Why do prestige classes consist of only 5 levels?

[Takewo]

I know that officially there are no prestige classes, and there will never be (haha, I'm laughing at the joke). So I assume that there is nothing among the published or hinted material that would point to a five-level prestige class.

If it is that so, why does everyone who undertake the task of creating a prestige class for D&D 5 Ed. seem to follow a standard of a five-level class?

[Steampunkette]

10 levels is too much divergence from your base class, and requires 7 to 10 abilities.

3 levels is too short to encapsulate the fullness of the concept, and represents a minimal investment on the player's part. It is also rife for splash abuse.

5 levels splits the difference fairly well, requiring investment but not demanding full divergence.

[PoeticDwarf]

I know that officially there are no prestige classes, and there will never be (haha, I'm laughing at the joke). So I assume that there is nothing among the published or hinted material that would point to a five-level prestige class.

If it is that so, why does everyone who undertake the task of creating a prestige class for D&D 5 Ed. seem to follow a standard of a five-level class?

You make your point with 5 levels, but I don't know. For me sounds 9 levels way better.

[MrStabby]

Personally I wouldn't mind three levels. I think three can be packed with enough stuff tailored for multiclassing and compensating for loss of high level abilities in the class you would be missing.

That said, I wouldn't mind it if you were limited to one prestige class in this edition.

[MadGrady]

You make your point with 5 levels, but I don't know. For me sounds 9 levels way better.

If a concept requires 9 levels to be fleshed out (imho), then it should be an entire class on its own, not a prestige class.

[Shining Wrath]

3.5 tradition was that prestige classes usually ran for 5 or 10 levels (usually - some 7's and so on).

I'm thinking that because of the ASL schedule a 4 or 8 level prestige class makes some sense.

[Draz74]

Personally I don't see the need for prestige classes in 5e at all. IMO, the same goals can be accomplished just through homebrew feats.

[JNAProductions]

Why? Because I like 5 levels. And, outside of maybe three prestige classes, I make all the prestige classes.

[MrStabby]

Personally I don't see the need for prestige classes in 5e at all. IMO, the same goals can be accomplished just through homebrew feats.

Hmm. I tend to avoid custom feats because I find those abilities can be represented better by prestige classes.

[Joe the Rat]

3.5 tradition was that prestige classes usually ran for 5 or 10 levels (usually - some 7's and so on).

I'm thinking that because of the ASL schedule a 4 or 8 level prestige class makes some sense.

I was thinking the same thing re: ASI's, but I could also see an argument that prestige classes should represent an opportunity cost: Completing the class may throw off your ASI sequence. This becomes a choice for the player - is it worth taking this 3-level progression, and losing an ASI? Should I take the 5th level capstone, and defer my last ASI all the way to 20 (if at all)? Should I go in as early as I can qualify, or wait a level for the ASI first? If the class is really a Prestige thing, and not just "a slightly different progression of features with extra qualifiers for Multiclassing," the options you gain may be worth giving up a feat or stat boost.

Five is actually a decent number. You go much longer, and you are not looking at an add on to your current class(es), but are entering a class that you were to this point simply trying to qualify for. Fewer, and you could easily mold it into a subclass progression (particularly if your Prestige Class is designed for / requires a specific class for entry), or could be fit into 1-2 Feats.

Another thing to consider is Tiers of Play. If you go over 5, you have to expect the character to transition through Tiers while completing the class progression, and the features should account for this.

[CyberThread]

You make your point with 5 levels, but I don't know. For me sounds 9 levels way better.


Only if you allow earlier entry without any wacko feat or dumb skill sets. The prestige class system really did work well, it just required a DM to maintain the garden of the weeds.

[ImSAMazing]

Prestige classes are dumb and useless, but that is just my opinion. I dont understand why people make these for 5e, because the problem is always with them: I first want level X, then Prestige level Y, and then level Z. If you want to combine features, multi-class, if you want to get stronger, get magic items. If you want to get even stronger, get blesses or Epic Boons.

[JNAProductions]

Except they provide flavor you can't get elsewhere. (Well, I lie. They could be subclasses or similar, but I found it easier to make Prestige Class.)

How are you going to make a Frostrager (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426273-Frostrager-Prestige-Class) Barbarian with the main system?

[Friv]

Except they provide flavor you can't get elsewhere. (Well, I lie. They could be subclasses or similar, but I found it easier to make Prestige Class.)

How are you going to make a Frostrager (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426273-Frostrager-Prestige-Class) Barbarian with the main system?

I know you said you find prestige classes easier than subclasses, but subclasses work pretty well.

You get primal path upgrades at 3, 6, 10 and 14. So you get Freezing Blood at Level 3, Frostrage at Level 6, Aura of Cold at Level 10, and Improved Frostrage at Level 14. You'd probably have to make some slight changes to the actual numbers to balance those out, but the concept is solid.

I feel like prestige classes in general are mostly redundant with archetypes in 5th Edition.

[Nifft]

I'm thinking that because of the ASL schedule a 4 or 8 level prestige class makes some sense.
I think this is a really clever idea.

If I ever need PrCs in 5e, they'll probably be 4 or 8 levels.

[MrStabby]

Actually this is one of the reasons I prefer 3. I feel a prestige class should offer something unique and specialist and nothing seems more generic than an ASI.

I want unusual abilities in my PRCs that you cant get elsewhere.

[JNAProductions]

I know you said you find prestige classes easier than subclasses, but subclasses work pretty well.

You get primal path upgrades at 3, 6, 10 and 14. So you get Freezing Blood at Level 3, Frostrage at Level 6, Aura of Cold at Level 10, and Improved Frostrage at Level 14. You'd probably have to make some slight changes to the actual numbers to balance those out, but the concept is solid.

I feel like prestige classes in general are mostly redundant with archetypes in 5th Edition.

I'll look into that. Some, though, like Mystic Theurge, just plain don't work as subclasses.

[Nifft]

I'll look into that. Some, though, like Mystic Theurge, just plain don't work as subclasses.

I haven't tried it, so I might be wrong here, but I thought that Mystic Theurge was supported via multi-classing.

Spell slots stack, so you'd get the effect of having as many basic spell slots as everyone else, but you'd have lower-level spells from two lists instead of higher-level from one list.

[JNAProductions]

Oh, you can. But the actual Mystic Theurge Prestige Class grants extra slots at the cost of abilities.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Because 5 is such a nice round number, well except the top of it but nothing is perfect...

5 levels should be 1/4 of your power. Therefore you can split up abilities real easy.

Low Power
Mid Power (low, wiggle room)
Mid Power (low or high, wiggle room)
Mid Power (high, wiggle room)
High Power

You get your intro and exit abilities and cool things and you have three levels of wiggle room in order to make a decent prestige class.

[Warwick]

I know you said you find prestige classes easier than subclasses, but subclasses work pretty well.

Part of the problem with replacing prestige classes with subclasses is that you're locked in to a subclass from a fairly early level, whereas if there's something campaign specific that develops or you just aren't sure about where you want to go with the character, you can pick up a prestige class later.

[Nifft]

Hmm, so, just some random thoughts about Prestige Feats.

A Feat is supposed to be worth +2 to an ability score, or worth +1 to an ability score (and the feat provides an additional +1).

That means theoretically a Prestige Feat might be balanced by -2 to an ability score, or -1 to an ability score (if the feat isn't that great). Something like...

Druidic Avenger
Sacrifice: -1 Strength, -1 Constitution
Benefit:
* Add some spells to your spell list (list of good spells).
* Something cool when you use Wild Shape.
* A minor benefit regarding use of strongholds of the Order of Druidic Avengers, on par with what a Background could grant.
* An allegiance type of thing, like you are forever branded as an enemy of the Archmage of the Pandemonic Citadel and all of her minions, or whatever.

... then you can take that Prestige Feat at any time, and either use your next ASI to compensate for the penalty, or just suck it up as the cost of being special.

[Dimolyth]

Oh, you can. But the actual Mystic Theurge Prestige Class grants extra slots at the cost of abilities.

Which will directly disbalance system in 5e.
If you want arcane/divine caster with additional slots - you can go Favored Soul. Get partly wizard list, plus cleric domain`s, plus converting your sorcery points to slots. Yeah, I`ll need Ritual Caster (wizard) to fill the gap.

Though, multiclassing Cleric/Wizard works (I converted my PC Mystic Theurge from 3.5) - pretty much same feeling of character without any loss of "signature" features, and even better. That Nature Cleric/Abjurer Wizard Elf was pretty much Olin Gisir, Arcane Hierophant and Mystic Theurge at the same time, without any need to take a class level for getting social status.

And the whole thing is without even "mystic theurge" subclass (not mentioning prestige class) you can make the concept working mechanically.
For something like "Bladesinger" I thought it ought to be a feat, but eldritch knight OR valor bard OR bladelock OR multiclass combination - makes most it.

The only thing prestige classes could be unique - is social status. But there are guilds, with their mechanics in 5e after all.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Which will directly disbalance system in 5e.
If you want arcane/divine caster with additional slots - you can go Favored Soul. Get partly wizard list, plus cleric domain`s, plus converting your sorcery points to slots. Yeah, I`ll need Ritual Caster (wizard) to fill the gap.

Which will directly screw up the balance of a 5e game....

[Hawkstar]

Which will directly screw up the balance of a 5e game....

Care to explain?

[Submortimer]

Which will directly screw up the balance of a 5e game....

Except it doesn't, and you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.

[Joe the Rat]

Oh, you can. But the actual Mystic Theurge Prestige Class grants extra slots at the cost of abilities.


Which will directly disbalance system in 5e.

See, I'd figure the push for the MT would be to advance the spells prepared (known) for both classes, letting you get access to the higher level spells in each that you otherwise could not reach as a straight arcane/divine multiclass.

[PotatoGolem]

Why? Because I like 5 levels. And, outside of maybe three prestige classes, I make all the prestige classes.

Pretty much this- I haven't seen a non-JNA prestige class in a while. Essentially, it's not that there's a community consensus on 5 levels. There's one inventive and prolific dude who writes them all, so his way of doing things is the one that you see.

[Dimolyth]

Which will directly screw up the balance of a 5e game....

Do you mean that Favored Soul screw up the balance? In which way Favored Soul Sorcerer outshine any other class, except Dragon/Wild Sorcerer?
Does that mean, that Hunter Ranger screws up the system too, because it is mechanically better choice than Beastmaster?

...Or may be I just misundestood you.:smallamused:

[Dimolyth]

See, I'd figure the push for the MT would be to advance the spells prepared (known) for both classes, letting you get access to the higher level spells in each that you otherwise could not reach as a straight arcane/divine multiclass.

As for me, that is pure theory. Mystic Theurge in 3.X got two things:
1. A lot of slots for divine and arcane casting separately. And THAT will ruin balance because in 5e we got a limit of resources for casters.
There is a caster who has additional slots in the cost of other abilities - that`s sorcerer with font of magic. He is far more limited, but he doesn`t break balance.
2. Mixed spell list. Now you have a lore bard, favored soul sorcerer option, or multiclass option. Among them, only bard will give you high level cleric/wizard spell list. (although expanding that list doesn`t really help the party or adventure, if you have more than 2 PC).

That means, mystic theurges already exist in 5e. Just be creative and concentrate which game mechanics of mystic theurge will match most your concept. For my expirience - multiclass cleric/wizard fit.
I don`t see why anyone add options that already exist in the system.

[LuisDantas]

Actually this is one of the reasons I prefer 3. I feel a prestige class should offer something unique and specialist and nothing seems more generic than an ASI.

I want unusual abilities in my PRCs that you cant get elsewhere.

I take it that you are aware that Pathfinder is (AFAIK) designed along those lines?

If you are not acknowledge with that system's classes, you would probably like to do so in the future.