Best Martial Maneuvers?

[LoyalPaladin]

Hey everybody,
I'm currently playing Zaydos' wonderful Incarnation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?306621-So-you-want-to-play-a-god-(3-5-Base-Class-PEACH)) base class and am looking for a little help.

I am about to take the "Martial God" feat and am not the world's leading expert on initiators. So I've come to you, Playground. If you could take a single maneuver, without qualifying for them, from each level of maneuvers, what would you take?

Here is how the feat reads:
"When you take this feat select one martial discipline (see Tome of Battle). You add that discipline’s skill to your Incarnation class skills and each day when you regain spell-like abilities you may replace up to half of the spell levels of spell-like abilities granted by the War domain with one maneuver or stance of the replaced level from your selected discipline."

Currently, I am level 8, so I can only take 2 maneuvers and they have to be between levels 1-4. I was thinking White Raven would be a good discipline, but Iron Heart looks awesome too.

I believe I'm rambling, so I'll leave it to you all!

Small Note:
I'm a primary melee with some sweet SLA's, my main role in the party is holding it together and fielding the battle as needed.

[YossarianLives]

I believe the only correct answer to this question would be to scream "Iron Heart Surge!"

[LoyalPaladin]

I believe the only correct answer to this question would be to scream "Iron Heart Surge!"
I never understood why Iron Heart Surge is so highly praised. I think I've got to be missing something. It seems like this is really potent against enchantments and things, but how does it trump so many other powerful maneuvers?

[Fuzzy McCoy]

it's the ultimate get out of jail maneuver. Stuck in black tentacles or solid fog? Iron heart surge. Feared, charmed, sickened? Iron heart surge. It covers a lot of conditions, and it allows you to just keep going, no matter what's in your way.

[LoyalPaladin]

it's the ultimate get out of jail maneuver. Stuck in black tentacles or solid fog? Iron heart surge. Feared, charmed, sickened? Iron heart surge. It covers a lot of conditions, and it allows you to just keep going, no matter what's in your way.
Oh my. I also just read 1d4 chan's description (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Iron_heart_surge) as well. Double oh my.

[erok0809]

If you take white raven, white raven tactics is a good choice for helping break the action economy.

[Brova]

iron heart surge is written in a ... less than precise way. Theoretically, it allows you to end effects like "the sun" or "gravity". Even if your DM won't let you go full out, it's still pretty good (basically a guaranteed dispel magic that won't hit buffs).

white raven tactics isn't quite as absurd as a iron heart surge, but it's very good, especially if multiple initiators chain it. It becomes instantly insane if you happen to be an Idiot Crusader, because you can take an infinite number of turns.

Nothing else really jumps out as nuts. There's a stun somewhere that, IIRC, doesn't give a save. 5th level White Raven, I think?

[OldTrees1]

The 2 Strongest manuevers are Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. This remains true even at their weakest interpretations.

White Raven Tactics at its weakest interpretation takes you often neglected Swift Action and transforms it into a Full Turn for whomever you wish. Haste was strong enough in 3.0 when it granted 1 extra action that they nerfed it in 3.5. WRT grants much more & grants it immediately(which is quite useful when you need someone to go RIGHT NOW).

Iron Heart Surge at its weakest interpretation removes a lot of debilitating conditions that Martials had to just deal with before or ask a priest for assistance. It is also important to note that it works faster than the Priest since it clears all targets at once.

After those 2 it is a long cry to the next most powerful maneuvers.
Strike of Righteous Vitality is pretty nice since it heals you up via the Heal spell
Martial Spirit is rather weak by itself but can easily break in Mass Combat
Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink are nice teleport maneuvers as well which ShadowPounce frequently abuses.


However while IHS and WRT are the most powerful maneuvers by far, they would not be my choice for a free maneuver. For that I would have to look at the costs. I can get both of those godly maneuvers with a single level of Warblade but Strike of Righteous Vitality or Shadow Blink would cost many levels. So I would likely pick an expensive maneuver when I can ignore the costs and pay the cheap price for IHS and WRT.

[AmberVael]

Nothing else really jumps out as nuts. There's a stun somewhere that, IIRC, doesn't give a save. 5th level White Raven, I think?

White Raven Hammer. 8th level.

Dazing Strike (Iron Heart) and Disrupting Blow (Diamond Mind) are 5th level maneuvers that daze/remove actions, but they allow a save.

[Brova]

White Raven Hammer. 8th level.

Sigh. Because apparently one round of daze is as good as greater planar binding or polymorph any object.

[LoyalPaladin]

I'm getting the feeling that Iron Heart and White Raven are going to be the near unanimous recommendation, no matter how long this thread is open. So now, what would be the best maneuvers to take from them? For ease, let's say I could have one from each level.


The 2 Strongest manuevers are Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. This remains true even at their weakest interpretations.

White Raven Tactics at its weakest interpretation takes you often neglected Swift Action and transforms it into a Full Turn for whomever you wish. Haste was strong enough in 3.0 when it granted 1 extra action that they nerfed it in 3.5. WRT grants much more & grants it immediately(which is quite useful when you need someone to go RIGHT NOW).

Iron Heart Surge at its weakest interpretation removes a lot of debilitating conditions that Martials had to just deal with before or ask a priest for assistance. It is also important to note that it works faster than the Priest since it clears all targets at once.
This is really comprehensive and helpful. Thank you!


White Raven Hammer. 8th level.
Oh. I really like this one. Haha.


Sigh. Because apparently one round of daze is as good as greater planar binding or polymorph any object.
Hahaha.

[Reprimand]

Warblade Times Stands Still with combat rhythm feat to set up for diamond nightmare blade. it hurts a lot.

Takes a round to set up though.

[OldTrees1]

I'm getting the feeling that Iron Heart and White Raven are going to be the near unanimous recommendation, no matter how long this thread is open. So now, what would be the best maneuvers to take from them? For ease, let's say I could have one from each level.


This is really comprehensive and helpful. Thank you!

You're welcome.

Judgements range:
ugh, meh, ok I guess, solid, IHS/WRT

I took maneuver level into account in this judgement. As such higher level maneuvers tend to have much worse scores since they really are not comparable to what they ought to be.

Iron Heart:
1st: STEEL WIND(meh, 2 attacks as a Standard Action)
2nd: WALL OF BLADES(meh, Parry as a counter. Ought to have been a stance)
3rd: IRON HEART SURGE(The weakest interpretation is of acceptable strength)
4th: MITHRAL TORNADO(meh, 5ft whirlwind attack as a Standard action)
5th: IRON HEART FOCUS(meh, reroll 1 saving throw)
or
5th: DAZING STRIKE(meh, save vs 1rd Daze, limited to every other round at best)
6th: MANTICORE PARRY(meh, upgraded version of the 2nd level maneuver. Ought to be an AoO fueled stance)
or
6th: IRON HEART ENDURANCE(meh, out of combat healing)
7th: SCYTHING BLADE(ugh, +1 attack is barely comparable to the 1st level maneuver, better than the other option though)
8th: LIGHTNING THROW(okay I guess, 30ft line AoE as a Standard action)
9th: STRIKE OF PERFECT CLARITY(ugh, +100 damage, only option though)

White Raven
1st: DOUSE THE FLAMES(ok I guess, prevent target from using AoOs for 1 rd)
2nd: TACTICAL STRIKE(ok I guess, allies can make an immediate 5ft step for free)
3rd: WHITE RAVEN TACTICS(The weakest interpretation is of acceptable strength)
4th: COVERING STRIKE(meh, 3 round version of the 1st level ability, also only works once per foe per encounter)
5th: FLANKING MANEUVER(Solid, flanking allies can attack for free, cheaper but hard to setup than the 7th level ability)
6th: ORDER FORGED FROM CHAOS(Solid, Grant all allies immediate movement)
7th: SWARMING ASSAULT(okay I guess, allies can attack for free, easily better than the 9th level ability)
or
7th: CLARION CALL(meh, if you down an enemy your allies can either attack or take a move action, better effect but harder trigger)
8th: WHITE RAVEN HAMMER(ugh, no save Stun, Iron Heart does it better and earlier but requires a save)
9th: WAR MASTER’S CHARGE(meh, allies can charge as an immediate action, did we need to wait till 9th for this?)

[Extra Anchovies]

Despite the absurd, nearly game-breaking power of White Raven (infinite actions via Idiot Crusader shenanigans) and Iron Heart (IHS the sun, or your class levels, or whatever), Diamond Mind has some really strong stuff that works great even when not abused. The save-replacing maneuvers are particularly good; making a concentration check in place of a save means you don't auto-fail on a natural 1 and you have a base of +23 instead of +12 or +6.

[LoyalPaladin]

Warblade Times Stands Still with combat rhythm feat to set up for diamond nightmare blade. it hurts a lot.

Takes a round to set up though.
I am a big fan of Diamond Mind...


Judgements range:
ugh, meh, ok I guess, solid, IHS/WRT

I took maneuver level into account in this judgement. As such higher level maneuvers tend to have much worse scores since they really are not comparable to what they ought to be.
This sort of makes IH and WR sound sub par, save for two maneuvers?


Despite the absurd, nearly game-breaking power of White Raven (infinite actions via Idiot Crusader shenanigans) and Iron Heart (IHS the sun, or your class levels, or whatever), Diamond Mind has some really strong stuff that works great even when not abused. The save-replacing maneuvers are particularly good; making a concentration check in place of a save means you don't auto-fail on a natural 1 and you have a base of +23 instead of +12 or +6.
Unfortunately, my DM still fails people on skill rolls. Which, again, is unfortunate.

I do like Diamond Mind's maneuvers though, Tiger Claw LOOKS fun, but sub par.

[AmberVael]

Yeah, in terms of best discipline Diamond Mind really has a lot to offer. It doesn't quite have the same single maneuver powerhouses, but you can generally find something worth using at each level.

To compare it to White Raven and Iron Heart in the same manner as OldTrees did:


1st: Moment of Perfect Mind (For many martial characters this is a good maneuver that you can find use for at every level, covering one of your most vulnerable points).
2nd: Emerald Razor (While its efficacy tapers off at higher levels, turning a normal attack into a touch attack can be pretty terrifying- you can either use it to almost guarantee a hit, or use it to effectively compensate for a massive power attack).
3rd: Insightful Strike (Eh. This one is more fun than effective- its biggest draw is the ability to turn basically anything into a lethal weapon, since the damage you deal has nothing to do with what you're wielding).
4th: Bounding Assault (This one is decent, allowing you to basically take an extra maneuverable charge).
Or:
4th: Ruby Nightmare Blade (Double damage hit! While it loses you an iterative, it will overall deal more consistent and better damage, while also allowing a move action).
5th: Disrupting Blow (Will save vs lose all your actions. Affects creatures immune to stun and daze, good for shutting down a big dumb bruiser for a turn).
6th: Greater Insightful Strike (Insightful Strike, except far more damage. The ability to deal Massive Damage with a toothpick is pretty fun).
7th: Quicksilver Motion (Bonus move action!)
8th: Diamond Nightmare Blade (This is substantially better than a full attack, eschewing the weaknesses of iteratives and allowing you to load all your damage on your best attack, while still getting a move action).
9th: Time Stands Still (You know what is also better than a full attack? Two full attacks. Also, fun fact: You can use Time Stands Still with ranged weapons).

[Extra Anchovies]

Unfortunately, my DM still fails people on skill rolls. Which, again, is unfortunate.

I do like Diamond Mind's maneuvers though, Tiger Claw LOOKS fun, but sub par.

Tiger Claw is great if your chassis supports TWF... like the Warblade//Rogue/Scout I've got going in that Barbary Corsairs game.

[LoyalPaladin]

Yeah, in terms of best discipline Diamond Mind really has a lot to offer. It doesn't quite have the same single maneuver powerhouses, but you can generally find something worth using at each level.

To compare it to White Raven and Iron Heart in the same manner as OldTrees did:


1st: Moment of Perfect Mind (For many martial characters this is a good maneuver that you can find use for at every level, covering one of your most vulnerable points).
2nd: Emerald Razor (While its efficacy tapers off at higher levels, turning a normal attack into a touch attack can be pretty terrifying- you can either use it to almost guarantee a hit, or use it to effectively compensate for a massive power attack).
3rd: Insightful Strike (Eh. This one is more fun than effective- its biggest draw is the ability to turn basically anything into a lethal weapon, since the damage you deal has nothing to do with what you're wielding).
4th: Bounding Assault (This one is decent, allowing you to basically take an extra maneuverable charge).
Or:
4th: Ruby Nightmare Blade (Double damage hit! While it loses you an iterative, it will overall deal more consistent and better damage, while also allowing a move action).
5th: Disrupting Blow (Will save vs lose all your actions. Affects creatures immune to stun and daze, good for shutting down a big dumb bruiser for a turn).
6th: Greater Insightful Strike (Insightful Strike, except far more damage. The ability to deal Massive Damage with a toothpick is pretty fun).
7th: Quicksilver Motion (Bonus move action!)
8th: Diamond Nightmare Blade (This is substantially better than a full attack, eschewing the weaknesses of iteratives and allowing you to load all your damage on your best attack, while still getting a move action).
9th: Time Stands Still (You know what is also better than a full attack? Two full attacks. Also, fun fact: You can use Time Stands Still with ranged weapons).
Thank you for this. Luckily, I can choose a new discipline each day I believe. So I'll probably use Diamond Mind primarily, then switch to White Raven when needed.


Tiger Claw is great if your chassis supports TWF... like the Warblade//Rogue/Scout I've got going in that Barbary Corsairs game.
Yeah. I'm not a TWF kind of guy, but that's a personal thing hahaha.

[Red Fel]

Thank you for this. Luckily, I can choose a new discipline each day I believe. So I'll probably use Diamond Mind primarily, then switch to White Raven when needed.

Not exactly.

Martial God
War is your nature and wellspring of your power.
Prerequisites: Martial Stance, Incarnation level 3+, War domain.
Benefits: When you take this feat select one martial discipline (see Tome of Battle). You add that discipline’s skill to your Incarnation class skills and each day when you regain spell-like abilities you may replace up to half of the spell levels of spell-like abilities granted by the War domain with one maneuver or stance of the replaced level from your selected discipline. You do not need to meet any prerequisites for these selected maneuvers, and cannot use them to fulfill prerequisites. You may recover one maneuver each round as a swift action, but may not use a maneuver the same turn your recover it. By spending 5 minutes in meditation you may exchange these maneuvers for any maneuvers of the same levels from the same discipline. Your initiator level for these maneuvers is equal to your Incarnation level + 1/2 your levels in other classes.
Note the emphasized parts. You get your one discipline. You can change the maneuvers, but they must be from that discipline.

[LoyalPaladin]

Not exactly.

Note the emphasized parts. You get your one discipline. You can change the maneuvers, but they must be from that discipline.
Oh, wow. Somehow I misread that. Then perhaps I will just stick with Diamond Mind, since I've maxed Concentration anyways.

[OldTrees1]

This sort of makes IH and WR sound sub par, save for two maneuvers?
Um. It is more of a universal problem with the content of the great subsystem. For comparison I will rate the maneuvers AmberVael selected from Diamond Mind.

1st: Moment of Perfect Mind (Solid, and the others are also Solid to ok I guess, just compare this to Iron Heart Focus to see why).
2nd: Emerald Razor (meh).
3rd: Insightful Strike (ugh, +numbers).
4th: Bounding Assault (ugh, frequently equaled or outdone by lower level maneuvers).
Or:
4th: Ruby Nightmare Blade (ugh, *numbers).
5th: Disrupting Blow (Solid, best of its breed).
6th: Greater Insightful Strike (ugh, +numbers).
7th: Quicksilver Motion (ugh, frequently equaled or outdone by lower level maneuvers)
8th: Diamond Nightmare Blade (ugh, *numbers).
9th: Time Stands Still (ok I guess, can be better/worse than White Raven's 7th level maneuver, better just often enough to still get the same rating as the lower level maneuver).

As you can see, I am very harsh in my criticism for specific maneuvers.

Based upon your particular method of gaining them, I would probably order them as White Raven>Diamond Mind>Iron Heart but they are all acceptable options and their good maneuvers are focused on different directions.

[AmberVael]

As you can see, I am very harsh in my criticism for specific maneuvers.

I think you could just change that to "harsh in my criticism for maneuvers" given that pretty much nothing besides the maneuvers that are called broken get more than an "ugh" from you.

[OldTrees1]

I think you could just change that to "harsh in my criticism for maneuvers" given that pretty much nothing besides the maneuvers that are called broken get more than an "ugh" from you.

I don't think so. I have lots good to say about the system and I judge the broken ones off the minimum interpretation(rather than the normal interpretation or the maximum interpretation that they are known for). It is just the higher level maneuvers do not improve fast enough to justify them being that many levels higher than the low level(1-3) maneuvers.

(Also you might want to count the number of "meh"s vs the number of "ugh"s)

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'll be honest, I prefer Devoted Spirit to most other Disciplines (Shadow Hand barely edges it out personally). Then again, I enjoy being supportive. If you choose Devoted Spirit; here are my choices.


Crusader's Strike: Nothing better than free, effortless healing, even a tiny amount that doesn't scale well
Foehammer: Ignoring DR makes back up weapons unneccesary. Enough said.
Oh 3rd level. These are all good and depends what you want. Defensive Rebuke is a good way to cheat your way into being an MMO tank (though you lack a way of being sticky without Thicket of Blades). Revitalizing Strike is a better scaling Crusader's Strike. And Thicket of Blades to give you the best Sticky ability in the game.
Both are good and depends on what you want. Divine Surge for just dealing one big whallop (though other Maneuvers in other Disciplines do it better) while Entangling Blade helps lockdown targets even more.
Honestly, the Alignment options on this level are kind of sketch and none of them ever really apealed to me. Daunting Strike is always nice to throw a debuff (though a bit sad it took this long to get a simple -2 debuff).
These are your bread and butter. Personally, I prefer Law's Aura of Perfect Order. Its Take 10, but +1 and on ANY d20 roll EVERY round. That makes making saves, hitting that hard Power Attack and all kinds of other unccertanties gaurentees. The only other Alignment Stance I enjoy is Aura of Chaos. Being able to risk chance and add tons of damage. Works best if you have a bunch of damage dice to begin with (less so if your just running your weapon die). Rallying Strike is eh, its Revitalizing Strike in an Area with a higher cap.
Shield Counter is great! As long as you have a Shield. Castigating Strike is decent, AoE Damage and Debuff is pretty good
Oh man. Immortal Fortitude is the best thing to grace tanks. Being able to just say NO to death is amazing. But I admit it requires a more traditional attempts at murder to be effective. Greater Divine Surge is interesting, especially if you have a way to patch the Con Damage on the cheap. Combo with Aura of Chaos for huge chance of absolutely monstrous damage.
Strike of Heal Righteous Vitality. Being able to spam Heal every couple of rounds is the single most effective In-Combat Healing, period. Fully or nearly fully recovering most allies HP and ridding them of tons of harmful statuses is insane. The range kind of sucks but if your already a Tank, your probably wanting that free Heal more than your allies.

[Zaydos]

As has already come up the strongest maneuver is either Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics (well ok a few 7th+ maneuvers have them beat).

As far as Disciplines go Diamond Mind, White Raven, or Devoted Spirit tends to be the strongest.

DM is awesome if you focus on Concentration, either for saving throw replacement (less important with Incarnations static defenses) or big damage at higher levels. I also just plain love touch attack as a maneuver.

White Raven depends a lot on your allies. Leading the Charge is the single best stance for damage (and despite being 1st level arguably the single best stance). Its 9th level maneuver is the best damage if you have other melee combatants, and a lot of its maneuvers help your allies attack. If you have a ton of melee combatants it's good, I tend to have 1 or 2 (counting initiator) and one or two who are sort of melee (out of 5 person party) and it's not dominant there. Note that War Master's Charge adds damage to each allies' charge and forces a save vs stun if multiple people hit the same guy.

Devoted Spirit has healing, shielding allies, foehammer (begins losing effectiveness once you've got full attacks but still good), and Divine Surge is the best damage maneuver for multiple levels of maneuvers. It also gets Heal spell as a martial strike which is just plain awesome. Limited to 4th level maneuvers Divine Surge is the way to go for raw damage.

Shadow Hand deserves a mention for being very useful for things other than damage. Swift action invisibility (till end of turn only), teleportation, multi-round paralysis (5th level iirc). It's really quite useful.

Tiger Claw also gets mention because of Sudden Leap (swift action jump) for melee positioning, Pouncing Charge, and... well ok, I tend to just snag a few things from TC as a warblade.

The other disciplines have their nice points but I typically go Diamond Mind primary (unless Crusader) with a few from others (Desert Wind deserves mention for having some very good damage boosts), or Devoted Spirit + White Raven (when Crusader).

As for maneuvers/stances by level (only up to 5th)...


Burning Blade: While Distracting Ember is good, you lack Sneak Attack so 1d6+Level to all attacks for a round is better.
Flashing Sun: Fire Riposte's 4d6 damage as an immediate action when hit can be useful, but fire resistance will negate the lion's share. Flashing Sun, however, gives you a small penalty to hit for a 3rd attack during the round. Not the best, but not the worst. Actually a decent damage boost at all levels and unlike Mountain Hammer/Foehammer doesn't get obsoleted by a full attack.
Death Mark: 6d6 fire damage in an AoE on a successful attack is pretty good at 5th level, and still useful at 8th, and all the others of this level make me -_-
Searing Charge: While I love Searing Blade, perfect maneuverability flight on your charge is nice, and +5d6 damage doesn't hurt either.
Leaping Flame: Only one that doesn't suck, and it's situational.




Martial Spirit: While Crusader's Strike offers more burst healing, this is just every attack heal someone 2. It takes 4-5 hits to catch up to Crusader's Strike but can be used as many times a round as you have attacks (in theory) and doesn't require you to recover it.
Foehammer: +2d6 damage and ignore DR. Best, or worst, likely scenario that comes out to an average +22 damage at high levels, and +12 to +17 where you are. Of course in a lot of combats it will be +7 damage. Nothing to sneer at, and I usually take it or Mountain Hammer.
Thicket of Blades: 5-ft steps provoke AoOs from you. It's nice. Though might mean you should take crusader's strike over Martial Spirit; Revitalizing Strike is good if you need more healing but otherwise is just meh.
Divine Surge: +8d8 damage, averages to +36 damage. Diamond Mind might have better depending upon your base damage, but for flat +damage it's the best till I think it's 7th level maneuvers.
Whatever your alignment allows. Not sure whether Law or Good is better, never used either.




Moment of Perfect Mind or Sapphire Nightmare Strike: While MoPM is my favorite 1st level maneuver, it loses something when you have a Good Will save and immunity to charm and dominate. Sapphire Nightmare Blade is nice if you really just need a small bonus to hit (or have sneak attack) and/or damage, but otherwise meh.
Emerald Razor: Touch attack. Ensure a hit, or PA for full and watch them suffer.
Insightful Strike: At this level it is standard action attack for 21.5 plus Con, becomes better with a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (if you go Diamond Mind pick up a Tunic).
Ruby Nightmare Blade: 2 attacks in one. Requires you to have a Concentration high enough to match your attack bonus, but means you can PA for more and only deal with DR once. Potentially more damage than Divine Surge though unlikely (as bonus dice are not normally multiplied).
Hearing the Air or Disrupting Blow: Disrupting Blow is a Will save (based off of Strength) or 1 round (not technically) daze, almost nothing is immune and it takes a foe out for a turn. Hearing the Air is utility. Blindsense is a good ability to have and lets you avoid a lot of ambushes.




Punishing Stance: Not gonna lie all of these are niche. Punishing Stance is AC to damage passively. Steely Wind is good if you have a standard action and no better maneuver to use. I'd go with the ability to get +1d6 damage at the cost of 2 AC.
Wall of Blades: AC replacement. Unlike Setting Sun's you get to use this after knowing the result of the attack so you know your odds of blocking, and you already will be investing in attack. Not as good on a secondary melee as on a warblade, however (your attack bonus will be noticeably lower typically).
Iron Heart Surge: Arguably the best maneuver in the game. Even with weaker interpretations arguably the best maneuver in the game (though that's partially apples to oranges comparisons).
Mithral Tornado: While Lightning Recovery can turn a miss into a hit, I prefer the ability to walk into a mass of enemies and attack them all. Still one I often pass over.
Dazing Strike or Iron Heart Focus: Both of these are actually pretty good. Dazing Strike is a worse Distracting Blow in that since it's Fort it doesn't work on Con -, but better against low Fort enemies (casters) while worse against high Fort (Fort typically is a little higher than Will). Iron Heart Focus is a good defensive ability for when you really need not to fail a save.



Setting Sun: Never been one to use it; good for chain tripping I think?


Shadow Blade Technique: Assassin's Strike is dominant enough for 3rd level that I'd take it and stay in it over either of these stances. Clinging Shadow deals bonus damage (not listed in short description) but DC 11 with Wis 10 Fort negates its defensive bonus so I'd go with accuracy and better chance of crit over it.
Cloak of Deception: Invisibility. Good bonus to hit (+2 and they lose Dex), ability to get out of melee when needed. Triggers Assassin's Stance when you can't flank. I like it. The teleport (Shadow Jaunt) is pretty useful too but outdated when you get 5th level maneuvers.
Assassin's Stance: +2d6 sneak attack.
Obscuring Shadow Veil: Normally I'd suggest Hand of Death (Fort or 1d3 rounds paralysis) but 10 Wis means it's DC 14, and +17.5 damage with a DC 14 save versus having a 50% miss chance is probably better.
Shadow Stride: Move action teleport 50 ft. Bloodletting is fun too (4 Con damage, Fort halves) but with low Wis I'd go with the teleport. It's also cooler.




Stone Bones: All of these are meh. DR 5/adamantine usually equals DR 5 though and is a useful 1 round defense.
Mountain Hammer: Foehammer but usable regardless of target's alignment... you do have to not be flying, though.
Roots of the Mountain: Your other options at this level are +14 damage and minor effect. Roots is situational at best and requires you to be rather immobile. It's rather meh.
Bonesplitting Strike: 2 Con damage. No save, no nothing just 2 Con damage.
Elder Mountain Hammer: Mountain Hammer/Foehammer but 14 more damage. Giant's Stance is also worth noting if you pass up Roots of the Mountain for +2-3.5 damage/attack as long as you don't move much (or spend a swift action to reactivate it) and stay on the ground.




Sudden Leap: While Hunter's Sense is good for utility, and Blood in the Water is great if you are going for crits, Sudden Leap just helps you move. If you aren't investing in Jump it's not worthwhile, but even with a standing jump if you have max ranks it can move you 10 ft as a swift action to get into full attack range. Ok, it's not great without Leaping Dragon (which would make it ~30 ft).
Claw at the Moon: If you've invested in Jump it's... a worse Foehammer.
Leaping Dragon Stance: +10-ft enhancement to jump checks. I am not 100% sure what that means. Also makes all jumps running jumps. It's good with Sudden Leap and if you lack flight. Once you've got at-will flight it's pretty outdated.
Death from Above: +4d6 damage and flat-footed with a DC 20 Jump check. It's not particularly good.
Pouncing Charge: Pounce! Actually both of this level are pretty good. +1 attack at highest bonus for a swift action (2 if you dual wield) or pounce, take your pick.




Leading the Charge: +Level damage on charges, for you and nearby allies.
Battle Leader's Charge: +10 damage on charge and prevents some AoOs.
White Raven Tactics: Yes.
White Raven Strike: +14 damage and renders the target flat-footed for a round; good against high Dex foes, or if you have a ranged rogue.
Flanking Maneuver: Hit flanked target and allies also flanking it get a go. Good with rogues, or characters with reach weapons.

[Reprimand]

Halfling crusader unarmed strike infinite damage loop is also good.

I think there's a stance that's like if you roll minimum or maximum damage you roll damage again and halfing being a small creature deals 1d2 with its unarmed strike take improved unarmed strike and you can kill anything in the game you can hit.

[Zaydos]

Halfling crusader unarmed strike infinite damage loop is also good.

I think there's a stance that's like if you roll minimum or maximum damage you roll damage again and halfing being a small creature deals 1d2 with its unarmed strike take improved unarmed strike and you can kill anything in the game you can hit.

It's max. The combo requires Imbue Healing on a cleric with the Luck domain iirc and there is argument over whether it works and a DM will hit you for trying that.

[Brova]

It's max. The combo requires Imbue Healing on a cleric with the Luck domain iirc and there is argument over whether it works and a DM will hit you for trying that.

I've been meaning to ask for a while, how is that better than casting baleful polymorph or charm monster? Someone rolls a d20, and a guy drops from the fight. Why is one of them broken? Is there a sadism effect I'm missing?

[Reprimand]

it's literally a infinite loop and it's bs it just keeps going and going.

[Extra Anchovies]

I've been meaning to ask for a while, how is that better than casting baleful polymorph or charm monster? Someone rolls a d20, and a guy drops from the fight. Why is one of them broken? Is there a sadism effect I'm missing?

It's easier to control your own rolls than it is to control your enemies'. Also the d2 crusader can do its thing once per round per attack (shuriken work for the trick as well, if you run out of enemies in melee range), and death from hit point damage isn't easy to reverse in-combat unless you have a high-level Cleric on hand (to cast revenance or whatever).

Also it's an easily-achievable true infinite, so there's that.

[Brova]

It's easier to control your own rolls than it is to control your enemies'.

Fair.


Also the d2 crusader can do its thing once per round per attack (shuriken work for the trick as well, if you run out of enemies in melee range),

So? An 11th level Wizard can cast planar binding. Or freezing fog. Or cloudkill.


and death from hit point damage isn't easy to reverse in-combat unless you have a high-level Cleric on hand (to cast revenance or whatever).

I mean, most stuff is hard to cure in combat, especially at an effective rate. And actual death, rather than stoning or dominate, is one of the easier things to remove in general.

[Extra Anchovies]

So? An 11th level Wizard can cast planar binding. Or freezing fog. Or cloudkill.

Yeah, but that's once per round. An 11th level crusader can deal infinity damage three times per round. That's, like, three infinities, man.

But I don't get the point of this argument. Nobody's said that the trick makes Crusaders better than Wizards, so let's not turn this into another class war thread (there are, like, four of those going on right now).

[Brova]

Yeah, but that's once per round. An 11th level crusader can deal infinity damage three times per round. That's, like, three infinities, man.

But I don't get the point of this argument. Nobody's said that the trick makes Crusaders better than Wizards, so let's not turn this into another class war thread (there are, like, four of those going on right now).

Fair. I'm not saying it's bad, it just doesn't seem all that broken. But you are totally right that this is not an argument that needs to happen

[Reprimand]

It's easier to control your own rolls than it is to control your enemies'. Also the d2 crusader can do its thing once per round per attack (shuriken work for the trick as well, if you run out of enemies in melee range), and death from hit point damage isn't easy to reverse in-combat unless you have a high-level Cleric on hand (to cast revenance or whatever).

Also it's an easily-achievable true infinite, so there's that.

My DM literally threw the ToB book at me when I tried this with my friend providing luck domain for the first time. He did the same thing when I tried battle jumping monk but with the unapproachable east book, moral of the story is don't break the game unless you like having books thrown at you.

[LoyalPaladin]

As has already come up the strongest maneuver is either Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics (well ok a few 7th+ maneuvers have them beat).

As far as Disciplines go Diamond Mind, White Raven, or Devoted Spirit tends to be the strongest.

DM is awesome if you focus on Concentration, either for saving throw replacement (less important with Incarnations static defenses) or big damage at higher levels. I also just plain love touch attack as a maneuver.
Holy cow, Zaydos. You pretty much knocked that out of the park. Thank you, I think I'll probably go Diamond Mind, but if my party decides they need healing or some extra set up, I might take White Raven or Devoted Spirit.


Halfling crusader unarmed strike infinite damage loop is also good.
This is most likely frowned upon.

[Reprimand]

Hence the post above you.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hence the post above you.
That is horrifying haha.