Werewolf Paladin NPC- Fallen or Not?

[Celcey]

Greetings Playgrounders! I have a question for you. The other day I had my party fight a werewolf with her wolf pack, but she got away with the package they were trying to retrieve, so she'll definitely turn up again. But I want your opinion on whether you think she should be an Oathbreaker or she should keep her original Oath, which would be Ancients. Her backstory is thus:

She's a half-elf that neither parent wanted, so she was raised by a nightly order devoted to bringing light to the world. She was always a bit of an outsider there, because she's a half elf, and she was always eager to get out and test her strength. One night she was in a bar and got into an argument with someone advocating for lycanthrope rights, because she felt they were dangerous abominations who should be wiped out. Unfortunately, a werewolf overheard her and took revenge. Her Order Cast her out and tried to kill her. She's made a deal with a shady church that she'll bring them the package if they'll cast remove curse on her to rid her of her lycanthropy.

I'm debating a couple of things, mainly, of course, whether she would count as a fallen or not. She's working with the bad guys, but it's only to cure herself. Is that enough to fall? But if I decide I want her to be fallen (which I think I do) than maybe she just lost faith after her order kicked her out.

Also, I want to modify the stat block to reflect her class and race, but I'm not sure how high a level paladin she should be. (This will, at current, not effect her fighting with the PCs beyond her ability scores, because I'm thinking that she currently rejects her paladin powers out of anger and shame.)

Thoughts, questions, opinions?

[Ralanr]

Well, the moon brings the light of the sun into the night. I don't see why she couldn't keep her oath.

[djreynolds]

I ran a game, long time ago, where the characters had to escort a paladin stricken with lycanthropy. It was an NPC, there are natural shapeshifters, but a werewolf " should" be against nature.

It is a really cool concept, and then think you could embark on some cool missions. Either to rid yourself of this or sanctify it.

Very cool thread. I mean it. You could have this as your ancient form.

[PotatoGolem]

I'd say yes to falling. If she's doing bad things that are against her oath to help herself, she's not very paladin-y. A paladin should place their oath over their own selfish wants, or else it's more a nice idea than an oath.

[EvilAnagram]

In 5e, unless she knowingly committed a specific act that breaks a specific oath she swore in becoming a paladin, she should not fall.

[GiantOctopodes]

Her Oath:

Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy, kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.
Is she planning revenge against her order for casting her out, or does she forgive them? Upon beating the party, was she gloating and did she press the advantage, or did she show mercy?

Shelter the Light. Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.
What is the shady organization she is allied with planning? Is her aid to them justifiably harmless, or does she aid and abet wickedness occurring in an act of selfishness?

Preserve Your Own Light. Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.
Has she given in to despair? Or is she still hopeful, and able to take joy in the beautiful things in life? Despite the affliction of her curse, is she able to appreciate her superior connection to nature, which she reveres and serves, for the time it lasts?

Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in all your deeds.
Has she gone into hiding? Even if she must hide her affliction, does she hide who she is and her deeds? Or does she still stand proudly in the light and have her actions known to all who would take heart from them?

It's definitely possible for her to have become a wereworlf as an Ancients Paladin and not have fallen. It has much more to do with her current attitude and actions than it does her condition. Hope that helps give you some points to think upon. Either she is still bold and brazen, openly and willfully working with the shady organization, knowing it shall not bring ruin upon the land to do so, or she is withdrawn into herself, cowardly and craven, working with the organization careless of the cost to those around her.

[EvilAnagram]

I think this whole situation deserves some deconstruction.


One night she was in a bar and got into an argument with someone advocating for lycanthrope rights, because she felt they were dangerous abominations who should be wiped out.
Well, the Oath of the Ancients demands:


Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy, kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.
That certainly doesn't sound very merciful of her.


Her Order Cast her out and tried to kill her.
Wait, what? The Order of the Ancients, which prizes mercy, tried to kill her for unwillingly becoming a lycanthrope when they have spells capable of curing lycanthropy?


I'm debating a couple of things, mainly, of course, whether she would count as a fallen or not.
Why the hell isn't her entire order fallen?


She's working with the bad guys, but it's only to cure herself. Is that enough to fall?
No, not unless she commits a specific act that flies in the face of one of her oaths.


But if I decide I want her to be fallen (which I think I do) than maybe she just lost faith after her order kicked her out.
Paladins aren't powered by faith. They're powered by devotion to a cause.


Also, I want to modify the stat block to reflect her class and race, but I'm not sure how high a level paladin she should be.
Clearly not high enough to have second level spells.

I think you need to drop the idea that this is an order devoted to the Oath of the Ancients. Oath of Vengeance sounds more likely. Also, she shouldn't have gone back to her order, because a fifth level Paladin can cast Lesser Restoration. All fifth level Paladins can, actually, even Oath Breakers. There's absolutely no reason for them to have driven her out when they could heal her.

A good way around that would be that she journeyed to her order's temple, but then transformed just as she was explaining what happened and killed her mentor. Then, because of their devotion to the Oath of Vengeance, her former brethren turned on her.

[Sigreid]

Stand it on it's head. She hasn't fallen, but for their callousness and failure to protect her light, her order has...

[Ralanr]

Stand it on it's head. She hasn't fallen, but for their callousness and failure to protect her light, her order has...

Oh I like that. It's a twist!

[Mjolnirbear]

Am i mistaken? Don't paladins get immunity to disease? I thought lycanthropy was a disease?

[Ralanr]

Am i mistaken? Don't paladins get immunity to disease? I thought lycanthropy was a disease?

Only after level 3

[GiantOctopodes]

Only after level 3

Which explains too her shame at having been turned. Here's how I see all this playing out:

- A Pack of Werewolves move into an area and begin harassing a nearby town or city.
- Since werewolves are normally chaotic evil, a band of Paladins (order of the Ancients) answers the calls for help, treating it as no different from a Goblin or Troll infestation or any of the other evil, monstrous races.
- A long and bloody campaign is waged, with the lycanthropes mounting unexpected resistance, and causing decimating losses.
- Through a series of magical feints, ruses, and multiple long term infiltrations by the werewolves, they manage to convince the Paladins that their curse is exceptionally strong, and those infected by them cannot be cured through magical means short of a wish spell, much like natural born lycanthropes (in reality, they had managed to convince the paladins certain people were not lycanthropes who were, staged them getting "infected", and then the remove curse failed, it being a natural born lycanthrope). They also manage to eliminate several high ranking members of the order while doing so.
- The Paladins come to see the creature's very nature as subversive, not only eradicating the light of those around them through violence, but infecting innocent people and bolstering their numbers by doing so, in a fashion similar to the undead.
- The years drag on, a full generation passes. Were the Paladins the self evaluative sort, they might have realized their dogmas, practices, and teachings are much closer to an order dedicated to the Oath of Vengeance than the Ancients, but they are so consumed with their grim task they cannot see how lost they are. They still see themselves as defending the land from a plague of monsters.
- The peculiar resilience of this strain of curse having long ago become a well accepted fact, the Paladins have not bothered trying to cure someone infected with the curse in many years. Those they protect see how they cut down anyone infected (lest they risk the person losing control during the full moon and spreading the infection still further) grow uncomfortable with their barbarity, and begin questioning whether the Lycanthropes are really the menace that is claimed, or if the Paladins themselves might not be as dangerous as the creatures they supposedly protect against.
- The bar conversation happens, with the Paladin being overheard by a Werewolf and infected.
- The order decides to cut her down, as they do everyone infected, an act of mercy by bringing a swift end and preventing the person from harming those close to them (as they see it). She flees, ashamed at her weakness (no 'true' Paladin is even capable of being infected after all, that's why they were called in from the start!), ashamed at her cowardice (by the principles of her order she knows that the werewolves are an irredeemable threat and must be put down, and that surely includes her), and ashamed at her foolishness (she knows the texts and stories. She knows that the Remove Curse will not work. Yet she cannot abandon hope, and feels obliged to try).
- She does not use her Paladin powers, believing that she has betrayed everything she believed in. However, she in fact is living up to the true tenants of her faith. What she does not realize is that this act (the attempted killing of one of their own) was the final straw, and her entire Order has fallen. Within their walls, a power struggle now rages between those who embrace the fall, and accept whatever dark turns they feel may aid them in their quest, and those who are struggling to regain sight of the Light and what it is their Order is meant to represent in the first place.

In many ways, her struggle for redemption is mirrored by the struggles of her order for redemption, and her actions, both good and bad, can both mirror and influence the struggle her order itself is having. I don't know, I think it could be fun. I'll point out that if she needs more than 2 levels to support her expected threat level (not that as a Lycanthrope she really does), you can have levels of other classes as well. Perhaps she sought to join them for a while, earning fighter levels before finally being accepted into their ranks, or whatever else.

[EvilAnagram]

Am i mistaken? Don't paladins get immunity to disease? I thought lycanthropy was a disease?

Lycanthropy is a curse, not a disease.

[Celcey]

Her Oath:
Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy, kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.
Is she planning revenge against her order for casting her out, or does she forgive them? Upon beating the party, was she gloating and did she press the advantage, or did she show mercy?

She's ashamed of herself, because she sees herself as an abomination. She also didn't beat the party, she ran.



Shelter the Light. Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.
What is the shady organization she is allied with planning? Is her aid to them justifiably harmless, or does she aid and abet wickedness occurring in an act of selfishness?

She doesn't know what they're planning or what's in the package. She just knows that if she gives them the package they'll cure her lycanthropy, but she also knows that they're shady, so she figures it's probably not good.



Preserve Your Own Light. Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.
Has she given in to despair? Or is she still hopeful, and able to take joy in the beautiful things in life? Despite the affliction of her curse, is she able to appreciate her superior connection to nature, which she reveres and serves, for the time it lasts?

A mix of both, but I think her hope has gone up slightly because she sees the end in sigh. But that's also tempered with the fact that she realizes she's probably helping bad people.



Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in all your deeds.
Has she gone into hiding? Even if she must hide her affliction, does she hide who she is and her deeds? Or does she still stand proudly in the light and have her actions known to all who would take heart from them?

She has gone into hiding, again, because she sees herself as an abomination and a danger to those around her.



It's definitely possible for her to have become a werewolf as an Ancients Paladin and not have fallen. It has much more to do with her current attitude and actions than it does her condition. Hope that helps give you some points to think upon. Either she is still bold and brazen, openly and willfully working with the shady organization, knowing it shall not bring ruin upon the land to do so, or she is withdrawn into herself, cowardly and craven, working with the organization careless of the cost to those around her.

I don't think she's either. She's not evil (and I do ignore the alignment restriction on the OathBreaker). She's just doing something that she knows is wrong in order to cure her lycanthropy. It may be selfish in a way, but I don't know that that makes it wrong.

[Celcey]

That certainly doesn't sound very merciful of her. ... The Order of the Ancients, which prizes mercy, tried to kill her for unwillingly becoming a lycanthrope when they have spells capable of curing lycanthropy? Why the hell isn't her entire order fallen?

In order for my whole story to work, I've decided that it is not common knowledge that you can remove lycanthropy, because I forgot to check the Paladin spell list for remove curse. (It's remove curse, not lessor restoration, so they'd have to be 5th level to cast it, but still- duh, Trisha.)

As for the lack of mercy, as far as they know, being a werewolf automatically makes you evil, the same way devils pr demons are automatically evil. They also see lycanthropes as a desecration of nature which must be eliminated. That's also why she was arguing in the bar; because she truly believed that werewolves were dangerous and naturally evil beings that could not be cured or saved in any way but death. Obviously, that changed when she became one herself.



[She won't fall] unless she commits a specific act that flies in the face of one of her oaths.

Well she did kind of give up on the light, so I think that counts.



Paladins aren't powered by faith. They're powered by devotion to a cause.

Eh, faith in a cause, devotion to a cause, same thing. I definitely want to keep them ancients, though.

@GiantOctopodes: That's an awesome idea. I don't think I'm going to use it, but that's definitely going on my list of things to use when I need a quick plot hook.

[Mjolnirbear]

Only after level 3

I knew that, but it turns out I was incorrect; it is not a disease, it's a curse (as mentioned above). Can't think why I thought it was a disease...

Remove Curse is a level 3 spell. You need to be a level 5 cleric or a high-level paladin to do it. It's not that hard to get access to... I presume that there is a reason she can't find a caster that will help? (edit: okay, I see that post now)

As for falling... my opinion is no. It depends on the player's wishes of course. You can be angry and bitter and still be a paladin (see: paladin of vengeance). A bitter Paladin of the Ancients can still Be and Preserve Her Light with sad music or emo poetry. Joy is wonderful, but beauty does not need to be happy. But this isn't 3rd edition with auto-fall every time the paladin did something that was anything less than pure shining white. Being angry at your order is more grey, not black. She hasn't renounced her oaths; she's going through bitter time, surely, but that's not the same as deliberately choosing to do evil--unless the task she needs to do involves, for instance, killing an innocent child, human sacrifice, or handing the Evilest Guy in the World the Only Artifact He Lacks for World Domination. Grey choices (as opposed to white) don't equal fall.

In other words, it's the player's choice. And I would resent you--a LOT--if you tried to force me into it. Will this player? Who knows. Maybe she likes the idea of being an Oathbreaker Paladin, in which case, go ahead--have her do something unspeakably evil, make the choice clear: you do this, and you will have fallen.

If it's ambiguous, then it's not a clear choice to renounce her oath. And that means she should not fall.

[Sigreid]

It's your table, but it doesn't sound to me like she should have fallen. Reason being, even though she knows she's taking actions that she will likely have to correct after she's cured, the story you're spinning sounds like she's depressed, afraid, and maybe a bit angry; but she hasn't given up yet.

[Celcey]

I will reiterate that this is an NPC, not a PC, although she has become a DMPC. How permanent that will be is to be seen. I think for now she won't have fallen, because relooking at the Oathbreaker I think I'd rather have her stay Ancients, but she doesn't like using her powers because she feels ashamed of them.

[Whyrocknodie]

The way I'd do it is this... if the character is portrayed with the intention of having audience sympathy, retain paladin powers in an angst-ridden way. If the character is not intended to have audience sympathy, oath-breaker paladin.

[Mjolnirbear]

I will reiterate that this is an NPC, not a PC, although she has become a DMPC. How permanent that will be is to be seen. I think for now she won't have fallen, because relooking at the Oathbreaker I think I'd rather have her stay Ancients, but she doesn't like using her powers because she feels ashamed of them.

In that case I owe you an apology. I didn't think it was an NPC.

If you are the DM then the NPC is under your control. YOu may do literally anything with her that you wish, so long as it doesn't ruin the game for the players. :)


EDIT. Of course now I also feel stupid, because it was IN THE BLOODY TITLE. *hangs head* Ummm... yeah, doublesorry.

[Sigreid]

Hopefully this eventually winds up with the paladin being cured, the secret of curing lycanthropy getting out and all's right in her world except for a lingering fondness for chewing on bones and chasing the occasional cat.