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Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 12:41 AM
I really enjoy playing casters, particularly arcane casters. However, I am having a hard time with the flavor of wizard like spell users. Think about it. Let's say I am a wizard. I have devoted my life to studying the laws of magic and complex thaumaturgical theory (hence the high int). The benefit of this extensive knowledge of the fabric of the universe is...I can do some very specific and limited tricks by completing arbitrary recipes and saying funny words. WHAT? Let me get this straight, I have spend years of study in order to be able to memorize specific rituals? That should take a few weeks, tops! There doesn't seem to be a mechanic in DnD that represents actually having magical power, and I find this frustrating.

How does it make sense that magical powers can only be released in weirdly specific and artificial ways. It seems like magic in general should work more like prestigitation and levitation and the like. You know, cast a spell and lo and behold, you can achieve magical effects within a certain power range!

I mean come on, bat poop and chanting to make a fireball of a precise size? Exactly what about the "theory of magic" necessitates that nonsense.

Machete
2007-05-01, 12:47 AM
Have you looked into warlocks and binders? That is more, "hey I've got unlimited use of reasonable powers" flavor.

Then again. It is magic and swordchucks and 3 arrows being shot in 6 seconds.

Terraneaux
2007-05-01, 12:48 AM
Study chemistry. It's basically as you described.

Wizard magic is basically scientific; FR aside, it's not about this fruity 'art' stuff, and you can always research your own spells if you don't have one that does what you need.

McDeath
2007-05-01, 12:57 AM
Well, you could look at it as you've been learning the laws of magic, and all your spells are created by you - that could take years.

Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 12:58 AM
Chemistry works very differently than the concept of spells. The point of chemistry is to understand why chemical compounds act the way they do. It is a predictive science.

Spells, on the other hand, are more like only learning how to make a select few mixtures of increasing complexity. Ok you can make a certain solution, but you can't dilute it, increase its potency, selectively alter its viscosity, etc.

Spells are like the Ikea of magic. Follow the instructions, get a bed. One would expect wizards to be carpenters.

Warlocks are a little better, because they can simply do random weird stuff because they are possessed by demons or what have you, but they are the opposite of what caster flavor should really be.

Jasdoif
2007-05-01, 01:13 AM
Spells, on the other hand, are more like only learning how to make a select few mixtures of increasing complexity. Ok you can make a certain solution, but you can't dilute it, increase its potency, selectively alter its viscosity, etc.Umm...how would you describe the various varieties of metamagic feats and abilities, then?

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-01, 01:18 AM
Well, it's very likely you can change the flavor on the warlock if that's what you want. Depending on the game of course.

But as for wizards...first, remember that they can develop new spells. It just isn't the sort of thing adventuring wizards do all the time because it's enormously time consuming.

Second...don't think of it as modern chemistry, though my contact with that has suggested there's a pinch of bat guano and sulfur involved there too. Think of it as early chemistry. When Alfred Nobel was mixing all kinds of substances with Nitroglycerin hoping to stabilize it (and ultimately settling on an obscure german soil) to invent Dynamite, say.

As for the training, that's where they 'chemistry' analogy breaks down. Anyone can manipulate chemical reagents, whether or not they have any idea what they're doing. To manipulate the stuff of magic takes specialized mental training and systematic preparation. Unless you're a sorcerer...anyones guess how that works.

Machete
2007-05-01, 01:20 AM
Perhaps on some level magic makes sense to wizards like math with bat poop, tiny pieces of string, and unicorn blood. Also chanting and hand motions.

"No no no. Poop plus the Pop and Lock plus the third verse of Iron Man equals Fireball not Black Tentacles!"

TheOOB
2007-05-01, 01:21 AM
Keep in mind that most of training time for any caster isn't so much learning the rituals as it is perfecting your ability to channel magic. Any character with enough ranks in spellcraft could look through a wizards spellbook and learn the ritual to cast time stop, but only a very experianced wizard is able to gather the magical energies neccesary to acually prepare the spell.

Think of magic as any other field, you can spend a month studying a certain style of swordsmanship, and learn off all the stances and techniques it used, but it will take you years in order master those techniques to the point where they can be useful in combat agienst a skilled opponent. It would be the same with magic, but instead of learning to use a sword, you are learning to channel an extreamly powerful, intangible, and unpredictable force.

Yes it takes a lot of training to become a level 1 wizard, but think of what a level one wizard can do. A level 1 wizard can cast any level 0 or 1 spell, and barring outside interfearance, never fail, even while under stress.

Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 01:21 AM
It should not take special training for a character who is a master of the laws of magic to make fire in a cone instead of a ball.

Metamagic feats are just different recipes, or rather, sort of a dressing you can apply to existing ones.

A mundane example from another craft:

"Well, I know how to make a four layer chocolate cake."
"OK here is some training! Now you can add sprinkles to all cakes."
"Do I know how to make a two layer cake?"
"Nope!"
"Well, I'm glad I have been devoting all this time to cake making, and yet have somehow managed to only learn how to produce particular cakes, rather than actually learning how to bake."

In fact, metamagic doesn't make any sense at all, because it confuses the issue. Apparently, the laws of magic are so fickle that wizards must study for years in order to produce like 5 specific effects, but they can use a feat to apply the same modification to all of those disparate effects that took years to learn to do?

Also, look at how wizards learn spells. Apparently, it only takes them a lifetime of study because they are too foolish to go to the library and COPY DOWN SOME MORE SPELLS. It's pretty silly.

Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 01:24 AM
Keep in mind that most of training time for any caster isn't so much learning the rituals as it is perfecting your ability to channel magic. Any character with enough ranks in spellcraft could look through a wizards spellbook and learn the ritual to cast time stop, but only a very experianced wizard is able to gather the magical energies neccesary to acually prepare the spell.

Think of magic as any other field, you can spend a month studying a certain style of swordsmanship, and learn off all the stances and techniques it used, but it will take you years in order master those techniques to the point where they can be useful in combat agienst a skilled opponent. It would be the same with magic, but instead of learning to use a sword, you are learning to channel an extreamly powerful, intangible, and unpredictable force.

Yes it takes a lot of training to become a level 1 wizard, but think of what a level one wizard can do. A level 1 wizard can cast any level 0 or 1 spell, and barring outside interfearance, never fail, even while under stress.

But this doesn't make sense! That is like someone studying swordsmanship forever, getting really good at it, and only being able to move his arms in accordance with aquired diagrams.

If a wizard can channel magic, then he should be able to channel magic. As it stands, he can channel magic, but only into oddly precise and arbitrary forms. With poop.

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-01, 01:25 AM
Also, look at how wizards learn spells. Apparently, it only takes them a lifetime of study because they are too foolish to go to the library and COPY DOWN SOME MORE SPELLS. It's pretty silly.
No, actually look at how wizards learn spells. Notice that no amount of copying in the library will allow a wizard below level 3 to cast a second level spell. Any wizard who restricts themselves to the spells they come up with on their own is limiting themselves pointlessly, but that doesn't change the need to gain higher level spell slots.

Machete
2007-05-01, 01:27 AM
I can't wait for the 50 lb. 4.0 edition of the Spell Compedium. Bound in real metal out of necessity.
All arcane spellcasters would need to be nerfed because everyone could get more and a wider variety of spells.

It actually sounds pretty cool ofther than the book of spells taking forever to look through. It'd be close to a form of LARPing at that point.

Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 01:32 AM
No, actually look at how wizards learn spells. Notice that no amount of copying in the library will allow a wizard below level 3 to cast a second level spell. Any wizard who restricts themselves to the spells they come up with on their own is limiting themselves pointlessly, but that doesn't change the need to gain higher level spell slots.

The idea of "spell slots" is what is absurd.

Ok so I need to do this to make fire in a 20 ft radius. Ok cool, now i'll stop time. Neat, ok now for some more fire! Oh what's that? I'm too tired to make fire. Well at least I can call down a meteor. What's that? I need to call a swarm of them or I can't have any? This is stupid, if only I had looked at a different diagram!

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-01, 01:33 AM
But this doesn't make sense! That is like someone studying swordsmanship forever, getting really good at it, and only being able to move his arms in accordance with aquired diagrams.

If a wizard can channel magic, then he should be able to channel magic. As it stands, he can channel magic, but only into oddly precise and arbitrary forms. With poop.
Well, for one consider the spell preparation process. You know, the whole basis of wizardry? It takes a wizard an hour to get their spells for the day assembled for use before they can start casting them. Wizards don't channel magic on the drop of a hat. They employ carefully structured mental exercises and physical props to cause spectacular effects with their ordinary human minds! Remember, anyone with the int score can learn wizardry if they want to...

Also, if you can mix chemicals, maybe you can mix chemicals without having a clue what you're doing. But nearly all results of that do nothing interesting, and the ones that do do something interesting probably kill you. Because you had no way of knowing that beaker was going to explode/dissolve/put out odorless toxic gas.

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-01, 01:38 AM
The idea of "spell slots" is what is absurd.

Ok so I need to do this to make fire in a 20 ft radius. Ok cool, now i'll stop time. Neat, ok now for some more fire! Oh what's that? I'm too tired to make fire. Well at least I can call down a meteor. What's that? I need to call a swarm of them or I can't have any? This is stupid, if only I had looked at a different diagram!
I actually think you can spin it out so that spell slots make perfect sense for a Wizard. Sorcerer is harder.

As for that, you can prepare a Fireball in any spell slot level 3 or up, let's remember. Or a metamagiced fireball if you don't want to be quite so wasteful. If you hate Meteor Swarm so badly you'd rather have a DBF in that slot, you can do that.

(Also, time stop does not in fact stop time at all. It only appears that way subjectively. The wizard in me twitches in pain when someone mistakes that...)

Vyker
2007-05-01, 01:40 AM
If a wizard can channel magic, then he should be able to channel magic.

But what does that mean?

"Channeling magic" has no real clear definition. Some would argue that a wizard is channeling magic every time he casts a spell in the fashion D&D describes.

Can you clear up, what, exactly, you envision "channeling magic" to be like?

Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 01:42 AM
But it's all practical and no theory! Why is it that wizards can only prepare foolishly narrow spells. I get (and actually really like) the idea of "hanging" spells and then just snapping the switch into place. It's the idea that wizards can't prepare a greater variety of spells that is annoying.

If it is just the ability to "mix chemicals" in interesting ways, then it should just be a skill check. It isn't, it's about channeling arcane might. If I can conjure forth enough power to reverse gravity, and I already know how to make a big puddle of grease, I should be able to make the grease write my name in flaming letters, without spending months in painstaking research because I presumably know what I am doing.

Wizard just screams the flavor of knowing how to do magic but not really understanding why it works as it does.

Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 01:44 AM
(Also, time stop does not in fact stop time at all. It only appears that way subjectively. The wizard in me twitches in pain when someone mistakes that...)

I didn't say it was time stop, I said I stopped time, could have been a less powerful researched spell, mr. nitpicker ;)

Also, define time for me. I'll give you a dollar if you can do it without referencing subjective experience.

Finally, that's all well and good, but you have to have already learned those spells from scrolls. You mean to tell me I can make a delayed blast fireball, but I can't make a smaller one. Or one with a different (or no) timer?

Here is an actual suggestion instead of me ranting. I think spells should describe the power level of a particular action, and then the caster, when he prepares it, specifies what it does.

Example: I know how to make firey explosions (3rd level). As a result, I can make a homogenous firey explosion that covers a maximum area of 20 ft. I can shape it however I want, so long as it is a continous blast.

I realize this may not be workable, and that I have mostly been complaining. However, I am mostly looking for flavor related suggestions. Playing a character who studies magic all day with his big strong brain who can only cast pre-set spells seems like playing a mathematician who can only solve problems he has seen before.

Mewtarthio
2007-05-01, 01:53 AM
Think of it this way (and I don't take credit for inventing this Theory of Magic, by the way: It's just the most logical one I've seen):

In order to cast a spell, you must first acquire a sort of pre-spell. We'll call this a "spell template." A spell template is basically the underlying structure of a spell. Magical energy is channelled through these templates, causing the effect of a spell to be generated. It's not a physical object, but rather is an object bound to the spirit of the creature casting the spell. Creatures with spell-like abilities have these templates inborn, a natural part of their life force as a result of magical experimentation, natural evolution, or supernatural creation. They also have the energy necessary to activate these templates, though they generally can only use a template a few times before exhausting their energy resources until they've rested.

Other creatures, such as humans, have no natural templates. They must acquire these templates through one of the methods that will be detailed later. Even when they do acquire said templates, they are unable to use them instinctively, as a creature with spell-like abilities. They must instead go through rituals to channel the spell energy, requiring gestures, incantations, and other objects with which to focus the magic (in some cases, the energy is powerful enough to drain the caster's own energy--XP components). It is possible for the caster to learn how to do what other creatures do instinctively, but this actually requires more energy for the caster (metamagic will be detailed later).

Clerics acquire their spell templates from deities. Deities are quite capable of simply bestowing the spell templates upon their loyal followers, though these templates are only temporary. A trained cleric has a greater reserve of spell energy to channel through the templates, but cannot overcome the fact that the template is unnatural. Once a template is used, it becomes unusable and is effectively destroyed, as it was never more than hastily attached to the cleric's spirit. Of course, sometimes deities choose to integrate the template more permanently with their followers, but that's not the Cleric class, and this only covers core classes. Note Druids and Rangers have similar restrictions.

Wizards have the power to create new spell templates from the ambient magical energies and to attach these templates to their own spirits. They have the same problem as divine prepared casters in that the templates are only temporary, but Wizards face an additional restriction: They have no deities willing to give them new templates. Wizards must design their own templates, storing the instructions within spellbooks. They normally research spells at a slow rate (the spells gained on level up), but spend a lot of time hunting down new spells from scrolls, other wizards, and the like. Additonally, Wizards spend their time performing exercises to strengthen their own spirits, improving their capacity to store and channel spell energy.

Sorcerors are unique. Unlike other casters, they have inborn templates. Unlike most creatures, they can actually find new templates as they age and train. However, the inborn templates of Sorcerors are merely magical or genetic flukes: They have no instincts to use them. Thus, they still must supply the ritualistic components necessary to utilize the template properly. However, the templates aren't expended when they are used, being limited only by the amount of spell energy the Sorceror can channel.

Magic items--at least the spell trigger and spell activation variety--are items with templates attached to them. A scroll already has the spell energy necessary to activate its respective template, though only enough for one activation.

Too tired to continue writing. You get the idea. Maybe I'll post more tomorrow.

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-01, 01:53 AM
But it's all practical and no theory! Why is it that wizards can only prepare foolishly narrow spells. I get (and actually really like) the idea of "hanging" spells and then just snapping the switch into place. It's the idea that wizards can't prepare a greater variety of spells that is annoying.
I don't understand. What sort of variety do you want? They can, with appropriate learning, cast probably more than half of all spells WoTC ever wrote, plus anything you can convince the DM to let you invent by research. They can't prepare that many at a time, and most of the ones they prepare are very narrow in their effects. You could make more flexible spells if you wanted to, but presumably a spell that can duplicate the effects of multiple other spells would be higher level than the highest it can duplicate. Like Shadow Conjuration, or the other few high-flex spells out there.

If it is just the ability to "mix chemicals" in interesting ways, then it should just be a skill check. It isn't, it's about channeling arcane might. If I can conjure forth enough power to reverse gravity, and I already know how to make a big puddle of grease, I should be able to make the grease write my name in flaming letters, without spending months in painstaking research because I presumably know what I am doing.
And I'm pretty sure you can, with Sculpt Spell metamagic. Well, except for the flaming part, since Grease burning is at best debatable.

Prepared, remember? Do you want to take that skill check in your hour of preparation? Oh, wait...you already get to pass that check automatically, because wizards never mis-prepare a spell.

Wizard just screams the flavor of knowing how to do magic but not really understanding why it works as it does.
See my example about Alfred Nobel. He quite literally took nitroglycerin and added all kinds of things to it trying to figure out how to make it solid and stable. Some of them worked out really badly (sawdust). He had some theory, but not enough to give him the answer straight out.

I didn't say it was time stop, I said I stopped time, could have been a less powerful researched spell, mr. nitpicker ;)

Also, define time for me. I'll give you a dollar if you can do it without referencing subjective experience.
Something that altered time for all other people would seem to me logically more powerful than timestop, even if in terms of play balance it was less effective.

Also, time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time). See first paragraph. "A dimension in which events occur in sequence". Awkward, but I'd like to see any definition that isn't.

Kevka Palazzo
2007-05-01, 01:56 AM
If you want a really cool and awesome magic system, just play Ars Magica or Mage: The Awakening.

There is another alternative to the "spend years and years studying this magic" that nobody's mentioned. Perhaps wizards just want magic to seem difficult and time-consuming, thus negating competition. Perhaps all that BS about magic requiring all the goofy components is weird. It would back up Eschew Materials a bit.

Everyman
2007-05-01, 01:57 AM
No no no! No philosophical arguements from you guys! I've had enough of this "What is time" crap from my college courses. No one can win this discussion!

Back on topic, we have to remember that magic in D&D has to use the slots and current rule systems for one reason: to make it feasible for us to use. The lack of "realism" is due to the fact that magic (as defined in D&D) does not exist. We give it limitations, slots, and requirements so the effects magic produces do not get out of hand.

If you must justify spellcasting, I'm afraid you're just going to end up disappointed. After all, D&D is full of circumstances that just don't add up. For example, how is it that a rogue can dodge an explosive fireball in a 3x3x3 room? How does that fighter survive a 100 ft. fall from a cliff? Why, oh why can a ranger can a ranger shoot 3, 4, or even 5 arrows in six SECONDS? Mysteries such as these run like rivers through our minds, eventually eroding the shores of our sanity. Hence, I dam mine up (read: just ignore the silliness).

Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 02:07 AM
Interesting theory Mewtharthio, and I think it is a quasi reasonable explanation for how people seem to do magic.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really fix my problem: no one knows why or how magic works. All magical practicioners are tinkers who just fiddle with stuff until it makes an explosion or what have you, and not a soul knows the theory behind the lightshow.

That sucks.

And Ulz, I am obviously being unclear, sorry. Drawing on my silly cake anology, I do not think wizards need to be able to make tastier food, I just wish they actually knew how to bake, even if the end product was less good than the one three-layer-cake they can learn to make.

Last_resort_33
2007-05-01, 03:56 AM
The magic system is D&D is not perfect. But the thing is, that magic is broken enough as it is. The more flexible something is, especially something as major and powerful as magic. The simple, metagame fact is that without creating a completely huge and incomprehensible book devoted entirely to the magic system, then it'd be too easy for the players just to **** the whole game.

illathid
2007-05-01, 05:09 AM
Interesting theory Mewtharthio, and I think it is a quasi reasonable explanation for how people seem to do magic.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really fix my problem: no one knows why or how magic works. All magical practicioners are tinkers who just fiddle with stuff until it makes an explosion or what have you, and not a soul knows the theory behind the lightshow.


Well when you get right down to it, it's the same way for physics. The difference being that physics are "real", and as such people have studied them much more. Even though this is the case, there are still skeptics (and have been consistently throughout much of recorded history). Hell, a friend of mine is a solipsist!

Mewthario, that explanation seems very Aristotelian. Replace "template" with "form" and it's spot on. Which actually reminds me, I need to start working on my magocracy. I'm going to have it mirror the Republic, only with arch-magi instead of Philosopher-Kings. I wonder if my players will get the reference.

Morty
2007-05-01, 05:10 AM
I don't think I understand your point. Who said wizards don't understand how magic works? They use it, so it's preety sure they do. And really, I can't see what's wrong with wizards using specific spells instead of doing what they want. It's a game after all, magic has to be defined and limited somehow.

Hypothetical
2007-05-01, 05:55 AM
I really enjoy playing casters, particularly arcane casters. However, I am having a hard time with the flavor of wizard like spell users. Think about it. Let's say I am a wizard. I have devoted my life to studying the laws of magic and complex thaumaturgical theory (hence the high int). The benefit of this extensive knowledge of the fabric of the universe is...I can do some very specific and limited tricks by completing arbitrary recipes and saying funny words. WHAT? Let me get this straight, I have spend years of study in order to be able to memorize specific rituals? That should take a few weeks, tops! There doesn't seem to be a mechanic in DnD that represents actually having magical power, and I find this frustrating.

How does it make sense that magical powers can only be released in weirdly specific and artificial ways. It seems like magic in general should work more like prestigitation and levitation and the like. You know, cast a spell and lo and behold, you can achieve magical effects within a certain power range!

I mean come on, bat poop and chanting to make a fireball of a precise size? Exactly what about the "theory of magic" necessitates that nonsense.

Let's take a look at your basic premis....

It only takes a few weeks, at most, to learn how to recognize and understand basic latin. However...it takes years to learn to speak it in such a way as to make offhanded puns without trying, and to form deep and soulfull poetry using it.

Now, take a Wizard. Teach him the basics of Magiceese. Sure, he's going to be able to cast a bunch of 0 level spells without even really trying, but that's the equivilant of being able to say " Good morning, how are you?" in Latin. To learn even more spells, such as Sleep for example, is not going to take much longer. This would be equivilent of being able to hold a five minute conversation with a native Latin speaker without looking like a fool.

However, teaching someone magic, which is not just a bunch of somatic componets but also includes a large library worth of gestures and physical componets, to the point to where they can not only learn new and intersting spells such as Fireball, but also have such a deep understanding of the underlying structure of what they are doing that they can take the time to research and create thier own spells ( Such as my personal favortie Home-Brewed Spell "Just for Feces and Giggles") is the equivilent of going through some 12 years of collage and learning Physics, Chemistry, and Biology at Ph.D. levels. When you graduate, you have a basic knowledge of all of those fields, but it takes time afterwards to learn not only how to apply those fields to the real world, but how to expand on that knowledge. To apply it to the Real World...We are not talking about simple skills like "Cashier, Retail, 4", but about hardcore skills like " Nuclear Physics, Control, Atomic Splitting 8" or "BioChemistry, Biowarfare, 7"

I hope this helps you relate better to the Fantasy world of D&D Magic.

KIDS
2007-05-01, 05:55 AM
Just saying the words and executing correct movement doesn't make one a wizard. When he works on readying or casts a spell, he reaches out to the Weave around. It's like a huge labyrinth he has to navigate through with his mind. If his intelligence and training are not sufficient, he bumps into a wall and loses the spell.

Jorkens
2007-05-01, 06:08 AM
If you want a really cool and awesome magic system, just play Ars Magica or Mage: The Awakening.
Yeah, I played a couple of Old World of Darkness Games (Mage and Changeling, specifically) and they both had magic systems that are closer to what the OP was after. Although their approach requires a certain sort of player - able to come up with varied and useful things to do given rather open ended options and happy to work with the spirit of the rules.

I guess it would be plausible to homebrew some stuff to get more improvisatory casting if you wanted it - new versions of spells trading off a bit of power for more flexibility, higher level versions of spells with metamagic options or nerfing casters' spell slots a bit in exchange for automatic metamagic for instance.

There is another alternative to the "spend years and years studying this magic" that nobody's mentioned. Perhaps wizards just want magic to seem difficult and time-consuming, thus negating competition. Perhaps all that BS about magic requiring all the goofy components is weird. It would back up Eschew Materials a bit.
"The Rite of AshkEnte, quite simply, summons and binds Death. Students of the occult will be aware that it can be performed with a simple incantation, three small bits of wood and 4cc of mouse blood, but no wizard worth his pointy hat would dream of doing anything so unimpressive; they knew in their hearts that if a spell didnīt involve big yellow candles, lots of rare incense, circles drawn on the floor with eight different colours of chalk and a few cauldrons around the place then it simply wasnīt worth contemplating." - Terry Pratchett, of course.

Starsinger
2007-05-01, 07:00 AM
But see, Wizards are spell casters. Spell casters. They aren't manipulators of magic. They cast specific forms of magic, which have specific rules, because they're safe, and because they have not mastered magic. Like space travel or something. Sure, we've landed on the moon, but not Jupiter, or flown to the Crab Nebula or anything, because we haven't mastered space travel to the degree where we can go wherever we want.

Take your baking analogy, you want to know how come your wizard can only bake chocolate cake, by following the directions on the back of the cake mix box. You think your wizard is an adult baker who's spent his entire life baking. But in reality, your wizard is like an 7 year old... sure maybe you can make a cake via the directions on the Pilsbury box, but you can't whip up a bundt cake simply because that's what you want to do.

factotum
2007-05-01, 07:29 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the concept of wizards in D&D is derived from the way magic works in Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" series. In that, spells have such enormous power that a wizard can only memorise a certain number of them, and once they cast one, it is wiped from their memory until they can relearn it. This implies that the training a wizard is required to do in D&D is actually memory training--they are training so they can learn more spells, not training in how magic works and how to manipulate it.

In point of fact, sorcerers make a deal less sense than wizards do--sorcerers are supposed to be manipulating magic through sheer instinct, more or less, yet they are limited to certain spells and cantrips in the same way wizards are. Even more strangely, they get LESS variety in the spells they can cast than a wizard does, not more! If there's any class in D&D that doesn't make sense, it's the sorcerer.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-01, 07:41 AM
Both the baker analogy and the chemist analogy fail to really relate to wizardry, especially the former.

I've baked cakes. A 3-layer cake is not massively harder than a 1-layer. You just stack multiple layers on each other. The analogy with magic would be casting Magic Missile when you are level 12: you get a better effect from a simple spell. More layers, fancier cake, but the technique is basic.

A higher-level spell, on the other hand, would be more like comparing a pound cake with a souffle, or some of the more complicated things you can do with chocolate. It's not just more of the same, it's more advanced techniques that you haven't mastered yet.

Similary, for chemistry, the level 1 equivalent would be something like "baking soda and vinegar make bubbles!" Obviously magic is more complicated than that, requiring years of study. The point is that the level 1 spells are at that level of complexity compared to level 9 spells, which would then be analogous to organic chemistry or something even more complex.

In response to the idea that a wizard should be able to re-design and tinker with his spell effects, I have this to say: he already can do that. It just takes time to research that new effect. Again, both baking and chemistry are not the best analogies. A baker could make an orange pound cake instead of a lemon, very easily. On the fly, even. Magic is more complicated than baking, though.

Again, the analogy is imperfect, but combining grease and reverse gravity into flaming letters would be more like...combining a recipe for muffins and a recipe for flan. You know how to do both, but the techniques and principles are quite dissimilar. With some thought/experimentation, you could do it. But on the fly? Not so much.

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-01, 09:14 AM
Unfortunately, it doesn't really fix my problem: no one knows why or how magic works. All magical practicioners are tinkers who just fiddle with stuff until it makes an explosion or what have you, and not a soul knows the theory behind the lightshow.

That sucks.
A setting in which the theory behind the lightshow were well understood would probably tend toward extremely high magic, because if nothing else spell development would be enormously easier. And probably spells would be more efficient also, since higher theory tends to help that way. Being a research wizard at heart, I love the idea, but it's miles from anything D&D is intended to handle...and I suspect that everyone with the brains for it would be a wizard, because even if you aren't cut out for research, not using all that near-technology would be really dumb.

You would very likely want a different game system for a setting like that, though I couldn't guess which one.

And Ulz, I am obviously being unclear, sorry. Drawing on my silly cake anology, I do not think wizards need to be able to make tastier food, I just wish they actually knew how to bake, even if the end product was less good than the one three-layer-cake they can learn to make.
There are some ways for the Wizard to, if not 'know how to bake', at least greatly expand their flexibility. Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation technically imitate the effects of other spells, but since you don't have to know those spells you could theoretically use them to replicate the effect of any spell of comparable power/complexity whether or not that spell has ever been researched.

The other thing is that, really, 'knowing how to bake' isn't what you want, and it doesn't work like with magic. Baking is a very stable process, in general. Fairly drastic deviations in what you do (mixing time, cook temp/time, quantity of some ingredients, etc.) have subtle or no impact on the final product. Magic usually is regarded as a very delicate and unstable process, where...well, if you feed the fireball spell bird droppings instead of bat, you're lucky if it just fails harmlessly. If, as you put it, you try to make a two layer cake by taking the components of the four-layer cake and naively putting them in two pans instead of four, maybe the partitioning fails. Or the cakes exceed critical mass and explode in the oven. Or you can't even slap together a way to separate the batter two ways instead of four without thinking about it and running some tests, because it's twistier than it sounds.

That's how I see it, anyway. It might be interesting to hack up rules for field-expedient spell development, though. I suspect they'd involve a lot of horrific accidents to the point that no sane person would go near them, but even so...

Dausuul
2007-05-01, 10:29 AM
The simplest comparison, to me, is computer programming, on a really finicky and non-intuitive computer system called "reality" that you don't have legitimate access to, so you have to hack it every morning. Once you hack into it, you set up back doors that trigger certain specific routines when you issue the commands. Each time you use a particular back door, though, the sysadmin notices and deletes it, and you have to set it up again.

You can, through years of diligent labor, implement your own routines, but it ain't easy.

TheElfLord
2007-05-01, 01:02 PM
Mewthario, that explanation seems very Aristotelian. Replace "template" with "form" and it's spot on. Which actually reminds me, I need to start working on my magocracy. I'm going to have it mirror the Republic, only with arch-magi instead of Philosopher-Kings. I wonder if my players will get the reference.

Actually, the forms and The Republic are the work of Plato, not Aristotle.

As to the OP, I agree with what some other people posted that you should look at a different system such as Mage: The Ascension. It is set up to meet almost all your requests and requirments.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-01, 01:37 PM
If you look at the Epic book it explains a lot of these things. Basically, sub-Epic magic is using pre-existing recipes that are known to work. Metamagic is an advanced form of magic (hence higher spell slots) that can edit the recipes but only in certain ways. A metamagic specialist knows that the longer he puts the cake in the oven the more burnt it will be but no matter how much he fiddles with the heat dial that cake will not be an orangutan.

Then once you start playing with Epic magic then everything opens up. You start to undertand the seeds that can be put together to make spells. If normal magic is putting electrons through circuits then Epic magic is messing about with quarks.At Epic levels you can do whatever you want. However it takes time. You can't spontaneously make stuff up because you don't know how it works.

In my personal campaign setting I rationalise spells by saying that there was once an ancient godlike culture that had complete control over the material world. They had a slave race from which modern humanoids are decended and decided to teach their slaves some of their power. Since their slaves had lesser intellect and they only wanted their slaves to perform predeterimed roles they only taught the slaves specific combinations that would give a single effect.

Then the superior race died out, their knowledge was destroyed and the slave races were left with pieces of knowledge. Wizards don't understand magic since they only have access to the few spells that were designed to be used by the intellectually inferior slaves. Some Wizards can create new spells but taking apart existing spells and putting them together while others have learnt metamagic. However none of them really understand magic and are forced to experiment until they come out with a working spell. Epic Wizards however have vastely increased intelligence and are able to start breaking down magic completely and get back to the level of the long lost race.

Cade Shadow
2007-05-01, 02:46 PM
I don't think I understand your point. Who said wizards don't understand how magic works? They use it, so it's preety sure they do. And really, I can't see what's wrong with wizards using specific spells instead of doing what they want. It's a game after all, magic has to be defined and limited somehow.

People use many things every day without understand how they work. do you think your average cubicle worker knows how their computer works? or teh average taximan how their cab works?

We don't even understand most of the rules that govern our lives: physics, namely.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-01, 04:09 PM
It should not take special training for a character who is a master of the laws of magic to make fire in a cone instead of a ball.
Just consider the workings of magic as deeply chaotic, with no independent variables (components, rituals, etc) and with only very narrow regions in the variable space producing viable spells.

There is no Area variable to manipulate to create another spell, the moment you change anything about a spell everything changes. Finding a slight variation on an existing spell is no easier than finding a completely new spell, it's a long exhaustive search of input variables which you put into a process of which you only have the most rudimentary understanding.

As for the OPs surprise why it should take training to use higher level spells ... go read some Jack Vance Dying Earth novels.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 04:24 PM
I really enjoy playing casters, particularly arcane casters. However, I am having a hard time with the flavor of wizard like spell users. Think about it. Let's say I am a wizard. I have devoted my life to studying the laws of magic and complex thaumaturgical theory (hence the high int). The benefit of this extensive knowledge of the fabric of the universe is...I can do some very specific and limited tricks by completing arbitrary recipes and saying funny words. WHAT? Let me get this straight, I have spend years of study in order to be able to memorize specific rituals? That should take a few weeks, tops! There doesn't seem to be a mechanic in DnD that represents actually having magical power, and I find this frustrating.

How does it make sense that magical powers can only be released in weirdly specific and artificial ways. It seems like magic in general should work more like prestigitation and levitation and the like. You know, cast a spell and lo and behold, you can achieve magical effects within a certain power range!

I mean come on, bat poop and chanting to make a fireball of a precise size? Exactly what about the "theory of magic" necessitates that nonsense.

Your tricks are only as limited as you want them to be. For example, a Wizard who knows the Fireball spell, which allows you to deal 1d6/CL up to 10d6 in a 20-foot burst up to the range of 400 ft. +40 ft./CL, might not cast it as a fire ball at all.

It might be a wave of superheated air, actually. It might involve flames rising up from the ground in a volcano-like eruption or a creature(s) spontaneously exploding in flame. It will, however, deal 1d6/CL points of damage and will also have the range of 400 ft. +40 ft./CL. But it's only a fire ball if you want it to be. The mechanics won't care a bit.

Yes, this is sort of a house rule I guess, rather than an actual written variant, but it's not as if it's difficult to apply. As I've said, the mechanics won't care a bit.

Pirate_King
2007-05-01, 04:26 PM
In point of fact, sorcerers make a deal less sense than wizards do--sorcerers are supposed to be manipulating magic through sheer instinct, more or less, yet they are limited to certain spells and cantrips in the same way wizards are. Even more strangely, they get LESS variety in the spells they can cast than a wizard does, not more! If there's any class in D&D that doesn't make sense, it's the sorcerer.

Sorcerors make enough sense, think of them as sort of magic savants, able to perform magical calculations without thinking. They're limited because they don't study a bunch of different forms of magic, they just pick things up as they see them, or as inherent powers manifest. Maybe the difference could be active versus passive learning, and the sorcerors sort of inborn sense of magic lets them instinctively play with whatever materials, where as wizards learned what they can do with materials by study. Maybe dance is another good analogy of the difference, a sorceror being a person with a natural sense of rythm and good at doing what he or she sees, and a wizard being a person who studied several different forms of dance. The wizard will know all these different forms, but will have to review or practice a particular set of steps for whatever the evening calls for, and the sorceror is just going to follow his or her gut and call it as she sees it.

As for the original topic, I think evil socrates wants something that's more like the benders from Avatar. Firebenders have power over fire, they can manipulate it in just about any way they want to, same with the other three elemental benders. D&D magic isn't like that, spell casters don't have power over magic, magic is a force and a resource that they can use to their advantage, but being able to manipulate it completely is a power that I think casters strive for, but none can truly accomplish; it's a power for the gods.

Lemur
2007-05-01, 04:53 PM
The simplest comparison, to me, is computer programming, on a really finicky and non-intuitive computer system called "reality" that you don't have legitimate access to, so you have to hack it every morning. Once you hack into it, you set up back doors that trigger certain specific routines when you issue the commands. Each time you use a particular back door, though, the sysadmin notices and deletes it, and you have to set it up again.

You can, through years of diligent labor, implement your own routines, but it ain't easy.

Seems apt enough to me. The fact that "computer wizard" is a commonly understood term indicates that ordinary people see computer science as an almost arcane system of methods. People may see computers every day, but they don't really understand what's going on.

That said, I don't see why casting, or magic has to make sense at all. It's frikkin' magic. If it made sense, than anyone could do it, don't you think? The Vancian system wouldn't be my first choice if I was making a game system, but that's not the point here.

Does it really matter if the rules for magic in D&D makes sense? If you don't like the flavor given to it, you can change it. If you don't like the mechanics of it, there are other things, like psionics or incarnum, or for that matter, homebrewed systems to look into.

Hallavast
2007-05-01, 05:39 PM
Your tricks are only as limited as you want them to be. For example, a Wizard who knows the Fireball spell, which allows you to deal 1d6/CL up to 10d6 in a 20-foot burst up to the range of 400 ft. +40 ft./CL, might not cast it as a fire ball at all.

It might be a wave of superheated air, actually. It might involve flames rising up from the ground in a volcano-like eruption or a creature(s) spontaneously exploding in flame. It will, however, deal 1d6/CL points of damage and will also have the range of 400 ft. +40 ft./CL. But it's only a fire ball if you want it to be. The mechanics won't care a bit.

Yes, this is sort of a house rule I guess, rather than an actual written variant, but it's not as if it's difficult to apply. As I've said, the mechanics won't care a bit.

To expand upon this idea, I'll just say that this is what metamagic is for. They change what your limited spell selection can do. If your spells are too narrow or specific, then you can change them with metamagic. If you want a larger fireball, widen it. If you want a lightning bolt that reaches through other planes, then use transdimentional spell. If you want a "cone of cold" to do acid damage instead, then take energy substitution.

Adding metamagic to your spells makes them more flexible and useful for different situations. It's probably the most progressive way of shaping magic to do what you want without breaking the game completely.

Evil_Socrates
2007-05-01, 06:25 PM
Actually, the forms and The Republic are the work of Plato, not Aristotle.


I think he was talking about Aristotle's theory of formal cause, not the Forms.

Also, thanks for your feedback everyone. I like the computer science but much harder and more arbitrary anology. Pre-written spells would be like using pre-existing fuctions I suppose.

PirateMonk
2007-05-01, 06:38 PM
Just consider the workings of magic as deeply chaotic, with no independent variables (components, rituals, etc) and with only very narrow regions in the variable space producing viable spells.

There is no Area variable to manipulate to create another spell, the moment you change anything about a spell everything changes. Finding a slight variation on an existing spell is no easier than finding a completely new spell, it's a long exhaustive search of input variables which you put into a process of which you only have the most rudimentary understanding.

As for the OPs surprise why it should take training to use higher level spells ... go read some Jack Vance Dying Earth novels.

Basically what I was thinking. Making a subtle difference in the ritual can produce an entirely different spell. What's the logical consequence of this? Wizards need to have every spell ritual perfectly memorized so they don't mess up. While this could explain the years of study, there's no skill check required to remember it. So maybe wizards must mystically burn rituals into their mind, at the same times as they get the spell template/form/whatever.

A world and magic system where wizards have the understanding of magic that Evil Socrates envisions would be interesting. It would probably require that there already be fairly advanced technology (late Industrial period at least) when magic came along, or just that magic had been around for so long (without any nasty dark ages to get in the way) that enough knowledge has accumulated to gain an actual understanding of magic.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-01, 07:13 PM
You want a system that allows you to make a spell exactly the way you want on the go? Good luck. Many game systems exist, and no one works perfecly. I'd say that spell slots is one of the less complex to deal with.
And as it was said, it's not just memorizing, it's learning HOW to use it.

Wizard: "I found this scroll. Lemme see.... yes, I understand it now. I can summon into existence a wall made of pure magic energy and solidify it"
Fighter: "What? Lemme see it." *reads scroll* "I see a lot of text and weird words. If I read it out loud, and repeat those funny gestures you do, can I do the same?"
Wizard: *Getting the scroll back* "Don't be silly. Now excuse me, I need to study this diagram and write a copy of the symbols in my spellbook"

It's the same thing as with divine magic. They are not just "getting magic the easy way". They are actually devoting themselves for a cause/deity, and receiving magical power in return.

One house rule we always used is that a caster can use their spells however they want, as long as they don't try to rise the power without the proper feats.
DM: "You want to cast only one meteor instead of 4? Sure, go ahead. Wait, combine the power of the 4 into one to do one single devastating attack? Nopes."

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-01, 07:24 PM
I'm trying to come up with a system that has pionts to say how much you actually know the spell. for fire ball persay, with 1 point you can cast fire ball. but with max, you can make it a 1 inch by 500 yards diamiter, or make it consintrate and only hit one person. of corse in this system, there will be mana.

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-01, 07:39 PM
also, with the mana, if I had a spell like metior swarm, I would make it so that you can chose
"I want 23 metiors"
"you know that will cost all your mana, right"
" I don't care, I just want to kill this guy, and oh ya, there pink and to make up for the extra mana, I get -1 damage on the entire spell."
"ok, you cast "pink metor swarm""

btw,i'm not saying that you should change to mana, I just think it will be a better system (and maby worth all the work)

Mewtarthio
2007-05-01, 07:48 PM
also, with the mana, if I had a spell like metior swarm, I would make it so that you can chose
"I want 23 metiors"
"you know that will cost all your mana, right"
" I don't care, I just want to kill this guy, and oh ya, there pink and to make up for the extra mana, I get -1 damage on the entire spell."
"ok, you cast "pink metor swarm""

btw,i'm not saying that you should change to mana, I just think it will be a better system (and maby worth all the work)

See all the people who didn't notice the manifester level caps on psionic augmentation.

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-01, 07:51 PM
ok, not 32, more like 9.
but a system like that

Stevenson
2007-05-01, 07:55 PM
A mechanic for being magically skilled? Certainly!

Say it with me!

Soooor-cer-ers.

Besides, some wizards haven't spent their whole life studying-there are young wizards. For some reason, people like starting wizards as older folks, at which point it stops making sense.

turtleant120
2007-05-01, 08:01 PM
"No no no. Poop plus the Pop and Lock plus the third verse of Iron Man equals Fireball not Black Tentacles!"
Awsome. Just awsome.
The last thing the monsters will think before they die is why did all the adventures jump out of the way when the skinny guy started singing.

Laesin
2007-05-01, 08:07 PM
Take a look at the GURPS alternate magic rules. The spells take longer to cast and require multiple skill rolls but essentially if you know the right words of power and have access to enough magical energy you can produce any effect. Enough magical power however, can be hard to come by for very powerful effects.

illathid
2007-05-02, 06:35 AM
Actually, the forms and The Republic are the work of Plato, not Aristotle.

Aristotle took Plato's idea of the forms and adapted it. Instead of the forms being a separate from reality they are contained within each thing. He separated them into "Substantial" Forms and "Accidental" Forms.

And I know Plato wrote The Republic, I've read it 5 times (I just love Gen Ed classes /sarcasm). That post was merely a result of stream of thought writing and having to do homework for my pre-renaissance philosophy class.

Matthew
2007-05-02, 09:42 AM
Nah, you're looking at this wrong. It's not that Spell casting makes no sense, it's that magic makes no sense (and rightly so, after all, it is magic).

Still, I don't like the Vancian Spell Slot system much either. Spontaneous Magic Point based casting is my preferred fantasy, but the Wizard and Vancian Spell Casting are well rooted in Dungeons & Dragons and the literature it is based on supports the viewpoint.

okpokalypse
2007-05-02, 09:54 AM
Chemistry works very differently than the concept of spells. The point of chemistry is to understand why chemical compounds act the way they do. It is a predictive science.

Spells, on the other hand, are more like only learning how to make a select few mixtures of increasing complexity. Ok you can make a certain solution, but you can't dilute it, increase its potency, selectively alter its viscosity, etc.

You can decrease your caster level whenever you cast a spell (as a free action) to control damage, range, area, etc... Very few players ever do since there's often minimal benefit to such, but it is possible to control a vast array of effects in ways players often haven't considered.

You want an Acid Storm to do exactly exactly 72 Damage for some reason or another and you're L15. Maximize it as a L12 Caster. You want to control the area of a spell that's 5'/L - then drop your level.

As for increasing potency - that's what Meta-Magic is for. Altering viscosity - while not really applicable in that concept - is not wholly unsimilar to altering Energy Type (Energy Substitution).

My problem with Wizards (and Clerics, Druids, etc..) is memorization. I hate it. I often refuse to play such as it just strikes me as incredibly unrealistic. I'd much rather play Sorcerers, WarMages, Favored Souls, etc.. Even with a limited spell selection. Personally, I think the best magic "system" is the PSP based Manifesting system for Psionics.

Matthew
2007-05-02, 09:56 AM
Unrealistic is a difficult word when used to describe magic. I would go with 'unbelievable' or 'breaks my suspension of disbelief'.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-02, 10:36 AM
Well, scientists and mathmaticians and programmers all can be very skilled, but still have to work in a very structured way, utilizing formulas and such. I figure its more like that.

Corolinth
2007-05-02, 11:23 AM
The solution to your problem: play Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Magic in Buffy works the way you want D&D magic to work.

As for the answer to your question, it's simple. This is a class balance issue. If wizards could cast that way, they'd be sorcerers with an unlimited number of spells known. The drawback to wizards is the tactical aspect. You either have to prepare the right spells ahead of time, or be able to intelligently employ the spells you do have ready. D&D is not designed to balance casters around being able to cast any and all of the spells in the sourcebooks at any given point in time. To balance that, you would have to be required to make a skill check in order to cast any spell, and perhaps suffer increasing penalties to those skill checks as you cast more and more spells.

Swooper
2007-05-02, 12:55 PM
Try thinking of it like this: Casting spells is like using computer programs. You have to learn using each program (spell) seperately. You cannot change the way programs (spells) work because that's simply the way they're coded (researched). However, with some programming knowledge (metamagic feats) of your own, you can do some minor modifications to the program (spell).

How's that for an analogy?

Also, please stop torturing those poor catgirls to death, it's just mean :(

Variable Arcana
2007-05-02, 01:37 PM
To the OP:

Not sure how much sense you want it to make. As to "spell preparation" and "spell slots" -- I like the idea that it doesn't take just a fraction of a six-second round to bend the laws of reality, but rather several minutes of careful preparation of delicate rituals in a clean and quiet environment. The "casting" of the spell is just the triggering of the spell you created that morning.

As to the "these twelve things, and no others" aspect of it -- I like the explanation from Lawrence Watt-Evans' Ethshar books. Wizards manipulate primal chaos to produce all kinds of astounding effects -- but no, they don't really "understand" what they are doing. Primal Chaos is, by its very nature, incomprehensible. There's no good reason why bat guano and sulfur in a certain ritual should let you evoke a spherical region of fire while the same ritual performed with goose guano and sulfer blows your hand off. But past wizard have learned that it does, and tell their apprentices the story to discourage incautious experimentation.

(Watt-Evans' Ethshar is littered with the effects of miscast spells, like a huge pillar of fire which can be seen in the sky for hundreds of miles and has been burning for many generations, or entire species of monster created by a miscast curse...)

Kresalak
2007-05-02, 01:52 PM
If you want to know why material components exist, I'll tell you. They're a joke. A literal joke. With Fireball, you get bat guano and sulfur and you make gun powder, Scrying has you make an archaic battery to power a "specially treated mirror," and Lightning Bolt has you creating static electricity. The reason they don't make sense is because they're not supposed to.