PDA

View Full Version : Any way to make Mystic Theurge useful?



Solo
2007-05-01, 01:30 AM
Recently, I suggested that taking a level of wizard w/ Precocious Apprentice, then going cleric for three levels, then going into MT would make a more effective character than Wiz 3/Cleric 3/ MT X, but how well would that work out in a game compared to, say, a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer of the same character level?

deadseashoals
2007-05-01, 02:16 AM
Wizards has ruled that Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for qualifying for PrCs, and if you read carefully, it doesn't work for Mystic Theurge anyway - it says when you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit of the feat and gain a 2nd-level slot that you can use as normal. However, it doesn't specify 2nd-level arcane spells, so basically, you'd become a 3rd-level cleric, and then lose the benefit of the feat. Thus, you'd no longer be able to cast any 2nd-level arcane spells, and would no longer qualify for Mystic Theurge.

Armads
2007-05-01, 05:34 AM
You'd be absolutely terrible compared to a wizard/cleric/sorcerer of the same level, since you'd be 3 caster levels behind for wizard casting. And precocious apprentice doesn't work that way.

The best way to do it would probably be to become an Illumian, take Improved Power Sigil (krau), go wizard 1/Cleric 3 and then become a mystic theurge. However, illumians are extremely cheesy.

InaVegt
2007-05-01, 05:36 AM
The best way would be:

Bard 7/Sublime chord 2/Ur priest 2/Mystic theurge 9/X 1

Talya
2007-05-01, 07:45 AM
You need 10 levels of bard to take sublime chord.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-01, 07:50 AM
You need 10 levels of bard to take sublime chord.Well, you need 10 levels of something, anyway, to meet the 13-rank skill requirements. Doesn't have to be bard, although that's the easiest way for sure. [/nitpick] :smallwink:

Ikkitosen
2007-05-01, 08:10 AM
You'd be absolutely terrible compared to a wizard/cleric/sorcerer of the same level, since you'd be 3 caster levels behind for wizard casting. And precocious apprentice doesn't work that way.

The best way to do it would probably be to become an Illumian, take Improved Power Sigil (krau), go wizard 1/Cleric 3 and then become a mystic theurge. However, illumians are extremely cheesy.

If Illumian cheese is to be allowed then so should Precocious Apprentice cheese. Seriously. Both are not intended to be used this way, but some DMs allow it.

If these thinks are allowed then trading one CL in your primary casting class to get a whole other casting class at a few levels below sounds like a good deal.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-01, 01:52 PM
My favourite Mystic Theurge Build is Ranger 8/Assasin 3/Mystic Theurge 9.

He does qualify you know.

Da Beast
2007-05-01, 02:08 PM
IMO the best mystic theurge build is wizard 3/ druid 3/ mystic theurge 2/ arcane hierophant 10/ mystic theurge 2. You get 9th level spells on both sides, wild shape as a level 13 druid, animal companion/familiar at level 13 (you get to treat one animal as both your companion and familiar) casting in druid armor, and a few other abilities.

Kurobara
2007-05-01, 05:14 PM
IMO the best mystic theurge build is wizard 3/ druid 3/ mystic theurge 2/ arcane hierophant 10/ mystic theurge 2. You get 9th level spells on both sides, wild shape as a level 13 druid, animal companion/familiar at level 13 (you get to treat one animal as both your companion and familiar) casting in druid armor, and a few other abilities.

Yeah, I was about to suggest that one. I really want to play it myself sometime... though for myself I think I'd do it with Wu Jen rather than Wizard just for flavor's sake.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-01, 05:41 PM
mystic theurge is totally useful by itself.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-01, 05:44 PM
practiced spell caster(Arcane) and (Divine) helps with DC's and things like that. A better thing to do is go druid/wizard/arcane heriophant/mystic theurge....with the above feats. Thing will beat you down with natueral spell.

NullAshton
2007-05-01, 06:00 PM
I agree that mystic theurge is still useful. You have dual casting, and with practiced spellcaster, full caster level for both of them. That results in, among other things, full BAB(using divine power), healing so that your cleric doesn't have to stick by the squishy caster, and the capability to be a one man army. You have a gazillion spells, and you''d really have to be trying to actually run out of spells in a day.

You don't get access to 9th level spells, but who cares? You get ultimate divine and arcane power... (well, unless you have ultimate magus for the arcane part.)

Innis Cabal
2007-05-01, 06:01 PM
with the above build you do gain 9th level spells...at 20th level

Ramza00
2007-05-01, 06:16 PM
IMO the best mystic theurge build is wizard 3/ druid 3/ mystic theurge 2/ arcane hierophant 10/ mystic theurge 2. You get 9th level spells on both sides, wild shape as a level 13 druid, animal companion/familiar at level 13 (you get to treat one animal as both your companion and familiar) casting in druid armor, and a few other abilities.

This is probably the best MT build without ur priest
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=801370


Click Spoiler for info


I agree with early entries that go against the RAI (or use lots of spat books) Fochlucan Lyrist can be pretty good. (More or less you have to be in FR but there are other tricks in the link below)

Bard 1/Archivist 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Bardic Music and Knowledge of 11th lvl Bard
Casts Archivist and Wizard at 18th lvl
15 BAB if using partials
Good Skillpoints (104+23*Int Skillpoints and since you have a high int due to casting=a lot of skillpoints)

Here is how you get into Fochlucan Lyrist easily
Bardic Tutealge (Region option for languages, you were raised in a bardic college/taught by a bard, allows you to get language druidic. Champions of Valor, preview of this option located here)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051104a
Get evasion by the Shadowalker template in Unapproachable East (+1LA buy it off if you can), or the shape soulmeld option
Take Able Learner at lvl 1 to keep your skills up
Take Improved Sigil (Krau) to get early entry (treat as many spells as you have sigils for as influenced by the heighten spell metamagic at no increase of casting time and it still occupies the old slot, thus 2nd lvl spells with the 1st lvl slot)

More ideas on early entry here.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=377248


Also forgot to mention
Since making a prepared spell list of both an Archivist and Wizard would be a headache, thus doing 2 spontaneous casters may be better in your mind such as the

Bard 1/Sorcerer 1/Shugenja 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 10


Just to compare the previous two builds and total number of spells vs the base class. Note if there is a "negative number" that means the base class has more spells of that level than the hybrid mystic theurge/Fochlucan Lyrist build, a positive numbe and the Fochlucan Lyrist has the more spells of that level

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1458/flyristty9.jpg

Ramza00
2007-05-01, 06:22 PM
practiced spell caster(Arcane) and (Divine) helps with DC's and things like that.
No cookie for you, Practiced Spellcaster does nothing about DCs it just does a +4 caster level boost up to your HD.

JaronK
2007-05-01, 06:28 PM
If Illumian cheese is to be allowed then so should Precocious Apprentice cheese. Seriously. Both are not intended to be used this way, but some DMs allow it.

Actually, PA was ruled by RAW not to work, because once you gain 2nd level spellcasting in any one class, your PA bonus switches to that class, thereby not fullfilling the MT requirements. Illumians have no such ruling.

You can also do early entry with Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, so a human with one flaw can do Arcane 1/Divine 1/MT10... I recommend Wizard/Archivist, but other options are out there.

Generally, the way to make MT good is to use fast progression PrCs such as Nar Daemonbinder, Sublime Chord, or Ur Priest, and then advance both sides that way. One example would be Cloistered Cleric 7/Human Paragon 3/SC 1/MT9, since that grants 9th level spells twice. Likewise, any build that ends with Ur Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/MT9 as the last 11 levels is going to work... though you'll be quite weak for your first 12 or so levels.

If you want a PrC of similar type that does work, try Anima Mage. Binder 1/Wizard 9/Anima Mage 10, for example, using Improved Binding to qualify for Anima Mage, grants 19 levels of Wizard casting, and thus doesn't suffer the usual "I'm unplayable for the first ten levels" problem, plus you're near full strength casting in the end. In addition, you get 5th or so level vestiges to bind, which can be quite handy.

JaronK

I_Got_This_Name
2007-05-01, 08:38 PM
I like the Ur Priest/Sublime Chord Theurge.

Starting at high levels is another nice way to make the Theurge useful.

BardicDuelist
2007-05-01, 09:30 PM
What book is PA in?

Stephen_E
2007-05-02, 06:20 AM
Wizards has ruled that Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for qualifying for PrCs, and if you read carefully, it doesn't work for Mystic Theurge anyway - it says when you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit of the feat and gain a 2nd-level slot that you can use as normal. However, it doesn't specify 2nd-level arcane spells, so basically, you'd become a 3rd-level cleric, and then lose the benefit of the feat. Thus, you'd no longer be able to cast any 2nd-level arcane spells, and would no longer qualify for Mystic Theurge.

2 points

1) I've seen many claim that Wizards have ruled against PA been used this way, but have never actually seen the ruling. The best I've seen is a statement by the writer that it wasn't how the feat was intended to work when he made it. Can you point to the Wizards ruling you're talking about.

2) PA talks about aracane spells. At know point does it switch to talking about Divine spells. Thus it is only when you gain the ability to cast 2nd level Arcane spells that you trigger the change in how the feat works. This is standard when Wizards is talking about spellcasting. They mention the type of spellcasting once or twice and then cease to specify because they've made clear which type of casting they're talking about.

And before anyone leaps to post in disagreement with me on point 2, I'll point out that if you do claim it's not so, then you're saying a 17th level Wizard/1st level Cleric can cast 9th level Divine spells using the spell slots from his Wizard levels. Aside from saying Wizards cast Arcane spells, they set no specifics regarding spell slots or anything else, so once he gains the ability to cast Divine spells from his level of Cleric, he can freely use those spell slots for any type of spell he likes.

Stephen

BardicDuelist
2007-05-02, 08:30 AM
Also, to make a useful mystic thurge...make a mystic thurge.

You are now a batman wizard with more hit points (from the cleric levels), some better fighting prowess (cleric again), and access to almost every spell in the PHB (and most other suppliments as well). Mystic thurge (or the similar psionic class, or the fochluchan (sp?) lyrist-- especially with the unarmored druid variant and ascetic mage) is a class made for powergamers (or wannabe powergamers). How could you go wrong with them?

If you want a MORE POWERFUL mystic thurge, well, then slap a divine rank 0 on any non caster and you will have an balanced party.

Armads
2007-05-02, 08:36 AM
I sense sarcasm. Or do you really believe what you are saying?

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-02, 08:42 AM
I sense sarcasm. Or do you really believe what you are saying?

Forgive him, for he knows not what he says.

Marius
2007-05-02, 08:58 AM
Also, to make a useful mystic thurge...make a mystic thurge.

You are now a batman wizard with more hit points (from the cleric levels), some better fighting prowess (cleric again), and access to almost every spell in the PHB (and most other suppliments as well). Mystic thurge (or the similar psionic class, or the fochluchan (sp?) lyrist-- especially with the unarmored druid variant and ascetic mage) is a class made for powergamers (or wannabe powergamers). How could you go wrong with them?

If you want a MORE POWERFUL mystic thurge, well, then slap a divine rank 0 on any non caster and you will have an balanced party.

Actually Mystic Theurges are more weak than a full wizard or a full cleric. You probably never tried one before.

Karellen
2007-05-02, 11:27 AM
Well... Mystic Theurge is nice and all, but if you want to do cheese, the way to go is the Fochlucan Lyrist, which does everything Mystic Theurge does except you're also a bad-ass in physical combat. Quite possibly the most openly broken Prestige Class ever. Redeems Bards in a way that shouldn't even be possible. Combine it with a smattering of Ur Priest and Sublime Chord and at level 20 you have 9th level arcane and divine magic, mostly d6 HD, something like a 15 BAB, the ability to cast spells in light metal armour, and you're Neutral Evil. Not that you'll need any of that due to your special ability to make any creature that comes within 20 feet make a saving throw against death from pure envy.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-02, 11:42 AM
I still like the Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 4. I also like Duskblade 5/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Duskblade +2.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-02, 01:09 PM
Also, to make a useful mystic thurge...make a mystic thurge.

You are now a batman wizard with more hit points (from the cleric levels), some better fighting prowess (cleric again), and access to almost every spell in the PHB (and most other suppliments as well). Mystic thurge (or the similar psionic class, or the fochluchan (sp?) lyrist-- especially with the unarmored druid variant and ascetic mage) is a class made for powergamers (or wannabe powergamers). How could you go wrong with them?

If you want a MORE POWERFUL mystic thurge, well, then slap a divine rank 0 on any non caster and you will have an balanced party.

Actually, you're quite in error; I surmise you've never witnessed one in a game. Even conceptually, however, the Mystic Theurge is quite lacking: Consider what it's like playing one at level 7: you have access to second-level spells, while your wizardly ally is hurling Confusions and Hastes and Slows around, and the party's cleric is invoking Divine Power and smiting everything in his path!

It continues on in this vein. A Mystic Theurge is two spell levels behind, half the time--secondary casting in no way compensates for this!

Latronis
2007-05-02, 01:13 PM
COnvince the DM to let you take it as a base class

Wizard\Archivist spellcasting

that'll make it useful

Ikkitosen
2007-05-02, 01:19 PM
Actually, you're quite in error; I surmise you've never witnessed one in a game. Even conceptually, however, the Mystic Theurge is quite lacking: Consider what it's like playing one at level 7: you have access to second-level spells, while your wizardly ally is hurling Confusions and Hastes and Slows around, and the party's cleric is invoking Divine Power and smiting everything in his path!

It continues on in this vein. A Mystic Theurge is two spell levels behind, half the time--secondary casting in no way compensates for this!

Indeed! Trouble is, what is a balanced number of caster levels to lose for gaining another casting class? 3 is clearly too many, and I think 1 may be too few (hence people calling Illumians or PA "cheese"). Anyone tried 2? Or an Ultimate Magus build using Practiced Spellcaster?

Kurobara
2007-05-02, 01:43 PM
Indeed! Trouble is, what is a balanced number of caster levels to lose for gaining another casting class? 3 is clearly too many, and I think 1 may be too few (hence people calling Illumians or PA "cheese"). Anyone tried 2? Or an Ultimate Magus build using Practiced Spellcaster?

It's not so much the fact that you're (and I mean a general "you") only losing one caster level that makes them cheese as that you're exploiting semi-loopholes.

Also, this thread is making me want to play a Focluchan Lyrist (which I'm pretty sure I spelled wrong, but I've never really looked hard at it and I'm away from books, too). I blame my recent love for bards, though, also.

Along similar lines, though, what are people's thoughts on the Walock/caster dual classes from Complete Mage? I've not looked hard at them, but I remember the Walock/Cleric one whose name I forget looking decent - only requires one level of Warlock to get in, and only loses one level of Cleric casting along the way, so at 20, you could have 11 levels of Warlock "casting" and 18 levels of Cleric casting.

Lapak
2007-05-02, 01:43 PM
I don't think the Theurge is at all overpowered, but I think saying it's not useful is going a bit far. Even an underpowered spellcaster is still a spellcaster; for utility and buffing spells they're a solid option. They're only non-useful in comparison to focused full casting classes.

Latronis
2007-05-02, 01:44 PM
Most standard Ultimate Magus builds lose lv 9 spells too, like say for something simple like Wizard 4\Sorc 1\UM 10\AM 5 with practiced spellcaster u got there 20 caster levels but you only have the spells of a lv 16 wizard.

Though i seem to recall reading about a way to get in without taking 2 caster classes when the excerpt first came out.

Latronis
2007-05-02, 01:49 PM
IMO the best mystic theurge build is wizard 3/ druid 3/ mystic theurge 2/ arcane hierophant 10/ mystic theurge 2. You get 9th level spells on both sides, wild shape as a level 13 druid, animal companion/familiar at level 13 (you get to treat one animal as both your companion and familiar) casting in druid armor, and a few other abilities.

With Natural Bond will that be enough to get me a dire-tiger?

BardicDuelist
2007-05-02, 02:11 PM
Actually Mystic Theurges are more weak than a full wizard or a full cleric. You probably never tried one before.

Actually I have, and I know they are weeker than full Wiz or full Clr, but they are still excellent in many ways. I wasn't being sarcastic, but just feel that this is a class which doesn't need to be optomized. It is very good, and probably the best way to multiclass a caster.

JaronK
2007-05-02, 02:11 PM
2 points

1) I've seen many claim that Wizards have ruled against PA been used this way, but have never actually seen the ruling. The best I've seen is a statement by the writer that it wasn't how the feat was intended to work when he made it. Can you point to the Wizards ruling you're talking about.

There was no ruling that said it can't qualify for PrCs. The author said it wasn't intended to. The ruling was in how it works when you get second level spells.


2) PA talks about aracane spells. At know point does it switch to talking about Divine spells. Thus it is only when you gain the ability to cast 2nd level Arcane spells that you trigger the change in how the feat works. This is standard when Wizards is talking about spellcasting. They mention the type of spellcasting once or twice and then cease to specify because they've made clear which type of casting they're talking about.

Read the feat over, and just analyze it by RAW. It says as soon as you gain the ability to cast second level spells (not second level arcane spells) you get a free spell slot to work with in the class that just gained second level spells. That is simply what the feat says.


And before anyone leaps to post in disagreement with me on point 2, I'll point out that if you do claim it's not so, then you're saying a 17th level Wizard/1st level Cleric can cast 9th level Divine spells using the spell slots from his Wizard levels. Aside from saying Wizards cast Arcane spells, they set no specifics regarding spell slots or anything else, so once he gains the ability to cast Divine spells from his level of Cleric, he can freely use those spell slots for any type of spell he likes.

Stephen

Except it doesn't work that way. Wizard spell slots never say they apply to cleric spells. The PA slot does say it becomes a spell slot of the first class that gets second level spells. Whether you think it should say that or not is irrelevent... RAW, that's what it does, and RAI, it can't qualify for PrCs anyway.

JaronK

BardicDuelist
2007-05-02, 02:14 PM
Actually Mystic Theurges are more weak than a full wizard or a full cleric. You probably never tried one before.

Actually I have, and I know they are weeker than full Wiz or full Clr, but they are still excellent in many ways. I wasn't being sarcastic, but just feel that this is a class which doesn't need to be optomized. It is very good, and probably the best way to multiclass a caster.

And I don't think it is overpowered, cheezy, or anything like that. I just don't see the need to optomize it.

Also, what book is PA in?

mikeejimbo
2007-05-02, 03:10 PM
If you can convince your DM to let you play Gestalt and not ban Mystic Theurge then...

You have an insane DM, for one.

Ramza00
2007-05-02, 03:18 PM
I still like the Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 4. I also like Duskblade 5/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Duskblade +2.
Note the Precocious Apprentice trick works with Noctumancer, 19th lvl Mysteries 17th lvl Wizard or Sorcerer casting at lvl 20.

Maerok
2007-05-02, 03:37 PM
Isn't there a feat which lets you prepare arcane spells in your divine slots (and vice versa) for one spell level lower or something along those lines?

kpenguin
2007-05-02, 03:45 PM
Play a cleric with the Magic domain and carry around a bunch of scrolls/wands/staffs of wizard spells. Take precocious apprentice.

Da Beast
2007-05-02, 04:06 PM
With Natural Bond will that be enough to get me a dire-tiger?

I think so. I'm away from my books at the moment and can't check though.


If you can convince your DM to let you play Gestalt and not ban Mystic Theurge then...

You have an insane DM, for one.

One time my DM didn't see the point in banning classes like that. After I built a wizard 3/ mystic theurge 7/ arcane hierophant 10 // druid 3/ ranger 17 he changed his mind.

I'd also just like to add that fochlucan lyrist sucks. It looks cheesy, but it doesn’t make up for how crappy you'll be after building a character that actually meats the entry requirements.

Ramza00
2007-05-02, 04:12 PM
I'd also just like to add that fochlucan lyrist sucks. It looks cheesy, but it doesn’t make up for how crappy you'll be after building a character that actually meats the entry requirements.
Agreed, F lyrist isn't that good, there are ways to enter it early, but even with some of them F lyrist still doesn't measure up. The build I listed is one of the few exceptions and even then you face the mystic theurge problem at all levels you are 2 spell levels behind a pure caster.

Meschaelene
2007-05-02, 04:42 PM
I've been working on a MT build that requires uses the "earth spell" cheese. In this particular case, I'm thinking archivist/wizzie:

Archivist1
Archivist1/Wiz1
Archivist1/Wiz1/whatever1 (gain earth spell)
Archivist1/Wiz1/whatever1/Mystic Theurge1
...
Archivist1/Wiz1/whatever1/Mystic Theurge10

(Whatever is likely archivist or wizard -- but really could be anything...)

My question is: What would you take at level 14?


Even if you would not accept the earth spell fun, the question just becomes "What would you take after wiz3/cleric3/MT10?"

Stephen_E
2007-05-02, 05:18 PM
There was no ruling that said it can't qualify for PrCs. The author said it wasn't intended to. The ruling was in how it works when you get second level spells.

OK. Can you point me to the ruling where it says PA works the way you say it does with 2nd level Divine spellcasting ability.


Read the feat over, and just analyze it by RAW. It says as soon as you gain the ability to cast second level spells (not second level arcane spells) you get a free spell slot to work with in the class that just gained second level spells. That is simply what the feat says.

I have read the feat several times. It talks about Arcane spellcasting and at no point does it mention Divine casting, therefore as per normal WOTC writing it is ONLY referring to arcane casting. That's simply how Wotc writes.



Except it doesn't work that way. Wizard spell slots never say they apply to cleric spells. The PA slot does say it becomes a spell slot of the first class that gets second level spells. Whether you think it should say that or not is irrelevent... RAW, that's what it does, and RAI, it can't qualify for PrCs anyway.

JaronK

Try reading what you just wrote. -
"Wizard spell slots can't be used for Divine spells because it doesn't say they can."

"2nd level Divine spellcasting cancels PA because it doesn't say they can't."

Now look at what I'm saying -
"Wizard spell slots can't be used for Divine spells because it doesn't say they can."

"2nd level Divine spellcasting don't cancel PA because it doesn't say they can."

You are choosing to read it one way to ban Wizard slots been used for Divine spells (correctly), and then reading the opposite way to disqualify PA. This isn't applying RAW, it's cherry picking to suit your argument. I'm reading it the same way both times. I repeat, can you actually point to a ruling that PA should be read this way (against the way Wotc normally writes).

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-05-02, 05:33 PM
With Natural Bond will that be enough to get me a dire-tiger?

This one is a bit dodgy.
The difficulty is that the PHB says you have a Druid level of 16 or higher to take a Dire Tiger.

Natural Bond says your effective Druid level increases by 3 for the purpose of bonus HD, tricks, special abilities and other bonuses that your animal companion receives. Note: It doesn't specify "for the purpose of selecting alternative companions".

On the otherhand Beastmaster also has a +3 bonus to her Druid level for the purpose of HD and other special abilities. The kicker is that when they give the example of how this works they specifically says it can be used for selecting an alternative animal companion "would be treated as a 10th lev druid for the purpose of improving the statistics of her animal companion (and which alternative animal companions she could select)".

This would suggest that Natural bond could/should be read the same way, but it isn't conclusive RAW.

Stephen

JaronK
2007-05-02, 06:46 PM
OK. Can you point me to the ruling where it says PA works the way you say it does with 2nd level Divine spellcasting ability.

I'm afraid I can't tell you where, but the feat itself says that. Read it over. The feat requires Arcane casting, but never actually mentions doing anything with Arcane casting. Improved Bull Rush requires Power Attack, but doesn't use it in the feat. Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise, but doesn't use it in the feat. The same is true for PA. Re-read the feat (pg. 181, Complete Arcane, for any lurkers). It just gives you a second level spell from any school you have access to. It never says that slot has to be arcane or divine, though unless you're playing Gestalt there's no way to have access to divine spells at that time (since you have to take it at level 1).




I have read the feat several times. It talks about Arcane spellcasting and at no point does it mention Divine casting, therefore as per normal WOTC writing it is ONLY referring to arcane casting. That's simply how Wotc writes.

See above... you're simply wrong. There are numerous feats where the prerequisit is never actually mentioned in what the feat does. Arcane casting is never once mentioned in the description of what the feat does... it's only mentioned in the prerequisits.

Now read the last full paragraph of the feat: "When you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would."

That right there is why PA doesn't work. If you were a Wizard 1 and took the feat, you'd get a free second level spell slot, which must be arcane only because that's all you have access to (which is a requirement in the feat). If you now become a Wizard 1/Cleric 3, that next paragraph kicks in... you lose the benefit before, and now gain an extra 2nd level spell slot... but that slot is for the class that can cast second level spells, i.e. the Cleric.


Try reading what you just wrote. -
"Wizard spell slots can't be used for Divine spells because it doesn't say they can."

More specifically, because Wizards cast arcane spells, as per their rules. Their spell slots are for their spells, which are found on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. So we've got a rule that they can only cast arcane spells off that list, and it never says they can cast divine spells.


"2nd level Divine spellcasting cancels PA because it doesn't say they can't."

2nd level Divine Spellcasting changes the PA benefit so that you gain a second level spell slot because that's what the feat says it does. That slot is from the class that triggered the change... the Cleric, in this case.


Now look at what I'm saying -
"Wizard spell slots can't be used for Divine spells because it doesn't say they can."

Again, it says they can only be used for Arcane spells, and never contradicts this.


"2nd level Divine spellcasting don't cancel PA because it doesn't say they can."

But it does say that, so you're wrong.


You are choosing to read it one way to ban Wizard slots been used for Divine spells (correctly), and then reading the opposite way to disqualify PA. This isn't applying RAW, it's cherry picking to suit your argument. I'm reading it the same way both times. I repeat, can you actually point to a ruling that PA should be read this way (against the way Wotc normally writes).

Read the feat. You're simply misreading the second paragraph of the feat. My arguement is this:

"Wizards can't cast divine spells because the rules say they cast arcane spells, not divine spells."

"2nd level divine casting changes the PA benefit, because the rules of the PA feat say that's what happens."

This really isn't very complicated.

JaronK

Ramza00
2007-05-02, 07:20 PM
Jaron K is right in this area.

Precocious Aprentice works with Eldritch Theurge, Cerebemancer, Anima Mage, Noctumancer, Soulcaster, Jade Phoenix Mage and similar "doubly classes." It does not work with Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant.

In sum it works with any doubly classes that has one side not be "spells" (such as psionics, warlock, binding, shadow mysteries, initiator, etc)

Precocious Apprentice does work with these spellcasting classes being the second side if you combine it with another feat. A cleric 3/Sorcerer 1 with Precocious Apprentice and Versatile Spellcaster works for you retain the 2nd lvl spell known with Precocious Apprentice and now can use 2 1st lvl spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster to cast said spell. Also works with Favored Soul 4/Sorcerer 1. Note though you have to be a spontaneous caster to take Versatile Spellcaster. Versatile Spellcaster is located in Races of the Dragon.

Stephen_E
2007-05-02, 08:01 PM
I'm afraid I can't tell you where, but the feat itself says that. Read it over.

So is that "I've seen the ruling but I can't currently find it", or is that "I haven't actually seen such a ruling but this is the way I and others rule it".




See above... you're simply wrong. There are numerous feats where the prerequisit is never actually mentioned in what the feat does. Arcane casting is never once mentioned in the description of what the feat does... it's only mentioned in the prerequisits.

Now read the last full paragraph of the feat: "When you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would."

That right there is why PA doesn't work. If you were a Wizard 1 and took the feat, you'd get a free second level spell slot, which must be arcane only because that's all you have access to (which is a requirement in the feat). If you now become a Wizard 1/Cleric 3, that next paragraph kicks in... you lose the benefit before, and now gain an extra 2nd level spell slot... but that slot is for the class that can cast second level spells, i.e. the Cleric.

So again we see selective assumption of "Arcane only" here, but not "arcane only" there. The feat doesn't specifically limit the 2nd level spell to arcane spells. It only limits the spell to one from a school of magic you have access to. Thus, using the interpretation you apply later in the feat description, a Wizard with access to the Evocation school of magic, would be able to take Flame Blade (a 2nd lev Druid Evocation spells) as his 2nd level spell.




Read the feat. You're simply misreading the second paragraph of the feat. My arguement is this:

"Wizards can't cast divine spells because the rules say they cast arcane spells, not divine spells."

"2nd level divine casting changes the PA benefit, because the rules of the PA feat say that's what happens."

This really isn't very complicated.

JaronK

The rules don't say that Wizards can't cast Divine spells. It just doesn't say they can.

The PA feat doesn't say "2nd level divine casting changes the PA benefit,". You are interpreting that from what it does say which is "When you become able to cast 2nd lev spells you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd lev spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd lev or lower as you normally would."

You're interpreting this as "cast 2nd lev spells" includes Divine spells, while claiming that the 2nd lev spell you get to cast at start must be Arcane, and that the 2nd lev spell slot which you were using to cast this arcane spell now becomes a spell slot for casting Divine spells, but Wizards who've gained Divine spellcasting can't use their spell slots for Divine spells because these spell slots are intended to be specific to Arcane spells, while the PA's 2nd lev spell slot isn't because you interpret it that way..

You're right, it's not complicated. You're reading the feat the same way as we all read the text on spellcasting except where doing otherwise limits the feat from been used in a way you don't think it should. I've done the same when I argued with someone that the MT preq required the ability to cast "Spells", plural , and the PA feat only gave you the ability to cast a "spell" singular (note this can be got around with a 2nd lev pearl of power). I did so as an excuse to deny the feat from been used that way. It wasn't because the RAW truly supported it. Wotc is traditionally pretty loose with its use of plural and singular, and as a rule you can assume they're interchangable unless they specifically indicate otherwise.

Stephen

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-02, 08:17 PM
Stephen, you're being a trifle... obstinate? What Jaron is arguing is simply what the feat says. When you gain the ability to cast second-level, it subsumes the Precocious Apprentice slot.

There no assuming it happens because it doesn't say it doesn't, here. It is very clear. Do you gain the ability to cast second-level spells? If so, it eats up Precocious Apprentice's slot... period. That is what the feat says. You are assuming that only gaining second-level arcane spells does this, even though that is not stated anywhere in the text of the feat.

Casting divine spells is still casting spells. I apologize, but your argument simply does not hold up--you are reading something into the text that just isn't there.

Stephen_E
2007-05-02, 08:20 PM
Interestingly enough lets look at how a MT using PA to meet their prereqs compares to a straight Wiz or straight Cleric.
A=Arcane, D=Divine
Lev/MT/Wiz/Cleric
L1-A2/A1/D1
L2-A2+D1/A1/D1
L3-A2+D1/A2/D2
L4-A2+D2/A2/D2
L5-A2+D2/A3/D3
L6-A2+D3/A3/D3
L7-A2+D3/A4/D4
L8-A3+D4/A4/D4
L9-A3+D4/A5/D5
L10-A4+D5/A5/D5
L11-A4+D5/A6/D6
L12-A5+D6/A6/D6
L13-A5+D6/A7/D7
L14-A6+D7/A7/D7

The MT compared to the Cleric has slightly worse divine casting than the Cleric, worse saves, poorer hps and Armour kills his arcane casting, but has significant Arcane casting. The MT also has little Turn ability.
The MT compared to the Wizard is 3 levs down on Arcane casting, but has almost full Divine casting and slightly more hps. He also misses out on feats.

In short, if the MT uses the PA feat as a prereq he become a competitive choice against pure Wiz or pure Cleric, but not a "why would you ever not take MT".

Stephen

Ramza00
2007-05-02, 08:32 PM
Fourth Tempter, mind finishing your sentence :)

Stephen_E
2007-05-02, 08:38 PM
Stephen, you're being a trifle... obstinate? What Jaron is arguing is simply what the feat says. When you gain the ability to cast second-level, it subsumes the Precocious Apprentice slot.

There no assuming it happens because it doesn't say it doesn't, here. It is very clear. Do you gain the ability to cast second-level spells? If so, it eats up Precocious Apprentice's slot... period. That is what the feat says. You are assuming that only gaining second-level arcane spells does this, even though that is not stated anywhere in the text of the feat.

Casting divine spells is still casting spells. I apologize, but your

Fourth Tempter,
Wotc writes in a certain way when writing about spellcasting.
We all seem to agree how to read what they say elsewhere, which is that when they're talking about Arcane or Divine, they continue to talk about Arcane or Divine until they make clear they're not.

Yet when we get to PA all these people suddenly want to read it differently. They say "it's been ruled that way", yet no one can come up with the ruling. They say "we must read the 5th sentance of the benefits description as standalone, but not the 1st and 2nd sentances, and not other writing in the PHB on Spellcasters".

So I ask why do you take a different approach to reading the rules in one place as compared to another place? The responces appear to range from "Because" to "The Emperor IS wearing clothes".

What can I say. I the obstinate child who keeps saying "but the Emperor doesn't have any clothes on".

Stephen

JaronK
2007-05-02, 08:54 PM
Stephen... you keep assuming that the feat only relates to Arcane spells. Out of curiosity, where in the feat's description of what it does (not in the prerequisits) does it ever mention Arcane vs Divine spells?

JaronK

Stephen_E
2007-05-02, 09:45 PM
Stephen... you keep assuming that the feat only relates to Arcane spells. Out of curiosity, where in the feat's description of what it does (not in the prerequisits) does it ever mention Arcane vs Divine spells?

JaronK

In prereq it says Arcane caster 1st lev, and in Special it say can only be taken as a 1st level spell, so Arcane casting is the only type of casting you can have. I'd also point out the entire section is called "Wizard Training"

I would also note that you also assume the feat only relates to Arcane spells, since you quite happily stated the 2nd level you get to cast must be Arcane.

Basically I can see only two approaches that make any sense.

1) Read the entire feat as only talking about Arcane spellcasting,

Or,

2) Read everything only within it's own context and ignore the general form of Wotc writing about spell casting.

If you take approach 1) then PA can be used as a prereq for MT.

If you take approach 2) then the PC gains a 2nd lev spell slot for a spell of their choice, Arcane or Divine, that is within a School of Magic they have access to (not a spell list they have access to). When you gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells of any sort you lose the ability to cast this spell, but retain the spell slot. Now even reading the feat only within internal context things get tricky here, since it doesn't state the spell slot changes type. You RETAIN the 2nd level spell slot.

Basically if you read the feat as one thing, not sentance by sentance, it simply doesn't make sense for Divine casting to effect the feat in any way.
The feat gives you the benefit that you gain a 2nd lev spell slot, and can cast a single 2nd lev spell with it after a DC 8 CL check. On gaining the ability to cast 2nd lev spells you retain the extra 2nd spell slot but lose all other "benefits" (the remaining "benefits" been that the slot can only be used for a single spell, and casting that spell requires a DC 8 caster check). Since we seem to agree that spell slot ARE specific to a type of magic, if it started an Arcane spell slot it must remain a Arcane spell slot, and you can use it to cast spells as you normally would. Since you can only cast spells with that spell slot normally if you've gained 2nd lev Arcane casting ability, surely only 2nd lev casting ability kicks in that effect. Duh.

Stephen

PS. Hands up anyone who thinks the Precocious Apprentice feat allows a 1st level Wizard to cast a 2nd level Divine spell.

Whamme
2007-05-02, 11:23 PM
Ignoring the debate...

Mystic Theurge needs two things:

1) More levels. It craps out once you have all ten levels.

2) Earlier Entry.

Now, how much earlier the entry should be is interesting.

I'd say a Mystic Theurge should always be full level of spells behind (because if at a given level they have all the spells of a Cleric AND a Wizard, well... NO. Classes should not be balanced every second level).

So at level 5 they should have 2nd level Cleric and Wizard spells. (Using Cleric and Wizard just as shorthand).

So, my requirements:

1st Level Arcane Spells
1st Level Divine Spells.

Class Features:
Level 1: Free Metamagic Feat
Level 2+: +1 level of Arcane Spellcasting, +1 level of Divine Spellcasting

So, typical progression:
Level 1: Some kind of caster
Level 2: Some other kind
Level 3: Mystic Theurge (no extra spells)
Level 4: Mystic Theurge (more spells, still 1st level)
Level 5: Mystic Theurge (2nd level spells!)
...
Level 19: Mystic Theurge (9th level spells!)
Level 20: Mystic Theurge

So an 18 level Prestige Class.

I'd probably also go for a d6 hit die, to compromise between d4 and d8.


I'd also include an official note that says "This class is not broken. It is no more powerful than it's constituent classes. Period, end of story."

Innis Cabal
2007-05-02, 11:26 PM
why not just make a class out of it if your going to be have a 19th level prestige class?

JaronK
2007-05-03, 01:36 AM
In prereq it says Arcane caster 1st lev, and in Special it say can only be taken as a 1st level spell, so Arcane casting is the only type of casting you can have. I'd also point out the entire section is called "Wizard Training"

I would also note that you also assume the feat only relates to Arcane spells, since you quite happily stated the 2nd level you get to cast must be Arcane.

It can only be taken as a first level feat, and you must be a first level arcane caster when you take it, so clearly the slot must be arcane if you're not a Gestalt character. If you are Gestalt, the slot can in fact be divine. But that's just the prerequisites. The point I was making was that in the description of what the feat itself does there is no mention of arcane or divine (hence the Gestalt character getting a divine spell if he's a Wizard//Cleric, for example).


Basically I can see only two approaches that make any sense.

1) Read the entire feat as only talking about Arcane spellcasting,

Or,

2) Read everything only within it's own context and ignore the general form of Wotc writing about spell casting.

Or 3) Read what is written. The prerequisite is arcane caster level 1. The feat itself gives an extra spell slot (untyped) which then becomes a second level spell slot for the first class that gains the ability to cast second level spells (untyped). That's what's actually written. Anything else is just stuff you're making up at this point. Again, feel free to point out where it ever says that second level slot has to be arcane... or any place outside of prerequisites where arcane or divine spells are even mentioned. Remeber, Combat Expertise is a Prereq for Improved Trip, but you can still Trip without using CE, because the actuall IT feat doesn't mention CE. It's just a prereq. Same deal here.


If you take approach 1) then PA can be used as a prereq for MT.

But you're not taking RAW. Instead, you're pretending that you know the Rules as Intended... when the writer has already stated that it wasn't intended to work that way. This stance is clearly wrong on RAW and RAI.


If you take approach 2) then the PC gains a 2nd lev spell slot for a spell of their choice, Arcane or Divine, that is within a School of Magic they have access to (not a spell list they have access to). When you gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells of any sort you lose the ability to cast this spell, but retain the spell slot. Now even reading the feat only within internal context things get tricky here, since it doesn't state the spell slot changes type. You RETAIN the 2nd level spell slot.

Basically if you read the feat as one thing, not sentance by sentance, it simply doesn't make sense for Divine casting to effect the feat in any way.

I read it section by section. You're the one pretending the prerequisites section somehow changes the section about what the feat actually does.


PS. Hands up anyone who thinks the Precocious Apprentice feat allows a 1st level Wizard to cast a 2nd level Divine spell.

*hand* But only if you're Gestalt. It needs to be something you already have access to at the time you take the feat.

JaronK

Latronis
2007-05-03, 02:02 PM
Problem with your version Whamme is its too easy to get into. And also a personal thing, i don't like weird levelled prcs.

I do something more like this:

Mystic Theurge

Hit Die: d4.

Prereqs:

Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.

Ability to cast 1st-level arcane and 1st level divine spells.

Class Skills: (unchanged)

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Base Attack Bonus: As Wizard

Fort Save: Poor
Ref Save: Poor
Will Save: Good

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: gains none, loses none.

lv01: +1 level of lower-level existing casting class
lv02: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class; +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class.
lv03: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class; +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class.
.
.
.
lv15: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class; +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class.

well actually i'd be inclined to give them some abilities to combine the spellcasting types but thats more work then i feel like doing at the moment.

TheLogman
2007-05-03, 04:54 PM
Don't know much about optimization, but this (http://www.nuklearpower.com/redmage22.php) has a take on the MT that incorporates an interesting class feature. If you don't feel like clicking the link, here is the stuff that is to be added to an MT. He gets everything normal plus these:

Class Features
Character Sheet: At first level the Red Mage starts to enter into a delusion that all his physical and mental attributes should be assigned a numerical value. He then records these on a sheet of paper and refers to it whenever making decisions. The Red Mage soon develops a familiar-style relationship with this paper and will suffer the same penalties as if his familiar died if the paper is ever destroyed. The paper looks just like your character sheet and has all the same numbers, items, facts, etc. written down on it.

Stat Swap: Starting at first level the red mage can start swapping the numerical values on his character sheet. So powerful is his delusion that these numbers have any meaning that he will actually take on the characteristics of that rearrangement, almost as though they did have some sort of effect on him. He can only switch two values and the switch will only last for one hour before he feels compelled to switch them back lest the “Dee'M” catches him. (The red mage also believes that an omnipresent force known as the “Dee'M” rules over his life.)

Props to the guys at 8-Bit theater for this funny/interesting/maybe useful to you stuff.

In retrospect, the swap should probably take like a minute, and assume the when they say swapping, they mean inside the same group, i.e. No swapping your +28 to spot with your strength score, no giving the 17 of your wisdom to your reflex save to dodge a fireball, etc.

Stephen_E
2007-05-03, 08:58 PM
It can only be taken as a first level feat, and you must be a first level arcane caster when you take it, so clearly the slot must be arcane if you're not a Gestalt character. If you are Gestalt, the slot can in fact be divine. But that's just the prerequisites. The point I was making was that in the description of what the feat itself does there is no mention of arcane or divine (hence the Gestalt character getting a divine spell if he's a Wizard//Cleric, for example).

Your statement is true ONLY if you're reading it the way I am. If you take the feat as RAW, which you keep pretending you are, then no, you're wrong. As per RAW the feat merely says the 2nd lev spell has to be from a School of magic you have access to, not a spell list or magic type. If you have access to evocation you can take ANY 2nd lev Evocation spell, be it Divine or Arcane, without requiring any Gesalt weirdness. That's the RAW.



Or 3) Read what is written. The prerequisite is arcane caster level 1. The feat itself gives an extra spell slot (untyped) which then becomes a second level spell slot for the first class that gains the ability to cast second level spells (untyped). That's what's actually written. Anything else is just stuff you're making up at this point. Again, feel free to point out where it ever says that second level slot has to be arcane... or any place outside of prerequisites where arcane or divine spells are even mentioned. Remeber, Combat Expertise is a Prereq for Improved Trip, but you can still Trip without using CE, because the actuall IT feat doesn't mention CE. It's just a prereq. Same deal here.

Again you claim to be taking the feat as RAW when you aren't. But 1st, you refer to the spell slot as untyped. Does this mean you've changed your mind about a high level Wiz who gains the ability to cast Divine spells been able to use the equally untyped spell slots from his Wiz levs to cast Divine spells? Or is it just this feat we're supposed to read this way, and not the class descriptions in the PHB. The feat gives you a extra 2nd lev spell slot which can only be used for one spell, and requires a DC8 caster lev check to cast. On gaining the ability to cast 2nd lev spells (technically you already have, but lets assume they're talking about another source, even though it isn't RAW to make this assumption) you retain the spell slot, but are no longer restricted to casting the 1 spell from it, and no longer have to make a caster lev check. Nothing about the spell slot attaching itself to whichever class you got your 2nd lev casting from. This is more assuming on your part. As for comparing with other feats. Find feats that have " Arcane caster level "x" " as a prereq and is talking about spellcasting and you might actually have a useful point.


But you're not taking RAW. Instead, you're pretending that you know the Rules as Intended... when the writer has already stated that it wasn't intended to work that way. This stance is clearly wrong on RAW and RAI.

No, I'm not taking RAW, just like you're not taking RAW. The difference is that I don't pretend to be taking RAW, and I say why I'm not taking RAW. Namely that I'm reading the feat the way Wotc has talked about spellcasting in other places such as the PHB. The writer TTBOMK didn't state that the feat wasn't intended to work that way. What he said was that he hadn't intended it to be used for that purpose. A very different thing. He also said that he'd see whether they'd make a ruling against it (which TTBOMK has never happened) which would suggest that he did intend the feat to work that way, otherwise he could've said "no it doesn't work, because the feat doesn't work that way". He didn't.



I read it section by section. You're the one pretending the prerequisites section somehow changes the section about what the feat actually does.

Actually you have as well "It can only be taken as a first level feat, and you must be a first level arcane caster when you take it, so clearly the slot must be arcane if you're not a Gestalt character." but again, I'm admitting to doing so. I simply saying the feat must be read as a whole, and that the prereq and the "special" section indicate that this is all about Arcane casting. You are doing the same thing for the 1st part of the feat, but not the 2nd.




Quote:
PS. Hands up anyone who thinks the Precocious Apprentice feat allows a 1st level Wizard to cast a 2nd level Divine spell.


*hand* But only if you're Gestalt. It needs to be something you already have access to at the time you take the feat.

JaronK

So again you show that you don't take the feat as RAW since as I pointed out the feat as RAW requires no such weirdness as Gesalt to allow a Divine spell to be chosen. In short your answer is "No, I don't takle the feat as RAW".

Stephen

JaronK
2007-05-03, 10:02 PM
Stephen... go over to the Char Op boards, and read the 10 or so threads on this very subject. If that doesn't convince you, so be it. I'm tired of argueing with a brick wall.

For others who want to be an MT without being gimped, just play an Archivist. You get almost every spell out there, and with a little Warlock cohort cheese you can actually get every spell in existance, and you don't stink.

JaronK

Stephen_E
2007-05-03, 10:44 PM
Stephen... go over to the Char Op boards, and read the 10 or so threads on this very subject. If that doesn't convince you, so be it. I'm tired of argueing with a brick wall.
.

JaronK

Jaron, if numbers = correct, slavery would still be normal.
I'll go have a look, but if it's more people using the same arguments as you, they'll still be wrong. I've never been there, but the person I know best who goes there has never impressed me much with his knowledge of DnD rules.

Stephen

JaronK
2007-05-04, 12:29 AM
Great, now you're bringing in slavery? What's next, Nazis? Number of people believing a thing often does indicate correctness when we're talking about interpretation of data. This is not a debate of morals or other subjective things.

JaronK

Latronis
2007-05-04, 12:42 AM
Stephen how many individual voice have proven to be correct againest the vast majority?

chances are you are wrong

Stephen_E
2007-05-04, 01:09 AM
Stephen how many individual voice have proven to be correct againest the vast majority?

chances are you are wrong

It depends on why they're disagreeing. When the majority is producing a consistent argument that stands by its own merits, the odds are poor for the minority voice. Fortunately this isn't the case so far.

So I guess my chances are decent.:smallwink:

The other question is how often is the majority voice proven to be right? Answer, rare. Ussually there is a individual voice out there with an answer that is, at the very least better, if not outright "correct".

Stephen

Toliudar
2007-05-04, 01:17 AM
Returning to the OP, a situational note that makes a relatively straightforward wizard/Ur-Priest/MT quite workable at mid-levels: be the only party member with prepared spells. I'm in a great game with a swordsage, a face-focused bard, two warlocks and a psion. Everyone else is much better at what they do than my little MT, but he's the swiss army knife who fills in the gaps. I don't overshadow, but have a role.

Latronis
2007-05-04, 01:18 AM
well in this case the majority is arguing a verisimilitude in wotc writing of rules.....

Your are reading it in way that makes sense sure, but not in the way wotc writes out the rules.

Stephen_E
2007-05-04, 01:46 AM
well in this case the majority is arguing a verisimilitude in wotc writing of rules.....

Your are reading it in way that makes sense sure, but not in the way wotc writes out the rules.

I'm actually making my argument based on how Wotc has written other rules regarding spellcasting, and it is reasonably consistient That doesn't make me right, and it doesn't make JaronK or you wrong, but it does mean that if you're right it has little to do with the strength of your arguments.

It should also be noted that the "majority" doesn't appear to be much of a majority. The bulk of people seem to fit more in the "Whatever" box, with a large chunk in the "someone said there's a ruling, so I guess that's it" subset. The only mention I've found in the Char Op so far is a "Some people say you can't use it this way because" which isn't exactly an enthusiastic "that's the rule".

Stephen

Tellah
2007-05-04, 02:02 AM
For those who don't actually own Complete Arcane, Wizards has the feat description for Precocious Apprentice up on the web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a). It's about halfway down the page. For those who do own Complete Arcane, it's on page 181.

I believe it's poorly worded and needs official clarification, but people writing for Wizards sometimes write imprecisely and it's not stopped me from opining before. I very much doubt that Rich Baker took multi-classing into account when he wrote the feat, and didn't expect the slot to be used for a divine spell. As-written, however, it doesn't differentiate between arcane and divine spells beyond the initial pre-requisites. When a Wizard 1/Archivist 2 levels up to Archivist 3, he "becomes able to cast 2nd-level spells." "2nd-level spells," without qualifier for type. This precipitates the loss of the previous paragraph's abilities.

Really, it's an awful feat that Mr. Baker probably regrets setting to ink, both for its clunky mechanics and for its imprecise wording. Let's all pretend it was never printed, tear out page 181 of Complete Arcane, and tuck it inside the front cover of Complete Psionic, there to yellow and gather dust as happy years go by without a thought to its precise wording.

Stephen_E
2007-05-04, 02:47 AM
I did see a MT build over in Char Op today that, IIRC, used 1 Wizard (Precocious Apprentice), 2 Cloistered Cleric (Divine Metamagic, Highten spell) to meet the prereqs and allow you to enter the MT class at level 4.

Stephen

PS. In regard to PA I really would like to sit down with Mr Baker and ask him what he actually expected people to use the feat for? Aside from fast/easy entry into MT like prestige classes, or the, of dubiously leagality, ability to gain a 2nd lev Divine spell, I'm at loss why a Wizard/Sorceror would waste a feat on it. Is it for Camapigns that never go past 5th level or something?

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-04, 02:52 AM
Wait. What's the problem with Precocious Apprentice? I've just looked at the link, and basically, once you "can cast 2nd level spells", it turns into a "2nd level spell slot, that you can use to prepare 2nd level or lower spells as normal." So effectively, even though you don't know any 2nd level spells, you can have 1 level of Wizard throughout your life, but technically qualify for anything that requires you to "be able to prepare 2nd level spells". O_o

I know that's not how CustServ rules it, but that's exactly the way I see it, RAW.

JaronK
2007-05-04, 03:31 AM
Atomic: the issue is that you must be able to cast both second level divine spells and second level arcane spells. When you're a Wiz 1 with PA, you can cast second level arcane spells. Now you take three levels of Cleric to get the divine part... but since you instantly lose the old benefit of PA (a second level arcane spell) and now have instead a second level slot as a cleric, you no longer have 2nd level arcane spells to cast, so you can't get into MT.

This is why you need Earth Spell or Easy Metamagic: Heighten Spell for early entry into MT, instead of PA.

JaronK

JaronK
2007-05-04, 03:38 AM
I did see a MT build over in Char Op today that, IIRC, used 1 Wizard (Precocious Apprentice), 2 Cloistered Cleric (Divine Metamagic, Highten spell) to meet the prereqs and allow you to enter the MT class at level 4.

Stephen

Today? I was browsing those boards all day and didn't see any such thing. There's one that used the feat that gives +4 to caster level, but nothing with PA that I saw...


PS. In regard to PA I really would like to sit down with Mr Baker and ask him what he actually expected people to use the feat for? Aside from fast/easy entry into MT like prestige classes, or the, of dubiously leagality, ability to gain a 2nd lev Divine spell, I'm at loss why a Wizard/Sorceror would waste a feat on it. Is it for Camapigns that never go past 5th level or something?

I would assume so. All I've seen is that he didn't intend for it to be used for early entry into PrCs, so I guess he just thought a feat to make you stronger in the very early levels was a good plan. And you know, with retraining, it might well be.

JaronK

Stephen_E
2007-05-04, 05:25 AM
I was thinking that a reworked Precocious Apprentice could be used to make Mystic Theurge a workable caster option for LA adjusted races (This is for those like me who consider LA a killer for pure casters).

Precocious Apprentice:-
You have shown an aptitude for magic that has allowed you to develop abilities beyond that of your peers, to even tap in a small way to the energies of divine magic.
Prereqs: Spell casting ability (Cha or Int) 15, arcane caster lev 1st.
Benefit: Choose 1 spell of a level one higher than you can currently cast of that type (arcane or divine) and of a school of magic you have access to. You gain a spell slot of the level and type of the spell you chose. You can prepare this slot at the same time as you do your other spell prep, even if you don't normally prepare spells of this type, and cast it by making a DC 8 caster lev check. If you have no CL in that spell type your CL is treated as 0.
If your lev increase to the point that you can cast the chosen spell normally you can increase the spell slot level by 1 (to a max of your lev adjustment +1) and choose a new spell of the same type and of a school of magic you have access to. When you can no longer increase the bonus spell slot it becomes a simple additional spell slot of the chosen type and is used to cast spells normally.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, up to a max = to your lev adj. You can only take this feat if you have taken no other feats.

This would allow something like a Pixie to be a decent pure caster.
My example spaces the "lev adj" to make a balanced leveling up.
1st, Wizard 1, Precocious Apprentice, 2nd Arcane spells.
2nd, 1 lev adj, 2nd Arcane spells
3rd, 1st Cleric, 2nd Arcane, 1st Divine
4th, 2 lev adj, 2nd Arcane, 1st Divine
5th, 2nd Cleric, Precocious Apprentice, 2nd Arcane, 2nd Divine
6th, 3 lev adj, 2nd Arcane, 2nd Divine
7th, 1st Mystic Theurge, 2nd Arcane, 3rd Divine
8th, 4 lev adj, 2nd Arcane, 3rd Divine
9th, 2nd MT, 3rd Arcane, 3rd Divine
10th, 3rd MT, 3rd Arcane, 4th Divine
11th, 4th MT, 4th Arcane, 4th Divine
12th, 5th MT, 4th Arcane, 5th Divine (at this point the PA you used for a divine spell slot become a simple additional 5th lev divine slot)
13th, 6th MT, 5th Arcane, 5th Divine (at this point the PA you used for a arcane spell slot become a simple additional 5th lev arcane slot)
14th, 7th MT, 5th Arcane, 5th Divine

When the effect of having both Arcane and Divine spells combined with the +6 Int and 4 Wis Pixies get, and that you're getting close to the 1st lev adj buy off, you have something that can foot it at a useful level as a caster for at least the 1st 14 levels. And while it doesn't have quite the power of a straight standard race mage or Cleric, it probably has more versatility.

Stephen

UserClone
2007-05-04, 07:10 AM
There is a very simple reason PA doesn't allow PrC access. It is RAW, and has nothing to do with Divine magic at all. The prereq states you must have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spellS. Plural. The only way to gain access to more than one spell (known) of 2nd level is by way of class levels in an arcane casting class.

BTW, my idea of the worst possible build for MT would be straight Savant=P

*Also, Unless your DM doesn't have a copy of the DMG, there is no reason that casting a hieghtened 0 or 1st level spell (with divine metamagic or otherwise) is going to get you MT. 5th is the lowest allowable level for PrCs. It is in the chapter in which they describe the "Standard" PrCs.

Darrin
2007-05-04, 08:13 AM
There is a very simple reason PA doesn't allow PrC access. It is RAW, and has nothing to do with Divine magic at all. The prereq states you must have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spellS. Plural. The only way to gain access to more than one spell (known) of 2nd level is by way of class levels in an arcane casting class.

That's a B.S. argument. There are other instances where an arcane caster might only know one 2nd level spell (such as a 4th level Battle Sorcerer), but they've never been barred from PrCs that require 2nd level spells. Even if you only know one 2nd level spell, there are many ways to cast it more than once:

1) Use PA to cast a 2nd level spell on Monday. Wait until Tuesday. Cast it again. I have cast multiple, as in plural, 2nd level spells on multiple occasions.
2) Use PA to cast a 2nd level spell. Write it on a scroll. Cast it again from the scroll.
3) Use PA to cast a 2nd level spell. Use a spell-trigger item or Pearl of Power to cast it again.
4) If you're using action points, spend one to use PA again.

The plural argument can be easily circumvented. Until WotC gets around to issuing some official errata, PA should work for qualifying for PrCs that require 2nd level spells.

JaronK
2007-05-04, 02:37 PM
There is a very simple reason PA doesn't allow PrC access. It is RAW, and has nothing to do with Divine magic at all. The prereq states you must have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spellS. Plural. The only way to gain access to more than one spell (known) of 2nd level is by way of class levels in an arcane casting class.

Even though I know PA can't be used to qualify for MT, this arguement is simply false. He can cast the same spell multiple times... he just needs a 24 hour turn around. If you've been hit by two fireballs, that's two spells that just smacked you in the face.


*Also, Unless your DM doesn't have a copy of the DMG, there is no reason that casting a hieghtened 0 or 1st level spell (with divine metamagic or otherwise) is going to get you MT. 5th is the lowest allowable level for PrCs. It is in the chapter in which they describe the "Standard" PrCs.

Also false. There are numerous early entry PrCs... Stoneblessed, for example, can be entered at level 2 I believe. Can't Bloodhound likewise be entered very early? And Anima Mage is easy to get into at level 4 using Improved Binding or PA, your choice (since the second clause doesn't factor in in this case). Survivor can be entered at level 2 using, get this, commoner 1. Just because most PrCs can't be entered before 5 doesn't mean all of them can't.

JaronK

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-04, 06:27 PM
Mystic Theurges have lots of uses. With a little oil and flint, you can have a great distraction. They're also worth at least three days rations for a party of five. They make wonderful sacrifices to the devils that accept that sort of thing. Also, every dead body is an asset to an entrepeneuring necromancer.

Stephen_E
2007-05-04, 06:45 PM
Re: Early entry into prestige classes: The DMG reccommends when designing prestige classes that you not be able to enter into them before 6th level.
There are official prestige classes that you can enter before 6th level, and if you can circumvent prereqs designed to stop you entering before lev 6, it is perfectly legal to enter them earlier.

Of course this is provided your GM agrees, since the GM has final word on all prestige classes.

Stephen

JaronK
2007-05-04, 07:09 PM
And, more to the point, there are official PrCs that can be entered without early entry tricks as early as level 2. The level 6 thing is a suggestion, not a rule.

JaronK

Stephen_E
2007-05-04, 07:27 PM
JaronK,
I asked the RAW thread to do a RAW analyse of the Precocious Apprentice feat. Interesting reading.

Stephen

JaronK
2007-05-04, 07:32 PM
Where? I didn't see it.

JaronK

JaronK
2007-05-04, 07:35 PM
Ah, found it. And that was extreamly deceptive of you Stephen. You tried to make it sound like you were using an exploit by taking a divine spell with it, instead of telling the truth to the people in that thread (namely, that you wanted to do early entry into MT by ignoring the second paragraph restriction).

If you want a true answer, you have to just ask the question. Going through those hoops to decieve the people you ask is just admitting that you're trying to pull one over on people.

JaronK

Stephen_E
2007-05-04, 08:46 PM
Ah, found it. And that was extreamly deceptive of you Stephen. You tried to make it sound like you were using an exploit by taking a divine spell with it, instead of telling the truth to the people in that thread (namely, that you wanted to do early entry into MT by ignoring the second paragraph restriction).

If you want a true answer, you have to just ask the question. Going through those hoops to decieve the people you ask is just admitting that you're trying to pull one over on people.

JaronK


JaronK,I wasn't been deceitful. You misundertand my position.
As per RAW the feat probably doesn't allow you to use it to enter MT (unless you use a Heighten spell effect on the Divine side). I say probably because one poster did make a point regarding the last sentance referring to an earlier one. Before that I would've said defintely.

My point is that no one uses the feat as RAW because it doesn't work RAW. To test this I wanted to see how people thought the feat worked RAW. I think it's fair to say all 3 respondents thought is was a very poorly written feat, but none read it as working the way you interpreted it (The entire feat, not just the part crucial to MT usage).

That you think I was been decietful suggests you never understood my posts.
What I was saying was that neither you nor I was talking about using the feat as RAW. Then it simply becomes a question of "how do people choose to houserule/interpret it". You're entitled to your houserule/interpretation, so long as you don't claim it's RAW, and it's only RAW if you treat the entire feat as RAW.

Stephen

jjpickar
2007-05-04, 10:41 PM
(ignores the argument raging in the background)

I think the MT could be greatly improved if it granted some special ability in addition to both spell progressions. Final Fantasy's Red Mage double cast might be a bit broken but then again it might not be.

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-05, 06:20 PM
If you go wizard 3/ archivist 3/ Mystic Theurge 10, what do you do after level 16?

JaronK
2007-05-05, 06:38 PM
Well, you have some options. One is to make sure you qualify for Arcane Heirophant and take the next few levels of that. Another is to just drop Archivist and take Wizard the rest of the way (or the other way around).

JaronK

Tellah
2007-05-05, 10:11 PM
(ignores the argument raging in the background)

I think the MT could be greatly improved if it granted some special ability in addition to both spell progressions. Final Fantasy's Red Mage double cast might be a bit broken but then again it might not be.

Sudden Quicken would be a pretty fair way to emulate that. It would be a nice feature to plug in around level 7 or 8 of the PrC. If I were to go about altering the class, I'd give them a few abilities they can use by blowing spell slots, since they have so darn many of them. A degree of interoperability between the two sides' spell slots might help, although the player would almost certainly choose to fill as many divine slots as he could with arcane spells, given the opportunity.

My beef with the class, mechanically, is that it's far too neat. It has no weird abilities that are useful maybe once per campaign, like the Druid's Resist Nature's Lure. I'd like to see the Mystic Theurge gain a few piddly little abilities that are totally unrelated to being an extremely versatile caster. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Double-bladed Sword at third level. +2 bonus to Appraise checks at fourth level. Familiar gains the celestial template at seventh level. As-is, it doesn't have the messy weirdness that I demand from D&D; it's too straightforward.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-05, 11:31 PM
My beef with the class, mechanically, is that it's far too neat. It has no weird abilities that are useful maybe once per campaign, like the Druid's Resist Nature's Lure. I'd like to see the Mystic Theurge gain a few piddly little abilities that are totally unrelated to being an extremely versatile caster. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Double-bladed Sword at third level. +2 bonus to Appraise checks at fourth level. Familiar gains the celestial template at seventh level. As-is, it doesn't have the messy weirdness that I demand from D&D; it's too straightforward.

Mystic Theurge was the first. Since then, they've learned somewhat. I'd probably mix Theurge with Geomancer, features-wise, and it would be better than the whole(meaning it will be marginally more playable. :smallyuk: )