A more ethical locate city bomb?

[Jowgen]

Most people are familiar with the locate city bomb, but here's a quick refresher on this monstro-city *cricket*

The Snowcasting feat allows the adding of the cold descriptor
The Flashfrost spell metamagic makes any area spell with the cold descriptor deal 2 cold damage to everything in the area
Energy admixture metamagic changes adds another descriptor
Born of Three Thunders can be applied to Electricity spells and does a bunch of stuff, the main one being to allow a refflex save
Explosive spell ejects creatures that fail reflex save against spells, dealing d6/10ft moved damage
By applying this to the Locate City spell, which is an area spell with 10 miles/level radius one commits genocide in a Queen-Elsa fashion, and Arcane Thesis can keep the metamagic cost low.

The entire procedure is highly debated, and I do not wish to add to that debate with this thread.

What I do wish for is to see whether and how some of the concepts from this abomination of a TO combo can be adapted to create something useful for your average table.

In my mind, the first order of business is to find a good spell to serve in place of Locate City. Ideally something that actually makes sense, but maybe also adds a little something to the whole shabang. Lets say we use Control Temperature instead. It's a 20 ft/level emanation that already has the cold descriptor, moves with you and lasts hours/level. Flashfrost should make it so that everything that comes to be within the area takes the damage and has to make the appropriate saves or be expelled from the emanation, taking quite some damage. I've only eye-balled this application, so there might be holes that make this unworkable, and I'm not even sure when the born-of-three-thunders save(s) would be needed, but hey, it's something; and if it works this might be an effective yet not-insane thing. Also, I love the image of a massive ball of horribleness steam-rolling enemies to death for hours on end.

The other thing is to make the whole trick not complete mass-murder. The only thing I've found is the Purify Spell metamagic, which should makes it so that good creatures get a free pass and neutral creatures only take half damage. It's better than just indiscriminately murdering everything, but obviously not perfect.

So yeah, those are my two coppers. I'd be much obliged if people were to share their ideas for taking this fun concept and applying it in a sane manner. I only ask that you do not let this thread descend into an other argument over the original locate city bomb.

[Know(Nothing)]

The Nonlethal Substitution feat from BoED and CompArc would cover it. Requires further metamagic reduction(for some reason) but otherwise should just leave a pile of unconscious creatures around the perimeter of the spell area.

[Brova]

Minor tangent - Does a Flash Frost spell deal the 2 points of cold damage every round of its duration? If so, a Flash Frost Fell Drain control temperature seems incredibly cool.

[Gabrosin]

The Nonlethal Substitution feat from BoED and CompArc would cover it. Requires further metamagic reduction(for some reason) but otherwise should just leave a pile of unconscious creatures around the perimeter of the spell area.

Not sure on the RAW, but it seems to me that the ejection damage from Explosive Spell is a property of physics, not of the spell, and might not be eligible for Nonlethal Substitution.

You could pull this trick with Obscuring Snow and take that feat that lets you see through it. Much smaller area, but it lasts for an hour per level and provides you with concealment bonuses against ranged attacks.

[Jowgen]

The Nonlethal Substitution feat from BoED and CompArc would cover it. Requires further metamagic reduction(for some reason) but otherwise should just leave a pile of unconscious creatures around the perimeter of the spell area.

Oh, well that works rather well. And the BoED version doesn't even increase level (not that it matters if Arcane Thesis is in effect). Wouldn't work on things immune to Non-lethal, but it's not the worst of trade-offs.


Minor tangent - Does a Flash Frost spell deal the 2 points of cold damage every round of its duration? If so, a Flash Frost Fell Drain control temperature seems incredibly cool.

That is a most excellent question. Hmmmm... The balance aspect of flash-frost triggers whenever something tries to move through the area, one could rule that that is when the damage and/or saves from born of three thunders would trigger. Fell Drain could combo well. The entire thing would basically be that scene from the third X-men movie where Logan is being torn apart while walking towards Jean. A rather serious "don't you friggin come near me" type thing.

Alternatively, the Control Temperature spell itself induces different temperature bands, which can force saves and damage, so it might be tied to that. In this case, it would be a save & damage whenever the temperature demands it, which is dependent upon how hot/cold one can make it and what kind of protection the creatures in the area have. In effect, the whole effect would scale and never be 100 % accurate, so that would leave the whole thing rather balance imo

[Jowgen]

Not sure on the RAW, but it seems to me that the ejection damage from Explosive Spell is a property of physics, not of the spell, and might not be eligible for Nonlethal Substitution.

You could pull this trick with Obscuring Snow and take that feat that lets you see through it. Much smaller area, but it lasts for an hour per level and provides you with concealment bonuses against ranged attacks.

DM could rule either way, but by RAW I think the explosive spell damage gets attributed to the spell, so it should work.

Obscuring Snow has "Effect:" rather than "Area:", so I think by raw it doesn't qualify for Flashfrost Spell.

[Brova]

That is a most excellent question. Hmmmm... The balance aspect of flash-frost triggers whenever something tries to move through the area, one could rule that that is when the damage and/or saves from born of three thunders would trigger. Fell Drain could combo well. The entire thing would basically be that scene from the third X-men movie where Logan is being torn apart while walking towards Jean. A rather serious "don't you friggin come near me" type thing.

I'm inclined to suspect it works that way as well. In that case, it becomes one of the best spells in the game for killing hordes of monsters. For a 4th level slot (assuming arcane thesis or the Incantatrix capstone), you can put a negative level a round on everyone within a couple hundred feat. And more than one stacks. That seems very good, especially with an hour/level duration. Imagine a 9th level Wizard casting four or five of those, preparing spells again, then going out to adventure. Nasty.

[Jowgen]

I'm inclined to suspect it works that way as well. In that case, it becomes one of the best spells in the game for killing hordes of monsters. For a 4th level slot (assuming arcane thesis or the Incantatrix capstone), you can put a negative level a round on everyone within a couple hundred feat. And more than one stacks. That seems very good, especially with an hour/level duration. Imagine a 9th level Wizard casting four or five of those, preparing spells again, then going out to adventure. Nasty.

So as is, we have the following. Flashfrost Spell and Fell Drain by themselves already make a powerful combo on this, which would be geared towards just killing things in range. Adding Adamixture, Born of Three Thunders and Explosive would add regular damage and make it near impossible for things to close the distance, even if they're immune to the Fell Drain. Replacing Fell Drain with Non-lethal substitution makes it a regular damage thing that can be used without collateral damage.

The question on when everything triggers is an important/tricky one though. If I'm reading Control Temperature right, then it forces you to save against the effects of the new temperature immediately upon casting; after which the temperature saves happen normally. With that, you'd get one immediate load of things being affected upon casting; which I think fits with the imagery at least. The flashfrost balance thing triggers upon movement, which has the fun aspect of making it so that it's in the best interest of everyone and everything to stand the frigg still. Could be a very fun gun-point negotiating tactic. I think a reasonable DM would exclude flying creatures in this case though, as they wouldn't need to balance.

Overall, I think it powerful but not cheesily so, in any case.

[ShurikVch]

Energize Spell [Metamagic] (Libris Mortis): 150% damage to Undead, but 50% damage to all other targets.

[Jowgen]

Energize Spell [Metamagic] (Libris Mortis): 150% damage to Undead, but 50% damage to all other targets.

Interesting. If combined with Purify Spell then Neutral targets would only take 25% of the regular no fell/nonlethal version. 12.5 if they make the save. Other than that, I don't think it has much use.

Just realized -might have been obvious- that the complete Three-thunder adamixtured version of the spell would be Sonic, Cold and Electric in it's descriptor; which gives a whole lot of angles to increase the spell's caster level and thus the range of the cloud. That is nice, as every extra caster-level translates into an extra 2d6 damage from explosive spell at expulsion (provided there is free space).

EDIT: Oh, and Fire as well arguably; since Control Temperature originally had that as well. Okay. I want to find a way to tack Acid onto there as well. I want that complete set of elemental descriptors. Please, tell me someone happens to know a way to fit that in, I don't care it doesn't serve a purpose :smallbiggrin:

[Red Rubber Band]

For a more "ethical" spell you could add Fell Frighten, and some levels of Dread Witch*/Nightmare Spinner**.

People are shaken, they take nonlethal damage, fear descriptor on spells, yada yada yada. If the effects continue people would want to leave the area, saving you the effort of genocide/mass murder. Who wants to stay in such a scary place?

Now you just need a spell so that you can fit in Shadowcraft Mage.

* I figure that Locate City doesn't have a visual component, but if you're Flashfrosting it I don't find it unreasonable that there may be some kind of mist appears. Or with spells like Control Weather/Temperature that there is a visual cue that something strange is happening.
** Assuming DM counts the Flashfrosted spell as a spell that deals damage.

Obviously hinges a lot on the DM. And some people may end up with PTSD.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Minor tangent - Does a Flash Frost spell deal the 2 points of cold damage every round of its duration? If so, a Flash Frost Fell Drain control temperature seems incredibly cool.
I see what you did there :smallbiggrin:

[ShaneMRoth]

So, the Flash Frost feat does two points of extra damage per caster level to each target of the spell...

Okay...

One...

SRD (The Basics)

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll.


If there is no die roll for damage in the first place, there is no extra damage, either.

So, there's that.

Two...

What is the Target of the Locate City spell?

There is no target.

Look very closely at the stat block for the spell.

No target, no damage.

By RAW.

That seems ethical to me.

[Closet_Skeleton]

What is the Target of the Locate City spell?

There is no target.


While no DM should ever allow locate city bombs anyway, you're misusing the definition of target in area effect spells.

Area effect spells are targeted at points on the ground, but effect anything in the area.

Ray of Frost or Enervation and most damage spells in general don't have a target listed in its stat block either, by your logic Flash Frost is almost entirely useless. Letting players take badly written feats and then ruling them to be useless is not ethical DMing.

[gomipile]

If there is no die roll for damage in the first place, there is no extra damage, either.

Sonic Snap deals one point of damage. Would you argue that it and other spells which do an amount of damage not determined by a die roll cannot have bonus damage added to them?



What is the Target of the Locate City spell?

There is no target.

Look very closely at the stat block for the spell.

No target, no damage.

By RAW.


Neither Fireball nor Lightning Bolt have a target line in their descriptions. Would you argue that neither of them ever deals damage?

[Glorius Nippon]

The entire procedure is highly debated, and I do not wish to add to that debate with this thread.

What I do wish for is to see whether and how some of the concepts from this abomination of a TO combo can be adapted to create something useful for your average table.



I know that derailings happen all the time on this forum, but come on guys. OP said specifically not to.

[ShaneMRoth]

by your logic Flash Frost is almost entirely useless.

By RAW, Flash Frost is entirely useless when attached to a Divination spell.

As is, SnowCasting.

The description for Snowcasting states that it doesn't change the nature of the spell.

As a matter of fact, no feat does.

You can add a Cold Descriptor to a Divination spell, but it still remains in the Divination School.


Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells.

For a spell to do any of the crap that this allegedly RAW-legal atomic brain fart is supposed to allow, you have to pretend that the feat changes the School of the Spell.

It doesn't.

Ethics, folks.

[Brookshw]

By RAW, Flash Frost is entirely useless when attached to a Divination spell.

As is, SnowCasting.

The description for Snowcasting states that it doesn't change the nature of the spell.

As a matter of fact, no feat does.

You can add a Cold Descriptor to a Divination spell, but it still remains in the Divination School.



For a spell to do any of the crap that this allegedly RAW-legal atomic brain fart is supposed to allow, you have to pretend that the feat changes the School of the Spell.

It doesn't.

Ethics, folks.

Could you please start a new thread if you wish to debate this?

[ShaneMRoth]

Could you please start a new thread if you wish to debate this?

Your point is well taken. I'm backing off now.

[Chronos]

Personally, I've always thought that the Explosive Spell part is rather redundant. Yeah, it does a ton of d6... if the target is outdoors, with an unbroken line to the nearest edge of the spell, and if it fails not one but two saves against a first-level spell's DC. Realistically, the only things that are going to be killed by that are low-level nobodies, and they'd likely be killed by the initial two points (or four, if admixed) of cold damage (just cast it multiple times if needed).

[mabriss lethe]

Ethical: hmmm....

On a related tangent, you could always make it an earthbound city-bomb for what would arguably be the worst idea for a land mine ever.

[gomipile]

Ethical: hmmm....

On a related tangent, you could always make it an earthbound city-bomb for what would arguably be the worst idea for a land mine ever.

I don't know what you mean. Is Earthbound a feat or spell or something in 3.5?

[mabriss lethe]

I don't know what you mean. Is Earthbound a feat or spell or something in 3.5?

Earthbound is a metamagic feat from....champions of ruin, i think. Basically, you pick a 5 foot square of ground when you cast the spell. The next creature to touch the square in the next hour triggers the spell.

[Rubik]

I rather like the idea of subbing a Permanencied Detect Magic for Locate City. Instant blastification any time you concentrate, AND it detects magic!

[Jowgen]

Ah, good, looks like we're back on track. :smallsmile:

I've returned from the Q&A thread. There was disagreement on flashfrost spell on control temperature. Someone argued that the base spell needs to deal damage for it to work. Someone else disagreed. I took the position that control temperature does deal damage.

I now believe that a flashfrost control temperature deals extra damage whenever a creature is damaged due to the magical changes in temperature band. That is when fell drain, frighten and all the other goodies we can add on apply. I think this reading should fly at most tables without problem, unless a DM wishes to treat the temperature-damage as separate from the spell that induced the new temperature by magically heating/cooling the environment.

This presents a new challenge. Different temperature bands deal their damage (with or without save depending) at different intervals of continued exposure. I personally think that control temperature requires a creature to save immediately against the new temperature's hazards, but a DM might feel different. So, in order for this (good name needed) all to work as envisioned even under strict readings, we need one thing:

Boost the CL of Control Temperature high-enough for temperature to reach at least Unearthly Heat level, so that save and damage occur every round. Control temp changes by 1 band per 5 caster levels, and the bands are: Unearthly Cold - Extreme Cold- Severe Cold - Cold - Moderate - Warm - Hot - Severe Heat - Extreme Heat - Unearthly Heat - Burning Heat. If things are nice and it's warm, we thus need a caster level of 20.

So, other than circle-magic, anyone have any good ideas for how to get there?

@Chronos: I can see what you mean with the explosive spell part. For the original locate city bomb, it was a great way towards mass-scale destruction; but once we move onto a tactical scale, the lack of reliability and flexibility really dampens the effectiveness. :smallannoyed:

@mabriss lethe: We're trying to get something ethical, not develop weapons for the war to end all wars. :smallamused:

@Rubik: That... seems like a rather effective way of going about it, if it works. The relevant questions would be whether detect magic can still be perma'd when it's been metamagiced (probably), whether a DM is cool with letting flashfrost spell apply to divinations and other stuff that don't deal no damage.

[Rubik]

@Rubik: That... seems like a rather effective way of going about it, if it works. The relevant questions would be whether detect magic can still be perma'd when it's been metamagiced (probably), whether a DM is cool with letting flashfrost spell apply to divinations and other stuff that don't deal no damage.Make sure you add in Sculpt Spell, Enlarge Spell, and Widen Spell to massively improve the versatility of Detect Magic, as well as decrease the likelihood of friendly fire.