldn't be lagging behind or fall into a trap. He won't, so I told him it's fine. He specifically said he's not out to uber-optimize, so the fact that his features don't build much on each other won't matter.You are right, I was a bit over-zealous.

Still, I do not get the appeal of Swashbuckler/Bards. This is the 3rd one I see, so it is quite popular, but it is the same flavor/fluff as a standalone Swashbucker or standalone Bard, just weaker.

[Citan]

You are right, I was a bit over-zealous.

Still, I do not get the appeal of Swashbuckler/Bards. This is the 3rd one I see, so it is quite popular, but it is the same flavor/fluff as a standalone Swashbucker or standalone Bard, just weaker.
Hmm. I don't quite understand how you could say this.
Swashbuckler never gets any spellcasting.
Bard would have to rely heavily on spells to add mobility or damage.

While the pertinence of Swashbuckler / Lore Bard could be more debatable (although even so there could be many things to justify it at least for lvl 3 dip), it makes a very great combo with Valor Bard.

Extra Attack from Valor means extra chance to inflict Sneak Attack, extra Expertise and Reliable Talent from Rogue makes you a beast in every proficient skill, Cunning Action means you can more easily go help an ally, freely disengage from melee and double your movement And you get the great defensive reaction abilities which complement the lack of Fighting Style of the Lore Bard and means less/better uses of your Inspiration die.

Even for a Lore Bard, it can be a great option...
Reliable Talent becomes even more powerful since you know extra skills from Lore.
Cunning Action means you can disengage from a melee enemy to move away or cast your attack spell without disadvantage, dash to get optimal distance for an attack or spell before backtracking to safety, or hide to prepare/concentrate without risk.
Sneak Attack can be enabled with a Magic Secret cantrips or even a plain ranged weapon, giving an actual decent "sustained damage", better than Vicious Mockery.
AND, the bonus to initiative of swashbuckler means you have a much better chance to be the first to act in the fight, which you can use if only to help friends (Faerie Fire) or try and change the game rules (Bestow Curse, Slow, Blindness).

IMO, for a Valor Bard, Swashbuckler Rogue is a given, as strong or better than Fighter depending on the build focus.
For a Lore Bard, I'd say Swashbuckler is a clear winner for dips as low as 3. Above lvl 5, I'd prefer Arcane Trickster because the lvl 9 is not so further away and would synergize greatly with all Bard debuffs, making it a fair trade for the loss of spellcasting.

[wunderkid]

I am confused. To the guy who wanted to play a Paladin/Bard you said he is gona have problems, and now Bard/Rogue is supposed to be great?
Ok, Rogue is pretty front-loaded, but Swashbuckler does not advance spellcasting, and providing Inspiration interferes with off-hand attacks. If you go Valor, Medium Armor quickly becomes redundat, if you go Lore delaying your spell progression will hurt even more.

What does a Rogue add to a Bard, that it really needs? Ok, probably DPR, but Warlock2 does it much better.
What does a Bard add to a Rogue, that it really needs? Nothing, unless the party has no other healer/controller.
Bards profit much more from Cleric1 or Warlock2, and Rogues profit much more from Battlemaster, or Arcana Cleric, or Sorcerer.
I agree Bard/Rogue is hard to do very badly, but it is impossible to do great.

Rogue adds to bard with expertise and cunning action. Im playing a rogue arcane trickster 3/bard lore 3 right now, and the extra expertises really do give you a lot in terms of game play.

I have +10 to hide (with advantage giving them disadvantage from an uncommon item) which can be utilized to cast a spell then using cunning action to hide and avoid return fire.

When you're debuffing/controlling which is the role I've chosen you get a lot of attention from people not wanting to be debuffed/suggested/whispered/laughed so Hiding as a bonus action is a godsend and helps protect your concentration.

I have +10 also to deception. I can now talk my way (and the group) through a fair few situations. Persuasion would also be a good choice here for the same reasons.

I have a passive perception of 23 I think (10 base, 6 expertise, 2 wisdom, 5 is from an uncommon magical item giving advantage)

And a sleight of hand of +15 before rolling (thanks to finding gloves of thievery this is also uncommon I believe).

So what the rogue adds to the bard isnt DPR, in fact it costs dpr, but the utility that it brings is really top knotch. You'll never out dpr the fighter, and you're not going to have as many spell slots as the full caster but that's not just what you're bringing to the table at the end of the day you're a skill monkey who strains bounded accuracy, not to mention a lot of the low level bard spells remain amazingly relevant due to them being control effects whereas damage spells usually need higher slots to stay relevant.

I'd likely only dip 2 rogue if I was building hard to keep the 18th level magical secrets. But it's a blooming good dip nonetheless. I tried palabard and it felt like a wannabe fighter (that in my opinion palasorc does better but that's an entirely different topic all together.) The rogue bard has its own little niche of stealth control with a metric tonne of proficiencies and expertise. It fills a role that no other pure class can fill, pure rogues offer DPR and skills with stealth. Pure bards offer Control and skills but at the cost of being a target with not that amazing ac (this is along a similar reasoning that a lot of people dip one level for heavy armour proficiency, only I like it with stealth). The Hybrid sits nicely as a skirmishing controller who can skill their way through a lot of issues too.

[RickAllison]

A dip of 6 into Lore Bard can also be great to nab Pass Without Trace (as that synergizes better than 3 Druid). PWT, Reliable Talent, and Expertise give a level 17 minimum (presuming 20 Dex) of 37, which beats Tiamat if she didn't have true sight. Without a special sense that negates PWT, the Bard/Rogue is effectively impossible to detect barring someone optimized to perceive.

[Mervold]

I am not saying a Swashbuckler Bard is horrible in combat, but in a party with the usual amount of social interaction and a decent Cleric or Land Druid a pure Rogue performs better. The same is true for the other half.
And if you are in a social-heavy game than the question is how can the other party members survive without Expertise.


I have a passive perception of 23 I think (10 base, 6 expertise, 2 wisdom, 5 is from an uncommon magical item giving advantage).Expertise is only added if you make a check, and passive perception is not a check.


Hmm. I don't quite understand how you could say this.
Swashbuckler never gets any spellcasting.
Bard would have to rely heavily on spells to add mobility or damage.When I say flavor, I mean the roleplaying aspects. Both do the typical high charisma, womanizing, chandelier-swinging act. You are talking about game mechanics.

I agree a Valor Bard benefits more from a Rogue than from Fighter, but a Rogue benefits more from Battlemaster. Ripost is such a huge addition for DPR.

[wunderkid]

Expertise is only added if you make a check, and passive perception is not a check.
---------------------------------------------


"Here’s how to determine a character’s total for a passive check: 10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check"

It is a modifier that normally do applies to the check. Therefore expertise is applied.

Likewise passive scores are the "average result for a task done repeatedly" which means expertise once again as intended would be applied regardless of how RAW heavy you want to go.

[Citan]

I am not saying a Swashbuckler Bard is horrible in combat, but in a party with the usual amount of social interaction and a decent Cleric or Land Druid a pure Rogue performs better. The same is true for the other half.
And if you are in a social-heavy game than the question is how can the other party members survive without Expertise.

Expertise is only added if you make a check, and passive perception is not a check.

When I say flavor, I mean the roleplaying aspects. Both do the typical high charisma, womanizing, chandelier-swinging act. You are talking about game mechanics.

I agree a Valor Bard benefits more from a Rogue than from Fighter, but a Rogue benefits more from Battlemaster. Ripost is such a huge addition for DPR.
Well, as a fact, I don't agree either on the bolded part. ;)
Charisma is really intrisical to the Bard, because 100% of the fluff revolves about interacting socially in a more or less open and subversive way, and 85% of the mechanics also revolve around this.

This is typically not true for Rogues. Even if you don't take mechanics into account (with one in PHB and one in SCAG biaising INT, 2 in PHB biaising DEX/STR, one in UA biaising WIS, and one biaising CHA). Charisma is absolutely NOT a requirement for a Rogue to "be" a Rogue or play as a Rogue, and it's logicial because the pillar of Rogue fluff is subterfuge and thievering, and using social interactions to achieve that are but one way among many others.

Many rogues embraced the career because they did not have the required background or intrisic capacities to create a place for themselves "in the light". You could be a very potent Assassin while still avoiding any contact with people. As well as a Rogue that has basically no brains but is a natural genius at reading people...
Technically, you could even play an Arcane Trickster with dump INT, and justify it by the fact that you somehow memorized the spells well enough to use them, although you don't actually understand what the symbols mean... :)
Or a Rogue that is so unimpressive, so "transparent" (= low Charisma) that it actually helps him greatly in hiding because people tend to not even notice his presence.

As for effectiveness of multiclass builds...
You give an example of "decent Cleric and Druid", but a Bard gets many exclusive spells compared to them and could still get a handful of the best spells they could have. Sure Rogue would deal much better damage but needs to ensure he hits, and Bard gets spells that are outright better than dealing damage in the sense that they could disable a powerful enemy in one round that a Rogue couldn't.

As for your last sentence, beyond the fact that I really don't see how we could compare Battlemaster and Bard since the benefits from each are so different, what you say cannot be stated as "always true statement" since you get many other ways to get or improve a Reaction attack (Sentinel, Warcaster) that have no use limit, compared to Riposte.

[Aurthur]

Love the guide. Loving my Lore Bard 16/Life Cleric 1. :)

A note: You didn't list Aasimar or the Eladrin from the DMG in your listing. Aasimar make excellent bards. :)

Cheers!

[EvilAnagram]

Love the guide. Loving my Lore Bard 16/Life Cleric 1. :)

A note: You didn't list Aasimar or the Eladrin from the DMG in your listing. Aasimar make excellent bards. :)

Cheers!

Yeah, I don't think I've talked about those two in any of my guides. I'll get around to it eventually.

Glad you enjoyed the guide!

[Mervold]

Well, as a fact, I don't agree either on the bolded part. ;)
Charisma is really intrisical to the Bard, because 100% of the fluff revolves about interacting socially in a more or less open and subversive way, and 85% of the mechanics also revolve around this.

This is typically not true for Rogues. Even if you don't take mechanics into account (with one in PHB and one in SCAG biaising INT, 2 in PHB biaising DEX/STR, one in UA biaising WIS, and one biaising CHA). Charisma is absolutely NOT a requirement for a Rogue to "be" a Rogue or play as a Rogue, and it's logicial because the pillar of Rogue fluff is subterfuge and thievering, and using social interactions to achieve that are but one way among many others.I was specifically talking about fluff, and Swashbucklers but not Rogues in general.
First you tell me I am wrong because they are mechanically different. You are right, but I wrote fluff.
Then you tell me I am wrong because general Rogues dont need Charisma. You are right, but I wrote Swashbuckler.

I do not think there are other parts you could misinterpret, so lets just say I was right from the beginning :smallwink:

[Aaron Underhand]

Hi,

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels I find it harder.

I'm sure others would like some notes on this as well.

Thanks

[BiPolar]

Hi,

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels I find it harder.

I'm sure others would like some notes on this as well.

Thanks

A lot of it depends on your party makeup and how you play your bard. But I took counterpspell and fireball at 6 :). Haven't yet decided on 10th choices, but leaning towards:

Bigby's Hand
Immolate
Wall of Force
Destructive Wave

[EvilAnagram]

Hi,

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels I find it harder.

I'm sure others would like some notes on this as well.

Thanks

The problem with making notes on this without literally rating everything is twofold: the higher in level you go, the better the average quality of spell is. There's almost nothing that's "bad" at these levels, so your choices should be based on your specific needs. Does your party need some blasting power? Cone of Cold. Do you want to be a solid archer? Swift Quiver. Want a solid debuff? Contagion. Want to summon creatures? Conjure Elemental. Want variability? Bigby's Hand or Telekinesis. Your options are plentiful, so feel free to sort through them.

[BiPolar]

The problem with making notes on this without literally rating everything is twofold: the higher in level you go, the better the average quality of spell is. There's almost nothing that's "bad" at these levels, so your choices should be based on your specific needs. Does your party need some blasting power? Cone of Cold. Do you want to be a solid archer? Swift Quiver. Want a solid debuff? Contagion. Want to summon creatures? Conjure Elemental. Want variability? Bigby's Hand or Telekinesis. Your options are plentiful, so feel free to sort through them.

Unfortunately, contagion is quite the debuff we want it to be :(

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/13/contagion-effects/

[SharkForce]

i'm quite fond of transmute rock for a level 5 spell (and it doesn't require concentration!). but it's probably hard to argue with wall of force, unless your DM has nerfed it.

[Aurthur]

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels I find it harder.

The challenge is it really depends. If you're going healer, multiclassing into Life Cleric, then Goodberry is a MUST... maybe Aura of Vitality, etc. If you're going support, then you end up picking items like Divine Word, Circle of Power, Commune or other CC/buff spells. If you're going ranged assault, maybe Swift Quiver is your 'gotta have it'. If you're going 'little bit of Column A, little bit of Column B' then literally anything you want is available. :)

Hard to rate such a versatile class with the entire class list for usefulness. I'd ask yourself 'What am I going to want to accomplish in a group'...and if you can't answer it with your current spell list, look around for what would help.

Good luck!

[EvilAnagram]

The challenge is it really depends. If you're going healer, multiclassing into Life Cleric, then Goodberry is a MUST...

Disclaimer: Multiclassing into Life Cleric is not a must. They're magnificent healers, but there's an opportunity cost to multiclassing

[Aurthur]

Disclaimer: Multiclassing into Life Cleric is not a must. They're magnificent healers, but there's an opportunity cost to multiclassing

To be clear, that's not what I said or meant. If you multiclass into Life Cleric as a Bard, then Goodberry is a must for your repertoire. :) 4hp berries is just...awesome.

[EvilAnagram]

To be clear, that's not what I said or meant. If you multiclass into Life Cleric as a Bard, then Goodberry is a must for your repertoire. :) 4hp berries is just...awesome.

Ah, I misread. My apologies.

[Baelwolf]

I just have to thank you for putting this handbook up. It's actually been very beneficial to me. Just got into 5e and reading your guide made me finally commit to playing a bard (always wanted to, just never liked the 3x bards). Even still won't be playing a pure bard as I plan on dipping 2 levels into lock, but it is looking like I will have an immense amount of fun!

[Yuroch Kern]

I echo the various accolades! This guide has allowed the creation of my now 6th level Valor Bard. Although not as optimised as some would do, the sheer amount of Metal I have brought has defeated dragons! When you working on the rest of the classes? You do good work.

[EvilAnagram]

Thank you both! I'm glad to hear people are having fun with my suggestions, and I'm glad that metal bards are still a thing. I'm working on another guide as we speak.

[Aaron Underhand]

Thanks to all with spell selections, many ideas there, which was all I needed.


I do think the guide could have a simple section for magical secrets which just said 'some key spells at each level' with

6th level (lore bard)

Counterspell - if you are facing opposing casters
Fireball - if you need to add AoE blasting
Spiritual Weapon - for bonus action efficiency
Goodberry - if multiclassed with life cleric

...etc

[Ohillion]

I just have to thank you for putting this handbook up. It's actually been very beneficial to me. Just got into 5e and reading your guide made me finally commit to playing a bard (always wanted to, just never liked the 3x bards). Even still won't be playing a pure bard as I plan on dipping 2 levels into lock, but it is looking like I will have an immense amount of fun!

Any chance you'd be willing to post your build? I'm working on a 4th level Lore Bard and I'm curious if I should dip into Warlock with one of these 4 levels. If you've found success with just a Lore Bard, I'd love to see it. A pure class Lore Bard doesn't sound bad at all.

[BurgTurdler]

@EvilAnagram Awesome guide man! I've never played a Bard but in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486736-MF-LIGHTNING!-Fry-ALL-the-things!&p=20735211#post20735211) I was asking people the best way to get all the lightning spells and powers. I was stuck between the tempest cleric the storm sorcerer the evocationist wizard and the druid. Most of the people in that thread said Bard was the way to go with maybe two levels in tempest cleric for the features. I'm looking for lightning bolt, shocking grasp, chain lightning, call lightning, witchbolt, etc. Also anything with thunder would compliment those nicely.

You clearly know Bards really really well. Could I ask you to take a few minutes and lay out the best build to get to having all of those spells? I would really appreciate it. I'll even bake you muffins...

[Socratov]

@BrugTurdler: Well, if you are going Lore Bard, you can easily get thunderwave and thunderclap, and 4 of those spells you can get through magical secrets, but for this I think the storm sorcerer or tempest cleric is the better option. Though you might want to take a look at Druid. Also, I'd urge you to not forget about Chromatic Orb, which has the potential to be any element and does decent damage (and as a sorcerer can be twinned).

Honestly, the storm sorcerer might be best, you will miss some spells, but you even get Call Lightning for free. Which is huge. I can only urge you to take empower metamagic to reroll those pesky 1's and depending on your spell selection.

Bard can do much, and it might do well here, but in this case I feel it would be like pushing a square peg through a round hole.

[Penchant]

True Strike / Light Cleric 1 / Wisdom

True Strike may possibly be underrated.
I use True Strike as a readied action as often as possible, based on the fact that i successfully argued that the spell description mandates the cast as an extension of the hand with pointed finger, not extension of the arm. Any performer worth his salt can surreptitiously manage to point a finger. You don't have to take a big bold step forward and brazenly thrust your arm out with an attention grabbing flourish (although i have, as part of the performance)

Charisma and proficiency bonus allow me to enter most situations (where humanoids are involved) and bluster my way into a round of free action prior to initiative, often allowing for some measure of surprise. With true strike readied under the condition of "enemy draws weapon or moves to attack" i get advantage on something prior to the initiative roll almost every time.

Also, if you're barding right, your dm is going to try to kill you because you're screwing up all of his plans. I went one level in to light cleric and between warding flare and cutting words, he basically cannot roll to hit me. It's to the point where, when he does, i just say "no, you don't".

Finally, I don't understand the rationale behind wisdom as a dump stat. Perception and passive perception checks have been constant thus far and have often saved our party from dire consequences. Is my DM just overusing perception checks, having come from pathfinder?

[Nu]

Finally, I don't understand the rationale behind wisdom as a dump stat. Perception and passive perception checks have been constant thus far and have often saved our party from dire consequences. Is my DM just overusing perception checks, having come from pathfinder?

Perception is important. But the opportunity cost of having a higher Wisdom score solely for an extra +1~2 to Perception is very high. By all means, train Perception, select it for Expertise, but it's probably best not to invest in Wisdom beyond a 10 or 12. Unless you have another, specific reason for doing so (multi-classing, etc.).

[Xeethra]

Perception is important. But the opportunity cost of having a higher Wisdom score solely for an extra +1~2 to Perception is very high. By all means, train Perception, select it for Expertise, but it's probably best not to invest in Wisdom beyond a 10 or 12. Unless you have another, specific reason for doing so (multi-classing, etc.).
Many spells have wisdom for a saving throw. Insight is also helpful in social interactions if you're the face of the party. My lore bard's dump stats were strength and intelligence.

[lall]

Many spells have wisdom for a saving throw. Insight is also helpful in social interactions if you're the face of the party. My lore bard's dump stats were strength and intelligence.
Mine too, but WIS is only 4th most important. Many of the spells where you make a WIS save require the baddie to be able to see you, so if you have Nondetection and Greater Invisibility going, you can sometimes avoid the spell. Other party members can (in many situations) help with Insight and Perception, even though as Nu mentioned, you won't be horrible in those if you're proficient in them. Alert can also help make up for a not so great Perception.

[EvilAnagram]

snip
Honestly, the Bard adds very little for these aside from Magical Secrets. A Storm Sorcerer with a two-level dip in Tempest Cleric is a much better bet, as your class features actually aid tour ability to cast lightning and thunder spells.

There's a very reactionary, hyperbolic element in the community exaggerates how useful a Bard is in specific builds. The same people tend to claim that a Bard is the best at anything, even if he has no features that enhance its abilities in that area. A storm mage is a good example of this. My favorite is the perennial claim that Bards make better Rangers than Rangers because the Bard gets access to a handful of Ranger spells before the Ranger does. Nevermind that by the time the Bard gets to use those spells, he spent 10 levels not being a Ranger while the Ranger has spent 10 levels being a Ranger.

The Bard is great, but Storm Sorcerers, Lightning Draconic Sorcerers, Evocation Wizards, and Tempest Clerics are all better at being storm mages than Bards are.


True Strike / Light Cleric 1 / Wisdom

1. You know what's just as effective as readying True Strike? Taking a defensive action. Or readying a defensive action.

2. Light Cleric is on par with Life Cleric dips in that you have to pump a dump stat (admittedly a usefull one) and delay your Sorcerer progression, but the benefits are decent.

3. Wisdom is a great stat, but boosting it means losing AC, attack value, concentration, or spell ability. There's simply a big opportunity cost.

[rooneg]

At what level do you think Sleep starts to lose its luster? I've got a Knowledge Cleric 1/Bard N AL character who just hit 3rd level as a bard (and will probably immediately jump to 4th due to "catch up"), is it worth swapping out Sleep for another 2nd level spell, or should I keep it around for now? Current Bard spell list is:

Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion
1st Level: Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Thunderwave

I'm currently looking at picking up Suggestion and Heat Metal for my next two spells, are there others I should consider dropping some 1st level spells for? Hold Person maybe? Is Sleep first on the chopping block? Or are there other options worth considering here?

[EvilAnagram]

At what level do you think Sleep starts to lose its luster? I've got a Knowledge Cleric 1/Bard N AL character who just hit 3rd level as a bard (and will probably immediately jump to 4th due to "catch up"), is it worth swapping out Sleep for another 2nd level spell, or should I keep it around for now? Current Bard spell list is:

Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion
1st Level: Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Thunderwave

I'm currently looking at picking up Suggestion and Heat Metal for my next two spells, are there others I should consider dropping some 1st level spells for? Hold Person maybe? Is Sleep first on the chopping block? Or are there other options worth considering here?
Sleep is definitely first on the chopping block. Your others are consistently useful. It should still be fine for now, but if your DM prefers high-HP enemies then you should ditch it. Other than Suggestion and Heat Metal, I would consider Invisibility.

[rooneg]

Sleep is definitely first on the chopping block. Your others are consistently useful. It should still be fine for now, but if your DM prefers high-HP enemies then you should ditch it. Other than Suggestion and Heat Metal, I would consider Invisibility.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. It's kind of hard to predict what my DMs will throw at me regarding high hit point monsters, since this is an AL character that I mostly play at cons a couple of times a year, I don't have any consistent game I play in, so we're firmly in the "expect table to table variance" area ;-) Maybe I'll hang on to sleep through level 3 and 4, and keep it around for a swap later on. It doesn't really feel like most of the other stuff on my list really loses its appeal, and it might be nice to swap it for a 3rd level spell when I level up to 5th as a bard, since by then I've got 3 3rd level slots and it would be good to have more options for them.

[Talionis]

True Strike / Light Cleric 1 / Wisdom

True Strike may possibly be underrated.
I use True Strike as a readied action as often as possible, based on the fact that i successfully argued that the spell description mandates the cast as an extension of the hand with pointed finger, not extension of the arm. Any performer worth his salt can surreptitiously manage to point a finger. You don't have to take a big bold step forward and brazenly thrust your arm out with an attention grabbing flourish (although i have, as part of the performance)

Charisma and proficiency bonus allow me to enter most situations (where humanoids are involved) and bluster my way into a round of free action prior to initiative, often allowing for some measure of surprise. With true strike readied under the condition of "enemy draws weapon or moves to attack" i get advantage on something prior to the initiative roll almost every time.

er?
I think this is the way to use True Strike, but it won't work anywhere near 100% of the time and it's a big question if it's worth the cantrip. If you have it yes, it's easy to fluff as a bard your use of True Strike, but almost any other character can do the same. I'm glad it's working with you, but is it really worth it's?

[Ashrym]

I think this is the way to use True Strike, but it won't work anywhere near 100% of the time and it's a big question if it's worth the cantrip. If you have it yes, it's easy to fluff as a bard your use of True Strike, but almost any other character can do the same. I'm glad it's working with you, but is it really worth it's?

True strike is S only and appears to be meant as an amush cantrip.

Hiding successfully, casting true strike, and attacking a target the next round with an important attack, for example, and I would consider that very niche. It only applies if the bard cannot attack while remaining hidden / unseen. Hiding the S component hidden in precombat interaction is an interesting idea but as a DM I would grant insight vs deception because the player clearly plans on attacking.

It also enables sneak attack if the character has it when out in the open and without a partner handy to enable that sneak attack.

There are too many ways to get advantage on attacks as the levels increase and the action spent casting it typically would have been increased damage

[quietkal]

Never played a bard before, but your guide really helped put one together! Thanks!

[Miffles]

Every time i play bard i get laughed at because "(bard is bad)"

[Miffles]

Good idea using purple as situational

[Miffles]

But use gold for this stat is really good because it's easier on the eyes

[lall]

Every time i play bard i get laughed at because "(bard is bad)"
Are they laughing nervously as the bard is bad to the bone?

[Drackolus]

Are they laughing nervously as the bard is bad to the bone?

3.5 bard was kinda bad (except in ideal situations, in which case they're okay). 5e lore bard might be the strongest in the game if you really break down the numbers. They're just very good at spreading out their power, so it makes them seem weaker at a glance.

[JLawRip]

What about College of Glamour and College of Whispers?

http: // media. wizards. com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Bard. pdf (remove spaces)

[JellyPooga]

On Ability Scores:

- Strength should be purple. Only a select few Valour Bards really need to bother with it. For most Bards it's totally a dump-stat.

- Wisdom should be black, if not blue. Neglecting Wisdom is always a bad idea because failing a Wis Save is bad news. For a Class with as much leeway in Skills as Bard has, Wisdom has some nice offerings in the form of Perception and Survival, not to mention the invaluable Insight for the socially inclined. This is not to mention the multiclassing opportunities with either Druid or Cleric, both of which have much to offer for the 16 Wis/16 Cha Bard. Wisdom is under no circumstance a dump-stat for Bards IMO.

On Spells:

- Worth noting that Glibness makes Bards the best Counterspell and Dispel Magicers in the game; not only do they get half proficiency from JoaT, but minimum 15 on the roll as well with Glibness up; even with Cha 14, that's enough to counter/dispel any spell with only a 3rd level slot...automatically.

[EvilAnagram]

What about College of Glamour and College of Whispers?

http: // media. wizards. com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Bard. pdf (remove spaces)

In light of the weeks of UA material for every class and my own busy schedule, I'm going to hold off on reviewing UA archetypes.


On Ability Scores:

- Strength should be purple. Only a select few Valour Bards really need to bother with it. For most Bards it's totally a dump-stat.
Yeah, this is a good point.


- Wisdom should be black, if not blue. Neglecting Wisdom is always a bad idea because failing a Wis Save is bad news. For a Class with as much leeway in Skills as Bard has, Wisdom has some nice offerings in the form of Perception and Survival, not to mention the invaluable Insight for the socially inclined. This is not to mention the multiclassing opportunities with either Druid or Cleric, both of which have much to offer for the 16 Wis/16 Cha Bard. Wisdom is under no circumstance a dump-stat for Bards IMO.
I disagree about the relative importance of Wisdom and Intelligence. I've talked about it before at various points, but so long as one PC has perception or survival, the party's needs are covered. I'm also not going to rate an ability score based on how much it will benefit another class. As for the Wisdom save, while this saves are worth beefing up, it's not essential. Beaides, an Intelligence save is a much worse save to fail, if less common.


On Spells:

- Worth noting that Glibness makes Bards the best Counterspell and Dispel Magicers in the game; not only do they get half proficiency from JoaT, but minimum 15 on the roll as well with Glibness up; even with Cha 14, that's enough to counter/dispel any spell with only a 3rd level slot...automatically.
Good point.

[JellyPooga]

I disagree about the relative importance of Wisdom and Intelligence. I've talked about it before at various points, but so long as one PC has perception or survival, the party's needs are covered. I'm also not going to rate an ability score based on how much it will benefit another class. As for the Wisdom save, while this saves are worth beefing up, it's not essential. Beaides, an Intelligence save is a much worse save to fail, if less common.

I agree on your general point about Perception and Survival (though Perception is nice for anyone to have), but if you're going to be the skill-monkey of the group (and let's face it; Bards, especially Lore Bards, have skill proficiencies to spare)...well, you might as well be the party member that has one or either!

Then there's Insight; if you're the party face, which is a common role for Bards, another party member having Insight is not nearly as useful as you having it yourself; that "Uh, hey Boss...I think he's lying" moment when your resident lie-detector interrupts and uses his Insight on your behalf somewhat reduces your bargaining power; knowing that someone else is lying is better when they don't know (or have reason to suspect) that you know.

Intelligence Saves are less common than Wis Saves, yes; more frequently you'll be making Intelligence checks and a Bard has many features that bump these up into respectable levels even when they've hard-dumped Int. I agree on Int being a dump-stat for many Bards (as it is for so many Classes). As for Int Save effects being worse than Wis Save effects? I'm not following...Wis Saves encompass the likes of Command, Hold Person, Suggestion, Confusion and Imprisonment. Int Saves cover Phantasmal Force and...uh...Feeblemind...and that's about it. That's a whole slew of crippling effects, from level 1-20, that take away your agency as a character vs. one illusion that does relatively minor damage (though I'll admit that PF is amazing if you've got a god imagination) and one very high level spell that's a pain in the butt, but at the end of the day still lets you function as a character.

[EvilAnagram]

I agree on your general point about Perception and Survival (though Perception is nice for anyone to have), but if you're going to be the skill-monkey of the group (and let's face it; Bards, especially Lore Bards, have skill proficiencies to spare)...well, you might as well be the party member that has one or either!

Then there's Insight; if you're the party face, which is a common role for Bards, another party member having Insight is not nearly as useful as you having it yourself; that "Uh, hey Boss...I think he's lying" moment when your resident lie-detector interrupts and uses his Insight on your behalf somewhat reduces your bargaining power; knowing that someone else is lying is better when they don't know (or have reason to suspect) that you know.

Intelligence Saves are less common than Wis Saves, yes; more frequently you'll be making Intelligence checks and a Bard has many features that bump these up into respectable levels even when they've hard-dumped Int. I agree on Int being a dump-stat for many Bards (as it is for so many Classes). As for Int Save effects being worse than Wis Save effects? I'm not following...Wis Saves encompass the likes of Command, Hold Person, Suggestion, Confusion and Imprisonment. Int Saves cover Phantasmal Force and...uh...Feeblemind...and that's about it. That's a whole slew of crippling effects, from level 1-20, that take away your agency as a character vs. one illusion that does relatively minor damage (though I'll admit that PF is amazing if you've got a god imagination) and one very high level spell that's a pain in the butt, but at the end of the day still lets you function as a character.
When it comes to any skill, bards have everything they need to bump up checks. It's a complete red herring to focus on them as a basis for boosting Wis above 10.

Wisdom saves are important, but no more than Con or Dex when it comes to staying in combat, and Int save failures are catastrophic. Intellect Devourers will kill you, and Feeblemind will remove your ability to cast magic for the rest of the month. Wisdom is a great save to have, but a ditsy Bard will still be effective in combat, and when a caster with Wisdom spells shows up Counterspell is your best friend (if you're a Lore Bard). It's a worthwhile investment, but it's not necessary, which makes it purple.

[JellyPooga]

It's a worthwhile investment, but it's not necessary, which makes it purple.

Hmm, I'll concede the point. Wisdom isn't particularly necessary for a Bard; no more so than for any other non-Wis based Class. I guess I just have a preference for having more Wisdom than not (then again, I also dislike having low Int and will gladly sacrifice physical scores for mental ones, especially for back-line characters like your typical non-Valour Bard; Str/Dex/Con of 8/14/12 is more than sufficient for many Bards IMO, but I digress).

[Hyperionflame]

I feel that with the tone you used for this line in your Character Race section,

"Aasimar: The Charisma is great. The rest of it is arguably better."

The color should be different then "Black". It seems, or I would argue, that Aasimar is Blue or Sky blue under Volo's new racial traits.

[EvilAnagram]

I feel that with the tone you used for this line in your Character Race section,

"Aasimar: The Charisma is great. The rest of it is arguably better."

The color should be different then "Black". It seems, or I would argue, that Aasimar is Blue or Sky blue under Volo's new racial traits.

I agree. That was a formatting error.

[Socratov]

3.5 bard was kinda bad (except in ideal situations, in which case they're okay). 5e lore bard might be the strongest in the game if you really break down the numbers. They're just very good at spreading out their power, so it makes them seem weaker at a glance.

in core only games, yeah (still not bad, but harder to be really good with), with splats the rest of the classes would soon shut up about bards being bad at DnD (well, except for the full casters)

[Hyperionflame]

I agree. That was a formatting error.

I got a reply! Love your work! Its awesome! Are you working on the other classes guides?

[Yarott]

Any plans for rating the other two Colleges (Glamour and Whispers), and the new Bard Spells from the recent "Starter Spells" UA pdf?

[Darkwingpuck]

How is Fool's Insight not sky blue!?

DM : "You feel a slight tickle in the back of your subconscious. Make a wisdom saving throw "
Deathknight McBloodrage: "I got this, my Wis save rocks." ROLLS "Ha! Rolled an 18! That's 22!"
DM: "You make the save."
Deathknight McBloodrage: "YES! "
DM: "You fart."
Deathknight McBloodrage: "YES! I ...what? "
DM: "You fart, loudly. It echoes through your DoomPlate armor like thunder."
Deathknight McBloodrage:" ...Is this really happening? In character? "
DM: "Yes. People are laughing."

I don't want to live in a world where a class ability that lets you do that ISN'T sky blue.

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't want to live in a world where a class ability that lets you do that ISN'T sky blue.

You are my spirit animal.

[EvilAnagram]

How is Fool's Insight not sky blue!?

DM : "You feel a slight tickle in the back of your subconscious. Make a wisdom saving throw "
Deathknight McBloodrage: "I got this, my Wis save rocks." ROLLS "Ha! Rolled an 18! That's 22!"
DM: "You make the save."
Deathknight McBloodrage: "YES! "
DM: "You fart."
Deathknight McBloodrage: "YES! I ...what? "
DM: "You fart, loudly. It echoes through your DoomPlate armor like thunder."
Deathknight McBloodrage:" ...Is this really happening? In character? "
DM: "Yes. People are laughing."

I don't want to live in a world where a class ability that lets you do that ISN'T sky blue.
This is the best argument I've seen since I started these.

[Andymenchaca]

About to roll a Firbolg bard from the College of Glamour. Here's hoping that he doesn't suck too much haha

[Sceptic]

I'm surprised you rate the Actor feat so highly. It's an additional point of Charisma, sure, but its other benefits are strictly situational. How often are you going to pretend to be someone else? And if you are, there are spells for that.

I'd probably rate it either purple or black.

Also, with the Healing Word spell, you may want to emphasise that it's a ranged heal on a bonus action. Even beyond the fact that Cure Wounds takes an action, it's also a touch range spell. That combination means that I'd personally downgrade Cure Wounds to black.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm surprised you rate the Actor feat so highly. It's an additional point of Charisma, sure, but its other benefits are strictly situational. How often are you going to pretend to be someone else? And if you are, there are spells for that.

I'd probably rate it either purple or black.

In the hands of a creative player, Deception is the most powerful skill in the game. For a Bard with expertise, it's essentially a no-slot spell.

Let's say an 8th level Bard needs to get into Baron X's prison, but the guards won't let him in. He can use a spell slot to get around this, sure, and at 18 Charisma the guards will only succeed 30-40% of the time, depending on their saves.

Or you can put on a fancy cape, tell them you're Lord Y here at the baron's request, and they need to let you in. Suddenly, the guards have to beat a 24 (average) with an insight check, and you haven't lost a single slot.

This is situational, sure, but the situations in which it would be useful to be someone with a degree of authority are essentially all interactions with people living in societies.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

In the hands of a creative player, Deception is the most powerful skill in the game. For a Bard with expertise, it's essentially a no-slot spell.

Let's say an 8th level Bard needs to get into Baron X's prison, but the guards won't let him in. He can use a spell slot to get around this, sure, and at 18 Charisma the guards will only succeed 30-40% of the time, depending on their saves.

Or you can put on a fancy cape, tell them you're Lord Y here at the baron's request, and they need to let you in. Suddenly, the guards have to beat a 24 (average) with an insight check, and you haven't lost a single slot.

This is situational, sure, but the situations in which it would be useful to be someone with a degree of authority are essentially all interactions with people living in societies.

No, a) because quite a lot of the time you want to be yourself, b) because frequently you don't want to take the risk, c) because convincing someone you are who you say you are is not the same as getting them to do what you want (like if the guards are under strict orders not to let anyone in without ID, because of that spate of impersonations lately) and d) because impersonation gets more difficult the longer it goes on and the more you do it in the same area.

And that's assuming you have a reasonably cooperative DM, and a character concept conducive to being a con artist. Actor really should be purple, with an exception for when you have odd cha and all other attributes even.

[EvilAnagram]

No, a) because quite a lot of the time you want to be yourself
Not necessarily the case.


b) because frequently you don't want to take the risk
I rarely see players assess risks outside of judging the particular deadliness of a single creature. This is actually much less risky than most charm spells, without spell slots.


c) because convincing someone you are who you say you are is not the same as getting them to do what you want
This is your worst point. You have advantage on deception checks, and that makes it very easy to convince people to do what you want. Hell, half the time convincing someone that you're in a position of power is more than enough to get them to do what you want.


d) because impersonation gets more difficult the longer it goes on and the more you do it in the same area.
That depends on the specifics. If you're impersonating a bunch of different people, and the frauds are found out, then sure. If you're pulling a long con, then there's no reason to increase the difficulty


And that's assuming you have a reasonably cooperative DM, and a character concept conducive to being a con artist.
Yup. Bad DMs do tend to make options less viable.

[Klorox]

What makes war caster such a great feat for this class? Especially a lore bard?

[BiPolar]

What makes war caster such a great feat for this class? Especially a lore bard?

Advantage on Concentration saves (odds are, you've got a concentration spell going) and being able to use a spell on an opportunity attack (may not have a weapon drawn)

[juanzbozo]

What are your thoughts on the revised college of swords. I was going to play a bladesinger candidate that starts as a bard (swords) and then multiclasses to mage (bladesinger) but with the modifications to Blade Flourish i don't think it is that good mechanically besides the flavour of it. I am still aiming to hold a sword and be at the front line, but maybe taking college of lore is a better choice for all the utility of it features.
What do you think?

The Pc is a half elf with stats: St 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Cha 16, Wis 8. We use fixed stats instead of point array.
The multiclass might be after level 8, but i haven't fully planned it, besides the fact that i am aiming for a versatile, utility Gish.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A couple of things I'd like to say about the Cleric Dip:

You get Medium Armor Proficiency plus Shield Proficiency. This means you go from Studded Leather (+2 AC) to Breast Plate + Shield (+6 AC) for Lore Bards, which is a net +4 to AC. And that's only if you care about sneaking. If you don't mind disadvantage, you can get Half Plate and go up to +7 AC. Especially if your Dex is already 15 or less (which it probably is, since you have Cha and Con to worry about first), the cap on Dex bonus is likely not an issue.

* Knowledge Domain - two free knowledge-type skill proficiencies (on top of your already impressive allotment from your class and background, plus you DID go Lore Bard if you are skill-focused, right?) plus free Expertise in both! That's certainly worth a dip. The cantrips are ancillary, but can be useful, like Guidance. Advances casting since it is a full caster. Two level dip nets you situational proficiency in anything for 10 minutes, which is more than enough for a check off of a skill that no one thought to pick up that turns up. And it's a Channel Divinity action, which means you refresh them on a short rest. It's not like you're using those on trying to turn undead, after all, so your skill list is effectively 'all of them', unless you're having to use skills you don't already have (which, at this point is 3 from bard + 3 from Lore College + 2 from Background + 2 from the Knowledge domain, which is already most of them) consistently. Realistically, unless no one took ANY skills at all, or all took the exact same ones, you're going to run out of situations where you need this before you run out of uses. I would rate this Blue for Lore Bards wanting to be Skillmonkey, but Black or even Purple for Valor Bards who are more martial focused. It is also the only one worth a two-level dip, the rest are only for 1 level dips.

* Life Domain - It never specifies that the healing spells have to be cast as Cleric spells. Bards get fun heals as well, so you get to have your cake and eat it too. Not that Bards should really be healer-focused, but a source of backup heals can often be invaluable if the primary healer goes down. Valor Bards also enjoy Heavy Armor Proficiency. Call it purple for Lore Bards and Black for Valor Bards.

* Light Domain - Not nearly as useful, but forcing disadvantage on an attack as a reaction is never a bad thing. Purple for all Bards.

* Nature Domain - Picking up Shelaleagh as a cantrip is always fun, d10 weapon is always a hoot, especially if your GM lets you use your Bard casting stat as your damage bonus and attack stat. Bonus skill can help shore up weaknesses if you don't have a Ranger/Druid in the party. Valor Bards also enjoy the Heavy Armor proficiency. I'd rate it Black for either Lore or Valor Bards.

* Tempest Domain - Worst of the bunch. Don't get this as a Bard.

* Trickery - Giving someone (like the Rogue) Advantage on Stealth checks? Yes, please. And there's apparently no limit on use, so effectively always on. Nifty! Lore Bards make use out of the medium armor proficiencies and shield proficiencies as described above, making this a Blue level dip. Valor Bards may find value in the second level dip and getting Advantage on attack rolls against a target, but still purple at best.

* War Domain - Well, Valor Bards will only get the Heavy Armor Mastery, but attacking as a bonus action can always be fun, but only once or twice before a long rest. Black, or maybe purple. Lore Bards pick up a ton of proficiencies, so this will be a solid black option for them.

In short, Lore Bards can make a lot of use out of a one or two level dip in Knowledge Domain Cleric. It significantly increases their AC and also their skills known and even skills with Expertise. The second level dip basically means never having to worry about not being proficient in a skill ever. Valor Bards might make use out of the Heavy Armor Proficiency and extra healing from Life domain and able to act as a secondary healer, or from Nature which also nets Heavy Armor Proficiency plus a cantrip that gives them a 1d10 one handed melee weapon.

[Specter]

A couple of things I'd like to say about the Cleric Dip:

You get Medium Armor Proficiency plus Shield Proficiency. This means you go from Studded Leather (+2 AC) to Breast Plate + Shield (+6 AC) for Lore Bards, which is a net +4 to AC. And that's only if you care about sneaking. If you don't mind disadvantage, you can get Half Plate and go up to +7 AC. Especially if your Dex is already 15 or less (which it probably is, since you have Cha and Con to worry about first), the cap on Dex bonus is likely not an issue.

* Knowledge Domain - two free knowledge-type skill proficiencies (on top of your already impressive allotment from your class and background, plus you DID go Lore Bard if you are skill-focused, right?) plus free Expertise in both! That's certainly worth a dip. The cantrips are ancillary, but can be useful, like Guidance. Advances casting since it is a full caster. Two level dip nets you situational proficiency in anything for 10 minutes, which is more than enough for a check off of a skill that no one thought to pick up that turns up. And it's a Channel Divinity action, which means you refresh them on a short rest. It's not like you're using those on trying to turn undead, after all, so your skill list is effectively 'all of them', unless you're having to use skills you don't already have (which, at this point is 3 from bard + 3 from Lore College + 2 from Background + 2 from the Knowledge domain, which is already most of them) consistently. Realistically, unless no one took ANY skills at all, or all took the exact same ones, you're going to run out of situations where you need this before you run out of uses. I would rate this Blue for Lore Bards wanting to be Skillmonkey, but Black or even Purple for Valor Bards who are more martial focused. It is also the only one worth a two-level dip, the rest are only for 1 level dips.

* Life Domain - It never specifies that the healing spells have to be cast as Cleric spells. Bards get fun heals as well, so you get to have your cake and eat it too. Not that Bards should really be healer-focused, but a source of backup heals can often be invaluable if the primary healer goes down. Valor Bards also enjoy Heavy Armor Proficiency. Call it purple for Lore Bards and Black for Valor Bards.

* Light Domain - Not nearly as useful, but forcing disadvantage on an attack as a reaction is never a bad thing. Purple for all Bards.

* Nature Domain - Picking up Shelaleagh as a cantrip is always fun, d10 weapon is always a hoot, especially if your GM lets you use your Bard casting stat as your damage bonus and attack stat. Bonus skill can help shore up weaknesses if you don't have a Ranger/Druid in the party. Valor Bards also enjoy the Heavy Armor proficiency. I'd rate it Black for either Lore or Valor Bards.

* Tempest Domain - Worst of the bunch. Don't get this as a Bard.

* Trickery - Giving someone (like the Rogue) Advantage on Stealth checks? Yes, please. And there's apparently no limit on use, so effectively always on. Nifty! Lore Bards make use out of the medium armor proficiencies and shield proficiencies as described above, making this a Blue level dip. Valor Bards may find value in the second level dip and getting Advantage on attack rolls against a target, but still purple at best.

* War Domain - Well, Valor Bards will only get the Heavy Armor Mastery, but attacking as a bonus action can always be fun, but only once or twice before a long rest. Black, or maybe purple. Lore Bards pick up a ton of proficiencies, so this will be a solid black option for them.

In short, Lore Bards can make a lot of use out of a one or two level dip in Knowledge Domain Cleric. It significantly increases their AC and also their skills known and even skills with Expertise. The second level dip basically means never having to worry about not being proficient in a skill ever. Valor Bards might make use out of the Heavy Armor Proficiency and extra healing from Life domain and able to act as a secondary healer, or from Nature which also nets Heavy Armor Proficiency plus a cantrip that gives them a 1d10 one handed melee weapon.

This is all nice, but to do that you would have to boost WIS, which is a stat Bards don't care about. So there's that. If you're interested in AC dipping then Fighter is the way to go, because of the Defense FS.

[krunchyfrogg]

This is all nice, but to do that you would have to boost WIS, which is a stat Bards don't care about. So there's that. If you're interested in AC dipping then Fighter is the way to go, because of the Defense FS.

I agree with ShneekeyTheLost.

He's not suggesting the two level cleric dip to increase AC, he's listing the AC as an ancillary bonus.

The real draw is the character continues full spellcaster progression, gains more skills (with expertise), and the ability to be proficient in ANY skill for 10 minutes.

[dnd2016]

What would you lose on a first level cleric dip? I'm approaching 8th level bard, going to take resilient then was thinking of a cleric dip at 9th. Is the only thing I'm losing is a delay in magical secrets one level later? My dex is 18 and a have plus one leather armor.

[EvilAnagram]

What are your thoughts on the revised college of swords. I was going to play a bladesinger candidate that starts as a bard (swords) and then multiclasses to mage (bladesinger) but with the modifications to Blade Flourish i don't think it is that good mechanically besides the flavour of it. I am still aiming to hold a sword and be at the front line, but maybe taking college of lore is a better choice for all the utility of it features.
What do you think?

The Pc is a half elf with stats: St 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Cha 16, Wis 8. We use fixed stats instead of point array.
The multiclass might be after level 8, but i haven't fully planned it, besides the fact that i am aiming for a versatile, utility Gish.

Honestly, I think gaining access to Dueling and Blade Flourish is pretty sweet. The abilities aren't great, but the basic Blade Flourish doesn't expend any resources, and the bonuses with your Bardic Inspiration aren't bad.

If you're multiclassing Bladesinger, then you're right about picking Lore over Valor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This is all nice, but to do that you would have to boost WIS, which is a stat Bards don't care about. So there's that. If you're interested in AC dipping then Fighter is the way to go, because of the Defense FS.

A WIS of 13 is not particularly difficult to obtain, particularly not if, as you suggest, you go Human, who get +1 to two stats, so you only need a base 12 to do it. Considering WIS is a common 'save or lose' saving throw, and the only thing more embarrassing to a bard than rolling a natural 1 on his performance check is getting punked by another bard's mind-affecting spell... that's not such a stretch.

So, let's look at what you get:

* AC. Yes, you can get it with a Fighter dip... but it doesn't advance casting progression. Which IS important.
* Two MORE skills you are not only Proficient in, but have Expertise in
* Effectively 'have proficiency in any skill I need at the moment' Schroedinger's Skillmonkey
* A few ancillary cantrips and some spells that you can pick that aren't stat-dependent because your Wis isn't much compared to your Charisma, but nontheless is MORE spells than you had before.

Yea, that's seriously worth a dip, I think.

[JellyPooga]

A WIS of 13 is not particularly difficult to obtain, particularly not if, as you suggest, you go Human, who get +1 to two stats, so you only need a base 12 to do it. Considering WIS is a common 'save or lose' saving throw, and the only thing more embarrassing to a bard than rolling a natural 1 on his performance check is getting punked by another bard's mind-affecting spell... that's not such a stretch.

So, let's look at what you get:

* AC. Yes, you can get it with a Fighter dip... but it doesn't advance casting progression. Which IS important.
* Two MORE skills you are not only Proficient in, but have Expertise in
* Effectively 'have proficiency in any skill I need at the moment' Schroedinger's Skillmonkey
* A few ancillary cantrips and some spells that you can pick that aren't stat-dependent because your Wis isn't much compared to your Charisma, but nontheless is MORE spells than you had before.

Yea, that's seriously worth a dip, I think.

Worth consideration, certainly, but what do you trade for these boons?

- Delayed access to higher level spells. You may have the slots, but upcast spells simply don't have the same punch as higher level spells.

- Bardic Inspiration die type. BI is both powerful and iconic. Improvements to it are key to a good Bard. As an ancillary note, dipping out of Bard will also delay your Song of Rest die type.

- Delayed ASI's. Not a huge factor, but combined with the Wis requirement to dip Cleric, thus may find you lagging in the Stats department. Even if it doesn't, Feats are valuable and delaying getting one is worth serious consideration before committing to it.

- Magical Secrets. Considered by many to be one of the most powerful single Class Features in the game. Do you really want to delay getting access to every spell in the game?

- Expertise. Unlike Rogues, who get their Expertise early in their career, the Bard doesn't get his first pair until level 3 and their second pair until level 10. Expertise in two Lore skills from Cleric is all well and good, but also of limited utility. Dounle proficiemcy in Stealth, Athletics or Perception will very likely see far greater use than Arcana or Religion.

- College Features. Peerless Skill and Battle Magic are, simply put, awesome. I wouldn't want to wait any longer than I have to to pick those up.

Tl;dr - Dips mean delays and delays mean you may not ever see results, depending on the campaign and what level you finish at (assuming you survive that long...)

[Citan]

I agree with ShneekeyTheLost.

He's not suggesting the two level cleric dip to increase AC, he's listing the AC as an ancillary bonus.

The real draw is the character continues full spellcaster progression, gains more skills (with expertise), and the ability to be proficient in ANY skill for 10 minutes.


Worth consideration, certainly, but what do you trade for these boons?

1- Delayed access to higher level spells. You may have the slots, but upcast spells simply don't have the same punch as higher level spells.

2- Bardic Inspiration die type. BI is both powerful and iconic. Improvements to it are key to a good Bard. As an ancillary note, dipping out of Bard will also delay your Song of Rest die type.

3- Delayed ASI's. Not a huge factor, but combined with the Wis requirement to dip Cleric, thus may find you lagging in the Stats department. Even if it doesn't, Feats are valuable and delaying getting one is worth serious consideration before committing to it.

4- Magical Secrets. Considered by many to be one of the most powerful single Class Features in the game. Do you really want to delay getting access to every spell in the game?

5- Expertise. Unlike Rogues, who get their Expertise early in their career, the Bard doesn't get his first pair until level 3 and their second pair until level 10. Expertise in two Lore skills from Cleric is all well and good, but also of limited utility. Dounle proficiemcy in Stealth, Athletics or Perception will very likely see far greater use than Arcana or Religion.

6- College Features. Peerless Skill and Battle Magic are, simply put, awesome. I wouldn't want to wait any longer than I have to to pick those up.

Tl;dr - Dips mean delays and delays mean you may not ever see results, depending on the campaign and what level you finish at (assuming you survive that long...)
Some good points, some lesser good.

1. Bad point: any few hours spent on this forum is enough to realize that there are a bunch of 1st-level, 2nd level and 3rd level spells that are cast any and every encounter right up until you reach character level 20.
So, sure, you will play with that Animate Objects, Contingency or Simulacrum much later. And that is a tough point. But if in exchange for that you kept your whole party alive because during all these months/years you kept Bless active and it made the difference much more often than once, or if you saved even just once your Monk/Warlock/Sorcerer pal's ass from definitive, irremediate death by casting Sanctuary to help him escape a pinch safely, the ROI is extremely good.
Sure, you could have picked those spells with Magic Secrets, but that means you definitely lost the chance to get 2 "out-of Bard" spells. Whereas getting them by dipping means "just" waiting a greater time to get them.
Same whenever that Channel Divinity came in handy to resolve a situation in which a particular skill was required, nobody in the party being proficient in.

2. Bad point: a die size makes a slight difference, but not that much of a difference as long as it is only for 2 levels. And Song of Rest is by far the most "meh" of Bard features.

3. Decent point: Bard does not need that much ASIs compared to others, and you can very easily start with the required WIS, but bumping CHA at least once early is important.

4. Generally good point: same kind as the first, except the opportunity cost is higher because you get to choose whatever spell you want. But if your goal was to be the party buffer/healer as your primary goal, you would have probably picked up some Bless / Shield of Faith / Sanctuary with Magic Secrets, so it's a wash. In other occurences, yeah it's a significant drawback.

5. Variable point: this one totally depends on DM. With a DMs that doesn't care about giving you chances of using these "knowledge skills" (which I would call "bad DMing" but that's another matter) yeah the "similar Expertise" is worthless. Otherwise it's golden...
- Befriend a high priest/councelor/arcanist by showing off your expertise in the fields him/herself is dedicating life to.
- Identify a creature precisely, with rough indication of its HP, AC and main tactics will prove invaluable to your party (yeah, you can metagame by learning the Monster Manual, but isn't that sad and lame?) (any of the skills depending on creature's "type").
- Avoid a painful curse to your friend by deciphering the marks on this powerful-looking equipment (Arcana).
- Find hidden places or predict probable course of events thanks to your accurate knowledge of local factions, their customs and objectives (History/Religion).
And I probably forgot at still half of the common use-cases for those...

And the fact that it relies on a "dump stat" (INT) is irrelevant since you get double profiency bonus so you will be still very good at it.

You also learn two more languages to make you a specialist in "social spying" (especially paired with Observant) or scouting when close to enemies (which a Bard can do nicely with a bit of smarts and occasional spell).

6. Variable point: for a Bard that aims to be the "utility monkey" (which is the reason to dip Knowledge), Peerless Skill is indeed a priority feature, and waiting two more levels for it is tough. Still, you have the Expertise and simili-Expertise in the first place, so it's more a matter of what skills you plan to use regularly. Also, on flip side...
a) Your Channel Divinity provides proficiency in any skill for 10 mn, at the start of your career. Peerless Skill is available only in the last quarter of your life, providing you are still alive. So it's immediately, directly useful.
b) When you should normally get Peerless Skill, you have a proficiency bonus of +5: flat, reliable, 10mn long. Your BI die as a pure Bard would be a d10, for average 5,5. So while Peerless Skill would be potentially better for one-shot tries (like using Lockpicking in a tense situation), CD provides an easier to use bonus (flat, larger timeframe to choose the best moment to act).
c) Two levels later, you can combine both to make you a "simili-expert" in whatever skill you may need, every short rest.

7. Finally, last point: nobody imposes any player to take the 2 Cleric levels together, right off the start.
Especially if Knowledge is selected since it doesn't add any further armor/weapon proficiencies like Nature/War/Life.
So a player can easily start Bard, grab the first level of Knowledge Cleric as soon as he feels he needs the related spells (also makes room for Healing Words ;)), then continue Bard then take the second level when he wants to gain the versatility.
Or decide he will be "the One who Blesses" and start as a Cleric, then go Bard all the way right up to level 14/15 because he didn't feel the need for Channel Divinity before then.
Or decide he will the "the One who Knows Everything" and start as Bard, immediately go Cleric, then back as Lore Bard, focusing on out-of-combat utility and Bless/Sacred Flame/weapon attack during the fight.
Or just be a Bard, and after some levels realizes that the whole group could use a party buff such as Bless because they face (AOE) spells a tad too often, or situations in which they lacked the skill to provide the best reaction happened too often to his taste.

End note: as often with people on this forum, you tend to forget that combat is not always the only answer to a given situation. Sometimes peaceful (or at least indirectly conflictual) resolutions prove better for the group, either directly (better rewards) or indirectly (lesser antagonisms developing in the future). And that is another form of optimization. :)

[JellyPooga]

1. Bad point: any few hours spent on this forum is enough to realize that there are a bunch of 1st-level, 2nd level and 3rd level spells that are cast any and every encounter right up until you reach character level 20.
So, sure, you will play with that Animate Objects, Contingency or Simulacrum much later. And that is a tough point. But if in exchange for that you kept your whole party alive because during all these months/years you kept Bless active and it made the difference much more often than once, or if you saved even just once your Monk/Warlock/Sorcerer pal's ass from definitive, irremediate death by casting Sanctuary to help him escape a pinch safely, the ROI is extremely good.
Sure, you could have picked those spells with Magic Secrets, but that means you definitely lost the chance to get 2 "out-of Bard" spells. Whereas getting them by dipping means "just" waiting a greater time to get them.
Same whenever that Channel Divinity came in handy to resolve a situation in which a particular skill was required, nobody in the party being proficient in.

I won't deny the utility of 1st level Cleric spells; they're definitely among the best of pretty much any Class...but they're still only 1st level spells. Bless is great, no doubt, but it simply doesn't compare to Polymorph or Hold Monster when you're playing in the big-leagues.


2. Bad point: a die size makes a slight difference, but not that much of a difference as long as it is only for 2 levels. And Song of Rest is by far the most "meh" of Bard features.

"Only" 2 levels can be months worth of gaming hours. It doesn't look like much going up a die type; it's only an average of +1 per die...but your average Bard gets 3-5 uses of BI per Short Rest (after 5th level). So assuming 2 short rests per adventuring day, that's 3x(3 to 5) or 9 to 15 +1's that don't require concentration and are activated as a bonus action. Compared to Bless which gives an average of +2.5 to three targets, as a full action, taking concentration, at the expenditure of a spell slot, it's a solid boon to get that increased die type.

I only mentioned Song of Rest because as fringe a benefit as it is, it is still something sacrificed and like BI, the cumulative benefit of that increased die type shouldn't be overlooked.


5. Variable point: this one totally depends on DM.

I won't disagree with your comments here, but the general point that Expertise is better stands.


6. Variable point: for a Bard that aims to be the "utility monkey" (which is the reason to dip Knowledge), Peerless Skill is indeed a priority feature, and waiting two more levels for it is tough. Still, you have the Expertise and simili-Expertise in the first place, so it's more a matter of what skills you plan to use regularly. Also, on flip side...
a) Your Channel Divinity provides proficiency in any skill for 10 mn, at the start of your career. Peerless Skill is available only in the last quarter of your life, providing you are still alive. So it's immediately, directly useful.
b) When you should normally get Peerless Skill, you have a proficiency bonus of +5: flat, reliable, 10mn long. Your BI die as a pure Bard would be a d10, for average 5,5. So while Peerless Skill would be potentially better for one-shot tries (like using Lockpicking in a tense situation), CD provides an easier to use bonus (flat, larger timeframe to choose the best moment to act).
c) Two levels later, you can combine both to make you a "simili-expert" in whatever skill you may need, every short rest.

On the subject of Peerless Skill, I'll note that whilr the Clerics Channel Divinity will give you +5 or +6, you've already got +2 or +3 from JoaT and that Peerless Skill stacks with both Proficiency anf Expertise.

[Citan]

On the subject of Peerless Skill, I'll note that whilr the Clerics Channel Divinity will give you +5 or +6, you've already got +2 or +3 from JoaT and that Peerless Skill stacks with both Proficiency anf Expertise.
Oh, right, forgot about that. Good one, it does reduce the benefit of CD indeed. :)

[vehementi]

So like, the revised school of swords seems really overpowered, at least compared to valor.

- being able to use your weapon as casting focus means we don't really need warcaster
- dueling style lets you have the damage of a greataxe while using a 1h finesse weapon (rapier, +2 damage) and while using a shield [don't use TWF here since bards need their bonus action a lot]
- the flourishes are just gravy and now they don't take a bonus action.

Am I missing something? This seems amazing.

[SharkForce]

So like, the revised school of swords seems really overpowered, at least compared to valor.

- being able to use your weapon as casting focus means we don't really need warcaster
- dueling style lets you have the damage of a greataxe while using a 1h finesse weapon (rapier, +2 damage) and while using a shield [don't use TWF here since bards need their bonus action a lot]
- the flourishes are just gravy and now they don't take a bonus action.

Am I missing something? This seems amazing.

fwiw, this is probably partly due to the fact that valour bard is pretty terrible at turning you into a gish. unless you use mean a bow-using gish, which can work quite well thanks to stealing all of the ranger archery spells before the ranger even gets close to them.

[Arkhios]

So like, the revised school of swords seems really overpowered, at least compared to valor.

- being able to use your weapon as casting focus means we don't really need warcaster
- dueling style lets you have the damage of a greataxe while using a 1h finesse weapon (rapier, +2 damage) and while using a shield [don't use TWF here since bards need their bonus action a lot]
- the flourishes are just gravy and now they don't take a bonus action.

Am I missing something? This seems amazing.

I wouldn't make rushed conclusions just yet, College of Swords is going to be official with Xanathar's Guide, but the version in UA might not be precisely same as the final version in the book.

[Saiga]

So like, the revised school of swords seems really overpowered, at least compared to valor.

- being able to use your weapon as casting focus means we don't really need warcaster
- dueling style lets you have the damage of a greataxe while using a 1h finesse weapon (rapier, +2 damage) and while using a shield [don't use TWF here since bards need their bonus action a lot]
- the flourishes are just gravy and now they don't take a bonus action.

Am I missing something? This seems amazing.

Pretty sure you don't get Shield proficiency, which means you'd have a free hand and little need for using the weapon as a focus (that would help TWF, except TWF doesn't work with Blade Flourish)

The revised version had some cool ideas but ''incredibly'' poor synergy in the features

[vehementi]

Pretty sure you don't get Shield proficiency, which means you'd have a free hand and little need for using the weapon as a focus (that would help TWF, except TWF doesn't work with Blade Flourish)

The revised version had some cool ideas but ''incredibly'' poor synergy in the features

Despite people's reading of "but it doesn't say attack action", the fact that the feature gives you TWF suggests they intend you to have it work with the flourishes. I would certainly grant off hand attacks to my players. Has WOTC clarified this or do they usually not rule on UA stuff?

Anyway, yes you're right about the shield proficiency, so this is more boiled down to "can get 2h weapon damage, with dex instead of str, and without needing war caster". Hmm...

[Saiga]

Despite people's reading of "but it doesn't say attack action", the fact that the feature gives you TWF suggests they intend you to have it work with the flourishes. I would certainly grant off hand attacks to my players. Has WOTC clarified this or do they usually not rule on UA stuff?

Anyway, yes you're right about the shield proficiency, so this is more boiled down to "can get 2h weapon damage, with dex instead of str, and without needing war caster". Hmm...

They tweeted that it's a trade-off between using flourishes and TWF, so apparently it was no intended to work. Which is silly, because lack of Extra Attack makes TWF waaay worse an option than just Dueling with a rapier.

The preview video for it today makes it sound like they're going to amend this in the final version, though. Fingers crossed!

[Klorox]

I think a 1 level dip (preferably to start) of knowledge cleric for lore bards is so darn good, especially considering their capstone sucks.

Better saving throws, better AC, some great cantrips (sacred flame targets DEX, which is rare for bard spells, thaumategury is great for RP reasons, and guidance is flat out amazing), and you don’t lose a spellcasting level.

JMO

[Arkhios]

I think a 1 level dip (preferably to start) of knowledge cleric for lore bards is so darn good, especially considering their capstone sucks.

Better saving throws, better AC, some great cantrips (sacred flame targets DEX, which is rare for bard spells, thaumategury is great for RP reasons, and guidance is flat out amazing), and you don’t lose a spellcasting level.

JMO

Aren't you forgetting something there? Specifically saving throw proficiencies with multiclassing. (You only get the saving throw proficiencies from the initial class, never from another class unless a specific class feature says otherwise).
Also, while it's true that Sacred Flame targets DEX, gaining it from cleric means you use your WIS to calculate its Saving Throw DC (because it's still a cleric spell).

[Klorox]

Aren't you forgetting something there? Specifically saving throw proficiencies with multiclassing. (You only get the saving throw proficiencies from the initial class, never from another class unless a specific class feature says otherwise).
Also, while it's true that Sacred Flame targets DEX, gaining it from cleric means you use your WIS to calculate its Saving Throw DC (because it's still a cleric spell).

I'm not forgetting anything.

1) WIS saving throws, while less common that DEX saving throws, are much worse to fail.

2) It depends what your WIS score is to see if sacred flame is worth it.

[Arkhios]

I'm not forgetting anything.

1) WIS saving throws, while less common that DEX saving throws, are much worse to fail.

2) It depends what your WIS score is to see if sacred flame is worth it.

Fair enough.

[Finger6842]

Hi,

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels, I find it harder.

I'm sure others would like some notes on this as well.

Thanks

Keeping in mind that my focus as a Lore Bard was versatility so a lot of "out of combat" usable bard spells. This allowed me to focus on combat spells for magical secrets. I was ranged (bow/spell) focused since my AC/HP were low. We had both a Paladin and a Cleric in the party so healing was a low priority.

If it helps, I took (considered taking):
6th: Counterspell, Haste (Armor of Agathys, Find Familiar, Shield, Find Steed, Prayer of Healing, Spiritual Weapon, Aura of Vitality, Fireball)
10th: Banishing Smite, Wall of Force (Awaken, Fabricate, Bigby's Hand, Conjure Volley, Passwall, Swift Quiver, Telekinesis)
14th: Finger of Death, Simulacrum (Chain Lightning, Contingency, Disintegrate) (*Investiture spells weren't around yet)
18th: Wish, Meteor Swarm (Foresight, True Polymorph, Mass Heal, Time Stop)

There are a ton of other spells that are incredibly useful. Fabricate for example is one of the most useful spells in the game, and of course, Fireball makes every caster salivate.

This character wound up 18 Bard/2 Wizard. At first, Wizard was an odd MAD multiclass choice based on a magic item that bumped my INT from 11 to 19. I found that I loved all the extra low-level spells and the ritual capabilities of the spellbook. It really increased the flexibility of my character. There were far more powerful characters in the party but none of them had the choices both in and out of combat that I enjoyed.

[mormon_soldier]

I am playing a level 3 Valor bard with plans to dip into paladin for 2 levels at level 7. Are there any spells I really ought to take?

[nirurin]

They tweeted that it's a trade-off between using flourishes and TWF, so apparently it was no intended to work. Which is silly, because lack of Extra Attack makes TWF waaay worse an option than just Dueling with a rapier.

The preview video for it today makes it sound like they're going to amend this in the final version, though. Fingers crossed!


Is there a newer version of this guide, or has noone really had much experience with the new XGTE rules yet?

On an instant plus-note, far as I can see the rules were changed from the original UA version, as it does seem that you can use both Two Weapon Fighting and still use a Flourish.

I don't know if this is enough to make Swords a good option, but I do like that aspect of it at least! I'd be tempted by 3 levels in Swords just to get the Flourishes and TWF.

[MeeposFire]

Is there a newer version of this guide, or has noone really had much experience with the new XGTE rules yet?

On an instant plus-note, far as I can see the rules were changed from the original UA version, as it does seem that you can use both Two Weapon Fighting and still use a Flourish.

I don't know if this is enough to make Swords a good option, but I do like that aspect of it at least! I'd be tempted by 3 levels in Swords just to get the Flourishes and TWF.

Yea the flourishes are no longer the way to make attacks and rather boost attacks you already made. Blades look like a lot of fun.

[Saiga]

Is there a newer version of this guide, or has noone really had much experience with the new XGTE rules yet?

On an instant plus-note, far as I can see the rules were changed from the original UA version, as it does seem that you can use both Two Weapon Fighting and still use a Flourish.

I don't know if this is enough to make Swords a good option, but I do like that aspect of it at least! I'd be tempted by 3 levels in Swords just to get the Flourishes and TWF.

Yeah, they fixed up the action economy and Blades is awesome for TWF now!

Unfortunately they turned around and made the exact opposite changes to Storm Barbarian ruining that classes' action economy...

[ShareDVI]

Divine Soul Sorcerer is an amasing multiclass for a support-oriented Lore Bard. 3 levels give you Twinned Spell for the Haste you pick up via Magical Secrets, and one other metamagic (Subtle for social manipulations via charm/illusions/suggestion, Heightened for save-or-suck spells like Dissonant Whispers, or Careful for Faerie Fires).

As for spells, take Bless, Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon and Mirror Image/Aid.

4th level gives you also an ability to twin Greater Invisibility, a lost ASI, and another spell (Aid/Mirror Image).

5th level gives you the ability to twin Dominate and grab whatever you didn't grab with magical secrets (Fireball, Counterspell, Revivify).

[werescythe]

So I noticed that the College of Whispers from the new Xanathar's Guide isn't in here. I was just wondering if you were working on adding that.

[craverguy]

Build advice requested:

As a Drow, you eventually get Faerie Fire and Darkness once a day, and can also take a racial feat that lets you cast Dispel Magic once a day. These are all also spells on the Bard spell list, and very highly rated in your guide. My question is, if I'm playing as a Drow Bard, are any of these worth taking as Bard spells, or will using them once a day as racial abilities generally be sufficient?

[mormon_soldier]

Build advice requested:

As a Drow, you eventually get Faerie Fire and Darkness once a day, and can also take a racial feat that lets you cast Dispel Magic once a day. These are all also spells on the Bard spell list, and very highly rated in your guide. My question is, if I'm playing as a Drow Bard, are any of these worth taking as Bard spells, or will using them once a day as racial abilities generally be sufficient?

My bard is frontline support for a party of 6 and I'm using farie fire at least once a combat. I highly recommend it as a spell, especially if your DM likes big monsters and multiple combats in a day.

[KillingTime]

I'm actually playing a Drow bard at the moment in OotA.

I picked faerie fire as one of my known spells, but I have to say I'm considering dropping it.
The racial slot has proved to be enough in the main, and I really need the space for third level spells when I next level up.

FYI I'm running a Drow lore bard lvl4
C: Dancing Lights/Friends/Minor Illusion/Vicious Mockery
1: Bane/Dissonant Whispers/Faerie Fire/Healing Word
2: Heat Metal/Hold Person/Suggestion

I'd ideally like to take Hypnotic Pattern and one from Bestow Curse/Fear/Major Image.
With another one of the above plus Counterspell & Pass Without Trace coming from magical secrets at 6th.

A note on Bane while I'm at it.
I was never a fan of this spell when I used it before as a warlock.
On a lore bard it's a very different beast because it partners so well with cutting words. Also it's one of the very few ways of reducing enemy saving throws, which is invaluable for bardic debuffs.

[GadgieCAT13]

Thanks for this!!

Sarah Stone is the artist of the Tiefling bard

[werescythe]

The College of Whispers and the College of Glamour looks fun. I hope you will add them to this guide soon. :smallsmile:

[werescythe]

Does anyone have any tips for the Glamour Bard from the Xanathar's Guide?

[Dekker500]

Jack of All Trades: You will never be bad at a skill. Also applies to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and Telekinesis ability checks, which is pretty damned helpful.


You missed another extremely helpful bonus from Jack of All Trades - It applies to Initiative as well!

As mentioned in the Official Sage Advice Compendium (dang, can't post links, work this into your browser manually then - h t tp media.wizards.com /2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) , at the top of page 9,

... initiative rolls are Dexterity checks, so Jack
of All Trades can benefit a bard’s initiative, assuming the
bard isn’t already adding his or her proficiency bonus to it.

That clarification/ruling alone makes Jack of All Trades one of the most frequently used Bard ability!

[EvilAnagram]

Thanks for this!!

Sarah Stone is the artist of the Tiefling bard

Thank you! Giving credit where it's due is very important to me.


You missed another extremely helpful bonus from Jack of All Trades - It applies to Initiative as well!

This is a good point. I'll work it in when I update for XGtE.

[Spamotron]

Now that Adventurer's League has announced that they're going to use the Treasure Points variant for magic items described in Xanathar's Guide it looks like being able to choose your items is going to become far more common. Perhaps a more detailed look at magic items in your guides is in order.

[EvilAnagram]

Now that Adventurer's League has announced that they're going to use the Treasure Points variant for magic items described in Xanathar's Guide it looks like being able to choose your items is going to become far more common. Perhaps a more detailed look at magic items in your guides is in order.

How about I catch all of my guides up to the XGtE spells and archetypes, and then we talk about adding magic items.

[KillingTime]

OK here's a question:
Best 3rd level spells for a drow lore bard.....

I'm trying to keep reasonably themed with this character, which is heavy on the charms and enchantments, but low on more obvious flash-bang or real physical effect damage. Illusions are ok though.
I'm also trying to cover the bases as far as targetting different saves, so anything that avoids an overabundance of Wis save spells is a good thing.

My Picks:
Bestow Curse - The ubiquitous Wis save, but a powerful and versatile spell. Unlikely to be a real combat turner though.
Fear - More Wis saves, but with a strong AOE.
Hypnotic Pattern - Yet another Wis save. Kind of similar to Fear in many respects so both would be somewhat redundant. Probably the stronger of the two given the range and more limited allowance for effected creatures to re-save.
Enemies Abound - Now we're talking! Int save! And a potentially devastating effect if you target the right enemy. Nice range too.

Outside Choices:
Stinking Cloud - Not a bad spell, and brings another new save into play (Con), but doesn't really fit my theme if I'm being picky. Could always re-skin it for fluff though.
Dispel Magic - Useful but boring, especially since I already plan to take Counterspell with magical secrets next level. Will probably leave this to the wizard.

As you can probably tell, I'm leaning towards Hypnotic Pattern and Enemies Abound, but I would be keen to hear alternative ideas.

[scoutsdoitbettr]

OK here's a question:
Best 3rd level spells for a drow lore bard.....

I'm trying to keep reasonably themed with this character, which is heavy on the charms and enchantments, but low on more obvious flash-bang or real physical effect damage. Illusions are ok though.
I'm also trying to cover the bases as far as targetting different saves, so anything that avoids an overabundance of Wis save spells is a good thing.

My Picks:
Bestow Curse - The ubiquitous Wis save, but a powerful and versatile spell. Unlikely to be a real combat turner though.
Fear - More Wis saves, but with a strong AOE.
Hypnotic Pattern - Yet another Wis save. Kind of similar to Fear in many respects so both would be somewhat redundant. Probably the stronger of the two given the range and more limited allowance for effected creatures to re-save.
Enemies Abound - Now we're talking! Int save! And a potentially devastating effect if you target the right enemy. Nice range too.

Outside Choices:
Stinking Cloud - Not a bad spell, and brings another new save into play (Con), but doesn't really fit my theme if I'm being picky. Could always re-skin it for fluff though.
Dispel Magic - Useful but boring, especially since I already plan to take Counterspell with magical secrets next level. Will probably leave this to the wizard.

As you can probably tell, I'm leaning towards Hypnotic Pattern and Enemies Abound, but I would be keen to hear alternative ideas.

You can always pick a lower level spell and just upcast it.

There are a bunch of spells that will be good for you to pick that are lower level and some that you can use as an "attack" that arent normally considered like that. You can always HEX and then use your WIS save spells, cause disadvantage on WIS saves

Bane - CHA save
Arms of Hadar - STR save
Hunger of Hadar - DEX save
Dissonant Whispers - WIS (but still good)
Hex
Ray of Sickness - CON save
Levitate - CON save (pick a melee creature up and hold him there, or just move him over a cliff and drop him, he will slowly fall but at least hes gone out of the fight)
Earthengrasp - STR Save

Most of these you will need to pick up with magical secrets, but you can still get some pretty nice spells.
Im playing a whispers bard/archfey warlock for control and it is working out great, could use GOO warlock as well.

[KillingTime]

Some interesting ideas there.

For reference, his spell list is currently:

C: Dancing Lights / Friends / Minor Illusion / Vicious Mockery

1: Bane / Dissonant Whispers / Faerie Fire / Healing Word

2: Heat Metal / Hold Person / Suggestion

As you can see I'm trying to keep a spread of saves to attack, and have a pretty decent range of different abilities. But aside from Heat Metal, it's all just charm-like effects and illusions, which I'd like to keep.
I'm also probably going to drop faerie fire to free up an extra spell, since I get it as a long rest ability as a Drow anyway.

I'm interested in what people would choose for their Bard spells at 5th rather than any magical secrets picks (for which I'm pretty set on counterspell and pass without trace).

FYI
Hex doesn't allow you to affect an enemies saving throws, just ability checks (I've made the same mistake.)
I think Bane is the only spell that affects saving throws.

[EvilAnagram]

If you drop Faerie Fire, I would replace it with another first level spell.

Since your goal is to target numerous saves, Enemies Abound is fantastic for you. You're also pretty low on AoE enchantments, so either Hypnotic Pattern or Fear works. Basocally, trust your instincts. Youve got this.

[scoutsdoitbettr]

Ah yes I always make that mistake with hex. I was thinking of bane.

Paladin and cleric has some decent control spells too, command is one i can think of. Dont count out the sleep spell. It has some great uses. I try to think outside the box when it comes to battlefield control. Alot of the aoe terrain type spells (cloud of daggers, etc) work very well to control the pace of combat. Even Booming blade as a cantrip makes the enemy think twice before they move.

[EvilAnagram]

Ah yes I always make that mistake with hex. I was thinking of bane.

Paladin and cleric has some decent control spells too, command is one i can think of. Dont count out the sleep spell. It has some great uses. I try to think outside the box when it comes to battlefield control. Alot of the aoe terrain type spells (cloud of daggers, etc) work very well to control the pace of combat. Even Booming blade as a cantrip makes the enemy think twice before they move.
He isn't asking about Magical Secrets. See here:



I'm interested in what people would choose for their Bard spells at 5th rather than any magical secrets picks (for which I'm pretty set on counterspell and pass without trace).

[JellyPooga]

That clarification/ruling alone makes Jack of All Trades one of the most frequently used Bard ability!

The interesting thing about JoaT, to my mind, is that it applies to straight ability checks like those you'd call for to lift a portcullis or bust a door down (Str), hold your breath (Con) or get a "gut" feeling (Wis) and so forth; all those things not covered by a skill (in addition to those that are). It creates a weird situation where a Bard can be the go-to guy for things you wouldn't neccesarily associate with someone that's kind of just supposed to be better at skills.

[Chunkosaurus]

As a quick multiclassing note. Fighter is also absurdly good for swords bard. You get all the armor(shield proficiency is so good makes dueling better) and weapon proficiencies and an additional fighting style along with second wind. This should honestly be sky blue for swords bard. I'm currently playing a fighter1/Swords bard X and it turns you into a martial powerhouse. I have 19 AC resting(studded leather+4 dex+shield+defense fighting style)and then can flourish for +1d8 to AC. It's very hard to challenge me in melee

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'm interested in what people would choose for their Bard spells at 5th rather than any magical secrets picks (for which I'm pretty set on counterspell and pass without trace).

Synaptic Static seems like an excellent choice, while Animate Objects is always solid if a bit fiddly.

[Snivlem]

Some interesting ideas there.

For reference, his spell list is currently:

C: Dancing Lights / Friends / Minor Illusion / Vicious Mockery

1: Bane / Dissonant Whispers / Faerie Fire / Healing Word

2: Heat Metal / Hold Person / Suggestion

As you can see I'm trying to keep a spread of saves to attack, and have a pretty decent range of different abilities. But aside from Heat Metal, it's all just charm-like effects and illusions, which I'd like to keep.
I'm also probably going to drop faerie fire to free up an extra spell, since I get it as a long rest ability as a Drow anyway.

I'm interested in what people would choose for their Bard spells at 5th rather than any magical secrets picks (for which I'm pretty set on counterspell and pass without trace).

FYI
Hex doesn't allow you to affect an enemies saving throws, just ability checks (I've made the same mistake.)
I think Bane is the only spell that affects saving throws.

I'd grab hypnotic pattern (it's so good) and then change either suggestion or hold person for blindness/deafness to thin out the widom-saves (and concentration spells) a bit.

[werescythe]

What are some spell/feat suggestions for a player who is playing a Glamour Bard?

EDIT:

Also what are your opinions on Evard's Black Tentacles when it comes to Magical Secrets?

[EvilAnagram]

What are some spell/feat suggestions for a player who is playing a Glamour Bard?

EDIT:

Also what are your opinions on Evard's Black Tentacles when it comes to Magical Secrets?
E's tents is a very fun spell.

As for a glamour bard... I would make the same recommendations I do in the guide? Are you going for anything in particular?

[werescythe]

E's tents is a very fun spell.

As for a glamour bard... I would make the same recommendations I do in the guide? Are you going for anything in particular?

Well, one of the issues I have been having is that I have a lot of good spells that are all concentration, so it might be nice if I had some spells that I could use either to control the battlefield or manipulate NPCs that didn't necessarily use concentration (especially since a few of the abilities I already have as a level 7 glamour bard rely on concentration themselves).

Does the Warcaster Feat affect the Glamour Bard's abilities?

[EvilAnagram]

Well, one of the issues I have been having is that I have a lot of good spells that are all concentration, so it might be nice if I had some spells that I could use either to control the battlefield or manipulate NPCs that didn't necessarily use concentration (especially since a few of the abilities I already have as a level 7 glamour bard rely on concentration themselves).

Does the Warcaster Feat affect the Glamour Bard's abilities?
Well, I've got some bad news. Most of the Bard list ous concentration.

That said, Healing Word, Thunderwave, Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door

And if you want to move away from concentration, maybe stay away from Evard's Black Tentacles. Counterspell is good

[KillingTime]

Well, I've got some bad news. Most of the Bard list ous concentration.


This is quite an issue I've come across while trying to find a good balanced spread of spells.

Dissonant Whispers is an amazing spell - decent damage and very useful battlefield control at 1st Level.
Probably my go-to non-concentration spell... and particularly evil on an enemy you've softened up already with Bane.

[Snivlem]

Well, I've got some bad news. Most of the Bard list ous concentration.

That said, Healing Word, Thunderwave, Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door

And if you want to move away from concentration, maybe stay away from Evard's Black Tentacles. Counterspell is good

Dissonant whisper and also blindness/deafness are good non-concentration spells.

[PopeLinus1]

Hey, Idea? Maybe do another thread that has all of the feats, and then rank which classes are best for it?

[EvilAnagram]

Hey, Idea? Maybe do another thread that has all of the feats, and then rank which classes are best for it?
I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not sure if there will be much value added to the community. I don't think many people select classes based on the feats they want.

[PopeLinus1]

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not sure if there will be much value added to the community. I don't think many people select classes based on the feats they want.

Well, yeah, probably, I just thought it would be cool to see which feats work for what classes, or if some feats don’t work for anybody.

[lt_murgen]

Well, one of the issues I have been having is that I have a lot of good spells that are all concentration,


Well, I've got some bad news. Most of the Bard list ous concentration.

That said, Healing Word, Thunderwave, Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door

And if you want to move away from concentration, maybe stay away from Evard's Black Tentacles. Counterspell is good


Dissonant whisper and also blindness/deafness are good non-concentration spells.


When my Lore Bard got the Magical Secrets bump, I tried to address that very issue. Being able to pick from any list is a boon. So I grabbed up Eldritch blast and Counterspell. Since Eldritch is a cantrip, it levels with me, so being able to reliably do 2D10 Force against high wisdom opponents (who shrug off Cutting Words) is useful. And Counterspell is a reaction, allowing more battlefield control.

[FabulousFizban]

three things:

1st) Bane should be blue. It is important to consider synergy. Cast bane, whoever fails the save is now the subject of your vicious mockery, taking a 1d4 penalty to their save against it for 1d4 damage and disadvantage. Of course, it really comes down to what you need to do: need to hit the enemy? faerie fire, need the enemy not to hit you? bane. More importantly, as a debuffer, you need the ability to target multiple saves - FF is Dex, Bane is Cha. Up your game with silent image (int) and heat metal (con). then get a spell for wisdom (charm person/suggestion/viscous mockery) and find a way to hit strength (magic initiate entangle) and you'll always have the right spell for any enemy. (Also, monsters suck at charisma saves so Bane usually hits multiple targets). Bane+viscious mockery+cutting words = never get hit

2nd) Healer is blue if your party doesn't have a cleric. 1d6+4+CL healing for 1GP per heal? yes please. Honestly, it's worth picking up regardless, as stabilizing with 1 HP will pop party members back into the fight, then the Paladin can lay hands on herself, or the fighter can 2nd wind, or the barbarian can give zero ****s, and get right back into it. Out of combat, which is when you should be healing anyway, combine it with song of rest and let the cleric cry himself to sleep.

3rd) Ritual Caster is always sky blue. It dramatically increases your out of combat utility. Yes Bards get rituals, but you don't want to waste known spells (and thus combat ability) picking them. Moreover, Ritual Caster lets you choose what spell list you want for your rituals. Always choose wizard as it has the largest ritual list. It doesn't matter if your int sucks, these aren't save spells. Start hunting in every town for scrolls and harassing every wizard you come across to look at her spell-book; now look at what you can add to your spellcasting all without burning slots.

Alarm (1st)
Animal Messenger (2nd)
Augury (2nd)
Beast Sense (2nd)
Commune (5th)
Commune with Nature (5th)
Comprehend Languages (1st)
Contact Other Plane (5th)
Detect Magic (1st)
Detect Poison and Disease (1st)
Divination (4th)
Drawmij's Instant Summons (6th)
Feign Death (3rd)
Find Familiar (1st)
Forbiddance (6th)
Gentle Repose (2nd)
Identify (1st)
Leomund's Tiny Hut (3rd)
Locate Animals or Plants (2nd)
Magic Mouth (2nd)
Meld Into Stone (3rd)
Phantom Steed (3rd)
Purify Food and Drink (1st)
Rary's Telepathic Bond (5th)
Silence (2nd)
Speak with Animals (1st)
Tenser's Floating Disk (1st)
Unseen Servant (1st)
Water Breathing (3rd)
Water Walk (3rd)

4th) Lore Bard: You are taking Counter-spell and Conjure Animals at 6th. Yes, you are.

Be a variant human, by fourth level you will have healer and ritual caster. which you take first just depends on whether you have a cleric. If not, take healer first so your party don't die. If the cleric has got you and the party really doesn't need more healing, take magic initiate for more cantrips and an extra spell. entangle anyone?

[EvilAnagram]

Bane should be blue.
Generally, I don't think a concentration spell that can only disable a single enemy is worth it. This spell simply gives you the opportunity to disable a single enemy, which seems even less worth it. If you work out a combo with another caster to keep Hold Person or another nasty disabling spell, it can be amazing. However, that's not usually going to happen, so I'm less impressed with this spell.


Healer is blue if your party doesn't have a cleric.
In combat, Bards have access to healing spells. Out of combat, bards have access to Song of Rest. If your character is literally the only one in the party with access to healing abilities, or if your party doesn't stop for short rests enough, this would be worth taking. Otherwise, I would definitely opt not to take it, especially since its usefulness declines as potions become more available. It's useful, but it's rarely going to be important, unless party makeup demands it.


Ritual Caster is always sky blue.
First, while I appreciate your zeal, I do not take a prescriptive tone in any of my ratings. Ritual caster provides access to three situationally useful spells with the opportunity to maybe get more. That's fun, but there's rarely going to be a moment when this makes or breaks the game for characters. Occasionally, it will make a character's life easier. Identify alone might be worth the feat, but if someone wants something that will directly increase their combat potential, this won't do it.


Lore Bard: You are taking Counter-spell and Conjure Animals at 6th. Yes, you are.
Your choices aren't necessarily the choices other people will want to make.


Be a variant human, by fourth level you will have healer and ritual caster. which you take first just depends on whether you have a cleric. If not, take healer first so your party don't die. If the cleric has got you and the party really doesn't need more healing, take magic initiate for more cantrips and an extra spell. entangle anyone?
That's fun. I hope you enjoy that build if you play it. That said, there's no reason anyone should feel remotely pressured to play that build.

[Crgaston]

Generally, I don't think a concentration spell that can only disable a single enemy is worth it. This spell simply gives you the opportunity to disable a single enemy, which seems even less worth it. If you work out a combo with another caster to keep Hold Person or another nasty disabling spell, it can be amazing. However, that's not usually going to happen, so I'm less impressed with this spell.

Actually, Bane targets 3 enemies with a 1st level slot plus one enemy per upcast slot. So it’s actually pretty good, especially considering the Cha save.

[EvilAnagram]

Actually, Bane targets 3 enemies with a 1st level slot plus one enemy per upcast slot. So it’s actually pretty good, especially considering the Cha save.

Well, that changes things considerably. Egg, meet face and all.

[sophontteks]

I'm not sure if any of this would change what you have in the guide, but I thought I'd mention a cool trick with enthralling performance.

Its a niche skill because you have to perform for a minute, and they have to watch the performance. The result, however, is stupid strong. Its a souped-up undetectable charm person that effects up to 5 people. So, we just have to get around the setup to make this really good.

Well, how about using suggestion? "you want to gather your friends and watch me perform at location."

For the low cost of a level 2 spell you just turned several NPCs into utterly adoring fans who will brag about you and create even more fans, and try to foil any plots against you they may know of.

Since this is far and away better then being a 'friendly acquaintance' we can expect much better results from following persuasion checks too. The ability in and of itself won't make you allies, but that persuasion check with advantage afterwards surely could.

The ability deserves to be tricky to set up, because the effect is just so good.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm not sure if any of this would change what you have in the guide, but I thought I'd mention a cool trick with enthralling performance.

Its a niche skill because you have to perform for a minute, and they have to watch the performance. The result, however, is stupid strong. Its a souped-up undetectable charm person that effects up to 5 people. So, we just have to get around the setup to make this really good.

Well, how about using suggestion? "you want to gather your friends and watch me perform at location."

For the low cost of a level 2 spell you just turned several NPCs into utterly adoring fans who will brag about you and create even more fans, and try to foil any plots against you they may know of.

Since this is far and away better then being a 'friendly acquaintance' we can expect much better results from following persuasion checks too. The ability in and of itself won't make you allies, but that persuasion check with advantage afterwards surely could.

The ability deserves to be tricky to set up, because the effect is just so good.

Yeah, that fits my definition of situational. It's powerful, but its power is limited both in the capacity to carry it out and its applicability. Purple isn't bad, but rather limited.

[Miracle_Matter]

I really would like to thank you for the guide you made for the bard, it helped me so much!

My bard, Fimble Reed the Skilled Bard and Fabled Adventurer of the Sword Coast (self-made title), took one level in warlock (pact of the hexblade) and is three levels in bard (college of swords). I really like the amazing synergy between these two classes. Shield and defensive flourish really help the ability to survive for this character. When there is a gigantic baddie, Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Hexblade's Curse work incredibly well. In my opinion, this is the best multiclass for the bard to take, and is just bellow Paladin/Sorcerer multi-class. Faerie Fire is great as always, and of course I have Healing Word. Protection from Evil and Good is a nice protection spell just in case something happens. The only level two spell I have is Silence. All other spells I have are utility, and same with most of my cantrips (Light, Friends, Minor Illusion, Vicious Mockery, and Toll of the Dead for ranged damage if really really needed). My character's race is a variant human with the war caster feat. For the mechanical aspect, this is a bard that lays down a good debuff while waiting for the others to engage in combat in order to minimize being attacked, and then going in melee combat to assist a player that is in the deepest trouble.

The role play aspect of this character is really fun as well. My character has an 8 in intelligence. I use this as my flaw by making it so that he forgets anything he doesn't write down in his notebook (it's also cool because if he writes something down while changing the story to make it look like he is always the hero, he actually believes that he did it later on in the story, which he obviously does 100% of the time). He is the incredibly self-centered brat, and acts like the annoying noble that can't live on in life unless he takes a bath twice a day. The reason he keeps going with an adventuring life is because he's addicted to ancient texts (how he found a connection to his patron), so of course he meets dangerous things in dangerous places. This is why he made sure he learned how to use a blade. Also, whenever he gets the finishing blow on the enemy, Fimble taps in to his inner hexblade warlock and becomes an EDGELORD OF ULTIMATE DESTRUCTION!!!

One note on the hexblade bardlock. Since hexblades use charisma instead of dex or strength, you need minimal investment into dex stat, making it so that a variant human can be played while using the base 15,14,13,12,10,8 sats. For the final product, you have +3 Cha, +2 Dex and Con, +1 Wis, +0 Str, and my lovely -1 Int. Initiative is not a problem with +2 dex due to Jack of All Trades. With a shield, breastplate with +2 dex mod, shield(the spell from hexblade spell list) and defensive flourish, you can get a maximum AC of 29 AT LEVEL 4 (minimum AC being 24). Not only that, but with one attack, while hexblade's curse is active and having the dueling martial archetype and using a flourish, you get a maximum of 21 damage on one target without a crit (minimum of 9). All of these things can be done ON ONE ROUND OF COMBAT. Not done yet, because if all spell slots are open, you can use the pact magic slot for shield so that you regenerate everything except Bardic Inspiration on a short rest (and that fixes itself later). Pretty OP, especially because in Tomb of Annihilation, there is a lot of traveling (Rests!!!).


Could you please tell me if there are anythings that could make this character better or flaws mechanically that this character has? Thanks!


P.S. I don't believe you edited the part of Jack of All Trades so that it also mentions that it applies to initiative as well.

P.P.S. If you crit and use a flourish, I believe that you use only one of the dice that you point out before rolling. Correct me if I am wrong.

[EvilAnagram]

Could you please tell me if there are anythings that could make this character better or flaws mechanically that this character has? Thanks!
Thanks for all the kind words! Honestly, your build looks pretty tight. Enjoy!


P.S. I don't believe you edited the part of Jack of All Trades so that it also mentions that it applies to initiative as well.
Good catch! It's fixed.


P.P.S. If you crit and use a flourish, I believe that you use only one of the dice that you point out before rolling. Correct me if I am wrong.
You get to roll two damage dice for the flourish, but you only use one die as a resource.

[Zarohk]

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide has some great tiefling variants. First up is Devil's Tongue which gives you Vicious Mockery for the cantrip and Charm Person & Enthrall as the higher-level spells instead of the more demonic damage spells. Second is the Winged Tielfing instead of extra spells, which is of varying use (YMMV). Lastly, the alternative appearance for tielfing provides some fun options for bards, such as looking like a normal human with small horns, fangs, or catlike eyes, and, most usefully, not casting a shadow or reflection.

[Torsin]

-----------------

I think you might want to take a look at what the new book Mordenkainen's Tomb of Foes brings to the table for bards. Specifically I am talking about the Elf Subrace Eladrin or Fey Elves. That get everything the base elf gets with +1 Charisma, and the Fey step ability which is a nice 30 ft teleport that use can use after every rest, and not only that but at 3rd level you get additional affects depending on the season you chose for your Fey Elf, which you may change endlessly after a long rest, Autumn lets you charm two enemies, Winter lets you fear an enemy, Spring lets you teleport an ally you touch instead, and Summer lets you burn an enemy you teleport near. All in All I think this makes at least this Sub Race of Elf a very viable option for a bard.

[The Aboleth]

Apologies if this was asked earlier in the thread:

Using the Magical Secrets feature, can a Bard choose cantrips? Or must they choose a spell that is 1st level or higher? Was thinking of taking Eldritch Blast using the Magical Secrets feature from the Lore Bard college to give my character a good damage-dealing cantrip (I have Vicious Mockery, but I keep hearing how EB is the most powerful damage cantrip in the game, so I wanted to consider it).

For what it's worth, the character will be starting at Level 8. I took Lightning Bolt as the other Magical Secret spell, and am now deciding between Counterspell or EB (again, if taking a cantrip is allowed). I'm also open to other suggestions on what Magical Secrets spells I should take.

[EvilAnagram]

Apologies if this was asked earlier in the thread:

Using the Magical Secrets feature, can a Bard choose cantrips? Or must they choose a spell that is 1st level or higher? Was thinking of taking Eldritch Blast using the Magical Secrets feature from the Lore Bard college to give my character a good damage-dealing cantrip (I have Vicious Mockery, but I keep hearing how EB is the most powerful damage cantrip in the game, so I wanted to consider it).

For what it's worth, the character will be starting at Level 8. I took Lightning Bolt as the other Magical Secret spell, and am now deciding between Counterspell or EB (again, if taking a cantrip is allowed). I'm also open to other suggestions on what Magical Secrets spells I should take.

You can take a cantrip, but I'm not sure Eldritch Blast will be worthwhile. Part of what makes it such a good cantrip is that Warlock Invocations provide it with boosts such as increased damage and pushing. Those aren't going to be available without multiclassing, and if you multiclass you can grab it as a cantrip without using your Magical Secrets.

[The Aboleth]

You can take a cantrip, but I'm not sure Eldritch Blast will be worthwhile. Part of what makes it such a good cantrip is that Warlock Invocations provide it with boosts such as increased damage and pushing. Those aren't going to be available without multiclassing, and if you multiclass you can grab it as a cantrip without using your Magical Secrets.

Got it. So if you were in my shoes, you would stick with Lightning Bolt and Counterspell for the two Magical Secrets spells (again, the character will be starting at Level 8)?

[Merudo]

How does the Drow Half-Elf Variant fares up against the plain Half-Elf?

Half-Elf Drow gets 2 less skills, but get Drow magic (Dancing Lights cantrip, free Faerie Fire & Darkness 1/day.

Note that the Half-Elf Drow does not suffer from any sunlight sensitivity.

The Half-Elf Lore Bard is already drowning in skills (10 skill proficiencies at level 3), plus with Jack of All Trades, you already get half the benefits of full proficiency anyway. Seems like trading 2 skills for some free spells is a decent deal, especially early on when the spell slots are very valuable and proficiency is just a +1/+2 bonus anyway.

[EvilAnagram]

Got it. So if you were in my shoes, you would stick with Lightning Bolt and Counterspell for the two Magical Secrets spells (again, the character will be starting at Level 8)?

Yeah, those sound like solid picks.


How does the Drow Half-Elf Variant fares up against the plain Half-Elf?

Seems like trading 2 skills for some free spells is a decent deal, especially early on when the spell slots are very valuable and proficiency is just a +1/+2 bonus anyway.

That sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

[Erk'd]

So in my next game I was thinking of playing a dragonborn strength valor bard so I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips for it. Thanks.