One handed spear?

[TheCrowing1432]

Why is there no one handed spear in DND?

In a lot of medievil fantasy, a spear in one hand and a shield in another, is iconic.

Theres 300, Lord of the Rings, etc. All have spear and shield users. Is there a one handed spear without using suboptimal choices like monkeys grip or strongarm bracers?

[AmberVael]

The shortspear? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shortspear)
Its in the PHB. One handed melee weapon. Its even Simple, so basically everyone can use it.

[Sian]

Kusari-Gama (DMG) could probably be refluffed into a phalanx spear

[Psyren]

The shortspear? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shortspear)
Its in the PHB. One handed melee weapon. Its even Simple, so basically everyone can use it.

^ This, and Trident is also 1H.

PF adds a couple of eastern options as well like the Sibat and Siangham.

[Ashtagon]

Kusari-Gama (DMG) could probably be refluffed into a phalanx spear

I'm confused. How do you refluff a weapons-grade chain attached to a sickle into a spear?

[Saintheart]

The harpoon from Stormwrack can be refluffed to a hunting spear. Does some ugly things to a target you hit with it.

[Shoat]

As people have said, just use a shortspear or trident (depending on available proficiencies), as they're basically exactly what one'd use to get that iconic feeling you're describing (Your problem seems to be that THE 'spear' spear isn't one-handed).

[Mystral]

As people have said, just use a shortspear or trident (depending on available proficiencies), as they're basically exactly what one'd use to get that iconic feeling you're describing (Your problem seems to be that THE 'spear' spear isn't one-handed).

The main problem is that one of the staples of formations is a long spear, that gives you reach, coupled with a shield. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixm6sXe1TYE

As you can see, it works quite well, and these are obviously not shortspears.

[nyjastul69]

D&D isn't a historical reenactment or a simulation game. It's an abstract game played for fun. I don't see a problem.

[Ashtagon]

The main problem is that one of the staples of formations is a long spear, that gives you reach, coupled with a shield. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixm6sXe1TYE

As you can see, it works quite well, and these are obviously not shortspears.

If you feel that strongly I would seriously consider refluffing the shortspear as a slightly longer spear, say, about the length of the ones in that video.

However, based on the 3.5e PHB illustrations, and assuming one grid square is one foot, the shortspear is 5.5 feet long, and the longspear is supposed to be 11 feet long. The standard vanilla spear is not illustrated, but presumably a typical example is midway between those two (ie 8.25 feet). The spears those guys in the video are holding are certainly at least 6 feet, but look to be closer to the shortspear length than to the standard spear length.

Conclusion: video dudes are using shortspears.

[Psyren]

Give your phalanx dudes the Lunge feat or something, problem solved.

[Ashtagon]

fwiw, I would redo the spear weapons as follows:

Spear (was 3.0e halfspear; was 3.5e shortspear)

Simple one-handed melee weapon, 1 gp, 1d6, crit ×2, range inc. 20 feet, 3 lb, piercing

This covers spear-type weapons ranging from 5-7 feet in length; the prototypical example is 5.5 feet long. The above statblock is identical to the 3.5e shortspear.

Long Spear (was 3.x spear)

Simple two-handed melee weapon, 2 gp, 1d8, crit ×3, range inc. 20 feet, 6 lb, piercing

This covers spear-type weapons ranging from 7-10 feet in length; the prototypical example is 8.25 feet long. The above statblock is identical to the 3.5e spear.

New rule: If a character has Strength 13 and BAB +1 or greater, he can choose to either wield the weapon one-handed, or to wield it with an effective reach of ten feet. If wielding the weapon two-handed, it is a free action to change between standard reach and long reach, which can be done once per turn during the character's turn.

(Aside: In my games, I make the "versatile" weapons (bastard sword, dwarven war axe, and similar) martial weapons by default. Rather than requiring an EWP to allow their use one-handed, I grant that ability to anyone with Str 13 and BAB +1 or better.)

Pike (was 3.x longspear)

Simple two-handed melee weapon, 5 gp, 1d10, crit ×3, 9 lb, piercing

This covers spear-type weapons ranging from 10-14 feet in length; the prototypical example is 11 feet long. The above statblock is identical to the 3.5e longspear, except that the damage has been increased from 1d8 to 1d10.

[Morcleon]

I'm confused. How do you refluff a weapons-grade chain attached to a sickle into a spear?

By just using the stats and ignoring the written fluff.

[Ashtagon]

By just using the stats and ignoring the written fluff.

Including the bits about being able to function simultaneously as a reach weapon and close-combat weapon, being able to trip, advantages in disarming, and able to substitute Dexterity for Strength as if a Finesse weapon? I'm pretty sure the other spear weapons would be instantly outclassed in every way except damage at that point, and being honest, the difference between a d6 and d8 for damage rolls is trivial. It also seems somewhat peculiar that the standard spear would now be an exotic weapon while the short and long spears remain simple weapons.

Really, the stats for the kusari-gama make even the spiked chain look like weaksauce, and pretty much everyone agrees that's OP as far as EWPs go.

[Morcleon]

Including the bits about being able to function simultaneously as a reach weapon and close-combat weapon, being able to trip, advantages in disarming, and able to substitute Dexterity for Strength as if a Finesse weapon? I'm pretty sure the other spear weapons would be instantly outclassed in every way except damage at that point, and being honest, the difference between a d6 and d8 for damage rolls is trivial. It also seems somewhat peculiar that the standard spear would now be an exotic weapon while the short and long spears remain simple weapons.

Really, the stats for the kusari-gama make even the spiked chain look like weaksauce, and pretty much everyone agrees that's OP as far as EWPs go.

Yep. It would be a different weapon from the normal spear. I generally let people refluff weapons into whatever they want within reason (sword as a magically enhanced icicle yes, sword as a ferret with bared teeth no).

Also, it's more that spiked chain is what EWPs should look like, rather than that it's overpowered. It's one of the very few EWPs worth taking the feat for.

[Dienekes]

Including the bits about being able to function simultaneously as a reach weapon and close-combat weapon, being able to trip, advantages in disarming, and able to substitute Dexterity for Strength as if a Finesse weapon? I'm pretty sure the other spear weapons would be instantly outclassed in every way except damage at that point, and being honest, the difference between a d6 and d8 for damage rolls is trivial. It also seems somewhat peculiar that the standard spear would now be an exotic weapon while the short and long spears remain simple weapons.

Honestly, all this stuff just sounds like they're using a bill. Reach and close attacks are pretty basic things to do with a normal spear, it has a hook to trip and disarm. Yeah, I could see that being a reasonable representation of what a bill was designed to do.

That it sounds overpowered compared to what other spears are capable of says more about the other spears to me. But then D&D is absolutely nonsense when it deals with equipment anyway, so that's not surprising.

[Ashtagon]

It sounds a bit like you guys are looking to make a wholesale reworking of the D&D melee weapons, rather that create a spear type weapon that slots in to the power scales of the existing weapons. That's a cool project, but I suspect it's beyond the scope of the OP, who only wanted a single weapon, not a game redesign.

[Dienekes]

It sounds a bit like you guys are looking to make a wholesale reworking of the D&D melee weapons, rather that create a spear type weapon that slots in to the power scales of the existing weapons. That's a cool project, but I suspect it's beyond the scope of the OP, who only wanted a single weapon, not a game redesign.

That's fair.

As to OP. My games have this feat.

I know how a spear works, dammit.
Prerequisite: Proficient in simple and martial weapons, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: You can use a longspear in one hand, in addition you can attack adjacent enemies with a reach weapon.

Which pretty much solves the problems I have with spears, and opens up more weapons than spiked chain for control builds, which I like because I think the spiked chain is a bit of a silly weapon.

If you're not a fan of homebrew, yeah, the shortspear is all you get.

[Mystral]

It sounds a bit like you guys are looking to make a wholesale reworking of the D&D melee weapons, rather that create a spear type weapon that slots in to the power scales of the existing weapons. That's a cool project, but I suspect it's beyond the scope of the OP, who only wanted a single weapon, not a game redesign.

Well, that would be easy.

One-Handed Melee Weapon: Infantryspear
1d8 Damage, Crit x3, Reach 10. Cost 10 Gold.

[Jay R]

The main problem is that one of the staples of formations is a long spear, that gives you reach, coupled with a shield. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixm6sXe1TYE

As you can see, it works quite well, and these are obviously not shortspears.

Those are shortspears. The 3.5 PHB describes a shortspear as follows: "A shortspear is small enough to wield one-handed. It may also be thrown." That's all. You see those spears being wielded one-handed; they are shortspears.

In both mechanics and fluff, the D&D shortspear is exactly the weapon the OP wants - a spear that can be used one-handed with a shield.

[TheCrowing1432]

I actually didnt know the Shortspear existed pre this thread.

The only spears I knew of where the two handed spear, and the trident.

[Mystral]

Those are shortspears. The 3.5 PHB describes a shortspear as follows: "A shortspear is small enough to wield one-handed. It may also be thrown." That's all. You see those spears being wielded one-handed; they are shortspears.

In both mechanics and fluff, the D&D shortspear is exactly the weapon the OP wants - a spear that can be used one-handed with a shield.

The weapons in that video are also able to strike with reach.

[Grytorm]

Maybe instead of having new rules with BaB and strength make it work like the Bastard Sword. You can wield Long Spears one handed if you have Martial Weapon Proficiency with it.

[ericgrau]

By RAW I believe a medium creature gets reach with a longspear made for a small creature and you may wield it in one hand. Only drawback is the -2 to hit.

Buuuut... the FAQ says nope to that idea.

Anyway here's a homebrew 1 handed longspear:
1 handed martial weapon
7 gp, 1d4 dmg (S), 1d6 dmg (M), crit x3, 7 lbs, piercing. Have a nice day.
Special: the butt spike may attack a prone foe within the wielder's normal reach (5' for a medium creature) at a -4 to hit. It may likewise be used to coup de grace a prone foe provided the proper conditions are met to coup de grace. The damage is the same as the main tip.

[nyjastul69]

The weapons in that video are also able to strike with reach.

I didn't notice any striking with reach in the video. While a medium sized creature is assumed to occupiy a 5' block, they kinda don't. If one is at the back side of his space and the other is too, there is almost 10' between them. More likely 7' or 8'. A reach weapon allows an attack at 10' for a medium creature. The realistic distance (yes I know) would have to potentially pass10' in many situations. Again, D&D is an abstraction, not a simulation.

[Dienekes]

I didn't notice any striking with reach in the video. While a medium sized creature is assumed to occupiy a 5' block, they kinda don't. If one is at the back side of his space and the other is too, there is almost 10' between them. More likely 7' or 8'. A reach weapon allows an attack at 10' for a medium creature. The realistic distance (yes I know) would have to potentially pass10' in many situations. Again, D&D is an abstraction, not a simulation.

That spear is as long as a ranseur, guisarme, and glaive. All of which are reach weapons.

In addition, by your account of people which are somehow 0 feet thick to make sense. Which is just as ridiculous as the 5x5 interpretation.

The "realistic" view would be that your average person takes up about a foot by 2 feet by 5-6 feet, and they are always somewhere within a 5x5 square be that 5 feet away or 9 feet away, plenty of room for an 8 foot spear to hit you.

And while, yes, D&D is not a simulation it does offer the opportunity to play your usual fantasy archetypes. Not accurately, but they're there. I don't see why everything from a viking berserker to a mystic monk are all perfectly playable options, but your basic shielded longspearmen, that was the core of European armies for hundreds if not thousands of years is somehow absent.

[Story]

You can make any two handed weapon into a one handed weapon by just reducing the size.

[Mystral]

I didn't notice any striking with reach in the video. While a medium sized creature is assumed to occupiy a 5' block, they kinda don't. If one is at the back side of his space and the other is too, there is almost 10' between them. More likely 7' or 8'. A reach weapon allows an attack at 10' for a medium creature. The realistic distance (yes I know) would have to potentially pass10' in many situations. Again, D&D is an abstraction, not a simulation.

You don't understand the abstraction of reach in D&D. Reach means that someone is able to strike someone else over a longer distance than shorter range weapons, like swords, hand axes or daggers. On the other hand, once someone steps inside of that reach, you can't strike them anymore. That is an exact description of the spear usage in that video.

[Bucky]

One of the balance invariants for D&D weapons is that one-handed reach weapons are always Exotic. This was apparently decided with regards to gameplay rather than realism. But it wouldn't be out of line to homebrew a feat allowing longspears to be wielded one-handed, replacing the EWP feat tax.

[nyjastul69]

You don't understand the abstraction of reach in D&D. Reach means that someone is able to strike someone else over a longer distance than shorter range weapons, like swords, hand axes or daggers. On the other hand, once someone steps inside of that reach, you can't strike them anymore. That is an exact description of the spear usage in that video.

I thank you for your rude and insulting assumption of my understanding of reach weapons. Little reach expressed in said video. I saw very few attack that would replicate what reach is in D&D terms.

[Uhtred]

Had a player who wanted to do exactly this' and argued for ages that the "Bastard spear" should be a thing, almost exactly as described in this thread. Pathfinder has the answer in the form of the Phalanx Fighter archetype, which allows the fighter to wield a two-handed spear or polearm in one hand.

[Ashtagon]

The weapons in that video are also able to strike with reach.

They've got more reach than a regular sword, true, but I don't see any sign of them hitting anyone ten feet away. "more reach than a real life sword" doesn't mean "D&D reach".


One of the balance invariants for D&D weapons is that one-handed reach weapons are always Exotic. This was apparently decided with regards to gameplay rather than realism. But it wouldn't be out of line to homebrew a feat allowing longspears to be wielded one-handed, replacing the EWP feat tax.

I'm not sure how replacing one feat with another stops it from being a feat tax.


Maybe instead of having new rules with BaB and strength make it work like the Bastard Sword. You can wield Long Spears one handed if you have Martial Weapon Proficiency with it.

My solution is effectively "free EWP if you have high enough Str and BAB". Your solution is effectively "yet another feat tax". If that's what you like, sure, go for it.

[Ashtagon]

That spear is as long as a ranseur, guisarme, and glaive. All of which are reach weapons.

Judging by the 3.5e PHB illustrations, and again assuming one grid square is one foot on those pictures, we have the following lengths (including hilts, grips, and handles). What the D&D reach weapons all have in common is a length in excess of ten feet. Coincidentally, they hit targets ten feet away. Yes, I totally get that there are examples of these weapons with hafts of varying lengths (and GURPS models that quite well, making them actual different weapons), but it seems reasonable to suppose that the examples in those PHB illustrations are intended to be prototypical examples of the ones that are statted out in that book.

My estimate of the length of the spears in that video is about 6 1/2 feet, btw. That makes them closer to D&D shortspears than anything else.

No reach:

greatsword - 6 feet
halberd - 6 feet
orc double axe - 5 3/4 feet
quarterstaff - 6 feet
shortspear - 5 3/4 feet
spear - (not illustrated; hypothetically 8 1/4 feet as midway between shortspear and longspear)
trident - 5 3/4 feet

Reach:

glaive - 10 1/2 feet
guisarme - 10 1/4 feet
longspear - 10 3/4 feet
ranseur - 10 feet
spiked chain - 14 feet

[Jay R]

The weapons in that video are also able to strike with reach.

Depends on how far away they have to be for us to say that they strike "with reach".

The D&D system models a continuous reality with a discrete function. In fact, a one-handed spear reaches further than a sword, but not as far as a two-handed spear, and that's what the video is showing. But D&D doesn't have a range between the two.

That's a limitation of the D&D system, but doesn't change the fact that a one-handed spear is roughly 5-7 feet long, and that's what we see.

The D&D shortspear is, within the limits of the model, the weapon the OP was asking for.

[Ashtagon]

I think half the problem is in the name. I think people have difficulty in thinking of something described as "short" as being noticeably longer than the average man is tall. It's why in my reworking, I changed the names to spear/long spear/pike (from shortspear/spear/longspear).

[Optimator]

My group just uses the Trident stats and fluffs accordingly.

[Tuvarkz]

The PF Phalanx Soldier Fighter archetype allows for wielding a shield+spear/polearm from level 3 onwards. If 3pp allowed, the Path of War: Expanded Phalanx Formation Stance (Available at level 1)/Pikeman Training (Feat, requires BAB +1) do the same thing. Additionally, the Twin Thunders stance (Available at level 5) allows for the dual wielding of spear/polearms.

[Dienekes]

Judging by the 3.5e PHB illustrations, and again assuming one grid square is one foot on those pictures, we have the following lengths (including hilts, grips, and handles). What the D&D reach weapons all have in common is a length in excess of ten feet. Coincidentally, they hit targets ten feet away. Yes, I totally get that there are examples of these weapons with hafts of varying lengths (and GURPS models that quite well, making them actual different weapons), but it seems reasonable to suppose that the examples in those PHB illustrations are intended to be prototypical examples of the ones that are statted out in that book.

My estimate of the length of the spears in that video is about 6 1/2 feet, btw. That makes them closer to D&D shortspears than anything else.

No reach:

greatsword - 6 feet
halberd - 6 feet
orc double axe - 5 3/4 feet
quarterstaff - 6 feet
shortspear - 5 3/4 feet
spear - (not illustrated; hypothetically 8 1/4 feet as midway between shortspear and longspear)
trident - 5 3/4 feet

Reach:

glaive - 10 1/2 feet
guisarme - 10 1/4 feet
longspear - 10 3/4 feet
ranseur - 10 feet
spiked chain - 14 feet

That's nice, but there were still spears that were 8 feet and used in 1 hand (the dory for instance). Assuming an average thickness of 1 foot a person, with both opponents standing at the furthest edges of their squares, and ignoring that arms extend. The furthest distance a spear would have to go to reach the opponent is 8 feet. Much less if we assume they're standing in the middle of their squares.

That's my point, the most casual glances through history tells us it's possible to use a spear with reach with one hand and a shield. I think it is a weakness that D&D cannot accomodate that fantasy when it bends over backwards to make every type of spell you'd see in a fantasy and many that I've never heard of make it in.

What's even stranger is the argument against it, to be honest. Giving a one-handed reach weapon isn't overpowered. Actually, because wielding a weapon two-handed is so much more powerful it's kind of a nerf. Which is why my feat makes it attack adjacent foes as well, as that's just what the spiked chain does, and that's generally considered one of the few exotic weapons that are actually worth the feat to get it.

So yeah, getting a spiked chain that's a little weaker in damage, but lets you use a shield. And let's you actually be the character you want to be. Sounds fun.

[Ashtagon]

That's nice, but there were still spears that were 8 feet and used in 1 hand (the dory for instance). Assuming an average thickness of 1 foot a person, with both opponents standing at the furthest edges of their squares, and ignoring that arms extend. The furthest distance a spear would have to go to reach the opponent is 8 feet. Much less if we assume they're standing in the middle of their squares.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192605-Long-spears-and-shields

I actually wrote about that exact spear many years ago. The fact is, it's not that there was something unusual about the dory. It was indeed too bulky to effectively wield in one hand. And in fact they didn't. They did wield it two handed (although yes, they would often carry it one-handed for marches and other purposes). And used a shield in addition. How? The shield had a long strap that would go across their shoulders and one arm. The arm would hold the shield in place via the strap, while the off-hand (and the primary hand) would both be holding the spear. Brother Oni's reply (#8 in that thread) has more details and corrections on how it was secured.

tl;dr: If you want to wield a longer spear with a shield, get a better shield.

[Dienekes]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192605-Long-spears-and-shields

I actually wrote about that exact spear many years ago. The fact is, it's not that there was something unusual about the dory. It was indeed too bulky to effectively wield in one hand. And in fact they didn't. They did wield it two handed (although yes, they would often carry it one-handed for marches and other purposes). And used a shield in addition. How? The shield had a long strap that would go across their shoulders and one arm. The arm would hold the shield in place via the strap, while the off-hand (and the primary hand) would both be holding the spear. Brother Oni's reply (#8 in that thread) has more details and corrections on how it was secured.

tl;dr: If you want to wield a longer spear with a shield, get a better shield.

Why are you linking me a thread where you talk exclusively about the sarissa? Not the dory. In fact the second post in that link describes that the dory and the hoplon (incorrect term actually, it was an aspis).

I for one am not talking about the 15 foot long sarissa. I'm talking about the 8 foot long dory, which should be a reach weapon, as that is as long as a glaive, a guisarme, and a ranceur.

Also the sarissa and pike should be a 2 reach weapon (or more, some of those bastards went up to 23 feet, damn) that have a few rules about how they're terribly clumsy if used for anything other than a single charge or setting against a charge.

And hell, your second post in that thread mentions that a longspear could be turned into a bastard sword like verstile weapon, which is what I've been saying here.

[Ashtagon]

Why are you linking me a thread where you talk exclusively about the sarissa? Not the dory. In fact the second post in that link describes that the dory and the hoplon (incorrect term actually, it was an aspis).

I for one am not talking about the 15 foot long sarissa. I'm talking about the 8 foot long dory, which should be a reach weapon, as that is as long as a glaive, a guisarme, and a ranceur.

Also the sarissa and pike should be a 2 reach weapon (or more, some of those bastards went up to 23 feet, damn) that have a few rules about how they're terribly clumsy if used for anything other than a single charge or setting against a charge.

And hell, your second post in that thread mentions that a longspear could be turned into a bastard sword like verstile weapon, which is what I've been saying here.

Whether sarissa or dory, the same issue applies: the thing that enabled effective use of the spear-type weapon with a shield was the fact that the shield had a shoulder strap to allow it to be controlled without requiring the hand to be devoted to controlling the shield.

And the 8-foot dory is a couple of feet shorter than the 10-foot-plus weapons described in the PHB that have reach. Yes, shorter versions of the glaive et alii existed; however, the PHB did not stat them up.

I'd quite agree that 15-foot-plus pole weapons should be double reach weapons. Although really, once you get weapons of that length, the bulkiness of the weapon means that the normal 3.x conceit of treating your threatened area as a circle no longer really reflects the reality of wielding the weapon.

[Dienekes]

Whether sarissa or dory, the same issue applies: the thing that enabled effective use of the spear-type weapon with a shield was the fact that the shield had a shoulder strap to allow it to be controlled without requiring the hand to be devoted to controlling the shield.

And the 8-foot dory is a couple of feet shorter than the 10-foot-plus weapons described in the PHB that have reach. Yes, shorter versions of the glaive et alii existed; however, the PHB did not stat them up.

I'd quite agree that 15-foot-plus pole weapons should be double reach weapons. Although really, once you get weapons of that length, the bulkiness of the weapon means that the normal 3.x conceit of treating your threatened area as a circle no longer really reflects the reality of wielding the weapon.

The average ranseur was 7-9 feet. The average glaive was 7-8 feet. The average dory was 7-8 feet.

You can wield them 1 handed without a shield. Hell, the current thought is that the spear was held underhand often beneath or to the side of the aspis. The aspis shield was strapped to your forearm, true, but it did not allow your hand to reach out from beneath it to grab the spear.

In addition, viking shields most definitely did not have an arm strap to allow them to hold a spear in the way you described, and their spears were also, rather unsurprisingly, about 7-9 feet long, and were used with a shield.

[Ashtagon]

I can well believe the average ranseur etc. was 7-9 feet. However, the PHB versions were a little over ten feet long.

[Dienekes]

I can well believe the average ranseur etc. was 7-9 feet. However, the PHB versions were a little over ten feet long.

Good, they should both be reach weapons then.

[Ashtagon]

Good, they should both be reach weapons then.

The 7-9 foot ranseur is not actually defined in D&D. Whether it has reach or not is immaterial.

Also, I think this thread has reached the point where further participation is unproductive. Peace out.