Marshal Improved

[Umarth]

Fan of the Marshal idea but having played one found them a bit on the weak side and certainly dreadfully dull to level up with the innumerable dead levels they have.

This remake helps them keep up a bit in combat without increasing their BAB progression and keeping the focus on working with others.

As such here's a remade martial. The orginal can be seen here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)


Marshal
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Minor|Major

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Skill Focus (Diplomacy), minor aura|1|0

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Major aura +1|1|1

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3| Lucky Strike|2|1

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Grant Ability 1/day|2|1

5th|
+3|
+5|
+2|
+5|Vexing Flanker|3|2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Improved Lucky Strike|3|2

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Major Aura +2|4|2

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6|Grant Ability 2/day|4|2

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|Adaptable Flanker|5|3

10th|
+7/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Project Second Minor Aura|5|3

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7|Superior Flanking|5|3

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Grant Ability 3/day|6|3

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Second Grant Ability 1/day|6|3

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9|Major aura+3|6|4

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9|Immediate aura 1/day|7|4

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Grant Ability 1/day|7|4

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Second Grant Ability 2/day, Immediate Aura 2/day|7|4

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Project Second Major aura|7|4

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Second Grant Ability 3/day, Immediate Aura 3/day|8|4

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Grant ability 5/day, major aura +4|8|5[/table]

Grant Ability: At 4th level the Marshal must select either "Grant Move Action" or "Adrenaline Boost" as their primary Grant Ability. At level 13 they are able to use the secondary ability a limited number of times per day.

The two lucky strike feats are homebrew they are:
Lucky Strike [General]
You know that lucky people can make their own luck. By focusing your will you’re somewhat able to reshape reality.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, BAB +1
Benefit: As a Swift Action, you apply your cha modifier to your next and damage roll that round. After that attack you suffer -2 penalty to your charisma score for 4 hours.

Improved Lucky Strike [General]
Through long practice you’ve gotten even better at imposing your will in a fight.
Prerequisites: Cha 15, BAB +6
Benefit: As a Swift Action, you apply half your cha modifier, rounded down, to all your attack and damage rolls until your next turn. At the start of your next turn you suffer -2 penalty to your charisma score for 4 hours.

All the flanking feats I belive are from PHB2.

[Zeta Kai]

Well, that is an improvement, from what I can see. Let me compare these a bit more...

[Magnor Criol]

What is the "Adrenaline Boost" ability?

[paigeoliver]

The Marshal isn't a weak class, the problem is that most people put them together poorly. They fall into various build traps and don't get the most out of the class.

The most common marshal trap is the diplomacy build. There are a million of them, but they all involve taking marshall and the charisma aura and spending all your feats and skill points on things that give bonuses and synergies to diplomacy.

The problem with the diplomacy build (other than often not being fun in play), is that it tops out in power at really low level, once you are around 6th level you can auto any diplomacy check with a decent diplomacy build. Marshals have incredible diplomacy checks without even trying, you don't need the charisma aura, you don't need to spend any feats on it, or multiclass into other classes for piddling bonuses. Just put in your skill ranks and get the synergies. If you simply MUST have the charisma aura (it is one of the worst, simply because the charisma aura is largely putting a +4 to +6 bonus on things you are foolproof in to begin with), then you certainly don't take it as your first aura. Your first level character isn't going to have a diplomacy check capable of converting creatures in combat at level 1, but it will likely be good enough for almost any normal use of the skill, and it jumps greatly at level 2 when the synergies kick in.

Another mistake is picking those major auras poorly. If you are a non-fighting marshal then the movement speed aura is the most powerful one. If you are a combat marshall than you probably want "Motivate attack". Unless for some reason you are an archer marshal, which I never see because marshals make bad archers.

The first tier minor auras are Art of War, Motivate Dexterity, Motivate Intelligence, and Over the Top. Your first couple auras should probably be from these four. These are the best general auras and synergize the best with the most character types, abilities and actions.

The next tier of minor auras are Master of Tactics, Force of Will, motivate charisma and motivate strength. Although motivate str is ONLY for aquatic campaigns or campaigns that feature lots of climbing. Master of tactics is good for melee heavy parties, and force of will is good for games that feature lots of NPC casters. Despite what I said earlier about motivate charisma it does boost A LOT of different things (including undead turning), so it makes the second tier.

Garbage auras. I would never take any of these. Motivate Wisdom, worthless because it is the sort of aura you have to walk around with turned on, and motivate dexterity is in that same category and is about 5 times better. You can't have them both on, so motivate wisdom is a wasted choice. If you are in a two marshal party though then motivate wisdom moves to first tier. Master of Opportunity, I'll take a bonus on the tumble check to not provoke over a bonus on armor class and an attack made against me any day. Motivate constitution is junk because there is only one skill that uses it (one that the marshal likely won't be using), and 3.5 D&D almost never uses constitution checks.

The rest of the minor auras are dependent upon character build, party composition and game world.

Of course marshal is a lot like most fighting classes in that the upper levels are mostly just there to look pretty. Most people will eventually multiclass their marshal character. Assuming you aren't just taking a small dip in the class then the logical exit levels are 7, 9, and 12, with 15 being the highest marshal level anyone should take unless they plan on taking epic marshal levels. The epic marshal is hidden somewhere on the wizards website and is AWESOME, particularly because there are epic marshal feats.

Marshal works particularly well with Paladin, Dragon Shaman Outcast Champion, Cavalier, and Warchief, with Warchief probably being the best prestige class for Marshals if it makes sense in the campaign. A Marshal warchief has himself a charisma of around 30-34 at 16th level. +12 marshal auras are nothing to sneeze at.

[Latronis]

And Knight

[Umarth]

What is the "Adrenaline Boost" ability?

It's an alternate ability from the PHB 2. It grants all your allies your level in temp hit points for your level in minutes. If they are under 1/2 HPs then it grants 2x your level in temp hit points.

[Corncracker]

Drop Lucky Strike, definately. It really doesn't fit the Class theme at all.

[Umarth]

The Marshal isn't a weak class, the problem is that most people put them together poorly. They fall into various build traps and don't get the most out of the class.

I'd disagree with you on that point, so would the folks on the Mass List of Class Effectiveness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42637) and so would just about every other place I've looked.

I won't deny that the Marshal has some nifty abilities but they do fall on the weak side. Marshal even more than a bard is someone who's great to have along once every other possible position has been filled. Rather than being a great 5th man they are more like great 8th men to have.

Here are the key drawbacks I tried to fix with the above Marshal:

1) Can't fight but doesn't have anything else to do. With the 3/4 BAB the Marshal has a hard time keeping up in melee combat and that's where he's going to spend his time. While it may be great that your providing wonderful buffs for everyone else you personally will mostly be missing or hitting for minimal damage. Oh and your d8 HD don't help a whole lot either.

2) Leveling up is dull. More so, in my opinion, than any other class the Marshal suffers from dead levels.
11 dead levels with no class abilities. Most of those dead levels the most your looking at is a new minor or major aura that will be sub-optimal to one you already have or maybe or a point of BAB.
Levels 9 & 17 you gain only HD and skill points. Don't even gain BAB or saves here.

3) The higher level you get the more abilities you have that you just won't use. By 7th-8th level you've really grabbed anything from the class you'll use on a regular basis. The next 12-13 levels are a collection of less and less useful auras.

Fix for issue 1:
By providing the Marshal with some oomph in combat (bonus flanking/lucky feats) we fix problem one and we do so in a way other than just upping the BAB. It gives us a decent melee character who is still focused on working with the group to be optimal.

Fix for issues 2&3:
By granting the ability to project secondary major and minor auras, bonus feats, and the use of both Grant Move action and Adrenaline Boost we give the Marshal something to look forward to as they level up.

[Umarth]

Drop Lucky Strike, definately. It really doesn't fit the Class theme at all.

Any idea what to replace it with? I'd really like to not have any dead levels.

[paigeoliver]

You do realize that a marshal that uses the melee attack aura essentially makes up for most or all of his lost attack bonus.

[Umarth]

You do realize that a marshal that uses the melee attack aura essentially makes up for most or all of his lost attack bonus.

The melee attack aura helps even out the BAB though the Marshal still tends to lag behind. It doesn't make up for the lost itterative attacks though or the lower str from the need for multiple ability scores.

Also do we really want to tell the Marshal that if your going to melee you have to use this aura? If so why do are multiple auras provided?

That aside do you think that the additional feats I listed are going to over power the Marshal?

[Edo]

My thoughts:
I like the extra feats, but not the CHOICE of feats. (The two Lucky Strikes in particular are suicidal; they debuff the entire party and get you diminishing returns on top of that.)

I'm tempted to say that the feats should be spaced out more, but you should be able to choose from the fighter list. This gives them some diversification options and the chance to use Art of War without dying.
Adrenaline Boost is underwhelming. Rather than getting a second Grant Ability at 13th, it'd be more useful if Grant Move Action scaled from being 3/day to 1/encounter.

(My reason for saying this is because, at 13th level, warblades get Order Forged From Chaos. Marshals need love to begin with, and are already outclassed in every other respect by initiating classes; they should at least be able to keep up with granting move actions, which they've been doing for ten levels by that point.)There are others, but those are what come to mind just now.

[Umarth]

My thoughts:
I like the extra feats, but not the CHOICE of feats. (The two Lucky Strikes in particular are suicidal; they debuff the entire party and get you diminishing returns on top of that.)

:) Those are two personal home brew feats so I might be a bit biased on them but I'm happy to take them out. I might look at improving them so they are worth taking as well.



I'm tempted to say that the feats should be spaced out more, but you should be able to choose from the fighter list. This gives them some diversification options and the chance to use Art of War without dying.

I could come up with a feat list rather than having set feats. Though maybe I'll go with a rangerish setup and have 2-3 feat paths they can take.


Adrenaline Boost is underwhelming. Rather than getting a second Grant Ability at 13th, it'd be more useful if Grant Move Action scaled from being 3/day to 1/encounter.

On Adrenaline Boost: This one is a lot more valuable in my homebrew where there is no instantinous healing (spells heal over a 24 hour period) so I'm going to leave it as an option.

Even in a standard setting with a standard martial Adrenaline Boost is rather sick if used properly. You get your army of 1st level warriors. They go through a blood ritual before combat that reduces them to half hit points. At 20th level they now all gain +40hps for the next 20 minutes and when it wears off/down you can do it again 4 more times. Maybe not game breaking but still not bad.

Maybe I'll combine the uses per day and allow them to use either ability instead. So at 20th they could use either up to 8 times per day and as an immediate action.

I'll think about it and try and post a revised version sometime tomorrow.

If anyone has ideas for bonus feats or a feat path please post.

[JackMage666]

I always though Leadership would be a fair feat for Marshals, considering ther fluff. Of course, some DMs don't like Leadership.

Perhaps they should just get Fighter Bonus Feats at 1st level and every 5 level or so?

[Umarth]

Here's an updated version based on the feedback so far.

It's a bit more open now and has some feat trees based on the Marshal abilities.


Marshal
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Minor|Major

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Skill Focus (Diplomacy), minor aura|1|0

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Major aura +1|1|1

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3| Marshal Style|2|1

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Grant Ability 1/day|2|1

5th|
+3|
+5|
+2|
+5|Skill Focus (Knowledge: History)|3|2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Marshal Style|3|2

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Major Aura +2|4|2

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6|Grant Ability 2/day|4|2

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|Marshal Style|5|3

10th|
+7/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Project Second Minor Aura|5|3

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7|Skill Focus (Knowledge: Geography) |5|3

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Marshal Style, Grant Ability 3/day|6|3

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Second Grant Ability|6|3

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9|Major aura+3|6|4

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9|Marshal Style, Immediate aura 1/day|7|4

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Grant Ability 4/day|7|4

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Immediate Aura 2/day|7|4

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Marshal Style, Project Second Major aura|7|4

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Immediate Aura 3/day|8|4

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Grant ability 5/day, major aura +4|8|5[/table]

Grant Ability: At 4th level the Marshal must select either "Grant Move Action" or "Adrenaline Boost" as their primary Grant Ability. At level 13 they are able to use the secondary ability as well. These share uses per day.

Marshal Styles:
At 3rd level a Marshal may start to develop a particular combat style. At every 3rd level after that they may continue to progress in a combat style they have started or they may start learning a new combat style. The Marshal does not need to meet the prerequisites for feats in her selected combat style though they must have the listed Minor Aura. If the Marshal already has the next feat in her style she may take he next feat she doesn't have in the style.

If the Marshal already has the next feat in his style he may take the next feat in that style he doesn't have.

Art of War:(Art of War aura) Improved Trip, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder

Master of Tactics:(Master of Tactics aura) Vexing Flanker, Adaptable Flanker, Superior Flanking

Over the Top:(Over the Top aura) Powerful Charge, Leap Attack, Frightful Presence

Master of Opportunity:(Master of Opportunity aura) Mobility, Spring Attack, Heroic Action

Leadership: (Motivate Charisma aura, Must be 6th level) Leadership, Extra Followers, Improved Cohort


Heroic Effort [General, Fighter]
You can call on reserves of strength and speed that come only from a hero’s heart.
Benefit: Once per day, you may take an extra move or attack action, either before or after your regular actions.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it allows you one more Heroic Effort per day.

[Harkone]

For comparison, what book is the original Marshall in?

[Harkone]

For comparison, what book is the original Marshall in?

[Harkone]

For comparison, what book is the original Marshall in?

[Umarth]

Mini handbook and a link to the WOTC site in my first post has the full class.

[paigeoliver]

Art of War:(Art of War aura) Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Sunder

You might want to switch up the order of those feats, as tripping is the one useful thing that marshals tend to be able to do well in combat. The given changes would make a lot of lower level marshals worse, as they would be putting off improved trip and waiting to just get it for free. My suggestion is to change the order to this.

Art of War:(Art of War aura) Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder.

[Umarth]

Would they take it any other levels in it if they got improved trip first?

[Edo]

Would they take it any other levels in it if they got improved trip first?I would. Art of War is a VERY nice setup to qualify for Shock Trooper at 9th and Combat Brute at 12th.

Combine with the Over the Top feats, and you can keep up with damage at 20th level. Not that you'll be the best, by any means - but you won't be consigned to standing around looking pretty.

[Umarth]

I would. Art of War is a VERY nice setup to qualify for Shock Trooper at 9th and Combat Brute at 12th.

Okay it's done then. Edited it above so trip is now first in Art of War.